Prince From Another Planet - Brilliant!

[monkboughtlunch]

However this conclusion surely negates your conclusion that that these remixes are superior to the original mixes.

Reverb and compression is typically applied during mastering. That's independent of mixing. I stand behind my observation that the mixes are good, but the compression and reverb applied is not.

[Matthew]

Reverb and compression is typically applied during mastering. That's independent of mixing. I stand behind my observation that the mixes are good, but the compression and reverb applied is not.

The compression and reverb here is part of the mix - the compression a result of the 'unique' mixing process Michael Brauer uses to get different EQ tones, the reverb applied to different tracks - like Elvis vocal track. Reverb applied at the mastering stage would sit over the whole sound field. Vic Anesini would have received already compressed, already reverbed mixes.

So if you're critical of the compression and reverb here, the mix is to blame - not the mastering.

[Matthew]

Here is my mini-review of the set:

The Good

- The DVD. The film footage of the afternoon show from the 10th June, married with the audio is a great little experiment. It is totally cool the film-maker took some footage from outside the venue and inside the Garden prior to Elvis arriving on stage, it really sets the atmosphere and places a sense of reality over the occasion beyond the audio component. Sure, its grainy - it's part of the territory - but it is very steady and covers many key moments from the show.

The documentary is ok, a nice gesture but a little hollow to be honest. A lot of hype in there for the significance of the concerts. Nice set-up through to the main event.

The interview footage is nice, but very choppy and incomplete. It spoils the flow. If footage from other stations could not be secured to piece together the interview then a similar approach to filling in the gaps with interview audio only would have been a better choice. Still, better to have it than not.

- The packaging. It's very nicely designed (not perfect*). The larger canvas allows the images and text to stand out in greater glory. The liner notes are fun and the images within the deluxe booklet nicely presented. It shares similarities with Young Man With The Big Beat, but on a smaller scale.

- The audio. It is great that Sony have seen fit to invest in remixing and remastering both concerts from scratch. After fans calling for it for years it appears we do have a voice. However...

The Bad

- The audio. The presentation is far from great. The goal according to the booklet says they wanted to place the listener in the 4th row of the Garden. Well, it didn't work. Where as FTD's "Live On Stage In Memphis" (like it or loath it) achieved this result, perhaps unintentionally (there was no mention of this intent for the release), here you actually feel like you're sitting in Ronnie Tutt's drum-stool. Hmm. Let us begin:

The mix is the problem here, and there is much more going on than just a simple remix (placing instruments and voice elements around the stereo field, setting the levels on said tracks, perhaps a little reverb here and there). Here we get that, plus an (un)healthy dose of strange EQ manipulation via the use of armies of audio compressors. The result is a kind of smashed in, fatiguing listening experience. Sure, it's punchy - but at the cost of live dynamics and openness in the sound. Everything feels like it's competing for the same airspace with little room to breath. Some instruments are dryer than others, and Elvis feels strangely detached from the rest of the sound mix. Additionally something weird seems to be going on with the backing vocals, which sound oddly modulated somehow. I don't quite know how to describe it, and perhaps it's inherent on the tape (thought I don't quite hear the same oddness on the original mixes) but they sound off. Furthermore they are quite buried in the mix - which as we know from offline tapes is not how they were mixed live. Is this really how Elvis' concerts sounded in 1972? It is doubtful the music through the front of house would be so restricted sounding. It is a crying shame because outside of the weird-sounding backing vocals the mix sounds like it could be a great experience if all the sodding compression where removed (impossible) from the process. It's screaming to burst through ceiling, but it can't. D'oh! I'd love to "play it loud" - the problem is guys you've robbed the music of the joy of playing it loud - dynamics. I've tried sitting with this release, listening to it in various settings and I cannot escape the annoyance of that damned compression. The mastering is also a little bright, though whether this is from the mastering or the compromises made through compression-EQ manipulation in mixing is unknown.

