Mojo Magazine - Elvis: The Last Mystery / Without You!

[MikeFromHolland]

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His daughter said that Jimmy kept on writing songs for Marty Robbins. I was curious what kind of songs he wrote later on. Found this one from 1971, which he wrote for Marty Robbins. It's from the album Marty Robbins Today:

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Today_Marty_Robbins_album

image.jpeg

http://www.allmusic.com/artist/jimmy-sweeney-mn0000129003/credits

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[iplayastrat]

For those of us who can't buy the Mojo magazine in their country: http://www.pressreader.com/uk/mojo-uk/20171001/282308205216127

MOJO is available pretty much everywhere. And that link was already posted on this page three hours ago by colonel snow.

In that case we have two links now. For those who missed the first one, just like me. What's your problem? Just enjoy this wonderful thread, this wonderful discovery. Thank you.

.

Now that made me laugh!

[drjohncarpenter]

Thank you George! I'd love to produce a compilation of Jimmy's recordings, including Without You. We'll see, I guess.

That might be a very special collection, if only a niche product. Bear Family is a label that springs to mind, you should make a pitch to them.

Here are songs Jimmy Sweeney registered with BMI:

SWEENEY JIMMY JR 29984045 BMI

1. BELIEVE IN ME 102585
2. BONGO OLAY 136901
3. BOOGIE WOOGIE JOCKEY 138403
4. BUZZARD AND THE OWL THE 164005
5. CALL MY GAL MISS JONES 170805
6. DON T GO AWAY SENOR 321747
7. GOING DOWN TO THE RIVER 488012
8. GONNA FIND MY SWEETHEART 492105
9. HONEY BEE 581791
10. I PAY WITH EVERY BREATH 674188
11. I VE GOT TO LEAVE THIS TOWN 685459
12. IF YOU AND I COULD BE SWEETHEARTS 707312
13. IT SHOULD BE OVER BY NOW 751166
14. MIDNIGHT HOUR THE 988741
15. MINNIE COME HOME 994093
16. MY WONDERFUL ONE 1045157
17. NO TEARS NO REGRETS 1078913
18. PAT MALONE FORGOT THAT HE WAS DEAD 1157494
19. PRAYING FOR SOMEONE TO LOVE 1198397
20. THESE TEARS 1493146
21. WHAT CHA GONNA DO ABOUT ME 1631329
22. WHEN MY TURN COMES AROUND 1647144
23. WHERE YOU LEAD ME I LL FOLLOW YOU 1658031
24. YOU RE AN ANGEL DISGUISED AS A GIRL 1727249
25. YOU RE GONNA BE SORRY 1728042
26. YOU RE MAKING IT EASY FOR ME TO CHEAT ON YOU 1729258
27. YOU SAY ITS OVER 1733821

http://repertoire.bmi.com/Catalog.aspx?detail=writerid&page=1&fromrow=1&torow=25&keyid=335348

[Mike Windgren]

Hi there!! .

I am reliably informed the complete demo song still exists and was available when it was discussed and considered for use on the Sun box set.

Gaining permission to use from the owner of the audio source who was very sick at the time was an issue and whether fans would accept it on an Elvis release being a non Elvis track.

It was shortlisted for inclusion.

Kevan Budd.

Thanks once again kevanbudd for sharing inside info as you do many times, it´s cool! . Bye for now .

[drjohncarpenter]

I am reliably informed the complete demo song still exists and was available when it was discussed and considered for use on the Sun box set.

Gaining permission to use from the owner of the audio source who was very sick at the time was an issue and whether fans would accept it on an Elvis release being a non Elvis track.

It was shortlisted for inclusion.

Kevan Budd.

Thanks once again kevanbudd for sharing inside info as you do many times, it´s cool!

As other replies on page 1 indicate, this is not quite the story. You should read them, including the comments by the person who made the discovery we're talking about, and wrote about it in MOJO magazine, Guy Lambert. Maybe he deserves a thanks. It's cool!

[kevanbudd]

Hi there!! .

I am reliably informed the complete demo song still exists and was available when it was discussed and considered for use on the Sun box set.

Gaining permission to use from the owner of the audio source who was very sick at the time was an issue and whether fans would accept it on an Elvis release being a non Elvis track.

It was shortlisted for inclusion.

Kevan Budd.

Thanks once again kevanbudd for sharing inside info as you do many times, it´s cool! . Bye for now .

You are welcome Mike, glad you liked it.

Kevan Budd.

[Mike Windgren]

Hi there!! .

