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drjohncarpenter
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Post by drjohncarpenter »

shanebrown wrote:Finally, a quick (lighthearted) note to the Doc. We are having our fair share or run-ins this week, which is a shame. I know you said you're not a Liberace fan, but I'm not so sure. After your defence of him, I've been wondering if perhaps you might be in a mood because your piano-shaped swimming pool might need to be repaired or because you can't find a new set of quilt covers for the piano shaped bed? You never know! :wink:
Shane, I don't agree with you here, but you are a good guy and a GREAT fan, and I am happy you are a member of this forum.


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Post by likethebike »

Greg- Is the album you got "It's Harder Now"? I have that one too. It's a good album but many of the arrangements seem like classic-rock-soul rent-an-arrangements. Pickett is in good form though and it has several nice moments.

Burke has done some of his best work lately. His artistic resurgence is comparable to that of Johnny Cash in the 1990s. Actually almost all the performers named on this thread are worthy to this title in at least a small way. This is why greatest comparisons lead you nowhere I guess.

I also enjoy Whitehouse although it should be said here for those that haven't heard her yet that her voice is an acquired taste.



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genesim
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Post by genesim »

Likethebike,

My problem is Doc calling Croygenic a homophobe.

An apology is in order, and the "backpeddling" is all his by the last post.


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genesim
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Post by genesim »

Go back and read, because he made himself PERFECTLY CLEAR.

To call someone that is bisexual by his own admission a homophobe is someone that is simply not FRICKIN READING.

He did not call him a freak for being a homosexual. Did you even bother to read what he wrote and the "heading off at the pass" answer that he gave to support his view?

Yet he is still implied as being a homophobe.

As for me calling him a freak, I made myself clear on that as well. I wasn't calling him one for being a homosexual. I was saying that he was one because of the little boy example...and so many more like the plastic surgery example made above.

There was no backpeddling on my part. Quite the contrary, I gave an example of my view, and I stick to my assessment.

Jeff, before we start yet another war, please digest what I wrote and at least site your reason for siding with the Doc on this.


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genesim
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Post by genesim »

Jeff D deleting posts???

Just curious about something though. Why is it if you call someone that is gay a "freak", you are automatically labeled a homophobe.


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Post by likethebike »

Did I side with the Doc on this? I don't know I took a side.

My comment was only aimed at two portions of Cryo's comment one was about Liberace's life of "excess" and the criticism on him for not coming out. Point #1 if excess makes you happy, it's not up to me to tell you otherwise. Point #2 You just couldn't "come out" and maintain a career during most of Liberace's lifetime particularly with his demographic. Ellen DeGeneres came out in the 1990s and it was still controversial and national news. It was weird because just like with actors hiding their Jewish origins in the '30s and 40s everybody agreed to look the other way but actually saying it was forbidden. (Not that you should have ever had to look away but it was a different world then.)

My other semi-beef with Cryo's post is equating a relationship with a teenager with pedophilia which is a concept we generally associate with a sexual attack on a pre-pubescent.



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Post by genesim »

Likethebike,

I never said you sided with the Doc, it was a post from Jeff D that I answered to and he deleted it before I was finished posting. So I can understand your response. But notice I said Jeff down at the bottom.

Anyway, sorry, but I don't equate sexual "in the closet" the same as race "in the closet".
Point #1 if excess makes you happy, it's not up to me to tell you otherwise.
Thats not true. You talk about free speech...well he or I or anyone else can criticize...especially when you have the freaky lifestyle that he had. I mean c'mon, is there even a challenge to this? Most people...and even his fans at the LEAST admit to him being "weird".

Also, excess is not just if it makes you happy, if you are hurting others. Not saying Liberace did this...though him having AIDS and keeping it secret COULD have put people in danger.
Point #2 You just couldn't "come out" and maintain a career during most of Liberace's lifetime particularly with his demographic.
My problem is with people that decieve and make you think they are straight. I am not a huge Liberace fan.....yet(this discussion makes me curious), but I would be curious as to how many people he protrayed that image to. To me, it is coward to put on a lie just to save your fans. At some point it is your own business, but again, only if you are not hurting others.
My other semi-beef with Cryo's post is equating a relationship with a teenager with pedophilia
I don't know if he was, I highly doubt it. But he did seem to lack judgement, and I am sure there are a few skeletons in his closet.

