How do you explain a Trump presidency to your kids?

[MaryAnn]

Hopefully, everyone has read the redacted affidavit. Life-and-death national security documents were thrown in boxes with random newspaper clippings.

It must be said. The former President is a doofus.

Republicans are going to have to decide if they want to have a doofus in control of their party.

[Mike C]

Please ignore the forum fascist Trump lover's parroting of Fox "News" talking points. He is, as he always, defending the indefensible.

Trump stole these HIGHLY SENSITIVE documents because he needs money. Hundreds of millions of dollars in loans are coming due in the next year, and this fake billionaire will be in dire straits without the $$$ such information would bring to the various enemies of the United States.

The man is a traitor, the first seditious president, and I look forward to his indictment (finally) on this latest series of crimes.

And you have your law degree from where?

Wow, that is quite the conspiracy theory you have going? Can you support that with any facts from redacted affidavit?

That's right, the Department of Injustice blacked out nearly every item of the attachment to the warrant claiming they need to maintain secrecy. Yet, someone from the department keeps providing selective leaks to their house media organs (the Times and the Washington Post) in violation of the law. Why? If their case is the slam dunk the media keeps saying it is -- and they have evidence of Trump''s traitorous actions -- just indict him now!

No, I don't watch a whole lot of Fox News. But I read lots of interesting articles.

Doc, I thought you care about democracy and civil liberties. If so, then care to explain how you can support the use of a "general warrant" which is explicitly forbidden by the 4th Amendment?

[drjohncarpenter]

Hopefully, everyone has read the redacted affidavit. Life-and-death national security documents were thrown in boxes with random newspaper clippings.

It must be said. The former President is a doofus.

Republicans are going to have to decide if they want to have a doofus in control of their party.

Couldn't disagree more strongly with your framing of the FPOTUS behavior.

He STOLE highly-classified documents. It was not a "doofus" who didn't know what he was doing. It was willful. He defied a subpoena. He had his lawyer sign off that everything was returned. Everything was not returned. They moved boxes in and out of the Florida basement after the so-called return of "everything." The withheld files were found stashed in various places in the building during the court-approved search.

These thefts were meant to be secrets sold to the highest bidder. America has been put in grave danger.

We are going to find out very soon this whole thing is very, very bad.

[BrianTCB]

Hopefully, everyone has read the redacted affidavit. Life-and-death national security documents were thrown in boxes with random newspaper clippings.

It must be said. The former President is a doofus.

Republicans are going to have to decide if they want to have a doofus in control of their party.

Couldn't disagree more strongly with your framing of the FPOTUS behavior.

He STOLE highly-classified documents. It was not a "doofus" who didn't know what he was doing. It was willful. He defied a subpoena. He had his lawyer sign off that everything was returned. Everything was not returned. They moved boxes in and out of the Florida basement after the so-called return of "everything." The withheld files were found stashed in various places in the building during the court-approved search.

These thefts were meant to be secrets sold to the highest bidder. America has been put in grave danger.

We are going to find out very soon this whole thing is very, very bad.

I agree with you wholeheartedly, Doc. It's only going to get way worse.

[BrianTCB]

[BrianTCB]

Yep. Gonna get much worse.

[mike edwards66]

Hopefully, everyone has read the redacted affidavit. Life-and-death national security documents were thrown in boxes with random newspaper clippings.

It must be said. The former President is a doofus.

Republicans are going to have to decide if they want to have a doofus in control of their party.

In essence you are dead right. What we have here is a simple processing error. Someone other that Trump must have packed those boxes when getting ready to leave the WH, clearly just grabbing whatever they thought they should, including newspapers and magazines. With the best will, Trump would have gotten round to sorting through them eventually, then returned whatever needed returning.

These thefts were meant to be secrets sold to the highest bidder.

Ha! Citation needed.

[G.I. Blues]

In essence you are dead right. What we have here is a simple processing error. Someone other that Trump must have packed those boxes when getting ready to leave the WH, clearly just grabbing whatever they thought they should, including newspapers and magazines. With the best will, Trump would have gotten round to sorting through them eventually, then returned whatever needed returning.

Yup, that sounds completely correct to me!
A stack of magazines and newspapers and every now and then some top secret documents in between.
Sh*t happens and it wasn't even his fault, because some sloppy employee packed the documents and magazines.

Maybe you can also explain to us, why such kind of documents were lying around in the first instance when someone packed his stuff.

[BrianTCB]

In essence you are dead right. What we have here is a simple processing error. Someone other that Trump must have packed those boxes when getting ready to leave the WH, clearly just grabbing whatever they thought they should, including newspapers and magazines. With the best will, Trump would have gotten round to sorting through them eventually, then returned whatever needed returning.

Yup, that sounds completely correct to me!
A stack of magazines and newspapers and every now and then some top secret documents in between.
Sh*t happens and it wasn't even his fault, because some sloppy employee packed the documents and magazines.

Maybe you can also explain to us, why such kind of documents were lying around in the first instance when someone packed his stuff.

Maybe Mike would like to also explain why TFG's personal notes were on the documents as well...

