Loving You New Release on Blu Ray

[musiclover1979]

It is off topic, but anyway.
Jailhouse Rock was not shot using anamorphic lenses.
It was shot in the academy ratio (1.37:1) and cropped for 2.40:1 (CinemaScope).
Anyway, it's not true cinemascope, it's using the Superscope technique (even though the original movie poster says Cinemascope).

David has covered the subject in this previous topic:

"Jailhouse Rock used fake Cinemascope":

http://www.elvis-collectors.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=54058&hilit=

[ForeverElvis]

It is off topic, but anyway.
Jailhouse Rock was not shot using anamorphic lenses.
It was shot in the academy ratio (1.37:1) and cropped for 2.40:1 (CinemaScope).
Anyway, it's not true cinemascope, it's using the Superscope technique (even though the original movie poster says Cinemascope).

David has covered the subject in this previous topic:

"Jailhouse Rock used fake Cinemascope":

http://www.elvis-collectors.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=54058&hilit=

Actually I don't think that's quite correct. It was not "fake" Cinemascope.

Jailhouse Rock was shot with the 35mm Anamorphic Panavision lens for an aspect ratio of 2.35:1, new at the time, as indicated prior and in this excerpt from "The Hollywood Story" by Joel Waldo Finler.

Jailhouse Rock Filming - The Hollywood Story excerpt pg 35 - by Joel Waldo Finler.jpg

From the History of Panavision: https://www.panavision.com/history?page=1

The special lenses necessary to project CinemaScope and other wide-screen films were expensive, difficult to use, and in short supply. The Panavision Super Panatar® – the "Gottschalk Lens" – featured a variable prism that projectionists could adjust to support any anamorphic format from 2.66:1 to 1.33:1 with a turn of a single knob. This Panavision attachment allowed scores of theaters to adopt Cinemascope projection without costly equipment modifications. This combination of technical superiority and lower cost catapulted Panavision to the top echelon of optical technology for film projection.

Encouraged by rapid success, Panavision introduced the Micro Panatar lens later that year. Before this innovation, studios filming with anamorphic cameras often had to run a second camera to produce a “flat” version for theaters that were not equipped for CinemaScope. The Micro Panatar allowed film labs to easily create non-anamorphic release prints from anamorphic negatives. This process could also create 35mm reductions from 65mm as well as a reverse process to blow up 35mm anamorphic to a 70mm roadshow print. And even though Panavision custom-built each lens to exacting specifications, the ability to work quickly and accurately kept costs low and established the Panavision reputation for technological excellence and individualized service.

What does all this mean?
It means JR was shot on 35mm using a widescreen anamorphic Panavision lens for an aspect ratio projected at 2.35:1. The film titles included a credit for Cinemascope AND Panavision (a popular practice at the time). The film stock was the same stock that NOT using an anamorphic lens would project at the Academy ratio of 1.37:1, just like all widescreen films that would follow as the movie companies stopped using the CinemaScope specific lenses that Love Me Tender was filmed using, for instance.

Jailhouse Rock

JR 1957 - CinemaScope title credit (VHS Pan and Scan Image 1983).jpg

JR 1957 - Lenses by Panavision title credit (VHS Pan and Scan Image 1983).jpg

King Creole
Thank You for the correction, as you said it was not shot using a VistaVision camera. My memory farted on that one.

King Creole logo

King Creole opening paramount logo.jpg

Loving You logo in VistaVision

Loving You VistaVision logo.jpg

VistaVision logo 2.jpg

VistaVision logo 3.jpg

This means that King Creole was shot with a regular 35mm lens in 1.37:1 flat format then matted to 1.85:1 when projected.
too bad it was not shot in VistaVision.

[musiclover1979]

Thank you for clearing that up, Anthony!
It is an interesting read.

There's a lot of confusion regarding movie aspect ratios.

Regarding King Creole:

The DVD review on Elvis Australia [https://www.elvis.com.au/presley/reviews/dvd-review-king-creole.shtml] says:
"King Creole is another Elvis film presented on DVD with a smashing anamorphic transfer, framed at 1.78:1, which is close to its 1.85:1 theatrical ratio."

Further on it says:
"R4 vs R1 ... Both releases are basically identical, and the UK release is the same as ours. One source says that the intended ratio is 1.96:1, which does fall into the VistaVision range. One hopes that our 1.78:1 transfer reveals more of the upper and/or lower frame, rather than zooming in for 16x9 to hide the mattes, thereby losing information on the left and right sides."