BUT lets get back to brass tax. Does any of the stuff before warrant implying Cryogenic is a homophobe or that he is not a "good guy" or "great fan"?? Instead of going against Cryogenic completely, how about aiming a few missles at the Doc. His broad brushtroke of him are totally out of line, and I consider Cryogenic a great addition to the board and it would be a real shame if people were to mislabel him for no damn reason.


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Post by Gregory Nolan Jr. »

"likethebike" wrote:
My comment was only aimed at two portions of Cryo's comment one was about Liberace's life of "excess" and the criticism on him for not coming out. Point #1 if excess makes you happy, it's not up to me to tell you otherwise.
Well, in real life, don't many such decisions ultimately get a thumbs up or thumbs down from the peanut gallery of life? Try as we may to be a totally non-judgemental society, we're always going to have knee-jerk reactions about whether something feels "right." That sense has changed as society has changed, but I have a feeling that the excesses of Liberace and Michael Jackson and Gary Glitter will remain as such for years to come.

That said, you've all got me thinking: is there a key "Best of Liberace" album I should have..or at least try? I've never given him a fair shake. :D

Point #2 You just couldn't "come out" and maintain a career during most of Liberace's lifetime particularly with his demographic.
Fair enough point and his warped behavior is a strong case for what happens when people are closeted.

***********************************
Back on point: Yes, LTB, I was referring to Wilson Picket's "It's Harder Now." I had heard some harsh appraisals (probably of the band) so I was pleasantly surprised at how catchy the songs are, especially by the third or fourth listen. The band does hint at the fact that it was recorded for a noted blues label with some rock leanings.

I'm just kind of sad that such a comeback got relatively little attention and the liner notes have an optimism that is sad when you think he'd die some five years later, with most of the Justin Timberlake's of the country getting way too much attention. Perhaps it's just our super-splintered music world of today that makes it hard for an occasional nod to still-living "oldies."

But as an aside, Soloman Burke's comeback (actually, he never really left) has been heartening in recent years, with high-profile appearances on network late night TV shows. Despite his rather unseemly refrigerator-size body, his great soulful singing seems to hit home all the time.
Last edited by Gregory Nolan Jr. on Tue Sep 11, 2007 4:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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Post by genesim »

Greg,

Great minds think alike...guess we will be both looking on Ebay for some Liberace. :lol:

But I ask all this. Where did Cryo deserve this statement from the Doc?
Now this forum is an anti-gay, Liberace-bashing site?


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Post by Gregory Nolan Jr. »

Well, I assume Doc just missed Cryo's revelation. If he missed it, the context is very different. Let's let it go. :lol:

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Last edited by Gregory Nolan Jr. on Tue Sep 11, 2007 7:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.



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genesim
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Post by genesim »

Or lets call it what it is PURE HATRED.

I don't think it is worth just brushing aside. How many people has Doc done this too, and they are not here posting anymore because of his bile he spewed.

The remarks were totally unwarranted and I refuse to sugar coat it.


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Post by genesim »

Found this in wikipedia where he successfully sued the Daily Mirror.
Liberace sued the newspaper for libel, testified in a London court that he was not a homosexual, had never taken part in homosexual acts, and won the suit.
22,000 in damages he was awarded for simply IMPLYING he was a homosexual. Hmmm goes a little beyond just "living your own life" doesn't it?
How and exactly when he became HIV+ has never been determined, as Liberace vehemently denied that he had AIDS or that he was homosexual. At the end of his life, still convinced that his fans were unaware of his sexuality or the disease he was battling, he confided in Heller his belief that if his fans knew, "that's all they'll remember about me." He is entombed in Forest Lawn - Hollywood Hills Cemetery in Los Angeles.
What a great guy.


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Post by Wim »

Genesim wrote:Found this in wikipedia where he successfully sued the Daily Mirror.

Quote:
Liberace sued the newspaper for libel, testified in a London court that he was not a homosexual, had never taken part in homosexual acts, and won the suit.


I did not have sex with that gentleman!



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Post by drjohncarpenter »

genesim wrote:Just curious about something though. Why is it if you call someone that is gay a "freak", you are automatically labeled a homophobe.
Why indeed ...

