And now, the end is near ...

[Narek]

Thank you PEP!
Any decision on the Musician's corner?

[Bodie]

Great news PEP,

I have an idea.

Why dont these two individuals have there own section on the board and let them have their own private war of words and the rest of us can just be spectators, im sure that will be amusing

[Renan]

All this story because of 2 users???? Is this what I understood??? So, next time they cause any confusion, give each one 30 days of suspension.

After 30 days, if it still happens, suspend for 60 days. This is the way if you do not want to remove them permanently from this board. But someday they might learn the lesson and may finally learn to live in the civilization.

At least the good news is that the MB will not shut down.

[MB280E]

At least the good news is that the MB will not shut down.

You´ve got that right! Noone could shut me down...!


Sincerely MB280E

[Renan]

At least the good news is that the MB will not shut down.

You´ve got that right! Noone could shut me down...!


Sincerely MB280E

LOL!

[ColinB]

Well, I [meaning me] am happy to hear that you [meaning the moderator] have resolved this [meaning the problem] without closing it [meaning the MB] down.

Well done [meaning you] !

I [meaning me] think we [meaning us] have been told !




[That's enough of that now (meaning you) - The Management (meaning us)]

[PEP]

Well, I [meaning me] am happy to hear that you [meaning the moderator] have resolved this [meaning the problem] without closing it [meaning the MB] down.

Well done [meaning you] !

I [meaning me] think we [meaning us] have been told !




[That's enough of that now (meaning you) - The Management (meaning us)]

I was just trying to cover all bases Colin as best I could.

I see your trying to do the same thing

Nevertheless, it does look funny when you put it that way

PEP

[Steve_M]

I was retired from being a fan of this MB, but posting once maybe twice in the past 5 months means I'm technically semi-retired now.

I spent many, many hours A, contributing to this board along with so many others, and B trying to save it from a cyber black hole a couple of years ago when the old server company nearly sucked if down their cyber plug hole.

I have detested the way the MB was slowly going.

Since leaving here as a regular I've realised how much it had cost me to participate on here. Thousands of pounds! I don't mind a couple of quid here and there, but I'd avoided earning thousands because I was just here too much. Some might like to ponder that one themselves.
But bascially, going back to work and doing overtime instead of sitting in front of the PC has done wonders for my bank account. Circa £4K extra for me in just 5 months!
And people ask me to return to posting here regulaly - well they can't afford me and I can't afford it myself now.

PEP and Willem, you have my blessing to do whatever you feel needs doing. If it goes, it goes, but reading one or two posts I think a freeze would be more apt as a gesture of goodwill to those that gave their time to contribute, I think their work should be left for all to read if that is what they want.

This is FECC's house and you're all invited to the party.
Most houses have rules and you are asked to respect them.
You don't have to - you can go to someone elses party instead.

Free speech.
When you come to my house I'd ask you to take your shoes off in the entrance hall.
I've yet to hear anyone staying put outside shouting that I'd ignored their right to wear shoes whenever they want.
Same goes for speech, there are some things I wouldn't want said in my house, same thing applies, go back to your own house or someone elses if you really feel you must say somethings. The important thing here is that no one is stopping you saying anything, they are just stopping you from saying it in one particular place, so your right to free speech is unaffected. Shut your PC off and say it as loud as you want.

I didn't leave here to go earn more money doing overtime, I found the benefit after I'd made the decision. But I didn't like the abuse I got from a small minority, I didn't mind home truths but I just found it too much to ignore the lies being told about me.
The easiest thing when there's half a dozen people who've decided to pick on one is for the one to leave not the half dozen - so I just upped and took some bits and pieces belonging to me with me. I figured I was wrong because the odds said so. It is unlikely, just playing the odds for a sec, for one peson to be right and everyone else to be wrong.

As some will know, I've still found 30 minutes a week to glance at the odd thread and drop a PM to anyone I felt I could help with some info or other and that's turned into a good balance really.
When I did post a couple of times Rob made me realise that I was wrong to do so, and I thank him for his points he made, but I think he thought I was no longer a fan of Elvis, not FECC MB.