I am reliably informed the complete demo song still exists and was available when it was discussed and considered for use on the Sun box set.

Gaining permission to use from the owner of the audio source who was very sick at the time was an issue and whether fans would accept it on an Elvis release being a non Elvis track.

It was shortlisted for inclusion.

Kevan Budd.

Thanks once again kevanbudd for sharing inside info as you do many times, it´s cool!

As other replies on page 1 indicate, this is not quite the story. You should read them, including the comments by the person who made the discovery we're talking about, and wrote about it in MOJO magazine, Guy Lambert. Maybe he deserves a thanks. It's cool!

Yes it´s cool & I gave him a like before your suggestion.....Check it out! .

Still I trust Kevan Budd inside info, he was part of the original project . I think the ill family person of the Phillips was Knox Phillips (Sam Phillips eldest son). I recall back in 2011 when he appeared at an Elvis week event saying he had been very ill lately.... . Bye for now .

"Sam Phillips: The Man Who Invented Rock ‘n' Roll" Documentary Screening Hosted by Peter Guralnick and Knox Phillips 10 a.m. - 12:30 p.m. The Rose Theater, University of Memphis, 470 University St. August 13th, 2011

knox-portrait.jpg

[drjohncarpenter]

As other replies on page 1 indicate, this is not quite the story. You should read them, including the comments by the person who made the discovery we're talking about, and wrote about it in MOJO magazine, Guy Lambert. Maybe he deserves a thanks. It's cool!

Yes it´s cool & I gave him a like before your suggestion.....Check it out!

Wow, nice work.

[Mike Windgren]

Hi there!! .

As other replies on page 1 indicate, this is not quite the story. You should read them, including the comments by the person who made the discovery we're talking about, and wrote about it in MOJO magazine, Guy Lambert. Maybe he deserves a thanks. It's cool!

Yes it´s cool & I gave him a like before your suggestion.....Check it out!

Wow, nice work.

You´re welcome! . Bye for now .

[drjohncarpenter]

Wow, nice work.

You´re welcome!

Your priorities certainly do not match mine, or anyone else's on this topic.

[Mike Windgren]

Hi there!! .

Wow, nice work.

You´re welcome!

Your priorities certainly do not match mine, or anyone else's on this topic.

I´m not interested in matching your priorities.... . Bye for now .

[kevanbudd]

Knowing that’s it’s very likely Jimmy Sweeny on the demo does beg the question of whether it’s also a Sweeny composition.

Some of his material was published (intriguingly) by c&w giant Acuff-Rose, but Peer Music and Red Wortham are the usual companies connected to this tale.

Assuming the picture in Mojo is authentic, the disc bears only the handwritten title and a 78rpm designation. There is no label at all, just the audiodisc batch number 3324.

Help me out on the lyrics. This is what I hear:

Always at twilight
I wish on a star
Ask God to keep you
Wherever you are
There’s time for XX
And time to regret
XX time to be lonely
Without you

Again, Guy, this is excellent work and it wouldn’t have happened without the depth of your knowledge.

Hi George.

According to Marion it would appear he is not the songwriter, as the songwriter was contacted at the time about the singer, but the songwriter did not know the singers identity, describing the singer simply as `a kid hanging around the studio`.

Kevan Budd.

[George Smith]

Knowing that’s it’s very likely Jimmy Sweeny on the demo does beg the question of whether it’s also a Sweeny composition.

Some of his material was published (intriguingly) by c&w giant Acuff-Rose, but Peer Music and Red Wortham are the usual companies connected to this tale.

Assuming the picture in Mojo is authentic, the disc bears only the handwritten title and a 78rpm designation. There is no label at all, just the audiodisc batch number 3324.

Help me out on the lyrics. This is what I hear:

Always at twilight
I wish on a star
Ask God to keep you
Wherever you are
There’s time for XX
And time to regret
XX time to be lonely
Without you

Again, Guy, this is excellent work and it wouldn’t have happened without the depth of your knowledge.

Hi George.

According to Marion it would appear he is not the songwriter, as the songwriter was contacted at the time about the singer, but they did not know the singers identity.

Kevan Budd.

Thanks, Kevan -- and to ask the obvious question, do you know who the songwriter is?

Or even, does anyone know if it's a Peer or a Red Wortham published song?

[GuyLambert]

Knowing that’s it’s very likely Jimmy Sweeny on the demo does beg the question of whether it’s also a Sweeny composition.

Some of his material was published (intriguingly) by c&w giant Acuff-Rose, but Peer Music and Red Wortham are the usual companies connected to this tale.

