Complete Masters compared/contrasted with Franklin Mint

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Re: Complete Masters compared/contrasted with Franklin Mint

Post by luckyjackson1 »

Kylan wrote:Mystery Train has a spliced ending??
Kylan, just the final "breakdown"-notes were taken from a different source.

"The great new Sony transfer of the unprocessed, dynamic Mystery Train makes its debut here 'Elvis at SUN'. The original, full-ending-to-the last-note version derived from lost Sun Tape Box #1 has been recovered from the best available source (tape copy with compression and severe generation loss) and matched with precision during the fade-out, using all the tricks in the book and for once stretching all the 'Elvis at SUN' restoration rules. The result of this impossible task is stunning considering the circumstances."
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Re: Complete Masters compared/contrasted with Franklin Mint

Post by Kylan »

in my best Elvis voice... ohhh ya ya ya...

my bad.. i forgot! :lol:
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Re: Complete Masters compared/contrasted with Franklin Mint

Post by luckyjackson1 »

KiwiAlan wrote:Could this thread be a sticky for a month?
Alan, it seems like unfortunately nobody cared.
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Re: Complete Masters compared/contrasted with Franklin Mint

Post by Phil »

Can somebody compare Mystery Train of the Complete masters with the FM set
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Re: Complete Masters compared/contrasted with Franklin Mint

Post by elvissessions »

They should be identical, and to my ears they are. Why would you expect them to be different, as Ernst has confirmed for a long time that these sets drew from the same restoration work?

Juan Luis

Re: Complete Masters compared/contrasted with Franklin Mint

Post by Juan Luis »

A question about "Beyond the Reef". The only version I recall was on the 8LP boxset. Is there an undubbed version with Elvis only vocals? I always thought that Charlie Hodge,Red West etc sang with Elvis in or through his microphone. If true, would be next to impossible to separate.

Claus

Re: Complete Masters compared/contrasted with Franklin Mint

Post by Claus »

The undubbed version is on the 60s box set.
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Re: Complete Masters compared/contrasted with Franklin Mint

Post by elvissessions »

New addition to the original post in this thread:
* The 1968 version of "Swing Down Sweet Chariot," which is included on the Complete Masters but not on the Franklin Mint, is the record version of the song, with the female backing (presumably the Blossoms) rather than the Mello Men. The movie version with the male backing was originally released on Legendary Performer Volume 4. The female version was not released until 2009 on I Believe: The Gospel Masters.

Claus

Re: Complete Masters compared/contrasted with Franklin Mint

Post by Claus »

ES: Have they used the correct version of Black Star or is it the same version that was released on Double Features?
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Re: Complete Masters compared/contrasted with Franklin Mint

Post by luckyjackson1 »

Claus wrote:ES: Have they used the correct version of Black Star or is it the same version that was released on Double Features?
Claus, they used the regular 2:30 minutes version without the End Title Version. I already complained a lot about the sound quality so I won't do this again.
Hope this helps.

Here are my observations on some of the songs:

http://elvis-collectors.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=56926

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Re: Complete Masters compared/contrasted with Franklin Mint

Post by elvissessions »

Next up for this thread:

Identifying masters that have snippets of music missing compared with original releases. Emphasis: those that are trimmed in *historically inaccurate ways*.

We know that the Franklin Mint set, the Complete Masters and various other sets, including Elvis 75 are derived from the same remastering effort, so even if you do not have the Complete Masters set, you can contribute to our knowledged of these releases.

An example of what I mean:

The previously discovered missing initial cowbell strike on "Promised Land," which we know is intact on Elvis 75.

Another example of what I mean:

The previously discovered missing start of the overdubbed version of "Tomorrow Night," which we know was released in full on vinyl.

An example of what i do NOT mean:

The opening of "Scratch My Back." Like it or not, that is how it was originally released. It may be worth noting cases such as these to help reduce the number of repeated submissions, but these cannot be classified as errors in a project geared toward releasing original masters.

I will provide sound samples as I best I can when necessary.

Up first to consider are Rags to Riches and She's Not You.

Luckyjackson1 and Claus, especially, do you have anything else to add to the list?

Juan Luis

Re: Complete Masters compared/contrasted with Franklin Mint

Post by Juan Luis »

Claus wrote:The undubbed version is on the 60s box set.
Thanks...I'll check cause I thought even though undubbed it still had all the voices.

Claus

Re: Complete Masters compared/contrasted with Franklin Mint

Post by Claus »

Regarding Rags To Riches, I don't have a problem with the intro. The problem is the portion from take 3 has been edited wrong.

There might be a problem with the She's Not You, but imo it's too close to call. The intro is identical on Elvis 75 and the FM box.
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Re: Complete Masters compared/contrasted with Franklin Mint

Post by elvissessions »

I'm inclined to agree on both points, but I'll throw it out for others to judge. I myself need to listen to She's Not You more carefully than I have up to this point.

But it is your assessment that the opening of Rags to Riches matches the original release, correct?

Claus

Re: Complete Masters compared/contrasted with Franklin Mint

Post by Claus »

elvissessions wrote: But it is your assessment that the opening of Rags to Riches matches the original release, correct?
It matches the mono single release. Compared to the first stereo mix found on the silver box, the intro is clipped. I think that the intros (mono vs. frist stereo mix) are completely different but I'm perhaps imagining things.
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Re: Complete Masters compared/contrasted with Franklin Mint

Post by Walter Hale 4 »

Does the Franklin Mint set state if Lene Reidel mastered it ?