Good luck in your quest to find an answer.


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Post by likethebike »

Ok genesim- I didn't see the Jeff reference the first time. I only saw it in the second post which was referring to something deleted which made all this that much more confusing.

Still as far as Liberace's excess, I don't know why I or anyone should care. People get all in a huff about Elvis' drug habit. That doesn't matter to me. That's his business, what matters to me is the work.

Why is it cowardice to want to work in your field? There is no way in the 1950s that anyone could be openly, publicly a homosexual and maintain a career in the public eye. Playing "straight" was what he had to do. Also much of his public behavior could be taken as a tacit admission anyway. It was certainly enough that the gay subculture couldn't miss. This is not Rock Hudson pretending to be America's a #1 ladie's man. Again even here I don't care. Was Rock Hudson good in Seconds and those Doris Day comedies? That's all that matters to me.



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Post by TCB TED »

genesim wrote:
Point #2 You just couldn't "come out" and maintain a career during most of Liberace's lifetime particularly with his demographic.
My problem is with people that decieve and make you think they are straight. I am not a huge Liberace fan.....yet(this discussion makes me curious), but I would be curious as to how many people he protrayed that image to. To me, it is coward to put on a lie just to save your fans. At some point it is your own business, but again, only if you are not hurting others.
I hadn't thought about this anecdote in many years.
Back in 1981, I was in a long line to purchase tickets at the Aladdin Hotel to see Wayne Newton.
A bunch of old ladies gathered around me, thinking I might be Donny Osmond (pretty embarrassing confession, I know :oops: ).
I set them straight on the Donny thing, and then asked them if they'd seen Wayne's show before ... we Canadians are overly polite, donchya know.

The response was, yes, Wayne put on a good show, but the absolute best show to see when in Vegas was Liberace. His fans were ardent supporters in their own way, and I doubt they thought of "Lee" in a sexual way.
For him to come out after 30 years of being in the public eye would have greatly upset his fan base ... blue haired ladies who travel cross country to see their icon once a year.
I, for one, can certainly understand why a person would continue to perpetuate a 30 year old lie. He wasn't a fool ... he understood who came to his shows, and what they wanted to see and believe.
Like him or despise him, he carved a very unique niche in the entertainment world. He was successful at his chosen profession.



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Post by drjohncarpenter »

shanebrown wrote:Doc, you were the one who labelled him a homophobe, weren't you?
Show me where, Shane.


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Post by genesim »

There is no way in the 1950s that anyone could be openly, publicly a homosexual and maintain a career in the public eye.
I am not talking about the 50's. I am talking about the late 80's where Liberace was still in denial. That is why there was such a public backlash, because many did feel they were lied to for many many years.

I do agree that the art is the most important, but Liberace wasn't exactly private, and his tv specials showing his fortune as well as bragging about all his wealth made alot of people further mad when you take his attitude that he in turn didn't tell the truth about his condition.

I mean c'mon for many it was like the rug was pulled right out from underneath him. A similar incident for me is a guy like Eazy E who also didn't let anyone know and then one day he is GONE.


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Post by Joe Car »

genesim wrote:
There is no way in the 1950s that anyone could be openly, publicly a homosexual and maintain a career in the public eye.
I am not talking about the 50's. I am talking about the late 80's where Liberace was still in denial. That is why there was such a public backlash, because many did feel they were lied to for many many years.

I do agree that the art is the most important, but Liberace wasn't exactly private, and his tv specials showing his fortune as well as bragging about all his wealth made alot of people further mad when you take his attitude that he in turn didn't tell the truth about his condition.

I mean c'mon for many it was like the rug was pulled right out from underneath him. A similar incident for me is a guy like Eazy E who also didn't let anyone know and then one day he is GONE.
Didn't the studio force Rock Hudson to marry even though they knew he was gay, so he wouldn't lose his female following? Being the sex-symbol that he was in the fifties and sixties, that would have hurt his career back then for sure.



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Post by Gregory Nolan Jr. »

likethebike wrote: That's his business, what matters to me is the work. ...