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/live/2022/aug/26/trump-affidavit-fbi-biden-abortion-student-loan-latest-updates

“From May 16-18, 2022, FBI agents conducted a preliminary review of the FIFTEEN BOXES provided to NARA and identified documents with classification markings in fourteen of the FIFTEEN BOXES. A preliminary triage of the documents with classification markings revealed the following approximate numbers: 184 unique documents bearing classification markings, including 67 documents marked as CONFIDENTIAL, 92 documents marked as SECRET, and 25 documents marked as TOP SECRET. Further, the FBI agents observed markings reflecting the following compartments/dissemination controls: HCS, FISA, ORCON, NOFORN, and SI.

“Based on my training and experience, I know that documents classified at these levels typically contain NDI. Several of the documents also contained what appears to be FPOTUS’s [Trump’s] handwritten notes.

Maybe Mike would also like to explain why TFG held back the documents when the National Archives came to get them...

https://www.rawstory.com/trump-300-classified-documents/

"In total, the government has recovered more than 300 documents with classified markings from Mr. Trump since he left office, the people said: that first batch of documents returned in January, another set provided by Mr. Trump’s aides to the Justice Department in June and the material seized by the F.B.I. in the search this month," said the report.

Maybe Mike would also like to explain why TFG's attorney lied about the documents all being returned when they were not...

https://www.rawstory.com/trump-300-classified-documents/

"Trump lawyer Evan Corcoran then drafted a statement, which [Christina] Bobb, who is said to be the custodian of the documents, signed," she also wrote. "It asserted that, to the best of her knowledge, all classified material that was there had been returned, according to two people familiar with the statement."

Maybe Mike would also like to explain why TFG's constant lies about the documents also continued to shift and change depending on the day:

Trump’s Shifting Explanations Follow a Familiar Playbook

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/08/14/us/politics/trump-documents-explanations.html

First he said that he was “working and cooperating with” government agents who he claimed had inappropriately entered his home. Then, when the government revealed that the F.B.I., during its search, had recovered nearly a dozen sets of documents that were marked classified, he suggested the agents had planted evidence.

Finally, his aides claimed he had a “standing order” to declassify documents that left the Oval Office for his residence, and that some of the material was protected by attorney-client and executive privilege.

Those are the ever-shifting explanations that former President Donald J. Trump and his aides have given regarding what F.B.I. agents found last week in a search of his residence at Mar-a-Lago in Palm Beach, Fla.

Mr. Trump and his allies have cast the search as a partisan assault while amplifying conflicting arguments about the handling of sensitive documents and failing to answer a question at the center of the federal investigation: Why was he keeping documents, some still marked classified, at an unsecured Florida resort when officials had sought for a year to retrieve them?

The often contradictory and unsupported defenses perpetuated by Mr. Trump and his team since the F.B.I. search follow a familiar playbook of the former president’s. He has used it over decades but most visibly when he was faced with the investigation into whether his campaign in 2016 conspired with Russians and during his first impeachment trial.

In both instances, he claimed victimization and mixed some facts with a blizzard of misleading statements or falsehoods. His lawyers denied that he had tied his administration’s withholding of vital military aid to Ukraine to Mr. Trump’s desire for investigations into Joseph R. Biden Jr. and his son, Hunter Biden.

When information contradicting that defense emerged in a forthcoming book by Mr. Trump’s former national security adviser, John R. Bolton, Mr. Trump’s lawyers switched to insisting that he hadn’t connected the aid to the investigations, but that if he had, it wouldn’t have been an impeachable offense.

Of the multiple investigations Mr. Trump currently faces — including a state inquiry in Georgia and two federal grand jury investigations, all related to his efforts to cling to power at the end of his presidency, as well as civil and criminal inquiries in New York related to his company — the federal investigation into his handling of sensitive documents taken from the White House has emerged as one of the most potentially damaging.

=======================================================

What do you think, Mike? Surely if this was just a simple matter of "misplaced documents scattered in a box somewhere" there wouldn't be a constant effort to cover it up, no?

Let us also be reminded that this affidavit is significantly redacted. We do not know everything. The only reason it appears this way is because certain sections are redacted and blacked out. This is done to protect not only a 'significant number' of eyewitnesses who provided their testimony in full, but also that of our allies, and that of our intelligence team members who may be in harm's way should the full contents of this affidavit be revealed.

========================================================

DOJ affidavit reveals a “significant number of civilian witnesses” flipped on Trump: ex-prosecutor

https://www.salon.com/2022/08/26/doj-affidavit-reveals-a-significant-number-of-civilian-witnesses-flipped-on-ex-prosecutor_partner/

"One very interesting tidbit we get from the legal memo that DOJ submitted to unseal the redacted version of the affidavit is what I think is the first effort to quantify the number of cooperating witnesses that DOJ had when they obtained this search warrant," said Vance, a former U.S. Attorney. "They're talking about the need to protect their witnesses from any sort of potential harm, and they say that there are a significant number of civilian witnesses. So we don't know -- is that five? Is that 10?"