Assuming the picture in Mojo is authentic, the disc bears only the handwritten title and a 78rpm designation. There is no label at all, just the audiodisc batch number 3324.

Help me out on the lyrics. This is what I hear:

Always at twilight
I wish on a star
Ask God to keep you
Wherever you are
There’s time for XX
And time to regret
XX time to be lonely
Without you

Again, Guy, this is excellent work and it wouldn’t have happened without the depth of your knowledge.

Hi George.

According to Marion it would appear he is not the songwriter, as the songwriter was contacted at the time about the singer, but they did not know the singers identity.

Kevan Budd.

Thanks, Kevan -- and to ask the obvious question, do you know who the songwriter is?

Or even, does anyone know if it's a Peer or a Red Wortham published song?

Hi Guys...I did some pretty thorough research into the songwriting aspect. Acuff Rose doesn't appear to have any paperwork re Without You, although I did uncover an unreleased recording of the Varieteers in their holdings. The Wortham and Peer angles also didn't turn up anything. I also compared Without You to other songs I know Jimmy wrote and interestingly, its not written in a key that he usually used. That may mean he didn't write it, but its certainly not conclusive.

[drjohncarpenter]

Your priorities certainly do not match mine, or anyone else's on this topic.

I´m not interested in matching your priorities....

Or anyone else's for that matter. Your interests are self-evident.

Hi George.

According to Marion it would appear he is not the songwriter, as the songwriter was contacted at the time about the singer, but they did not know the singers identity.

Kevan Budd.

Thanks, Kevan -- and to ask the obvious question, do you know who the songwriter is?

Or even, does anyone know if it's a Peer or a Red Wortham published song?

Hi Guys...I did some pretty thorough research into the songwriting aspect. Acuff Rose doesn't appear to have any paperwork re Without You, although I did uncover an unreleased recording of the Varieteers in their holdings. The Wortham and Peer angles also didn't turn up anything. I also compared Without You to other songs I know Jimmy wrote and interestingly, its not written in a key that he usually used. That may mean he didn't write it, but its certainly not conclusive.

Again, thank you so much for sharing your research here, and alerting us to the marvelous article in the new issue of MOJO. It is a very interesting and important piece of the puzzle regarding Elvis' early career.

As much as I love and respect Marion Keisker's crucially important role, it seems odd that the songwriter of "Without You" would have no idea who cut a demo of his or her new song. There must be more to this.

[GuyLambert]

Your priorities certainly do not match mine, or anyone else's on this topic.

I´m not interested in matching your priorities....

Or anyone else's for that matter. Your interests are self-evident.

Hi George.

According to Marion it would appear he is not the songwriter, as the songwriter was contacted at the time about the singer, but they did not know the singers identity.

Kevan Budd.

Thanks, Kevan -- and to ask the obvious question, do you know who the songwriter is?

Or even, does anyone know if it's a Peer or a Red Wortham published song?

Hi Guys...I did some pretty thorough research into the songwriting aspect. Acuff Rose doesn't appear to have any paperwork re Without You, although I did uncover an unreleased recording of the Varieteers in their holdings. The Wortham and Peer angles also didn't turn up anything. I also compared Without You to other songs I know Jimmy wrote and interestingly, its not written in a key that he usually used. That may mean he didn't write it, but its certainly not conclusive.

Again, thank you so much for sharing your research here, and alerting us to the marvelous article in the new issue of MOJO. It is a very interesting and important piece of the puzzle regarding Elvis' early career.

As much as I love and respect Marion Keisker's crucially important role, it seems odd that the songwriter of "Without You" would have no idea who cut a demo of his or her new song. There must be more to this.

Doc, there's the usual murkiness around the details of the demo's origins. Was Red Wortham involved? If so, couldn't have Sam just called him and asked who the singer / songwriter was? I've also read that it may have just shown up in the Sun mail. That's strange too, because there's no label on the acetate, no contact info. Song pitchers and aspiring artists want to be contacted, so I'm thinking this was something different.

[drjohncarpenter]

Again, thank you so much for sharing your research here, and alerting us to the marvelous article in the new issue of MOJO. It is a very interesting and important piece of the puzzle regarding Elvis' early career.

As much as I love and respect Marion Keisker's crucially important role, it seems odd that the songwriter of "Without You" would have no idea who cut a demo of his or her new song. There must be more to this.