...... Again even here I don't care. Was Rock Hudson good in "Seconds" and those Doris Day comedies? That's all that matters to me.
Okay, LTB, you win the award for being so beyond us in even noting (or "caring") about someone's sexuality.... :lol: Round of applause for the best, most earnest House Liberal. :smt023


Just joking. But I get your point. It was painful to see how Wladziu Valentino Liberace (born in 1917 to Polish and Italian parents in Wisconsin) misled his blue-hair fanbase right up to the end. Imagine the horror when they realized that he had sex with men. But it was more than that. The icy, plastic stare, the jewels, the then-rare plastic face and the "are you going to believe them 'lyin' eyes?' stance he took.

So in all seriousness, asking that MOR crowd that was his fanbase to make the transition to the "out" era was a tall order - and he knew his fans and the world he came up in. If Roy Clark or Glen Campbell came out as gay, how would the crowds in Branson take it? Not very well!


Even secretly-gay Freddie Mercury of "Queen" who was pilloried by homosexual rights movement, well knew the stigma of the pop-rock world so much so that he kept his AIDS a bad secret nearly to the end...

I guess there's been some progress on that front as far as the closet goes. Beyond that, reasonable people may disagree about how far to take things..

TCB Ted Revealed:
I hadn't thought about this anecdote in many years.
Back in 1981, I was in a long line to purchase tickets at the Aladdin Hotel to see Wayne Newton.
A bunch of old ladies gathered around me, thinking I might be
Donny Osmond (pretty embarrassing confession, I know :oops: ).
I set them straight on the Donny thing, and then asked them..

Hillarious! You're "Donny" to me for now on, Ted! :lol:
Last edited by Gregory Nolan Jr. on Wed Sep 12, 2007 4:49 am, edited 2 times in total.




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Post by likethebike »

Greg- Would you want someone to put a spotlight on your life and then have someone sum up your life based upon your flaws or in the case of say Liberace's sexuality your tastes? If you fell in love with a woman besides your wife and left your wife for her, would you think it was your employer's business? Would you want the whole world judging you when they have something equally embarrassing in their closets? And in Liberace's case it was something that was only embarrassing because of the lunkheaded mores of a certain culture.



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Post by Gregory Nolan Jr. »

Fair enough point, LTB. But it's the freaky aspects of his persona that rubs even apparently some gays wrong...And I don't totally think the old order was totally lunkheaded, although it did produce ugliness of "the closet," etc.

The notion that we know everything today about what works in society is to me shows a bit of hubris. We're all along for the ride, to be sure, but these things have a way of, well, swinging back and forth in society over the ages. Same-sex behavior existed long ago and always will -but probably so will many of the sanctions and biases against it, for better sometimes or for sometimes worse.

Oh well. So any more Liberace fans want to sell me on his best work? :lol:


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Post by likethebike »

I'm not saying that everything they did was lunkheaded but they did hold many unreasonable prejudices.

Except for flashy clothes, the fact that he met Elvis and played on an episode of Batman, I know very little about Liberace but it seems unreasonable to me to dismiss a person based upon their sex life. Remember the big Goldman revelation that Elvis liked to watch girls wrestle in panties. In Goldman's bizarro view that was supposed to be ultimate evidence of Elvis' sickness and perversion. I don't know what Goldman's sexual preferences were but I bet if you dug them and showed them to another person who did not share them they would look equally odd.



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Post by Gregory Nolan Jr. »

I don't think anyone dismissed him for being gay, but rather a pitifully-closeted weird gay man.

I hear you on Goldman. Elvis' alleged "perversion" probably pailed against that of Goldman himself. That review of Elvis he once wrote barely contained his enthusiasms and self-loathing.

Bully for Liberace for being on TV's Batman ! I'd forgotten that.

Didn't he join Adam West for the "Batusi"? Or play a villain? There was something about the Joker, too... :shock: :D

But if the leggy Catwoman and Batgirl couldn't turn them around, nothing would...! :D




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Post by N880EP »

Well, .... Liberace's gay, others are "bi", maybe others are "confused", & yet others hiding in the closet .............

So what. Who cares.

Let it go guys, live & let live. If there were more tolerance in this world, it would be a far, far better place.

Afterall, "There are many different ways of being Human", indeed.


N8

PS - Btw, the very title / topic of this thread screams ---> SUBJECTIVE OPINION. Carry on, folks.