"But I think it's important to realize here that DOJ was not just relying on one or two witnesses," she continued. "Likely this is, as they say, a significant number of civilian witnesses as well as people in law enforcement who need to be protected as this investigation moves forward, and that puts into context what we're looking at here."

"We're talking about a former president of the United States who's clearly taken with him when he left office materials, whether they're classified or not, that could do grave damage to our national security if they're disclosed in an inappropriate fashion, and not only is that former president resistant to returning those documents, also DOJ has legitimate reasons to believe that there are risk to witnesses who are helping complete this investigation," Vance added. "That should be a sobering moment for us to realize we're in this situation with former President Trump."

[G.I. Blues]

[Mike C]

In essence you are dead right. What we have here is a simple processing error. Someone other that Trump must have packed those boxes when getting ready to leave the WH, clearly just grabbing whatever they thought they should, including newspapers and magazines. With the best will, Trump would have gotten round to sorting through them eventually, then returned whatever needed returning.

Yup, that sounds completely correct to me!
A stack of magazines and newspapers and every now and then some top secret documents in between.
Sh*t happens and it wasn't even his fault, because some sloppy employee packed the documents and magazines.

Maybe you can also explain to us, why such kind of documents were lying around in the first instance when someone packed his stuff.

Despite their markings, they are not top secret. By taking the papers down to Mar-a-Lago as President, Trump declassified them. He had full declassification power as President per Article II of the Constitution -- there is no specified requirements he must follow as the Executive Branch.

However, assuming the documents were not declassified, the President cannot be charged with violating the Espionage Act because it simply does not apply to the President. See the relevant case law below.

[Mike C]

In essence you are dead right. What we have here is a simple processing error. Someone other that Trump must have packed those boxes when getting ready to leave the WH, clearly just grabbing whatever they thought they should, including newspapers and magazines. With the best will, Trump would have gotten round to sorting through them eventually, then returned whatever needed returning.

Yup, that sounds completely correct to me!
A stack of magazines and newspapers and every now and then some top secret documents in between.
Sh*t happens and it wasn't even his fault, because some sloppy employee packed the documents and magazines.

Maybe you can also explain to us, why such kind of documents were lying around in the first instance when someone packed his stuff.

Maybe Mike would like to also explain why TFG's personal notes were on the documents as well...

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/live/2022/aug/26/trump-affidavit-fbi-biden-abortion-student-loan-latest-updates

“From May 16-18, 2022, FBI agents conducted a preliminary review of the FIFTEEN BOXES provided to NARA and identified documents with classification markings in fourteen of the FIFTEEN BOXES. A preliminary triage of the documents with classification markings revealed the following approximate numbers: 184 unique documents bearing classification markings, including 67 documents marked as CONFIDENTIAL, 92 documents marked as SECRET, and 25 documents marked as TOP SECRET. Further, the FBI agents observed markings reflecting the following compartments/dissemination controls: HCS, FISA, ORCON, NOFORN, and SI.

“Based on my training and experience, I know that documents classified at these levels typically contain NDI. Several of the documents also contained what appears to be FPOTUS’s [Trump’s] handwritten notes.

Maybe Mike would also like to explain why TFG held back the documents when the National Archives came to get them...

https://www.rawstory.com/trump-300-classified-documents/

"In total, the government has recovered more than 300 documents with classified markings from Mr. Trump since he left office, the people said: that first batch of documents returned in January, another set provided by Mr. Trump’s aides to the Justice Department in June and the material seized by the F.B.I. in the search this month," said the report.

Maybe Mike would also like to explain why TFG's attorney lied about the documents all being returned when they were not...

https://www.rawstory.com/trump-300-classified-documents/

"Trump lawyer Evan Corcoran then drafted a statement, which [Christina] Bobb, who is said to be the custodian of the documents, signed," she also wrote. "It asserted that, to the best of her knowledge, all classified material that was there had been returned, according to two people familiar with the statement."

Maybe Mike would also like to explain why TFG's constant lies about the documents also continued to shift and change depending on the day:

Trump’s Shifting Explanations Follow a Familiar Playbook

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/08/14/us/politics/trump-documents-explanations.html

First he said that he was “working and cooperating with” government agents who he claimed had inappropriately entered his home. Then, when the government revealed that the F.B.I., during its search, had recovered nearly a dozen sets of documents that were marked classified, he suggested the agents had planted evidence.

Finally, his aides claimed he had a “standing order” to declassify documents that left the Oval Office for his residence, and that some of the material was protected by attorney-client and executive privilege.

Those are the ever-shifting explanations that former President Donald J. Trump and his aides have given regarding what F.B.I. agents found last week in a search of his residence at Mar-a-Lago in Palm Beach, Fla.

Mr. Trump and his allies have cast the search as a partisan assault while amplifying conflicting arguments about the handling of sensitive documents and failing to answer a question at the center of the federal investigation: Why was he keeping documents, some still marked classified, at an unsecured Florida resort when officials had sought for a year to retrieve them?

The often contradictory and unsupported defenses perpetuated by Mr. Trump and his team since the F.B.I. search follow a familiar playbook of the former president’s. He has used it over decades but most visibly when he was faced with the investigation into whether his campaign in 2016 conspired with Russians and during his first impeachment trial.