I guess to sum up, whatever PEP and Willem decided the best thing to do could be for members to adapt to it rather than insist on things staying as they are.

Now I've used my weekly FECC quota up.

PS, Go to "Search" and in the "Search for Author:" files type in "elvissessions.com" or "stan from tintane" or "Steve_M" and select each time "display results as" > "posts" and see the results. There is most likely more members as well. No doubt all earning more lol.

[DarrylMac]

Steve,

Nice to see you back. I just wanted to ask - how's your health? I remember you saying you were having scans etc.

There are still lots of good members here, who post constuctively, positively, and dare i say it, humourously. I look forward to my time here, and often learn something new.

[PEP]

I was retired from being a fan of this MB, but posting once maybe twice in the past 5 months means I'm technically semi-retired now.

I spent many, many hours A, contributing to this board along with so many others, and B trying to save it from a cyber black hole a couple of years ago when the old server company nearly sucked if down their cyber plug hole.

I have detested the way the MB was slowly going.

Since leaving here as a regular I've realised how much it had cost me to participate on here. Thousands of pounds! I don't mind a couple of quid here and there, but I'd avoided earning thousands because I was just here too much. Some might like to ponder that one themselves.
But bascially, going back to work and doing overtime instead of sitting in front of the PC has done wonders for my bank account. Circa £4K extra for me in just 5 months!
And people ask me to return to posting here regulaly - well they can't afford me and I can't afford it myself now.

PEP and Willem, you have my blessing to do whatever you feel needs doing. If it goes, it goes, but reading one or two posts I think a freeze would be more apt as a gesture of goodwill to those that gave their time to contribute, I think their work should be left for all to read if that is what they want.

This is FECC's house and you're all invited to the party.
Most houses have rules and you are asked to respect them.
You don't have to - you can go to someone elses party instead.

Free speech.
When you come to my house I'd ask you to take your shoes off in the entrance hall.
I've yet to hear anyone staying put outside shouting that I'd ignored their right to wear shoes whenever they want.
Same goes for speech, there are some things I wouldn't want said in my house, same thing applies, go back to your own house or someone elses if you really feel you must say somethings. The important thing here is that no one is stopping you saying anything, they are just stopping you from saying it in one particular place, so your right to free speech is unaffected. Shut your PC off and say it as loud as you want.

I didn't leave here to go earn more money doing overtime, I found the benefit after I'd made the decision. But I didn't like the abuse I got from a small minority, I didn't mind home truths but I just found it too much to ignore the lies being told about me.
The easiest thing when there's half a dozen people who've decided to pick on one is for the one to leave not the half dozen - so I just upped and took some bits and pieces belonging to me with me. I figured I was wrong because the odds said so. It is unlikely, just playing the odds for a sec, for one peson to be right and everyone else to be wrong.

As some will know, I've still found 30 minutes a week to glance at the odd thread and drop a PM to anyone I felt I could help with some info or other and that's turned into a good balance really.
When I did post a couple of times Rob made me realise that I was wrong to do so, and I thank him for his points he made, but I think he thought I was no longer a fan of Elvis, not FECC MB.

I guess to sum up, whatever PEP and Willem decided the best thing to do could be for members to adapt to it rather than insist on things staying as they are.

Now I've used my weekly FECC quota up.

Thanks Steve, well said

Interesting how you put it in so many words, if people come to your home they should respect your grounds rules, an I agree. Because this is a home that is being shared with everyone we just ask that everyone follow a few simple rules of the house to help keep the peace for everyone concerned.

PEP

[ColinB]

...This is FECC's house and you're all invited to the party.
Most houses have rules and you are asked to respect them.
You don't have to - you can go to someone elses party instead.

Free speech.
When you come to my house I'd ask you to take your shoes off in the entrance hall.
I've yet to hear anyone staying put outside shouting that I'd ignored their right to wear shoes whenever they want.

Nice to see you posting, Steve !

