Off Topic Messages

If you thought Elvis fans were narrow minded....

Fri Aug 05, 2011 1:24 am

I visited the forum on a Little Richard site, and posted what I thought was a great idea: a bio/documentary/concert flick about Richard, along the lines of what Taylor Hackford did with Chuck Berry. Most of the responses were about "what a prick Chuck Berry is", "he insults his fans", blah blah blah. And if anyone dares mention Elvis or the Beatles over there, watch out. I was surprised, Richard has always praised Chuck as a performer and songwriter, and of course Elvis and the Beatles were greatly influenced by him, but it appears that Richard's die-hard fans think he is the only one worth listening to, the others mere pretenders to the throne. From what I've seen on this forum, Elvis fans are much more open minded about music. I know that's not the stereotype - although I could imagine listening to Elvis 24/7 easier than Richard. For starters, he's got a much bigger catalog to choose from.

Re: If you thought Elvis fans were narrow minded....

Fri Aug 05, 2011 2:14 am

I don't think Elvis was influenced by Little Richard.



When you are on an artists board it's very common for the posters to talk them up in comparison to other artists.

That why i find it ridiculous when some people on this board say that Elvis is always talked up as vastly superior to other artists.

What do they expect this is an Elvis message board.
Last edited by brian on Fri Aug 05, 2011 8:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Re: If you thought Elvis fans were narrow minded....

Fri Aug 05, 2011 2:27 am

brian wrote:I don't think Elvis was influenced by Little Richard.



When you are on an artists board it's very common for the posters to talk up them up in comparison to other artists.

That why i find it ridiculous when some people on this board say that Elvis is always talked up as vastly superior to other artists.

What do they expect this is an Elvis message board.
Maybe they need a road map because apparently they forgot where they are? :roll:

Re: If you thought Elvis fans were narrow minded....

Fri Aug 05, 2011 2:32 am

brian wrote:I don't think Elvis was influenced by Little Richard.
.


That's funny

Re: If you thought Elvis fans were narrow minded....

Fri Aug 05, 2011 2:35 am

KiwiAlan wrote:
brian wrote:I don't think Elvis was influenced by Little Richard.
.


That's funny


Nothing funny about it.

We've discussed this before and i've pointed out you are wrong.

Re: If you thought Elvis fans were narrow minded....

Fri Aug 05, 2011 6:43 am

brian wrote:
KiwiAlan wrote:
brian wrote:I don't think Elvis was influenced by Little Richard.
.


That's funny


Nothing funny about it.

We've discussed this before and i've pointed out you are wrong.


That's even funnier!

25% of Elvis second album were Lttle Richard songs - and he had no unfluence!.

One direct influence was Dirty, Dirty Feeling.

Re: If you thought Elvis fans were narrow minded....

Fri Aug 05, 2011 6:55 am

KiwiAlan wrote:
brian wrote:
KiwiAlan wrote:
brian wrote:I don't think Elvis was influenced by Little Richard.
.


That's funny


Nothing funny about it.

We've discussed this before and i've pointed out you are wrong.


That's even funnier!

25% of Elvis second album were Lttle Richard songs - and he had no unfluence!.

One direct influence was Dirty, Dirty Feeling.


That doesn't mean Little Richard was an influence.

All it means was Elvis needed songs to fill an album and he like Richard's music enough to cover it.

I don't hear Dirty, Dirty feeling as having a Little Richard influence.

Re: If you thought Elvis fans were narrow minded....

Fri Aug 05, 2011 7:26 am

Richard was a gospel singer, before he jumped to the new music. Elvis heard that style since he was little. The album cuts aren't much after you've heard Long Tall Sally live from Robinsonville, Ark. in 56. Before singing, he credited Richard's original record and finally said "It's his song!" As though apologzing in advance for what he was about to do.

Which tells me that Elvis could deliberately hold back at will. Strange. And intriguing.

rjm

Re: If you thought Elvis fans were narrow minded....

Fri Aug 05, 2011 7:42 am

James Brown was influenced by Richard a lot. Elvis liked his songs and style but he did them his own way.

Re: If you thought Elvis fans were narrow minded....