-The packaging. Whoever the moron is that signed off on the CD sleeve design deserves a dressing down. Getting the CDs and DVD out of those silly slots is a mission and a half since you're trying to 1) not scratch or mark the discs and 2) not tear the packaging. They'll probably loosen up a bit in time but really, this passed quality control? Did anyone in design actually try removing the discs themselves? If they were insistent on this I would have settled for some centre disc holes so one could at least push the discs out a little. Deluxe looking packaging is nice, pretty design layouts are fun but "hello!!", the music (and here, video) is the all important centre-piece of the project, yet the discs are put at needless risk.

Conclusion: it is really great that Sony have finally after so long issued an actual Legacy Edition product on Elvis. Wait, back up there a second, this isn't a Legacy Edition. Right. Anyway, that an archival Elvis product in this format has come out at an affordable retail price point in 2012 is a step up. The overall package speaks class. It's just a shame the all important audio suffers at the hands of the current audio landscape.

I expect I'll be flamed now, told to clear my ears out. Well, you run along and enjoy your 30#1 Hits and your Prince From Another Planet discs. I sold my 30#1 Hits long ago and if it weren't for the DVD and attractive packaging this release would be for the garage sale. I won't be spinning these CDs often. Thankfully the much-maligned original mix of the evening show sounds fantastic on Complete Masters, revealing many complaints against it are unwarranted. Sure, it doesn't place me in the 4th row either, but it breaths and is dynamic. As for the afternoon show, I'll have to wait to see how it's been mastered on the Legacy Edition.

[PiersEIN]

Here is my mini-review of the set:
Conclusion: it is really great that Sony have finally after so long issued an actual Legacy Edition product on Elvis. Wait, back up there a second, this isn't a Legacy Edition. Right. Anyway, that an archival Elvis product in this format has come out at an affordable retail price point in 2012 is a step up. The overall package speaks class. It's just a shame the all important audio suffers at the hands of the current audio landscape.

Interesting review, and some points I would also agree with.
In any case, a review is a personal opinion and has to be welcomed.
Everyone has the right to their own level of enjoyment of anything they purchase - and it is their right to decide whether it fits their expectations (and value-for-money).
THANKS,,

Cheers, Piers

[promiseland]

Here is my mini-review of the set:

The mix is the problem here, and there is much more going on than just a simple remix (placing instruments and voice elements around the stereo field, setting the levels on said tracks, perhaps a little reverb here and there). Here we get that, plus an (un)healthy dose of strange EQ manipulation via the use of armies of audio compressors. The result is a kind of smashed in, fatiguing listening experience. Sure, it's punchy - but at the cost of live dynamics and openness in the sound. Everything feels like it's competing for the same airspace with little room to breath. Some instruments are dryer than others, and Elvis feels strangely detached from the rest of the sound mix. Additionally something weird seems to be going on with the backing vocals, which sound oddly modulated somehow. I don't quite know how to describe it, and perhaps it's inherent on the tape (thought I don't quite hear the same oddness on the original mixes) but they sound off. Furthermore they are quite buried in the mix - which as we know from offline tapes is not how they were mixed live. Is this really how Elvis' concerts sounded in 1972? It is doubtful the music through the front of house would be so restricted sounding. It is a crying shame because outside of the weird-sounding backing vocals the mix sounds like it could be a great experience if all the sodding compression where removed (impossible) from the process. It's screaming to burst through ceiling, but it can't. D'oh! I'd love to "play it loud" - the problem is guys you've robbed the music of the joy of playing it loud - dynamics. I've tried sitting with this release, listening to it in various settings and I cannot escape the annoyance of that damned compression. The mastering is also a little bright, though whether this is from the mastering or the compromises made through compression-EQ manipulation in mixing is unknown.