In both instances, he claimed victimization and mixed some facts with a blizzard of misleading statements or falsehoods. His lawyers denied that he had tied his administration’s withholding of vital military aid to Ukraine to Mr. Trump’s desire for investigations into Joseph R. Biden Jr. and his son, Hunter Biden.

When information contradicting that defense emerged in a forthcoming book by Mr. Trump’s former national security adviser, John R. Bolton, Mr. Trump’s lawyers switched to insisting that he hadn’t connected the aid to the investigations, but that if he had, it wouldn’t have been an impeachable offense.

Of the multiple investigations Mr. Trump currently faces — including a state inquiry in Georgia and two federal grand jury investigations, all related to his efforts to cling to power at the end of his presidency, as well as civil and criminal inquiries in New York related to his company — the federal investigation into his handling of sensitive documents taken from the White House has emerged as one of the most potentially damaging.

=======================================================

What do you think, Mike? Surely if this was just a simple matter of "misplaced documents scattered in a box somewhere" there wouldn't be a constant effort to cover it up, no?

Let us also be reminded that this affidavit is significantly redacted. We do not know everything. The only reason it appears this way is because certain sections are redacted and blacked out. This is done to protect not only a 'significant number' of eyewitnesses who provided their testimony in full, but also that of our allies, and that of our intelligence team members who may be in harm's way should the full contents of this affidavit be revealed.

========================================================

DOJ affidavit reveals a “significant number of civilian witnesses” flipped on Trump: ex-prosecutor

https://www.salon.com/2022/08/26/doj-affidavit-reveals-a-significant-number-of-civilian-witnesses-flipped-on-ex-prosecutor_partner/

"One very interesting tidbit we get from the legal memo that DOJ submitted to unseal the redacted version of the affidavit is what I think is the first effort to quantify the number of cooperating witnesses that DOJ had when they obtained this search warrant," said Vance, a former U.S. Attorney. "They're talking about the need to protect their witnesses from any sort of potential harm, and they say that there are a significant number of civilian witnesses. So we don't know -- is that five? Is that 10?"

"But I think it's important to realize here that DOJ was not just relying on one or two witnesses," she continued. "Likely this is, as they say, a significant number of civilian witnesses as well as people in law enforcement who need to be protected as this investigation moves forward, and that puts into context what we're looking at here."

"We're talking about a former president of the United States who's clearly taken with him when he left office materials, whether they're classified or not, that could do grave damage to our national security if they're disclosed in an inappropriate fashion, and not only is that former president resistant to returning those documents, also DOJ has legitimate reasons to believe that there are risk to witnesses who are helping complete this investigation," Vance added. "That should be a sobering moment for us to realize we're in this situation with former President Trump."

if they are Trump's personal copies of the documents in question -- which he is permitted to have pursuant to the Presidential Records Act -- I would be surprised he had notes on them. I mark notations on agreements I am working on all the time.

The whole thing boils down to a documents dispute between the archivist and Trump and his people. And, the DOJ used this dispute as the basis for its probable cause?

I think I located a pic of the archivist.

[BrianTCB]

In essence you are dead right. What we have here is a simple processing error. Someone other that Trump must have packed those boxes when getting ready to leave the WH, clearly just grabbing whatever they thought they should, including newspapers and magazines. With the best will, Trump would have gotten round to sorting through them eventually, then returned whatever needed returning.

Yup, that sounds completely correct to me!
A stack of magazines and newspapers and every now and then some top secret documents in between.
Sh*t happens and it wasn't even his fault, because some sloppy employee packed the documents and magazines.

Maybe you can also explain to us, why such kind of documents were lying around in the first instance when someone packed his stuff.

Maybe Mike would like to also explain why TFG's personal notes were on the documents as well...

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/live/2022/aug/26/trump-affidavit-fbi-biden-abortion-student-loan-latest-updates

“From May 16-18, 2022, FBI agents conducted a preliminary review of the FIFTEEN BOXES provided to NARA and identified documents with classification markings in fourteen of the FIFTEEN BOXES. A preliminary triage of the documents with classification markings revealed the following approximate numbers: 184 unique documents bearing classification markings, including 67 documents marked as CONFIDENTIAL, 92 documents marked as SECRET, and 25 documents marked as TOP SECRET. Further, the FBI agents observed markings reflecting the following compartments/dissemination controls: HCS, FISA, ORCON, NOFORN, and SI.

“Based on my training and experience, I know that documents classified at these levels typically contain NDI. Several of the documents also contained what appears to be FPOTUS’s [Trump’s] handwritten notes.

Maybe Mike would also like to explain why TFG held back the documents when the National Archives came to get them...

https://www.rawstory.com/trump-300-classified-documents/

"In total, the government has recovered more than 300 documents with classified markings from Mr. Trump since he left office, the people said: that first batch of documents returned in January, another set provided by Mr. Trump’s aides to the Justice Department in June and the material seized by the F.B.I. in the search this month," said the report.