Fri Aug 05, 2011 8:19 am

Bob Dylan wanted to be Little Richard in high school. Had a band called the Golden Chords, played piano...but I can't imagine Bob ever sounding like Richard. Paul McCartney was pretty good at doing Richard's songs with the Beatles, though. Long Tally Sally, Lucille and Ooh My Soul come to mind. The Everlys recorded some of his songs, but rearranged them to fit their style. Really like their version of Lucille.

Re: If you thought Elvis fans were narrow minded....

Fri Aug 05, 2011 9:18 am

Richard was not in any way a formative influence on Elvis but one could argue that the rasp Elvis employed on tracks like "Jailhouse Rock" and "Hound Dog" was influenced by Richard in the way that the Beatles and acts like the Byrds influenced each other back and forth in the 1950s. So one element of Elvis' style was influenced by Richard IMO.

Lonely- I like all your posts but Elvis fans are not any more narrow minded than other fans. Some of it, that you see on this board, seems to come out when some writers feel the need to dump on Elvis in preference of their favorites. And when you do that in a forum that places of Elvis as a favorite, it doesn't play exceptionally well. However, I think what you see on the Richard board and what you see in many of the lesser posts in forums like this is a cultural thing. Many writers do this in their writing. They make the case for one artist or one group of artists or style of artists by dismissing other artists. And also in the need to paint "X" artists as the greatest of all time. In fact the hyperbole of a lot of criticism sets up a model where if an artist isn't "the greatest" than that artist is sh[*][*]. It kind of sets up the idea of pop music as full contact spectator sport. In the tradition of the winner take all sports culture, it also sets up an ideal that completely belittles the value of good work. The way the history is so often framed the legitimate value of a work of a lesser performer like say Ricky Nelson is disregarded simply because Ricky Nelson is not the Beatles, Bob Dylan or Elvis. And it's only worth really talking about the Big Boys.

Re: If you thought Elvis fans were narrow minded....

Fri Aug 05, 2011 1:24 pm

I see absolutely no Little Richard influence in Elvis.

Re: If you thought Elvis fans were narrow minded....

Sat Aug 06, 2011 5:32 am

likethebike wrote:Richard was not in any way a formative influence on Elvis but one could argue that the rasp Elvis employed on tracks like "Jailhouse Rock" and "Hound Dog" was influenced by Richard in the way that the Beatles and acts like the Byrds influenced each other back and forth in the 1950s. So one element of Elvis' style was influenced by Richard IMO.

Lonely- I like all your posts but Elvis fans are not any more narrow minded than other fans. Some of it, that you see on this board, seems to come out when some writers feel the need to dump on Elvis in preference of their favorites. And when you do that in a forum that places of Elvis as a favorite, it doesn't play exceptionally well. However, I think what you see on the Richard board and what you see in many of the lesser posts in forums like this is a cultural thing. Many writers do this in their writing. They make the case for one artist or one group of artists or style of artists by dismissing other artists. And also in the need to paint "X" artists as the greatest of all time. In fact the hyperbole of a lot of criticism sets up a model where if an artist isn't "the greatest" than that artist is sh[*][*]. It kind of sets up the idea of pop music as full contact spectator sport. In the tradition of the winner take all sports culture, it also sets up an ideal that completely belittles the value of good work. The way the history is so often framed the legitimate value of a work of a lesser performer like say Ricky Nelson is disregarded simply because Ricky Nelson is not the Beatles, Bob Dylan or Elvis. And it's only worth really talking about the Big Boys.

No, the point of my post being, despite the reputation of Elvis fans being obsessive or narrow in their musical taste, I have found that they are much more open than fans of certain other artists. Little Richard fans seem to have a chip on their shoulders because THEIR GUY is not universally referred to as "the king of rock and roll". I think their need to make the case has been encouraged by the man himself - anytime he's on tv, he's telling us that he is the true originator of rock and roll, that nobody else was playing rock and roll before he came along. I love Richard, but he is a grade A ham, I don't think he stands alone at the birth of rock and roll. I love his music, but he's not alone at the top of my list of greatest rockers. Fats Domino, Chuck Berry, Elvis, Carl Perkins, Bo Diddley, all these guys deserve credit for their contributions, of course I have also heard Richard praise these guys as giant talents, when asked his favorite Chuck Berry song in "Hail Hail Rock 'n' Roll", he says "all of them!" And he also deserves credit for recognizing the talent in people like James Brown, Jimi Hendrix and Billy Preston, all of whom worked in his band at one time or another.