Your review is excellent , although much deeper than than I have listened to.
My main complaint (Highlighted in red of your post) with the mix would be the way the orchestra< horns, etc,, is just layered over the top of the entire mix, somewhat like a complete mono mix just laid on top of a stereo mix. This is not what I was expecting.
If you listen to the horns in the mix on the Aloha From Hawaii Deluxe DVD (set to 2 channel in the DVD menu audio settings) it sounds fantastic. Why was this not done the same on this CD? Could this sound as good as Aloha mix? The only possible way would be it would have to be multi-track as they claim it is, from what you have written above and from what I am hearing now from what you are pointing out, something very strange seems to be going on here with this mix. Why was all these compressors and various filters being used especially on the backups sings Sweets etc, when you have a clean Multi-track to stand these out naturally? Do you think peak levels where manipulated to simulate a muti effect, then the original dry 2 track was imposed over the top of what was processed?
After reading your post and taking a close listen I am not feeling a new Multi-Track Mix but a clever audio restoration attempt.

Just an opinion Matthew.

[Matthew]

They are definitely new mixes, but the way Michael Brauer works when mixing is fairly unique for he basically uses compressors to facilitate different sounds out of individual track-feeds when mixing, for their EQ qualities.

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/nov08/articles/itbrauer.htm#6

[promiseland]

They are definitely new mixes, but the way Michael Brauer works when mixing is fairly unique for he basically uses compressors to facilitate different sounds out of individual track-feeds when mixing, for their EQ qualities.

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/nov08/articles/itbrauer.htm#6

Wow! That is some article I think Elvis' TCB Band was just too many to mix because he sure F*ked up the horn section! Other than that and the Sweets (that's f*ked up too) I like it if it's all we have for now next to TCM . But damn.. why didn't they mix it like Aloha!

[Mike S]

The mix is the problem here, and there is much more going on than just a simple remix (placing instruments and voice elements around the stereo field, setting the levels on said tracks, perhaps a little reverb here and there). Here we get that, plus an (un)healthy dose of strange EQ manipulation via the use of armies of audio compressors. The result is a kind of smashed in, fatiguing listening experience. Sure, it's punchy - but at the cost of live dynamics and openness in the sound. Everything feels like it's competing for the same airspace with little room to breath. Some instruments are dryer than others, and Elvis feels strangely detached from the rest of the sound mix. Additionally something weird seems to be going on with the backing vocals, which sound oddly modulated somehow. I don't quite know how to describe it, and perhaps it's inherent on the tape (thought I don't quite hear the same oddness on the original mixes) but they sound off. Furthermore they are quite buried in the mix - which as we know from offline tapes is not how they were mixed live. Is this really how Elvis' concerts sounded in 1972? It is doubtful the music through the front of house would be so restricted sounding. It is a crying shame because outside of the weird-sounding backing vocals the mix sounds like it could be a great experience if all the sodding compression where removed (impossible) from the process. It's screaming to burst through ceiling, but it can't. D'oh! I'd love to "play it loud" - the problem is guys you've robbed the music of the joy of playing it loud - dynamics. I've tried sitting with this release, listening to it in various settings and I cannot escape the annoyance of that damned compression. The mastering is also a little bright, though whether this is from the mastering or the compromises made through compression-EQ manipulation in mixing is unknown.

Fantastic review Matthew and totally confirms your status as a sound expert on this board. Your comments on all aspects of this release are completely fair and your spot-on impressions regarding the audio will register as such with all those who have a hi-fi set-up worth the name. Well done!

I expect I'll be flamed now, told to clear my ears out.

......only by those needing precisely this advice themselves.

[Mike S]

Reverb and compression is typically applied during mastering. That's independent of mixing. I stand behind my observation that the mixes are good, but the compression and reverb applied is not.

The compression and reverb here is part of the mix - the compression a result of the 'unique' mixing process Michael Brauer uses to get different EQ tones, the reverb applied to different tracks - like Elvis vocal track. Reverb applied at the mastering stage would sit over the whole sound field. Vic Anesini would have received already compressed, already reverbed mixes.

So if you're critical of the compression and reverb here, the mix is to blame - not the mastering.

Thank you.

After all the implications of his conclusion was that Brauer's work was excellent but that Vic Annesi had ruined it by masteriing it in a poor fashion....which is ludicrous.

[Mike S]

After reading your post and taking a close listen I am not feeling a new Multi-Track Mix but a clever audio restoration attempt.

Yup.

Credit should also go to Tim C who spotted this earlier on, dismissing it as nothing more than a cheap gimmick.....similar to the hype put out at the time for the Alternative Aloha release.