Just a couple of points.

If your guests objected to removing their shoes, you'd ask them to leave.

You wouldn't threaten to knock your whole house down, would you ?

On a personal note, I would feel it kinda insulting to my guests if I required them to remove their shoes when visiting me.

If my decor was so delicate [white carpets or whatever] that it needed this, then it would be my choice of furnishing that was at fault.

Not my guests footwear !

[Elton]

I take my hat...er, i mean shoes off to ya!
PEP very nice move..on your part to keep the MB up and running..
for those who can't seem to follow da rules,
...let' em take their ball and go home.

[Steve_M]

...This is FECC's house and you're all invited to the party.
Most houses have rules and you are asked to respect them.
You don't have to - you can go to someone elses party instead.

Free speech.
When you come to my house I'd ask you to take your shoes off in the entrance hall.
I've yet to hear anyone staying put outside shouting that I'd ignored their right to wear shoes whenever they want.

Nice to see you posting, Steve !

Just a couple of points.

If your guests objected to removing their shoes, you'd ask them to leave.

You wouldn't threaten to knock your whole house down, would you ?

On a personal note, I would feel it kinda insulting to my guests if I required them to remove their shoes when visiting me.

If my decor was so delicate [white carpets or whatever] that it needed this, then it would be my choice of furnishing that was at fault.

Not my guests footwear !

Fault ? Not so sure that's true.

You see it's irrelevant what your house rules are. If guests want to come into your house that badly then they'll have to adhere to the house rules.

Or exercise their right to go to another house altogether.

It doesn't matter if you state guests have to wear a blindfold and hop on one leg. Provided they respect that it's your house then that's what they'll have to do if they want to come in.

The FECC house has it's own rules. You agree to respect those rules if you want in or you can say "Not for me, thanks" and go elsewhere.

Everyone who signed up for a memebership of this site agreed and accepted the terms. If they no longer wish to play by those terms then they should go. They've breached the contract in effect.

[Tony Trout]

I have no idea what's been going on here on the boards to warrant PEP creating this type of thread but I hope that all gets resolved soon. I'd hate to see this board shut down because of some members who can't get along....

[Peter Franks]

The house-analogy is specious because it suggests that valuable content can be found inside regardless of the presence of other members. That is not the case for this message board: take away the members and the board loses all its value. A more realistic analogy is that FECC owns an art gallery that imposes certain rules upon its artists. Don’t follow the rules and your art will not be displayed. But don’t forget: no artists, no art, no reason to visit -- FECC needs its members as much as its members need FECC.

The problem clearly lies not just with the members – plenty of whom are often petty, childish and immature, let’s not deny it – but with the impenetrable anonymity of the internet. Clearly the ideal solution is for all members to adopt certain posting habits that contribute to a peaceful posting environment but I think it’s obvious to all that this simply will not happen. It is nonetheless astonishing to think that some people simply don’t have the brains or the maturity to simply not post; to state their case in a civil manner and otherwise refrain from getting entangled in petty arguments. Indeed, there are many instances on this board where members should be ashamed of how they behave. People should not bait, they should not make things personal, and they should not carry over arguments from one thread into another. But this will not change.

The solution as I see it, therefore, is not to change the moderators or even the members, but the platform of the board itself. The current software, phpBB, seems to have very limited flexibility not only for menial tasks (PEP recently stated that he cannot merge threads, for example, where posts from one thread are added at the end of another) but also for repercussive means. I suggest that the owners of FECC invest in software like vBulletin. The software allows users to easily report a specific post they find offensive, but more importantly it allows moderators to punish misbehaving members with infractions: “Infractions carry a point total that is awarded to users. When a user reaches pre-determined point levels, the user is given infraction groups. Infraction groups are set up to restrict the permissions of users. The system can also be configured to institute automatic bans based on points or number of infractions received.” In other words, PEP would no longer have to carry the burden of personally determining who gets to stay and who has to leave. When a user breaks a rule PEP can give that user a warning and an infraction. When a user has too many infraction points (s)he automatically gets banned from the board for a predetermined amount of time (say, a week). Too many infractions and they get permanently banned. Additionally, infraction points can automatically be removed after a certain period of time. vBulletin also allows moderators to post “user notes” on each member’s profile to easily keep track of what offenses each member has committed. And considering that this board is a little too much to handle for some members, vBulletin allows users to have “ignore lists,” where names can be added and posts by those people are automatically invisible to that user! Don’t like my posts, for example? Add Peter Franks to your ignore list and you’ll never have to read any of my drivel again!