Re: If you thought Elvis fans were narrow minded....

Sat Aug 06, 2011 7:38 am

intheghetto wrote:
Lonely Summer wrote: Fats Domino, Chuck Berry, Elvis, Carl Perkins, Bo Diddley, all these guys deserve credit for their contributions, of course I have also heard Richard praise these guys as giant talents, when asked his favorite Chuck Berry song in "Hail Hail Rock 'n' Roll", he says "all of them!" And he also deserves credit for recognizing the talent in people like James Brown, Jimi Hendrix and Billy Preston, all of whom worked in his band at one time or another.


Totally agree. I guess the question has always been why did Elvis get the lion's share when it came to 'the king of rock and roll' stuff? The obvious points are that he was probably the most "camera ready" of the bunch. By today's standards he would be a GQ model no question. I also think it's because Elvis was, for lack of a better definition, the most animated performer and made a huge impact with that. He played a little guitar, but his music didn't rely on it. He left that to Scotty, Bill, and DJ. Elvis wasn't tied down to an instrument the way Chuck Berry and Richard or Fats were. Jerry Lee Lewis did a good job of moving around on stage, but Elvis probably had the most freedom out of all of them. The other thing that kept Elvis at the forefront of all his 50s contemporaries was that his music evolved over the years. It may not have been what the fans wanted necessarily, but his material did change. He may have done all of his 50s hits when he performed '69 through '70 but he still had a well of current stuff to draw from. Little Richard fans, Chuck Berry fans, and the rest of them went to see them play to hear the original 50s songs. Unlike Elvis, and as great as they were/are, they were trapped in the era that made them legendary.
The great thing about Elvis' stage performances was like you said, he could play an instrument, but he didn't rely on it, which meant that he could surprise his audience by playing the piano or the guitar out of nowhere. He had enough room to do whatever he wanted to do, but Little Richard, Chuck Berry, Fats Domino and Jerry Lee Lewis lacked the breathing room. They always stuck to what they knew, which was limiting. Also, Elvis was very interested in all sorts of music to the point where he learned songs in other languages for his movie roles. He was well rounded and loved music.

Re: If you thought Elvis fans were narrow minded....

Sat Aug 06, 2011 10:17 am

Lonely Summer wrote:
likethebike wrote:Richard was not in any way a formative influence on Elvis but one could argue that the rasp Elvis employed on tracks like "Jailhouse Rock" and "Hound Dog" was influenced by Richard in the way that the Beatles and acts like the Byrds influenced each other back and forth in the 1950s. So one element of Elvis' style was influenced by Richard IMO.

Lonely- I like all your posts but Elvis fans are not any more narrow minded than other fans. Some of it, that you see on this board, seems to come out when some writers feel the need to dump on Elvis in preference of their favorites. And when you do that in a forum that places of Elvis as a favorite, it doesn't play exceptionally well. However, I think what you see on the Richard board and what you see in many of the lesser posts in forums like this is a cultural thing. Many writers do this in their writing. They make the case for one artist or one group of artists or style of artists by dismissing other artists. And also in the need to paint "X" artists as the greatest of all time. In fact the hyperbole of a lot of criticism sets up a model where if an artist isn't "the greatest" than that artist is sh[*][*]. It kind of sets up the idea of pop music as full contact spectator sport. In the tradition of the winner take all sports culture, it also sets up an ideal that completely belittles the value of good work. The way the history is so often framed the legitimate value of a work of a lesser performer like say Ricky Nelson is disregarded simply because Ricky Nelson is not the Beatles, Bob Dylan or Elvis. And it's only worth really talking about the Big Boys.