Maybe Mike would also like to explain why TFG's attorney lied about the documents all being returned when they were not...

https://www.rawstory.com/trump-300-classified-documents/

"Trump lawyer Evan Corcoran then drafted a statement, which [Christina] Bobb, who is said to be the custodian of the documents, signed," she also wrote. "It asserted that, to the best of her knowledge, all classified material that was there had been returned, according to two people familiar with the statement."

Maybe Mike would also like to explain why TFG's constant lies about the documents also continued to shift and change depending on the day:

Trump’s Shifting Explanations Follow a Familiar Playbook

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/08/14/us/politics/trump-documents-explanations.html

First he said that he was “working and cooperating with” government agents who he claimed had inappropriately entered his home. Then, when the government revealed that the F.B.I., during its search, had recovered nearly a dozen sets of documents that were marked classified, he suggested the agents had planted evidence.

Finally, his aides claimed he had a “standing order” to declassify documents that left the Oval Office for his residence, and that some of the material was protected by attorney-client and executive privilege.

Those are the ever-shifting explanations that former President Donald J. Trump and his aides have given regarding what F.B.I. agents found last week in a search of his residence at Mar-a-Lago in Palm Beach, Fla.

Mr. Trump and his allies have cast the search as a partisan assault while amplifying conflicting arguments about the handling of sensitive documents and failing to answer a question at the center of the federal investigation: Why was he keeping documents, some still marked classified, at an unsecured Florida resort when officials had sought for a year to retrieve them?

The often contradictory and unsupported defenses perpetuated by Mr. Trump and his team since the F.B.I. search follow a familiar playbook of the former president’s. He has used it over decades but most visibly when he was faced with the investigation into whether his campaign in 2016 conspired with Russians and during his first impeachment trial.

In both instances, he claimed victimization and mixed some facts with a blizzard of misleading statements or falsehoods. His lawyers denied that he had tied his administration’s withholding of vital military aid to Ukraine to Mr. Trump’s desire for investigations into Joseph R. Biden Jr. and his son, Hunter Biden.

When information contradicting that defense emerged in a forthcoming book by Mr. Trump’s former national security adviser, John R. Bolton, Mr. Trump’s lawyers switched to insisting that he hadn’t connected the aid to the investigations, but that if he had, it wouldn’t have been an impeachable offense.

Of the multiple investigations Mr. Trump currently faces — including a state inquiry in Georgia and two federal grand jury investigations, all related to his efforts to cling to power at the end of his presidency, as well as civil and criminal inquiries in New York related to his company — the federal investigation into his handling of sensitive documents taken from the White House has emerged as one of the most potentially damaging.

=======================================================

What do you think, Mike? Surely if this was just a simple matter of "misplaced documents scattered in a box somewhere" there wouldn't be a constant effort to cover it up, no?

Let us also be reminded that this affidavit is significantly redacted. We do not know everything. The only reason it appears this way is because certain sections are redacted and blacked out. This is done to protect not only a 'significant number' of eyewitnesses who provided their testimony in full, but also that of our allies, and that of our intelligence team members who may be in harm's way should the full contents of this affidavit be revealed.

========================================================

DOJ affidavit reveals a “significant number of civilian witnesses” flipped on Trump: ex-prosecutor

https://www.salon.com/2022/08/26/doj-affidavit-reveals-a-significant-number-of-civilian-witnesses-flipped-on-ex-prosecutor_partner/

"One very interesting tidbit we get from the legal memo that DOJ submitted to unseal the redacted version of the affidavit is what I think is the first effort to quantify the number of cooperating witnesses that DOJ had when they obtained this search warrant," said Vance, a former U.S. Attorney. "They're talking about the need to protect their witnesses from any sort of potential harm, and they say that there are a significant number of civilian witnesses. So we don't know -- is that five? Is that 10?"

"But I think it's important to realize here that DOJ was not just relying on one or two witnesses," she continued. "Likely this is, as they say, a significant number of civilian witnesses as well as people in law enforcement who need to be protected as this investigation moves forward, and that puts into context what we're looking at here."

"We're talking about a former president of the United States who's clearly taken with him when he left office materials, whether they're classified or not, that could do grave damage to our national security if they're disclosed in an inappropriate fashion, and not only is that former president resistant to returning those documents, also DOJ has legitimate reasons to believe that there are risk to witnesses who are helping complete this investigation," Vance added. "That should be a sobering moment for us to realize we're in this situation with former President Trump."

if they are Trump's personal copies of the documents in question -- which he is permitted to have pursuant to the Presidential Records Act -- I would be surprised he had notes on them. I mark notations on agreements I am working on all the time.

The whole thing boils down to a documents dispute between the archivist and Trump and his people. And, the DOJ used this dispute as the basis for its probable cause?

I think I located a pic of the archivist.

Sorry Mike, but that's a dubious legal argument at best. Former President Trump is not permitted to have these records as per the Atomic Energy Act. And there is a specific process - even for former Presidents. There has been no indication that Trump went through this process.

Trump cannot declassify documents just because "he says so."