Doc, there's the usual murkiness around the details of the demo's origins. Was Red Wortham involved? If so, couldn't have Sam just called him and asked who the singer / songwriter was? I've also read that it may have just shown up in the Sun mail. That's strange too, because there's no label on the acetate, no contact info. Song pitchers and aspiring artists want to be contacted, so I'm thinking this was something different.

Could someone have just dropped off the unmarked demo at 706 Union with a note? And then the note got misplaced?

There's more to this, but I suspect at the time whatever happened was not seen as unusual by either Sam or Marion.

[kevanbudd]

Knowing that’s it’s very likely Jimmy Sweeny on the demo does beg the question of whether it’s also a Sweeny composition.

Some of his material was published (intriguingly) by c&w giant Acuff-Rose, but Peer Music and Red Wortham are the usual companies connected to this tale.

Assuming the picture in Mojo is authentic, the disc bears only the handwritten title and a 78rpm designation. There is no label at all, just the audiodisc batch number 3324.

Help me out on the lyrics. This is what I hear:

Always at twilight
I wish on a star
Ask God to keep you
Wherever you are
There’s time for XX
And time to regret
XX time to be lonely
Without you

Again, Guy, this is excellent work and it wouldn’t have happened without the depth of your knowledge.

Hi George.

According to Marion it would appear he is not the songwriter, as the songwriter was contacted at the time about the singer, but they did not know the singers identity.

Kevan Budd.

Thanks, Kevan -- and to ask the obvious question, do you know who the songwriter is?

Or even, does anyone know if it's a Peer or a Red Wortham published song?

Hi George,

According to Sam in a 1956 magazine interview, the writer was a Prisoner in the Tennessee state Pen.
It appears that neither Marion or Sam's account seem to indicate Sweeney as the writer.



Kevan Budd.

[George Smith]

Thanks, Kevan, that's a clipping I've not seen before.

And thanks, Guy, for the clarification.

It should be noted that even if a publisher claims a song they often won't actually copyright it until they're sure it's going to be released as a record.

This is what Guralnick's notes said in Last Train to Memphis:

Guralnick.jpg

So there seems to be a common thread of Nashville State Prison running through a number of the stories, certainly that's where Sam probably received the disk.

Possible scenario:
a) There were proven solid connections between Jim Bulleit (of Bullet Records and Sun Records), Red Wortham (publisher of The Prisonaires' songs) and Sam Phillips
b) Red's uncle is a prison guard at Nashville and in early 1954 a prisoner tells him about a song he's written having observed the success of The Prisonaires
c) Red's uncle gives it to Red hoping he'll be able to make a success of the song as he's already done with "Walking In The Rain" (maybe the uncle is hoping for a financial cut)
d) Red asks Jim if he knows anyone who could knock off a quick demo in a sort of Prisonaires' style
e) Jim suggests they use Jim Sweeney (who used to record for Bullet Records but is now with Acuff-Rose-owned Hickory Records)
f) Sweeney tapes a quick demo at the end of his February session in Nashville
g) Red leaves the demo for Sam at Nashville (perhaps it's intended for The Prisonaires to sing?) and he collects it on 8 May
h) Sam takes it back to Memphis and listens to it later that month
i) Sam is fascinated by the demo -- but is he drawn to the song itself or is it Sweeney's voice that captivates him (understandably)

I love this thread!

[drjohncarpenter]

Thanks, Kevan, that's a clipping I've not seen before.

And thanks, Guy, for the clarification.

It should be noted that even if a publisher claims a song they often won't actually copyright it until they're sure it's going to be released as a record.

This is what Guralnick's notes said in Last Train to Memphis:




So there seems to be a common thread of Nashville State Prison running through a number of the stories, certainly that's where Sam probably received the disk.

Possible scenario:
a) There were proven solid connections between Jim Bulleit (of Bullet Records and Sun Records), Red Wortham (publisher of The Prisonaires' songs) and Sam Phillips
b) Red's uncle is a prison guard at Nashville and in early 1954 a prisoner tells him about a song he's written having observed the success of The Prisonaires
c) Red's uncle gives it to Red hoping he'll be able to make a success of the song as he's already done with "Walking In The Rain" (maybe the uncle is hoping for a financial cut)
d) Red asks Jim if he knows anyone who could knock off a quick demo in a sort of Prisonaires' style
e) Jim suggests they use Jim Sweeney (who used to record for Bullet Records but is now with Acuff-Rose-owned Hickory Records)
f) Sweeney tapes a quick demo at the end of his February session in Nashville
g) Red leaves the demo for Sam at Nashville (perhaps it's intended for The Prisonaires to sing?) and he collects it on 8 May
h) Sam takes it back to Memphis and listens to it later that month
i) Sam is fascinated by the demo -- but is he drawn to the song itself or is it Sweeney's voice that captivates him (understandably)

I love this thread!