No, the point of my post being, despite the reputation of Elvis fans being obsessive or narrow in their musical taste, I have found that they are much more open than fans of certain other artists. Little Richard fans seem to have a chip on their shoulders because THEIR GUY is not universally referred to as "the king of rock and roll". I think their need to make the case has been encouraged by the man himself - anytime he's on tv, he's telling us that he is the true originator of rock and roll, that nobody else was playing rock and roll before he came along. I love Richard, but he is a grade A ham.


You are just now realizing this?


I was on this message board several years ago reading comments about who was the greatest, most innovative and important artists of all time.

It was basically a three artist discussion about who was greater and who had accomplished more Elvis, The Beatles or Michael Jackson.

Attendance records, hit singles, hit albums and pop culture impact were discussed for all three.

The Michael Jackson fans in particular were very annoying and they were dismissive of Elvis' achievements mainly due to ignorance.
While hyping MJ up.

In my experience Elvis fans are more willing to give other artists credit for their achievements than a lot of fans of other artists are.

Certainly more than some die hard Jackson fans are.

Re: If you thought Elvis fans were narrow minded....

Sat Aug 06, 2011 8:12 pm

intheghetto wrote:
brian wrote: Elvis basically invented what Jackson, Madonna, Usher and several others incorporate regularly into their acts. The pop/rock musical dance routine in "Jailhouse Rock" was the original, and maybe the first of it's kind. Almost every pop star now has a choreographed dance routine in their videos, and it wasn't because Michael Jackson started it. Just look at any of the dance moves MJ was doing during the 'Thriller' days. One of the moves people always freaked out about was the standing on the toes thing. That is a direct lift from Elvis in 'Jailhouse Rock'. And as far as Fred Astaire is concerned, just watch some of the dance numbers in "The Bandwagon" particularly the end sequence when Astaire plays a gangster. It's hard to look at Michael Jackson doing his dance routines while sporting a fedora and not think that Fred Astaire inspired that fashion and choreography style.


As entertaining and culturally pertinent as the Jailhouse Rock dance-sequence is, the presumption that Michael Jackson oft performed a toe-rise because of this movie wholly ignores the fact that such was not only an old vaudeville move, but was used by James Cagney 15 years previously in Yankee Doodle Dandy. Jackson, a fan of musicals from Hollywood's Golden Era, was more likely influenced by this movie, and by Cagney's brilliant dancing, than Elvis performing a move hardly unique to him or Jailhouse Rock. Whilst, I'm sure ballet also played an influence on Jackson -- and there lies another dance medium in which the toe-rise has been used for decades.

Whilst, as much as Jackson was inspired by Astaire, he was also influenced by Frank Sinatra, and it was Sinatra's style he lifted the fedora from . . . As seen in a 1969 special with Diana Ross, in which he dressed as Sinatra, complete with a street lamp to lean on, a la the album cover for Sinatra's Songs for Young Lovers. Astaire, Kelly and the style of the 1940's also influenced Jackson, and such was never more evident than in the video for Smooth Criminal . . .

We can even go back as far as Cab Callaway and Marcel Marceu with regards to influences on Jackson's dancing, not to mention Jeffrey Daniel of Shalamar -- who came much later, but was surely seen by Jackson performing the back-slide, which became the Moonwalk. But, again, Callaway and Marceau also performed a similar move years before.

Lots of influences, certainly . . . Point being, however, that you can't say it's wrong for Jackson fans - or fans of whomever else - to be dismissive of Elvis, then be dismissive of so much that isn't Elvis -- something that's certainly prevalent throughout Elvisfandom and oft taken as the gospel truth . . . E1's liner-notes, anyone?!

Re: If you thought Elvis fans were narrow minded....

Sat Aug 06, 2011 9:22 pm

greystoke wrote:not to mention Jeffrey Daniel of Shalamar -- who came much later, but was surely seen by Jackson performing the back-slide, which became the Moonwalk.


Daniels and one of Jacksons sisters are both on record stating that Daniels actually taught Jackson the move after seeing him perform it on TV.

Also, it was always known as the back slide but Jackson confused it with the moonwalk which is a different move altogether.

Re: If you thought Elvis fans were narrow minded....