[Matthew]

Alternative Aloha

Gosh, what an early stain. I recall with humour the intricate detail the booklet went into detailing how they had digitally chopped everything up into pieces, moving things around, doing tech-geek stuff to it, then reassembling it like a jigsaw puzzle.

[promiseland]

After reading your post and taking a close listen I am not feeling a new Multi-Track Mix but a clever audio restoration attempt.

Yup.

Credit should also go to Tim C who spotted this earlier on, dismissing it as nothing more than a cheap gimmick.....similar to the hype put out at the time for the Alternative Aloha release.

Yes it would take guy like Michael Brauer who is a filter and enhancement expert to pull it off. It is only obvious if a true Multi-Track tape existed it would have been used on "The Complete Masters Box" to produce what they are claiming now.

[promiseland]

Alternative Aloha

Gosh, what an early stain. I recall with humour the intricate detail the booklet went into detailing how they had digitally chopped everything up into pieces, moving things around, doing tech-geek stuff to it, then reassembling it like a jigsaw puzzle.

But it sounds good! That was part of the 5.1 mixing

[Matthew]

Alternative Aloha

Gosh, what an early stain. I recall with humour the intricate detail the booklet went into detailing how they had digitally chopped everything up into pieces, moving things around, doing tech-geek stuff to it, then reassembling it like a jigsaw puzzle.

But it sounds good! That was part of the 5.1 mixing

The Alternate Aloha is a CD release from 1988.

http://www.elvisoncd.com/eigenecd/CD/a/alternatealoha.htm

[promiseland]

Alternative Aloha

Gosh, what an early stain. I recall with humour the intricate detail the booklet went into detailing how they had digitally chopped everything up into pieces, moving things around, doing tech-geek stuff to it, then reassembling it like a jigsaw puzzle.

But it sounds good! That was part of the 5.1 mixing

The Alternate Aloha is a CD release from 1988.

http://www.elvisoncd.com/eigenecd/CD/a/alternatealoha.htm

No I'm talking about the Deluxe DVD the broadcast show .
I thought you ment the chopping and moving as referring to this one.

[Matthew]

No, I was referring to Mike's post mentioning the Alternate Aloha. Currently that concert sounds best on the DVD, but it really needs a decent CD release.

Hopefully if they do a Legacy Edition of Aloha From Hawaii they won't consider the 1988 abomination of the rehearsal show as the "original mix"!

[promiseland]

No, I was referring to Mike's post mentioning the Alternate Aloha. Currently that concert sounds best on the DVD, but it really needs a decent CD release.

Hopefully if they do a Legacy Edition of Aloha From Hawaii they won't consider the 1988 abomination of the rehearsal show as the "original mix"!

Yes that would be a waste I agree!

[monkboughtlunch]

Reverb and compression is typically applied during mastering. That's independent of mixing. I stand behind my observation that the mixes are good, but the compression and reverb applied is not.

The compression and reverb here is part of the mix - the compression a result of the 'unique' mixing process Michael Brauer uses to get different EQ tones, the reverb applied to different tracks - like Elvis vocal track. Reverb applied at the mastering stage would sit over the whole sound field. Vic Anesini would have received already compressed, already reverbed mixes.

So if you're critical of the compression and reverb here, the mix is to blame - not the mastering.

Yikes! Thanks for sharing background on Brauer's heavy handed approach of using compression during the mixing. He really went overboard with compression -- the dynamics are squashed to hell.

Just found this article where Brauer explains his technique. Not sure if this has been posted, but some might find it interesting.

[Jamie]

Fantastic review Matthew and totally confirms your status as a sound expert on this board. Your comments on all aspects of this release are completely fair and your spot-on impressions regarding the audio will register as such with all those who have a hi-fi set-up worth the name. Well done!