There are only two downsides to this solution. The first is that it costs $160 for a perpetual license. FECC does have advertisements already so I don’t know how much money they earn from that, but it’s a significant sum to pay nonetheless. However, vBulletin does allow for advertising within vBulletin threads and forums as well – no more pop-ups! Furthemore, vBulletin allows members to make monetary contributions to FECC that can even be rewarded with forum benefits (say, with larger avatars). The second is that the current board (including posts and member accounts) is not likely to transfer to the new format, but I’m sure it can be saved as a standalone link.

In any case, shutting down the board is not a solution; it is giving up. If FECC does insist on closing the board, perhaps they can give or sell the board to another website, so not all is lost.

PS: As a side note, this kind of shadowy finger pointing is frustrating. Steve_M stopped posting because of abuse from “a small minority,” Tom in North Carolina temporarily stopped making his “In the Basket” threads because “folks” were heckling him via PM, and now PEP reveals the source of his frustration is “a few members” (two, apparently). What good does it do to mention these people unless we know who they’re talking about? Give us a name and we can ignore those people in future. The greatest punishment possible on a message board is having your posts ignored.

[Steve_M]

That, Peter, is an example of why i no longer post on here as a regualr contributor.

I would have hoped that that was your opinion, and that the rest was the reason(s) for forming it.

I would consider, as it appears to me other members do, that the content of the posts already made on this MB form something that members consider valuable. When PEP suggested that the site would be closed and removed others suggested freezing it at least in order to retain the valauble posts already made.

Whether my houise is empty of anything of any value, I at least own the house and should be able to have house rules.

I believe that this house of FECC is owned by those who own it, and whether or not you believe it to contain anything of value or not, it should not detract from the owners being able to set house rules for it.

[ColinB]

The greatest punishment possible on a message board is having your posts ignored.

Tell me about it...............

[Spellbinder]

The greatest punishment possible on a message board is having your posts ignored.

Tell me about it...............

Tell you about what?

[ColinB]

The greatest punishment possible on a message board is having your posts ignored.

Tell me about it...............

Tell you about what?

Blowed if I can remember now............

[Steve_M]

Pete, it may be that the phpbb software isn't lacking fully, just that this installation of it is.

There are add-ons readily available for merging threads in phpbb.

The instances of vBulletin you have experienced may also have a Mod pack version where such features were included.
My forum has phpbb installed but I altered it via a mod pack so that there were 148 added features. It is however still a phpbb at heart.

The pain is when there's an upgrade. The phpbb gets upgraded but then some of the mods need to be adjusted as well.

[Vissie]

The solution as I see it, therefore, is not to change the moderators or even the members, but the platform of the board itself. The current software, phpBB, seems to have very limited flexibility not only for menial tasks (PEP recently stated that he cannot merge threads, for example, where posts from one thread are added at the end of another) but also for repercussive means. I suggest that the owners of FECC invest in software like vBulletin. The software allows users to easily report a specific post they find offensive, but more importantly it allows moderators to punish misbehaving members with infractions: “Infractions carry a point total that is awarded to users. When a user reaches pre-determined point levels, the user is given infraction groups. Infraction groups are set up to restrict the permissions of users. The system can also be configured to institute automatic bans based on points or number of infractions received.” In other words, PEP would no longer have to carry the burden of personally determining who gets to stay and who has to leave. When a user breaks a rule PEP can give that user a warning and an infraction. When a user has too many infraction points (s)he automatically gets banned from the board for a predetermined amount of time (say, a week). Too many infractions and they get permanently banned. Additionally, infraction points can automatically be removed after a certain period of time. vBulletin also allows moderators to post “user notes” on each member’s profile to easily keep track of what offenses each member has committed. And considering that this board is a little too much to handle for some members, vBulletin allows users to have “ignore lists,” where names can be added and posts by those people are automatically invisible to that user! Don’t like my posts, for example? Add Peter Franks to your ignore list and you’ll never have to read any of my drivel again!