Sat Aug 06, 2011 10:20 pm

Watch Elvis' performance on the Milton Berle show where he pulls his shirt collar up and then steps up on his tip toes.

Then watch the Billie Jean music video.

Coincedence i think not.

Re: If you thought Elvis fans were narrow minded....

Sun Aug 07, 2011 1:49 am

brian wrote:Watch Elvis' performance on the Milton Berle show where he pulls his shirt collar up and then steps up on his tip toes.

Then watch the Billie Jean music video.

Coincedence i think not.


and did Elvis notice the James Dean high collar?

Re: If you thought Elvis fans were narrow minded....

Sun Aug 07, 2011 4:19 am

I think certain things were just the style for certain groups of people at the start of it, like dance moves, clothing styles and the way people wore them. As time went on, people were copying those groups of people because they thought it was the cool thing to do since they didn't understand it. Michael Jackson was one of those people who copied others, especially Elvis. Justin Timberlake, Usher and Chris Brown believe that they copied Michael Jackson, but they aren't bright enough to know where Michael Jackson got it from. That's the problem, people back during Elvis' time and even before that, people knew where they were influenced. Today, people lie and claim they did it or they claim that someone else from their generation created it even though the older generation knows better.

Re: If you thought Elvis fans were narrow minded....

Sun Aug 07, 2011 3:35 pm

intheghetto wrote:
Elvisfan10 wrote:I think certain things were just the style for certain groups of people at the start of it, like dance moves, clothing styles and the way people wore them. As time went on, people were copying those groups of people because they thought it was the cool thing to do since they didn't understand it. Michael Jackson was one of those people who copied others, especially Elvis. Justin Timberlake, Usher and Chris Brown believe that they copied Michael Jackson, but they aren't bright enough to know where Michael Jackson got it from. That's the problem, people back during Elvis' time and even before that, people knew where they were influenced. Today, people lie and claim they did it or they claim that someone else from their generation created it even though the older generation knows better.



+1


Timberlake and his ilk, at least in my opinion, have no idea about the devices they use in their act. As you said, it comes down to being 'bright enough', and I don't think most of them even care about that. As long as it "looks cool" and their fans like it, they could give a crap.
I always hear them say Michael Jackson is their major influence, but they know absolutely nothing about what came before Michael Jackson or before Elvis. It's almost like the older generation never existed, like it started in the '69 and nothing came before that. In my opinion, it's really sad.

Re: If you thought Elvis fans were narrow minded....

Mon Aug 08, 2011 9:48 am

Elvis had respect for Little Richard as well as he did many other legends

Re: If you thought Elvis fans were narrow minded....

Mon Aug 08, 2011 9:53 am

promiseland wrote:Elvis had respect for Little Richard as well as he did many other legends
Problem is, people who aren't familiar with Elvis except for what the media spews out assume that Elvis stole everything.

Re: If you thought Elvis fans were narrow minded....

Wed Aug 10, 2011 1:42 pm

brian wrote:...That doesn't mean Little Richard was an influence. All it means was Elvis needed songs to fill an album and he like Richard's music enough to cover it...


That reasoning is a little simplistic. If he liked Richard enough to cover the songs, it stands to reason he had some influence on him, don't you think?

Re: If you thought Elvis fans were narrow minded....

Wed Aug 10, 2011 6:01 pm

likethebike wrote:Richard was not in any way a formative influence on Elvis but one could argue that the rasp Elvis employed on tracks like "Jailhouse Rock" and "Hound Dog" was influenced by Richard in the way that the Beatles and acts like the Byrds influenced each other back and forth in the 1950s. So one element of Elvis' style was influenced by Richard IMO.