No problem with Matthews technical comments on the audio mix (I posted that link about three weeks ago but it seems to have been missed) but I don't agree with some comments made which are surely subjective. For instance I DO feel as though I am part of the event more so than with other releases. But I don't think the presentation can be said to be a fact fact one way or the other it's surely a matter of opinion. Equally, I don't find Elvis vocals detached from the band. It just seems like a great singer is fronting up a great band. His vocals never sounded better, but again thats subjective. One can understand the audio technques applied and that it is not neccessarily an audiophile release but still be able to enjoy it. And to do so doesn't make you ignorant, deaf or mean you have a sh*t hifi!

I think the comment above about hifi set up is incredibly arrogant. The suggestion seems to be, if you don't hate the release you must have a crap hifi or presumably be deaf or a cretin. Or possibly all three. Well I have an expensive hifi, recognise the approach to compression and stlll enjoy the release. Would a Vic Annesi mix and mastering be better? Perhaps but who knows, it could have been more dynamic but lost out in other ways. It would be great to have the best of this and be an audiophile recording but I doubt we will now get that.

Another thought, I still listen to plenty of disks which are low fi recordings but are great music. If I restricted my listening to "audiophile" recordings I would be depriving myself of some great music. On the other hand I have bought many audiophile recordings on the back of reviews in hifi magazines only to be disappointed after the initial wow factor of "gosh I can really feel every puck of that double bass etc.". Ultimately, the music was not interesting or enjoyable long term. It's not always about the audiophile quality.

cheers Jamie

[a mess of polk salad]

The sound is well balanced on the CDs imho but it's the footage that's the gold - watched it again last night and it's just stunning - so cool to have - 'Prince From Another Planet' - one of the Elvis releases of the year - alongside ABFT and the Hawaii to Vegas FTD.

How Elvis stands back so cool near the end of 'That's Al Right' - what a performer! 'Polks' dynamic action and 'Hound Dogs' drama - but the piece de resistance - "Suspicious Minds" - quintessential '70s Elvis on fire and the karate extravaganza finnish - just brilliant!!!

[Tim C]

We've been waiting for 40 G'damn years for an audiophile type or at least better remixing/mastering of the evening show and all we got was an epic FAIL. How anyone can sit there and say this is a better mix when virtually everything behind Elvis's voice swirls in mud is beyond me. And yes, it does smack of arrogance for one to say it should be listened to on 10-20-30 thousand dollar equipment when ears can hear very well on $200 dollar equipment or $25.00 earphones for that matter. It's not like we are comparing cd to vinyl here either.

The stereo image is all f^d up. I'll tell you this much, when I went to see the Elvis concert in Cleveland about 10 years ago I could hear everything, there was no curtain, blanket, sheet, mattress and box-spring hiding the sound, unlike this release!!!

Ernst...FIX THIS...don't make us wait another 40 years, or even another year. The guy you hired to do this release was ill equipped mentally to do an Elvis concert. Maybe his "technique" works with the crap coming out today, but it doesn't work with the full audible range sound of an Elvis concert.

IMO This guy had no respect for what Elvis himself was trying to achieve onstage, the big band sound, the bigger than life aura and emotional impact that he was trying to create with the band driving him, making him feel it also. Where is the timbre of Ronnie's set? The voice of the Sweets and Stamps? Where are the horns at the most dramatic time in the song? Where is James guitar except during a few solos? They are trapped in a quagmire of artificial tones, swirling about, making you wonder...there they are...no wait...where did they go?

Where did the emotive peaks go, the crescendo, the moment of holding your breath in anticipation of what we all know by now should be coming, being held in anticipation, only to be let down by the lifeless muddiness of it all, the emotional impact gone, while trying to make up for it with bass drum impact, as if that is all to an Elvis show. Gone is the air, and life has been drained of the performance because of it. Why didn't they just EQ Elvis vocal track and remove as much bleed thru as possible and issue it with Ronnie's drum track alone, it would have been much more appreciated.

[ekenee]

We've been waiting for 40 G'damn years for an audiophile type or at least better remixing/mastering of the evening show and all we got was an epic FAIL. How anyone can sit there and say this is a better mix when virtually everything behind Elvis's voice swirls in mud is beyond me. And yes, it does smack of arrogance for one to say it should be listened to on 10-20-30 thousand dollar equipment when ears can hear very well on $200 dollar equipment or $25.00 earphones for that matter. It's not like we are comparing cd to vinyl here either.