There are only two downsides to this solution. The first is that it costs $160 for a perpetual license. FECC does have advertisements already so I don’t know how much money they earn from that, but it’s a significant sum to pay nonetheless. However, vBulletin does allow for advertising within vBulletin threads and forums as well – no more pop-ups! Furthemore, vBulletin allows members to make monetary contributions to FECC that can even be rewarded with forum benefits (say, with larger avatars). The second is that the current board (including posts and member accounts) is not likely to transfer to the new format, but I’m sure it can be saved as a standalone link.

In any case, shutting down the board is not a solution; it is giving up. If FECC does insist on closing the board, perhaps they can give or sell the board to another website, so not all is lost.

Software such as vBulletin needs technically savvy people to install and run it (in addition to licensing fees). If you're looking for purchased software, Invision is another way to go (in addition to vBulletin, which has been mentioned above).

phpBB can be maintained by anyone. I've thrown up dozens of phpBB boards for people. Pick a layout and you're on your way.

I've run many message boards and I tend to slightly disagree with Pep on the value he places on certain members. Bad grapes can ruin a fine wine.

[Peter Franks]

That, Peter, is an example of why i no longer post on here as a regualr contributor.

I would have hoped that that was your opinion, and that the rest was the reason(s) for forming it.

Could you elaborate on this because I don’t understand what you mean. What is an example of why you no longer post?

I would consider, as it appears to me other members do, that the content of the posts already made on this MB form something that members consider valuable. When PEP suggested that the site would be closed and removed others suggested freezing it at least in order to retain the valauble posts already made.

I agree with you, and as I stated in my post, deleting the forum would be a folly: at least preserve the content on the site (“freezing it,” as you put it) or give another site access to the board/database. I never suggested that the current content is not valuable (quite the contrary) – in fact, I was one of the few who urged you to continue working on finding lost posts after the previous server crash.

Whether my houise is empty of anything of any value, I at least own the house and should be able to have house rules.

I believe that this house of FECC is owned by those who own it, and whether or not you believe it to contain anything of value or not, it should not detract from the owners being able to set house rules for it.

But FECC are not generating content; members do not visit the forum to see what FECC have to say. I’m not arguing against forum rules and I think the rules are fine as they are (although they could be more specific). I don’t have a problem with swearing, for example, but if FECC don’t want me to swear I’ll happily refrain. I’m not saying that FECC (should) have no jurisdiction over the board and certainly they can make any rules they want and expect users to follow those rules – I never stated otherwise. Indeed, in my art gallery analogy, I pointed out that the gallery owner can still require artists to follow the rules before their art is displayed. I am merely stressing the fact that the FECC forum thrives on its members’ content. Had this been a cinema, then FECC could do what they want, because they are generating the content and the members are only passively participating; as it is, FECC relies on members to make the board interesting. What good is a board without members?

Pete, it may be that the phpbb software isn't lacking fully, just that this installation of it is.

There are add-ons readily available for merging threads in phpbb.

The instances of vBulletin you have experienced may also have a Mod pack version where such features were included.
My forum has phpbb installed but I altered it via a mod pack so that there were 148 added features. It is however still a phpbb at heart.

Then the administrators should install expansion packs for phpBB. I mentioned vBulletin because I’ve visited well-functioning sites running their software and because infractions are listed in the manual, suggesting it is a default feature. phpBB, vBulletin, Invision or something else, the conclusion is the same: the moderators are not currently equipped to subjectively, efficiently, and effectively deal with members who are breaking the rules and disturbing the peace. Verbal warnings are clearly not working (nor are they expected to in an online environment) and threatening to shut down the board is ludicrous.