This 2004 book by Doug Pratt:
https://books.google.no/books?id=DTUw1SDQECoC&pg=PA663&lpg=PA663&dq=king+creole+aspect+ratio&source=bl&ots=NBzrZ7cuGv&sig=CC_Db21UCZMMz9-4GpCTuKTkPhQ&hl=no&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi1vLP9oMzfAhUJ_iwKHTmkAEM4ChDoATACegQIAhAB#v=onepage&q=king%20creole%20aspect%20ratio&f=false%20says

says that it is in letterbox in a ratio of about 1.66:1 & enhanced for 16:9.

The Letterbox term is, in my opinion, an often misunderstood term.
In my opinion the first dvd release of Viva Las Vegas was in the proper Letterbox format, as it was non anamorphic within the 4:3 format.

[davide]

It is off topic, but anyway.
Jailhouse Rock was not shot using anamorphic lenses.
It was shot in the academy ratio (1.37:1) and cropped for 2.40:1 (CinemaScope).
Anyway, it's not true cinemascope, it's using the Superscope technique (even though the original movie poster says Cinemascope).

David has covered the subject in this previous topic:

"Jailhouse Rock used fake Cinemascope":

http://www.elvis-collectors.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=54058&hilit=

Actually I don't think that's quite correct. It was not "fake" Cinemascope.

Jailhouse Rock was shot with the 35mm Anamorphic Panavision lens for an aspect ratio of 2.35:1, new at the time, as indicated prior and in this excerpt from "The Hollywood Story" by Joel Waldo Finler.

Jailhouse Rock Filming - The Hollywood Story excerpt pg 35 - by Joel Waldo Finler.jpg

From the History of Panavision: https://www.panavision.com/history?page=1

The special lenses necessary to project CinemaScope and other wide-screen films were expensive, difficult to use, and in short supply. The Panavision Super Panatar® – the "Gottschalk Lens" – featured a variable prism that projectionists could adjust to support any anamorphic format from 2.66:1 to 1.33:1 with a turn of a single knob. This Panavision attachment allowed scores of theaters to adopt Cinemascope projection without costly equipment modifications. This combination of technical superiority and lower cost catapulted Panavision to the top echelon of optical technology for film projection.

Encouraged by rapid success, Panavision introduced the Micro Panatar lens later that year. Before this innovation, studios filming with anamorphic cameras often had to run a second camera to produce a “flat” version for theaters that were not equipped for CinemaScope. The Micro Panatar allowed film labs to easily create non-anamorphic release prints from anamorphic negatives. This process could also create 35mm reductions from 65mm as well as a reverse process to blow up 35mm anamorphic to a 70mm roadshow print. And even though Panavision custom-built each lens to exacting specifications, the ability to work quickly and accurately kept costs low and established the Panavision reputation for technological excellence and individualized service.

What does all this mean?
It means JR was shot on 35mm using a widescreen anamorphic Panavision lens for an aspect ratio projected at 2.35:1. The film titles included a credit for Cinemascope AND Panavision (a popular practice at the time). The film stock was the same stock that NOT using an anamorphic lens would project at the Academy ratio of 1.37:1, just like all widescreen films that would follow as the movie companies stopped using the CinemaScope specific lenses that Love Me Tender was filmed using, for instance.

Jailhouse Rock

JR 1957 - CinemaScope title credit (VHS Pan and Scan Image 1983).jpg

JR 1957 - Lenses by Panavision title credit (VHS Pan and Scan Image 1983).jpg

King Creole
Thank You for the correction, as you said it was not shot using a VistaVision camera. My memory farted on that one.

King Creole logo

King Creole opening paramount logo.jpg

Loving You logo in VistaVision

Loving You VistaVision logo.jpg

VistaVision logo 2.jpg

VistaVision logo 3.jpg

This means that King Creole was shot with a regular 35mm lens in 1.37:1 flat format then matted to 1.85:1 when projected.
too bad it was not shot in VistaVision.

http://www.widescreenmuseum.com/widescreen/wingcs8.htm
Scroll to the last part.

David

[musiclover1979]

Thanks, David!

I was right, after all, in writing that Jailhouse Rock was done in the Superscope technique.