That scenario is a little crazy, but it's the only one that seems to fit with Jimmy Sweeney's voice being on the disc. However, would the acetate Sam picked up bear a blank label? Or can we assume this was a real quick job done by Red with not a lot of care?

[George Smith]

The scenario is more than a little crazy, John -- it is mental (as we say in the UK).

It is the Elvis version of the magic bullet.

Here's the label-less disk as published by Guy Lambert in Mojo.

Disk.png

[GuyLambert]

The scenario is more than a little crazy, John -- it is mental (as we say in the UK).

It is the Elvis version of the magic bullet.

Here's the label-less disk as published by Guy Lambert in Mojo.

Disk.png

Ohhh Boys...the acetate was not one-sided.

John Bakke was kind enough to send me photos of the acetate, so I could see if there were any traceable markings or #s on it. It seems there isn't. I investigated the acetate batch #3324 with no luck.

But it occurred to me to ask John if the flip side was smooth or grooved. Sometimes acetates are two-sided. He sent me a photo and there was a song on the flip! Well you can imagine the thoughts running through my head.

John said he had forgotten about that and that Marion had mentioned / played it to him at some point. Turns out its another demo...of a country novelty song sung by a white singer in the vein of Malcolm Yelvington called "No Gas." I couldn't find a trail on that tune either. But still very interesting. I'm thinking this was a song pitch demo, since no artists are listed. I also think that different writers wrote Without You and No Gas.

[George Smith]

Ohhh Boys...the acetate was not one-sided.

John Bakke was kind enough to send me photos of the acetate, so I could see if there were any traceable markings or #s on it. It seems there isn't. I investigated the acetate batch #3324 with no luck.

But it occurred to me to ask John if the flip side was smooth or grooved. Sometimes acetates are two-sided. He sent me a photo and there was a song on the flip! Well you can imagine the thoughts running through my head.

John said he had forgotten about that and that Marion had mentioned / played it to him at some point. Turns out its another demo...of a country novelty song sung by a white singer in the vein of Malcolm Yelvington called "No Gas." I couldn't find a trail on that tune either. But still very interesting. I'm thinking this was a song pitch demo, since no artists are listed. I also think that different writers wrote Without You and No Gas.

Oh, Lord.

I think I'm going to bed!

But, thank you!

[mike edwards66]

Help me out on the lyrics. This is what I hear:

Always at twilight
I wish on a star
Ask God to keep you
Wherever you are
There’s time for XX
And time to regret
XX time to be lonely
Without you

Always at twilight
I wish on a star
Ask God to keep you
Wherever you are

I'll cherish the moments
We shared and yet
There’s time for keeping
And time to regret

It's time to be lonely
Without you

[drjohncarpenter]

The scenario is more than a little crazy, John -- it is mental (as we say in the UK).

It is the Elvis version of the magic bullet.

Here's the label-less disk as published by Guy Lambert in Mojo.

Ohhh Boys...the acetate was not one-sided.

John Bakke was kind enough to send me photos of the acetate, so I could see if there were any traceable markings or #s on it. It seems there isn't. I investigated the acetate batch #3324 with no luck.

But it occurred to me to ask John if the flip side was smooth or grooved. Sometimes acetates are two-sided. He sent me a photo and there was a song on the flip! Well you can imagine the thoughts running through my head.

John said he had forgotten about that and that Marion had mentioned / played it to him at some point. Turns out its another demo...of a country novelty song sung by a white singer in the vein of Malcolm Yelvington called "No Gas." I couldn't find a trail on that tune either. But still very interesting. I'm thinking this was a song pitch demo, since no artists are listed. I also think that different writers wrote Without You and No Gas.

Well, that's very interesting indeed. So, it sounds like Red Wortham prepared for Sam Phillips a "quickie" demo package of a ballad and an uptempo number ... that sounds familiar:

Red Wortham Sample Demos - May 1954
"Without You" / "No Gas"

I won't even get into the idea of whether, for any reason, Philips played "No Gas" for Elvis at the 6-26-1954 tryout.

I will, however, mention a little, tiny long shot notion about "No Gas." Sonny Burgess' second Sun single in early 1957 included a B-side he wrote with Jack Clement called "Ain't Got A Thing" which included the verse:

I got a car, ain't got no gas
I got a check, but it won't cash
I got a woman, ain't got no class