[BrianTCB]

By the way, Mike C - since you are such an expert, and licensed to practice such law, why don't you apply with former President Trump himself and become his personal attorney? That would be a lot of money. And you could prove yourself to this forum, once and for all.

I hear he's having a hell of a time finding any attorneys who will represent him.

Trump Having Hard Time Finding Lawyers Because They Want To Be Paid: Journalist

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/trump-lawyer-shortage-payment-refuses-to-listen-maggie-haberman_n_6302c273e4b0f7df9bb16e43

Donald Trump is reportedly having a difficult time finding lawyers to represent him in part because they want to be paid, New York Times political reporter Maggie Haberman sniped Sunday.

“You are seeing many fewer lawyers who are willing to go out and speak for him and/or hitch their wagon [to him] and maybe not get paid — which is a big thing,” Haberman told host Abby Phillip on CNN’s “Inside Politics.”

Trump has a reputation for ignoring or litigating bills for various services.

He reportedly failed to pay Rudy Giuliani despite his years of work on Trump’s behalf.

Giuliani associate Maria Ryan reportedly pleaded in a letter intended for Trump to pay him. She submitted a bill for $2.5 million to then-White House chief of staff Mark Meadows for Giuliani’s services, according to an upcoming book by journalist Andrew Kirtzman, “Giuliani: The Rise and Tragic Fall of America’s Mayor.”

The letter was intercepted by a Giuliani adviser before it reached Trump.

Lack of payment is not the only thing scaring off attorneys.

Lawyer Alan Dershowitz, a champion of Trump who defended him in his first impeachment trial, told Business Insider that most reputable law firms are fearful that a relationship with Trump now will scare off other businesses.

“The firms won’t let them go near any case involving Trump. These are firms that want to continue to have clients, and they know that if they represent Donald Trump, they’ll lose a lot of clients,” he told Insider.

Haberman also said Trump is a difficult client.

“He doesn’t like to listen to his lawyers,” she explained. “The fact that it takes a huge effort to get him to do so by his lawyers always. This is an ongoing story we’ve been watching — frankly not just since he became president, but well before, going back to when he was advised by Roy Cohn many decades ago,” she added.

[Mike C]

Notice how the redacted affidavit neither referenced the Atomic Energy Act nor any "nuclear secrets". That's because it is very likely that there were no such papers in the boxes. Indeed, the DOJ did not cite this statute in their warrant so I don't know why you keep referencing it. It is irrelevant.

But assuming he had such items, Article II of the Constitution trumps the Atomic Energy Act. By taking the papers as President down to Florida, Trump immediately declassified them. Game over.

Even if they were reclassified after he left office, they would fall under the Presidential Records Act statute which contemplates a President possessing "classified" materials. There is no criminal sanction under the PRA.

As President (i.e. before noon on January 20, 2021), Trump -- like all other Presidents -- had broad declassification powers. The Courts have been quite clear on this point for decades. See Mike Davis' tweet below which has a copy of the relevant case law attached.

[BrianTCB]

Sorry, Mike C. You are dead wrong. Declaring the affidavit wrong based on the redacted version is short-sighted and inaccurate. There is still so much we don't know. Let's see the redacted version before you start spewing Trump ally talking points.

But, since you are so confident, why don't you go get hired by Trump and defend him in public trial with that exact reasoning? I'm sure we'll all be heavily anticipating THOSE results.

Not Even the President Can Declassify Nuclear Secrets

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/08/trump-fbi-raid-classified-nuclear-documents/671119/

Leonard noted important caveats, however. First, Trump’s power to declassify ended with his presidency. Second, that U-Haul could be reclassified by someone else. (Depending on traffic and the sharpness of the Biden administration, I would imagine it could have been reclassified somewhere around Fredericksburg, Virginia.) And third, there are certain materials that presidents cannot classify and declassify at will. One such category of material is the identity of spies.

Another is nuclear secrets. The Atomic Energy Acts of 1946 and 1954 produced an even stranger category of classified knowledge. Anything related to the production or use of nuclear weapons and nuclear power is inherently classified, and Trump could utter whatever words he pleased yet still be in possession of classified material. Where are our nuclear warheads? What tricks have we developed to make sure they work? This information is “born secret” no matter who produces it. The restrictions on documents of this type are incredibly tight. In the unlikely event that Trump came up with a new way to enrich uranium, and scribbled it on a cocktail napkin poolside at Mar-a-Lago early this year, that napkin would instantly have become a classified document subject to various controls and procedures, and possibly illegal for the former president to possess. Of course if he did so, no prosecutor would pursue him. A certain amount of leeway is crucial to the system.

[Mike C]

By the way, Mike C - since you are such an expert, and licensed to practice such law, why don't you apply with former President Trump himself and become his personal attorney? That would be a lot of money. And you could prove yourself to this forum, once and for all.

I hear he's having a hell of a time finding any attorneys who will represent him.

Trump Having Hard Time Finding Lawyers Because They Want To Be Paid: Journalist

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/trump-lawyer-shortage-payment-refuses-to-listen-maggie-haberman_n_6302c273e4b0f7df9bb16e43

Donald Trump is reportedly having a difficult time finding lawyers to represent him in part because they want to be paid, New York Times political reporter Maggie Haberman sniped Sunday.