No special lenses involved. Just cropping the 35mm image to the Cinemascope aspect ratio.

[ForeverElvis]

Thanks, David!

I was right, after all, in writing that Jailhouse Rock was done in the Superscope technique.

No special lenses involved. Just cropping the 35mm image to the Cinemascope aspect ratio.

I did more research on this and enlisted some help from Bob Furmanek at the http://www.3dfilmarchive.com/ and Jack Theakston at the https://www.hometheaterforum.com/ both, experts on the subject, their comments are in RED.

Jack Theakston wrote about JAILHOUSE ROCK on July 2, 2012 at the Home Theater Forum:

With JAILHOUSE ROCK, my guess is that Avon (the independent producers) planned it to be flat/1.85, but when MGM picked the film up, they wanted 'scope, hence the extraction, which was done at Panavision. The CinemaScope credit on the opening titles was contractual and totally bogus.
Note the extraction area AND hard matte in this comparison:

1957 - Jailhouse Rock - flat 1.37 trailer showing 2.35 extracted image by Panavision for Release Print - resize.jpg

The frames that Bob posted I made a composite from a flat trailer to a ‘scope one. As is still common, flat and ‘scope versions of trailers are made to fit the format of the show they’re run at. For the flat trailer, they used the full-aperture neg.

As stated, JAILHOUSE ROCK was shot Flat, exposing a 1.37 area and composed to be cropped to 1.85. This also applies to KING CREOLE.

An example of cropping the 1.37 image in the nude scene from A FISH CALLED WANDA. if left full frame, it just isn't funny:

fish_called_wanda_open_matte - resize.jpg

and another example from TOUCH OF EVIL (1958):

Touch-of-Evil-Comparison 1.37 to 1.85 - resize.jpg

As mentioned, KING CREOLE was not shot in VistaVision, but LOVING YOU was.The VistaVision format is a double width frame that exposes at about 1.50-1, but again, is intended to be reduced down to a 4-perforation, 35mm image and cropped to 1.85-1.

VistaVision diagram - Bob Furmanek 3Dfilmarchive - resize.jpg

Back to JAILHOUSE ROCK, “SuperScope” “Super 35” and “extracted ‘scope” are all the same idea, and what MGM did with JAILHOUSE ROCK. Panavision judiciously cropped the film for a 2.35-1 negative. Many lower-budget B&W ‘scope films were shot this way as a cost-saving technique, usually so that the studio could double two ‘scope films together on a booking.

The colorized VHS contained the un-cropped 1.37 flat image, with a little on each side cut off. (This could be the difference between the Academy Ratio of 1.37 and the TV ratio - closer to 1.33) please see this comparison where you can see the additional parts of the image at the top and bottom.

..

..

Looking at them both, I think the 2.35 image is the more pleasing composition.

Regarding the Elvis Films that were shot non-anamorphic:

Non-Anamorphic, Spherical
GI Blues
Kid Galahad
Girls Girls Girls
Fun in Acapulco
Harum Scarum
Frankie And Johnny
Paradise, Hawaiian Style
Easy Come, Easy Go
Change of Habit

From haineshisway (Bruce) and Bob Furmanek at the Home Theater Forum:

Every film on your main list above was shown in 1.85, which was and is the standard film ratio. None of them were shown in the US at ANY other ratio EVER. When Bob or Jack says something was "protected" for 1.66 they are saying that the cameraman protected up to that ratio so that no mics or anything were in the frame. But they were never shown any other way than 1.85 - that's how they were composed, that's how they were projected.

Bruce is correct; all non-anamorphic Elvis films are 1.85:1.

I hope this information is useful for everyone - aspect ratios can get very complicated. The surprise for me was about how the Jailhouse Rock release prints were composed.

[musiclover1979]

Thank you very much, Anthony!
I guess this will end the aspect ratio discussion.

The big surprise for me was that 9 of his widescreen movies were shot non-anamorphic.

[ForeverElvis]

Thank you very much, Anthony!
I guess this will end the aspect ratio discussion.

The big surprise for me was that 9 of his widescreen movies were shot non-anamorphic.

you are very welcome.