Lonely- I like all your posts but Elvis fans are not any more narrow minded than other fans. Some of it, that you see on this board, seems to come out when some writers feel the need to dump on Elvis in preference of their favorites. And when you do that in a forum that places of Elvis as a favorite, it doesn't play exceptionally well. However, I think what you see on the Richard board and what you see in many of the lesser posts in forums like this is a cultural thing. Many writers do this in their writing. They make the case for one artist or one group of artists or style of artists by dismissing other artists. And also in the need to paint "X" artists as the greatest of all time. In fact the hyperbole of a lot of criticism sets up a model where if an artist isn't "the greatest" than that artist is sh[*][*]. It kind of sets up the idea of pop music as full contact spectator sport. In the tradition of the winner take all sports culture, it also sets up an ideal that completely belittles the value of good work. The way the history is so often framed the legitimate value of a work of a lesser performer like say Ricky Nelson is disregarded simply because Ricky Nelson is not the Beatles, Bob Dylan or Elvis. And it's only worth really talking about the Big Boys.


Great points, ltb. It's almost as if some Elvis fans have battered spouse syndrome. Elvis has been so beat up by the rock critical establishment, they feel the constant need to apologize for this trait or that one. No one needs to apologize for Elvis, just make a case for him plain and simple.

intheghetto wrote:
Lonely Summer wrote: Fats Domino, Chuck Berry, Elvis, Carl Perkins, Bo Diddley, all these guys deserve credit for their contributions, of course I have also heard Richard praise these guys as giant talents, when asked his favorite Chuck Berry song in "Hail Hail Rock 'n' Roll", he says "all of them!" And he also deserves credit for recognizing the talent in people like James Brown, Jimi Hendrix and Billy Preston, all of whom worked in his band at one time or another.


Totally agree. I guess the question has always been why did Elvis get the lion's share when it came to 'the king of rock and roll' stuff? The obvious points are that he was probably the most "camera ready" of the bunch. By today's standards he would be a GQ model no question. I also think it's because Elvis was, for lack of a better definition, the most animated performer and made a huge impact with that. He played a little guitar, but his music didn't rely on it. He left that to Scotty, Bill, and DJ. Elvis wasn't tied down to an instrument the way Chuck Berry and Richard or Fats were. Jerry Lee Lewis did a good job of moving around on stage, but Elvis probably had the most freedom out of all of them. The other thing that kept Elvis at the forefront of all his 50s contemporaries was that his music evolved over the years. It may not have been what the fans wanted necessarily, but his material did change. He may have done all of his 50s hits when he performed '69 through '70 but he still had a well of current stuff to draw from. Little Richard fans, Chuck Berry fans, and the rest of them went to see them play to hear the original 50s songs. Unlike Elvis, and as great as they were/are, they were trapped in the era that made them legendary.


Good points all, but I want to add an essential one (that gets overlooked by alot of critics) in terms of both presentation and vocal performance, Elvis was the most overlty-sexualized performer of the era. This made him both the most attractive to repressed teenagers, and the biggest lightening rod to parents and critics. There seems to be a school of thought that Elvis's movements were simply mimicking what black performers were doing at the time, but they never got to do this on TV because of their race. I don't buy this. None of the post-1956 video that exists on Richard, Berry, Diddley, etc would suggest anything akin to the "bump and grind" that was so despised by critics from Elvis's 1956 Milton Berle appearance. Alanna Nash makes a persuasive case that the Presley moves were just as influenced by the sexy nature of female dancers/strippers as they were black performers or (the oft cited) pentecostal church way of worship.

But it wasn't just his stage moves or his good looks, it was also vocal delivery. Richard had the gospel fervor, Berry and Domino were excellent songwriters with an infectious delivery, but Elvis was almost singular in his ability to communicate sex vocally. When he sings "the things that we two could share, would make my dreams come true", the way he sings it makes let's you know exactly what he's talking about. Then you have the blatant onomatopoeias such as the "Stay -ay-aaayyy" in Any Way You Want Me, or the "ooh" "ahh" call and response at the end of Such A Night. Elvis's catalog is filled with examples of this, and that's one of the reasons he was described as "one great big hunk of forbidden fruit".

The only performer that comes close to matching Elvis in this area is Jerry Lee Lewis, and as you pointed out, his stage performance (being tied to a piano) limited what he was able to do. I think it was Lester Bangs (someone correct me if I'm wrong) who once wrote that "Elvis promised every woman in America a good orgasm...and he delivered". That, more than any other reason, is why Elvis became both the lightning rod and the "King".