[Gregory Nolan Jr.]

Well said, Peter. The willingness of some to throw people overboard has usually been not without a cost to the content of the board. After all, we are by definition Elvis fans and nearly all bring something of use to the table - just by being here.

And overall, I reiterate that no matter Pep's initial expressions of frustration (who knew?) , I must say that this board (as a regular user) is nowhere near as out of hand as it used to be - and even then, I rather liked the free-wheeling nature. And that's due to the few adjustments instituted and the hard, mostly unthanked actions of moderators here -as well as the fact that by and large, Elvis fans behave themselves, even accounting for the occasional elbow to the ribs..

And I like your technology upgrade suggestion, Peter. I've long that that it's a pity that so many duplicative threads can be created about, say, the latest Elvis movie DVD or FTD, etc. By the time you get a hold of it, or buy it, you have to wade through multiple threads just to get a sense of what felow fans said about it - and most do not even do this, and start yet another thread "What do you think of such and such FTD..? The result is a rather cluttered board with very little clarity.

Steve M: I always liked your posts, quite frankly, but never understood your "I'm Leaving" sagas - must of us missed or were unaware of your troubles with some here and mostly just remembered your more timely contributions.

Likewise with most other who declare that they are "leaving" because of this or that. Most of us take a "glass half-full perspective" and don't get caught up in one's apparent personal sagas. Can anyone honestly or readily identify "Elvissessions" (or Stan's) reason for leaving? Not really and less so as each week rolls by...

We miss their contributions but the conversation ultimately moves on. It's our loss -and theirs -that their unique voice is voluntarily missing. In the end, such "I'm Leaving" decisions ultimately are most noticed - and felt - by the person who is leaving.

But collectively, we are diminished by the absence of unique and veteran fans who elect to opt out (or are thrown out!) for whatever reason. And that's too bad in our hopes to create a stimulating, informed, diverse and yes, occasionally funny and even somewhat nasty conversation about Elvis or what have you, however admirable or practical the justification may be for such abandonment or house-cleaning.

[Delboy]

As a side note, this kind of shadowy finger pointing is frustrating ....... and now PEP reveals the source of his frustration is “a few members” (two, apparently). What good does it do to mention these people unless we know who they’re talking about? Give us a name and we can ignore those people in future.

Peter,

Well they haven't posted on this thread so you and me are safe ... plus another couple of thousand members.

BTW, I'm sure most members have the capability of 'selective viewing'. It's not difficult to ignore the 5% of crap to appreciate the 95% of valuable input (my ratio is the other way around ).

[Steve_M]

Steve_M wrote:
Whether my houise is empty of anything of any value, I at least own the house and should be able to have house rules.

I believe that this house of FECC is owned by those who own it, and whether or not you believe it to contain anything of value or not, it should not detract from the owners being able to set house rules for it.

But FECC are not generating content; members do not visit the forum to see what FECC have to say. I’m not arguing against forum rules and I think the rules are fine as they are (although they could be more specific).

FECC are generating content by providing the forum through which content can exist. Like the painter who decides what paint goes where on the canvas FECC have paid for and provide. No canvas no painting.

If this is a party of guests that FECC have invited for free into a property they own and pay for so that those guests can talk amongst themselves about Elvis then I don't see that it matters if FECC are abscent from the conversation because they are out working elswhere in order to generate the funds required to pay for the house hosting the party. It's their house and if they say "No smoking" then no smoking it is. I cannot see how anyone can justify being allowed to smoke and decide their own rules just because they are participating in the conversation and FECC are not.

You say you are all for rules being in place, but I'm unsure why you think there's a difference because FECC dont contribute like other membres do.

Are you suggesting that we should have rules but that the memebers should decide what those rules are and not FECC ?

Hmm.....

If you are then that's a good suggestion, but I can't help think that its' a bit like wanting to redecorate FECC's house because they are never in it and the members are and they are the ones that have to tolerate the decor.