Resulting from the research the non-anamorphic list is actually 11:

Non-Anamorphic, Spherical (shot flat, composed for 1.85:1)

Jailhouse Rock (prints extracted by Panavision to 2.35, originally shot flat, composed 1.85)
King Creole
GI Blues
Kid Galahad
Girls Girls Girls
Fun in Acapulco
Harum Scarum
Frankie And Johnny
Paradise, Hawaiian Style
Easy Come, Easy Go
Change of Habit

Elvis On Tour could join this list, I am looking for more information.

[L Ray]

Today was going to be the release day. Now we have silence. Nobody is talking. Sad to see this one turn out to be just a lot of wishful thinking. Wondering if we all were conned. I don't know.

[ForeverElvis]

I asked screen archives about Loving You on Blu-ray, their response:

“Good morning,

We have contacted the label and they have stated that the title was marked as delayed well over two months ago and now has no imminent date of expected release. It is still in the works but may be several more months before it will be ready for release.

Sincerely,

Katie
Screen Archives Entertainment
PO BOX 550
Linden, VA 22642”

This is clearly disappointing, the press release was premature. I hope it’s not a stupid rights issue, it’s a 62 year old film for goodness sake.

Davide - any additional info?





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[L Ray]

Thanks ForeverElvis. Any news is better than no news. Gives me some hope for something, maybe.

[TINML]

Maybe they want to tie it in to the anniversary of his passing?

[ForeverElvis]

Thank you very much, Anthony!
I guess this will end the aspect ratio discussion.

The big surprise for me was that 9 of his widescreen movies were shot non-anamorphic.

you are very welcome.

Resulting from the research the non-anamorphic list is actually 11:

Non-Anamorphic, Spherical (shot flat, composed for 1.85:1)

Jailhouse Rock (prints extracted by Panavision to 2.35, originally shot flat, composed 1.85)
King Creole
GI Blues
Kid Galahad
Girls Girls Girls
Fun in Acapulco
Harum Scarum
Frankie And Johnny
Paradise, Hawaiian Style
Easy Come, Easy Go
Change of Habit

Elvis On Tour could join this list, I am looking for more information.

my thanks to Brian Husar at the Home Theatre forum for this information on Elvis On Tour:

https://www.hometheaterforum.com/community/threads/aspect-ratio-documentation.313215/page-344#post-4688972

Elvis On Tour was like Woodstock, projected 2.35 with the 1.85 sequences window boxed in the 2.35 frame, sometimes the single panel would open up to full 2.35, but it was all designed to be within the 2.35 frame.

They were shot 16mm with the idea of editing for multi screen and presenting in 2.35. If you read the book Dale Bell, the associate producer of Woodstock put together, he goes into detail, that on Woodstock they came up with special mattes for the single, double, and triple frames and those negatives were rephotographed in an optical camera with a Techniscope 2 perf pull down. Elvis On Tour, the single frame sometimes stretches to 2.35, sometimes it's, 1.85, and sometimes it goes to 1.37. That's just single panal. The blu rays of Woodstock and Elvis On Tour really show it, as the images are kept within the 2.35 frame.

So, Elvis On Tour joins the list of Elvis Films shot flat with an intended aspect ratio composed for 1.85 or 2.35.

Non-Anamorphic, Spherical (shot flat, composed for 1.85:1)

Jailhouse Rock (prints extracted by Panavision to 2.35, originally shot flat, composed 1.85)
King Creole
GI Blues
Kid Galahad
Girls Girls Girls
Fun in Acapulco
Harum Scarum
Frankie And Johnny
Paradise, Hawaiian Style
Easy Come, Easy Go
Change of Habit
Elvis On Tour (special mattes for the single (1.37), double (1.85), and triple (2.35) frames, these negatives were rephotographed in an optical camera to convert to a 2.35 Techniscope image for projection)

[Ep1965]

A friend of mine called Screen Archives yesterday and asked about the delay. They said the problem I’d getting the rights to the songs in the film. They are still working on doing this and are hopefull it will get released. They did say it wouldn’t be released until late summer or fall. If they get the rights to the songs.

[L Ray]

A friend of mine called Screen Archives yesterday and asked about the delay. They said the problem I’d getting the rights to the songs in the film. They are still working on doing this and are hopefull it will get released. They did say it wouldn’t be released until late summer or fall. If they get the rights to the songs.

Thanks for that info. We can still hope then.