The stereo image is all f^d up. I'll tell you this much, when I went to see the Elvis concert in Cleveland about 10 years ago I could hear everything, there was no curtain, blanket, sheet, mattress and box-spring hiding the sound, unlike this release!!!

Ernst...FIX THIS...don't make us wait another 40 years, or even another year. The guy you hired to do this release was ill equipped mentally to do an Elvis concert. Maybe his "technique" works with the crap coming out today, but it doesn't work with the full audible range sound of an Elvis concert.

IMO This guy had no respect for what Elvis himself was trying to achieve onstage, the big band sound, the bigger than life aura and emotional impact that he was trying to create with the band driving him, making him feel it also. Where is the timbre of Ronnie's set? The voice of the Sweets and Stamps? Where are the horns at the most dramatic time in the song? Where is James guitar except during a few solos? They are trapped in a quagmire of artificial tones, swirling about, making you wonder...there they are...no wait...where did they go?

Where did the emotive peaks go, the crescendo, the moment of holding your breath in anticipation of what we all know by now should be coming, being held in anticipation, only to be let down by the lifeless muddiness of it all, the emotional impact gone, while trying to make up for it with bass drum impact, as if that is all to an Elvis show. Gone is the air, and life has been drained of the performance because of it. Why didn't they just EQ Elvis vocal track and remove as much bleed thru as possible and issue it with Ronnie's drum track alone, it would have been much more appreciated.

Wow, and people say I am negative. Just kidding.
I agree with you but I wasn't that to the point.
In my review I did state that this mix was an improvement over "Afternoon at the Garden" only because
that cd was done so poorly.
Do you agree with that, or do you find even that show was messed up even worse?
I find the two shows now sound about the same.
The feel that distinguished the evening show from the afternoon show is all but gone, buried in as you say, "mud".

But what the hell, people love it. They can't get enough of it.
And they know better, because they have an expensive stereo. LOL.

[Jamie]

My point about stereo was the opposite. It was in response to Mike saying anyone with a good stereo could tell this crap. As mentioned above you can tell whether you like it or not on anything if that's your normal reference point. A better system lets you hear more but that's a different discussion. The bottom line is it's up to the individual whether they enjoy it or not. You can rant and rave one way or the other but at the end of the day make your own mind up.

If FTD wants to give me yet another version I'd buy it but in the meantime I'm happy to have a choice from what we now have.

[ekenee]

My point about stereo was the opposite. It was in response to Mike saying anyone with a good stereo could tell this crap. As mentioned above you can tell whether you like it or not on anything if that's your normal reference point. A better system lets you hear more but that's a different discussion. The bottom line is it's up to the individual whether they enjoy it or not. You can rant and rave one way or the other but at the end of the day make your own mind up.

If FTD wants to give me yet another version I'd buy it but in the meantime I'm happy to have a choice from what we now have.

Exactly, it is all about a reference point.
The cheap / expensive stereo thing is invalid.
It's all about relative comparisons.

If you play the old mix on a cheap stereo and you hate it,
and then you play the new mix on a cheap stereo and you like it, well you did a like comparison.

Or vice versa.
The key is keeping the comparison stereo the same.
Otherwise people would say, "well you can't appreciate anything on a cheap stereo", which is simply untrue.

[Mike S]

My point about stereo was the opposite. It was in response to Mike saying anyone with a good stereo could tell this crap.......A better system lets you hear more but that's a different discussion.

Actually it is totally relevant to this discussion.

Depending on the equipment you are using, you will hear things very differently. For example I have just finished playing the evening show featured on this release on my car stereo and you know what.....it sounds damn good....without doubt the best representation of this show. So I totally believe all those who say it sounds great through headphones.

It would seem that, in this case, everything depends on what you're playing it on.....which brings us back to the reason for the complaints.....this clearly should not be the case.

(The afternoon show still sounds lousy though....with everything besides Elvis' vocals sounding muddy).