Okay, maybe there's nothing exactly wrong with that, but I'd feel a tad uncomfortable with it. I think I'd accidentally splash you with paint and then point at you when FECC came home.

Steve M: I always liked your posts, quite frankly, but never understood your "I'm Leaving" sagas - must of us missed or were unaware of your troubles with some here and mostly just remembered your more timely contributions.

I didn't like many of my posts hence I'm slowly removing all the content of my old ones. I thought they were okay-ish at the time I posted them, but with many (not all) I regretted doing so a little later on. I dearsay i'll feel the same again about the ones I've posted in here in a few weeks time.
I had one "I'm leaving saga" which was explained as not so much leaving as I was going to retire from being the regular contributor I had been as I was no longer a fan anymore of FECC. Many will recall that I had always claimed to be a fan of the fans more than I was of Elvis himself. But the only other occassion(s) were where I'd said if things carried on the way they were at the time then I would be leaving, but I think many others also felt the same and i wanted things to stop going the way they were and let people know that members would leave if things carried on. They stopped and members stayed. I hardly call that a leaving saga.

Likewise with most other who declare that they are "leaving" because of this or that. Most of us take a "glass half-full perspective" and don't get caught up in one's apparent personal sagas. Can anyone honestly or readily identify "Elvissessions" (or Stan's) reason for leaving? Not really and less so as each week rolls by...

They both left without giving a reason. If they were being harrassed via PM (just as an example) how or why would anyone be genareally aware?
Maybe they felt they shouldn't have to give more time to explaining why or maybe they felt no one deserved to be told why.
Those who dont give a reason you puzzle over, and those that do you say you dont wanna get involved in their "personal saga". Some people leave because of problems they might have outside of the MB, i don't see it as being an issue just because they choose not to involve people on here.
People leave and are quiet about it and people say they dont understand, and yet when people say they are going and why pothers say they should shut up and leave without saying anything.

We miss their contributions but the conversation ultimately moves on. It's our loss -and theirs -that their unique voice is voluntarily missing. In the end, such "I'm Leaving" decisions ultimately are most noticed - and felt - by the person who is leaving.

I felt it, but in a positive way. I don't see how it is a loss at all. I've managed to gain so much because of it. (See my earlier post).

But collectively, we are diminished by the absence of unique and veteran fans who elect to opt out (or are thrown out!) for whatever reason. And that's too bad in our hopes to create a stimulating, informed, diverse and yes, occasionally funny and even somewhat nasty conversation about Elvis or what have you, however admirable or practical the justification may be for such abandonment or house-cleaning.

But your hopes are not necessarily that of others. It is (as always) a small minority that controls the negative side of the board. I could list half a dozen people on here that if they were on fire I wouldn't piss on to put it out.
But that's also bringing in the other point i mentioned earlier. If I've got half a dozen people on here that made my life a misery then it's only fair to ask myself if it's not me whose wrong and the 6 are right as opposed to me being right and all the other 6 are independantly wrong.
Anyway, if it is a minority who cause people like me to stop being regular posters AND you claim it is all others loss - where are you all when the sh*t kicks off ? Nowhere. So I can understand others wanting to leave after hearing 6 people bringing the MB down and everyone else giving it the stoney silence.

I was a moderator on here once. I feel PEP's pain.
Here's the dilema:
You moderate and have to get involved in personal wars that spill out onto the MB.
Each "party" involved has got their "followers" those that agree with their side of the war.
You've also got a third of the board who dont side either way.
You can't ignore it coz its' bringing the board down and the third of members who have no interest are looking at you to do something about it.
If you choose one over the other you then get the others followers saying what a crap job you're doing and they PM you constantly with why they think you are wrong.
If you chose the other way then you get it all from the others.

It's suposed to be that PEP or whoever mods makes a decsion and you all agree to accept it even if you think it was wrong and then move on.
But no, people feel thay have to challenge the mods decision relentlessly and hold it against them the next time something crops up.

Who needs it?