“You are seeing many fewer lawyers who are willing to go out and speak for him and/or hitch their wagon [to him] and maybe not get paid — which is a big thing,” Haberman told host Abby Phillip on CNN’s “Inside Politics.”

Trump has a reputation for ignoring or litigating bills for various services.

He reportedly failed to pay Rudy Giuliani despite his years of work on Trump’s behalf.

Giuliani associate Maria Ryan reportedly pleaded in a letter intended for Trump to pay him. She submitted a bill for $2.5 million to then-White House chief of staff Mark Meadows for Giuliani’s services, according to an upcoming book by journalist Andrew Kirtzman, “Giuliani: The Rise and Tragic Fall of America’s Mayor.”

The letter was intercepted by a Giuliani adviser before it reached Trump.

Lack of payment is not the only thing scaring off attorneys.

Lawyer Alan Dershowitz, a champion of Trump who defended him in his first impeachment trial, told Business Insider that most reputable law firms are fearful that a relationship with Trump now will scare off other businesses.

“The firms won’t let them go near any case involving Trump. These are firms that want to continue to have clients, and they know that if they represent Donald Trump, they’ll lose a lot of clients,” he told Insider.

Haberman also said Trump is a difficult client.

“He doesn’t like to listen to his lawyers,” she explained. “The fact that it takes a huge effort to get him to do so by his lawyers always. This is an ongoing story we’ve been watching — frankly not just since he became president, but well before, going back to when he was advised by Roy Cohn many decades ago,” she added.

That's okay. I like my current practice and appellate practice is not my bag. But I am a lawyer -- been practicing for many years. Come to my house and I'll be glad to show you my bar license!

So, you're saying that Trump should be denied his right to counsel?

Seriously, can you please explain to me why the Orange Man drives liberals crazy? Is it only because he beat Hilary in 2016?

[Mike C]

Sorry, Mike C. You are dead wrong. Declaring the affidavit wrong based on the redacted version is short-sighted and inaccurate. There is still so much we don't know. Let's see the redacted version before you start spewing Trump ally talking points.

But, since you are so confident, why don't you go get hired by Trump and defend him in public trial with that exact reasoning? I'm sure we'll all be heavily anticipating THOSE results.

Not Even the President Can Declassify Nuclear Secrets

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/08/trump-fbi-raid-classified-nuclear-documents/671119/

Leonard noted important caveats, however. First, Trump’s power to declassify ended with his presidency. Second, that U-Haul could be reclassified by someone else. (Depending on traffic and the sharpness of the Biden administration, I would imagine it could have been reclassified somewhere around Fredericksburg, Virginia.) And third, there are certain materials that presidents cannot classify and declassify at will. One such category of material is the identity of spies.

Another is nuclear secrets. The Atomic Energy Acts of 1946 and 1954 produced an even stranger category of classified knowledge. Anything related to the production or use of nuclear weapons and nuclear power is inherently classified, and Trump could utter whatever words he pleased yet still be in possession of classified material. Where are our nuclear warheads? What tricks have we developed to make sure they work? This information is “born secret” no matter who produces it. The restrictions on documents of this type are incredibly tight. In the unlikely event that Trump came up with a new way to enrich uranium, and scribbled it on a cocktail napkin poolside at Mar-a-Lago early this year, that napkin would instantly have become a classified document subject to various controls and procedures, and possibly illegal for the former president to possess. Of course if he did so, no prosecutor would pursue him. A certain amount of leeway is crucial to the system.

So, if we don't know what is behind the redacted affidavit, then why do you keep referencing the Atomic Energy Act? It's a straw-man argument based upon a leak from a single unnamed source in a Washington Post article. No different than the alleged account the Post claimed Trump had at "Alfa Bank". As the Sussman case showed us, this account never existed.

The Atomic Energy Act appears to be inapplicable given the DOJ did not reference this statute in the warrant? Surely, if they had some evidence of him violating this Act, they would have referenced it to strengthen their probable cause claim.

I never said Trump's declassification power limitless -- I said it was broad. Frankly, there is more classified information between Trump's ears than in Mar-a-Lago which is why we provide him (and all Presidents) secret-service protection after they leave office.

But even the article you quoted notes the following: "Of course if he did so, no prosecutor would pursue him. A certain amount of leeway is crucial to the system."

[MaryAnn]

In essence you are dead right. What we have here is a simple processing error. Someone other that Trump must have packed those boxes when getting ready to leave the WH, clearly just grabbing whatever they thought they should, including newspapers and magazines. With the best will, Trump would have gotten round to sorting through them eventually, then returned whatever needed returning.

Yup, that sounds completely correct to me!
A stack of magazines and newspapers and every now and then some top secret documents in between.
Sh*t happens and it wasn't even his fault, because some sloppy employee packed the documents and magazines.

Maybe you can also explain to us, why such kind of documents were lying around in the first instance when someone packed his stuff.

Which is exactly why he is a total Doofus. He is a very, very dangerous person who should never, ever be be allowed anywhere near ANY sensitive information EVER again!