[sweetangeline]

If they get the rights to the songs.

that can be very difficult sometimes

[ForeverElvis]

A friend of mine called Screen Archives yesterday and asked about the delay. They said the problem I’d getting the rights to the songs in the film. They are still working on doing this and are hopefull it will get released. They did say it wouldn’t be released until late summer or fall. If they get the rights to the songs.

You just know someone with the rights to “lonesome cowboy” is going to ask for too much and the new 4K scan will remain unreleased. Hang on to those dvds everyone.

This is so disappointing. I wonder why it would take to late Summer to release if they clear up song clearances?

I hope they DON’T release the Blu-ray with any songs cut due to rights issues. If it were GALOLTD - how would Deke be discovered, the film would be pretty strange ending after the stage version of Loving You! Or if Loving You were the issue then cutting the opening credits, the farm and stage performance of Loving You! Imagine if it were Mean Wiman Blues - cutting his, arguably, best film moment!


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[TINML]

A friend of mine called Screen Archives yesterday and asked about the delay. They said the problem I’d getting the rights to the songs in the film. They are still working on doing this and are hopefull it will get released. They did say it wouldn’t be released until late summer or fall. If they get the rights to the songs.

You just know someone with the rights to “lonesome cowboy” is going to ask for too much and the new 4K scan will remain unreleased. Hang on to those dvds everyone.

This is so disappointing. I wonder why it would take to late Summer to release if they clear up song clearances?

I hope they DON’T release the Blu-ray with any songs cut due to rights issues. If it were GALOLTD - how would Deke be discovered, the film would be pretty strange ending after the stage version of Loving You! Or if Loving You were the issue then cutting the opening credits, the farm and stage performance of Loving You! Imagine if it were Mean Wiman Blues - cutting his, arguably, best film moment!


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Hopefully it's Hot Dog, they can just overdub a medley of Don't Be Cruel/Teddy Bear over that scene.

It'd be an improvement

[sweetangeline]

Imagine if it were Mean Wiman Blues - cutting his, arguably, best film moment!

...that sounds like a new topic...best film moment?? Interesting...must think on that one??

[ForeverElvis]

Still not available for preorder......
I hope it isnt cancelled.

Don't worry .. definitely not cancelled...

David

Any news on this Blu Ray release David ?
what is the delay ?

the original notice wet our appetite, an update would be appreciated.
Thank you

[Dan_T]

Couldn't they, whoever remastered Jailhouse Rock for Blu Ray release, just have taken the time to frame it so you could see all of Elvis when he was in full frame in the original release, instead of cutting below his knees out ? (At certain points) He was dancing, why cut out his feet ?
It may sound silly, but it's the reason I've not bought the Blu Ray.

To me, it was almost like the "pan and scan" days of VHS release'.

[Dan_T]

Thank you, Forever Elvis, for the above post...I'd rather watch the 1.37.1 than the 1.85.1 of A Touch Of Evil ... with today's TV screens getting bigger I don't think you'd miss the faux widescreen.

[ForeverElvis]

Update from Screen Archives on Loving you blu ray:

Good morning,

The label has not provided any further updates at this time.

Sincerely,

Katie
Screen Archives Entertainment
PO BOX 550
Linden, VA 22642
540-635-2575


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[Mike Windgren]

Hi there!! .

Update from Screen Archives on Loving you blu ray:

Good morning,

The label has not provided any further updates at this time.

Sincerely,

Katie
Screen Archives Entertainment
PO BOX 550
Linden, VA 22642
540-635-2575

Thanks for the info!. It looks like now we will get King Creole on bluray before Loving You.... . Bye for now .

[ForeverElvis]

I contacted Screen archives. My question and their response;

Good afternoon,

The last update we received was back in April that this title was in the restoration process. No further updates have been given at this time.

Sincerely,

Katie
Screen Archives Entertainment
PO BOX 550
Linden, VA 22642
540-635-2575

Sent: Thursday, Aug 22, 2019 2:48 PM
To: Screen Archives Entertainment
Subject: Re: Loving You 1957

Hi
Do you have any more information on the delayed Loving You (1957) Blu-Ray that Redwind was supposed to release back in January?

I’ve read that unfortunately Mr. Redwind died in January and that this is a reason for the release delay. I’ve also read that there are music publishing issues with the films’ songs and/or score.

Can you provide any more detail and if this 4K restoration will be released or is it in limbo forever?

Thank you.

Regards,
Anthony



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