[MaryAnn]

Try to grasp this. Trump only cares about his own power. He operates without any constraints of decency, conscience, integrity, or principles. He has no empathy or compassion. He cares nothing about the ideals of our country or the real problems of its people. He has appealed to the worst instincts of our society to attain power.
The sooner we are rid of him, the better.

[G.I. Blues]

In essence you are dead right. What we have here is a simple processing error. Someone other that Trump must have packed those boxes when getting ready to leave the WH, clearly just grabbing whatever they thought they should, including newspapers and magazines. With the best will, Trump would have gotten round to sorting through them eventually, then returned whatever needed returning.

Yup, that sounds completely correct to me!
A stack of magazines and newspapers and every now and then some top secret documents in between.
Sh*t happens and it wasn't even his fault, because some sloppy employee packed the documents and magazines.

Maybe you can also explain to us, why such kind of documents were lying around in the first instance when someone packed his stuff.

Despite their markings, they are not top secret. By taking the papers down to Mar-a-Lago as President, Trump declassified them. He had full declassification power as President per Article II of the Constitution -- there is no specified requirements he must follow as the Executive Branch.

However, assuming the documents were not declassified, the President cannot be charged with violating the Espionage Act because it simply does not apply to the President. See the relevant case law below.

Thank you for your assessment.

But Mike Edwards basically claimed that it was not Trump who took the papers down to Florida, so how could he have declassified the documents without even knowing they were moved?

And if I remember correctly, Trump is not the President, is he?

[G.I. Blues]

By the way, Mike C - since you are such an expert, and licensed to practice such law, why don't you apply with former President Trump himself and become his personal attorney? That would be a lot of money. And you could prove yourself to this forum, once and for all.

I hear he's having a hell of a time finding any attorneys who will represent him.

Trump Having Hard Time Finding Lawyers Because They Want To Be Paid: Journalist

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/trump-lawyer-shortage-payment-refuses-to-listen-maggie-haberman_n_6302c273e4b0f7df9bb16e43

Donald Trump is reportedly having a difficult time finding lawyers to represent him in part because they want to be paid, New York Times political reporter Maggie Haberman sniped Sunday.

“You are seeing many fewer lawyers who are willing to go out and speak for him and/or hitch their wagon [to him] and maybe not get paid — which is a big thing,” Haberman told host Abby Phillip on CNN’s “Inside Politics.”

Trump has a reputation for ignoring or litigating bills for various services.

He reportedly failed to pay Rudy Giuliani despite his years of work on Trump’s behalf.

Giuliani associate Maria Ryan reportedly pleaded in a letter intended for Trump to pay him. She submitted a bill for $2.5 million to then-White House chief of staff Mark Meadows for Giuliani’s services, according to an upcoming book by journalist Andrew Kirtzman, “Giuliani: The Rise and Tragic Fall of America’s Mayor.”

The letter was intercepted by a Giuliani adviser before it reached Trump.

Lack of payment is not the only thing scaring off attorneys.

Lawyer Alan Dershowitz, a champion of Trump who defended him in his first impeachment trial, told Business Insider that most reputable law firms are fearful that a relationship with Trump now will scare off other businesses.

“The firms won’t let them go near any case involving Trump. These are firms that want to continue to have clients, and they know that if they represent Donald Trump, they’ll lose a lot of clients,” he told Insider.

Haberman also said Trump is a difficult client.

“He doesn’t like to listen to his lawyers,” she explained. “The fact that it takes a huge effort to get him to do so by his lawyers always. This is an ongoing story we’ve been watching — frankly not just since he became president, but well before, going back to when he was advised by Roy Cohn many decades ago,” she added.

That's okay. I like my current practice and appellate practice is not my bag. But I am a lawyer -- been practicing for many years. Come to my house and I'll be glad to show you my bar license!

So, you're saying that Trump should be denied his right to counsel?

Seriously, can you please explain to me why the Orange Man drives liberals crazy? Is it only because he beat Hilary in 2016?

No, it's because the orange man is crazy!

[BrianTCB]

[mike edwards66]

In essence you are dead right. What we have here is a simple processing error. Someone other that Trump must have packed those boxes when getting ready to leave the WH, clearly just grabbing whatever they thought they should, including newspapers and magazines. With the best will, Trump would have gotten round to sorting through them eventually, then returned whatever needed returning.

Yup, that sounds completely correct to me!
A stack of magazines and newspapers and every now and then some top secret documents in between.
Sh*t happens and it wasn't even his fault, because some sloppy employee packed the documents and magazines.

Maybe you can also explain to us, why such kind of documents were lying around in the first instance when someone packed his stuff.

Which is exactly why he is a total Doofus. He is a very, very dangerous person who should never, ever be be allowed anywhere near ANY sensitive information EVER again!

Doofus? On his watch, strong economy, strong borders, no wars. Biden should be such a doofus.

[mike edwards66]

But Mike Edwards basically claimed that it was not Trump who took the papers down to Florida, so how could he have declassified the documents without even knowing they were moved?

I didn't say he didn't take them, I said he didn't pack them.