Claus

Re: Complete Masters compared/contrasted with Franklin Mint

Post by Claus »

Robt wrote:Does the Franklin Mint set state if Lene Reidel mastered it ?
No mastering credit.
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Re: Complete Masters compared/contrasted with Franklin Mint

Post by frus75 »

Sebastian E wrote:
Matthew wrote:I've often wondered about how the album master was compiled for "Elvis Country" For example - each 16 track tape needed to be mixed to 2-track stereo. In addition each track need to have "I Was Born About 10,000 Years Ago" cross-faded across the intros and outtros of each track (except for each side opener). The only way I see this happening it by mixing each track individually to 2-track, setting up two playback machines and then playing off each side by dubbing down to a final 2-track album master, doing the cross-fades live. That would imply that original stereo mixes sans the cross-fades would exist for each track. As far as I know 'they' have never been released.

Alternatively the mixes where bounced down to another multitrack with the cross-faded "Born" track punched in on other tracks. Either way it would still imply original 2-track mixes for all the album tracks.

There's no other way I can visualise it being done. Thoughts?
I had always assumed that the 'Born' snippets were added at mixing stage (reason being that these songs were obviously remixed for the 70s box set). However the two alternatives you presented seem more plausible. Otherwise each side of the 'Elvis, Country' LP would have had to be mixed as one track, right?

Last night I compared 'Elvis Country' and 'Love, Elvis' again. The mixes of 'There Goes My Everything' are identical. I think we can conclude that the original stereo mixes for the 'Elvis County' tracks (without 'I Was Born...') must be out there somewhere. Maybe they could not be located during the production of the 70s box set. But at least 'There Goes My Everything' was obviously available in recent years. As this appears to be the original stereo mix, in my opinion it should be used for the Sony set.
BTW folks, the mix of Funny How Time on the country genre cd is different to the 70's masters. On one you can clearly hear elvis ring after the first verse (maybe he changes mic from one hand to another). What about the other songs from elvis country featured there??
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Re: Complete Masters compared/contrasted with Franklin Mint

Post by elvissessions »

Regarding recurring questions about the Franklin Mint set vs. the Complete Masters set.

There is zero audible or written evidence that these masters differ from those found on the Complete Masters.

I also can add that when I spoke to Ernst in August he confirmed what we already had been told: These sets are derived from the same remastering effort.

The only reason for there to be any questions about differences between the sets would be in those cases that there may be timing errors, of which we have not confirmed any on the Franklin Mint vs. Complete Masters sets yet.

So far, they are identical, and this was expected.
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Re: Complete Masters compared/contrasted with Franklin Mint

Post by elvissessions »

Here are samples of the Rags to Riches opening to compare:

For purposes of the initial thread in this post, I would add "Rags to Riches" to the error list only if it is found to differ from the original release. I will, however, add a note to the points of interest section on this issue.

Here is the Complete Masters opening.

Here is the original mono single opening provided by Claus.

Here is the original stereo opening released on the Elvis Aron Presley box.
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Re: Complete Masters compared/contrasted with Franklin Mint

Post by Mike C »

On She's Not You, I didn't notice a slightly clipped intro. If it is clipped, it is very minimal.
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Re: Complete Masters compared/contrasted with Franklin Mint

Post by elvissessions »

Luckyjackson1 has gone into more detail than anyone else so far on the specifics of this set.

I am going to begin transferring his observations to this post.

I will line through those that are matters of opinion or purely qualitative observations. There are a few things here that may eventually fall into that category, but may require further testing.

I will italicize items that already are dealt with in the original post in this thread.

Items that are in bold are issues I'm focusing on at the moment.
The “Love Me Tender” session sounds really clear now, fantastic improved sound!

Did they probably take “Let Me” from scratch and use the audio track and Elvis’ vocal overdub to combine them a-new?

Finally the intro of “How’s The World Treating You” doesn’t sound like it’s been spliced anymore (right before Elvis starts singing).

There are drop-outs on the ending of “Got A Lot O’ Livin’ To Do!”

It’s funny because “One Night” sounds like it has been no-noised. I have no proof for that. Just a thought because there's virtually no tape-hiss audible to my ears. Immediately after that follows “True Love”, which has a whole lot of tape hiss on it. Did the engineers back then also use noise reduction? Probably during the process of copying the master on a different reel?

“Surrender” sounds marvelous!

The Splice on “In My Father’s House (Are Many Mansions)” sounds a little sloppy, as the spliced part comes in a split second too fast.

I never heard “In My Way” in such a fantastic sound quality!

There’s a drop-out on the first drum-hit of “Steppin’ Out Of Line”, Elvis’ voice is still overdriven.

I never cared too much for “I Met Her Today” but here the sound is simply astonishing. A crystal clear beauty!

Unfortunately the edited tracks from the “Kid Galahad”-soundtrack have been released again in its edited form. It makes perfect sense as the unedited versions were released for the first time in 1993. I never before heard Elvis humming along on the intro of “Home Is Where The Heart Is”!

“She’s Not You” is slightly clipped on the beginning but the strange sound on 2:05 is still audible (finger snap or creaky bone ?).

Strange, but they also used the short stereo version of “Mama”.

“Dainty Little Moonbeams” still leads into the finale of “Girls! Girls! Girls!”

Finally they corrected the splice on “Plantation Rock”. But compared to “I Don’t Wanna Be Tied” (the previous track), it sounds unbelievably flat!

Listen to the right channel on the intro of “Marguerita” - the acoustic guitar is clearly audible.

The intro to “Spring Fever” is slightly clipped, therefore the Jordanaires sing “pring fever”.

The intro to “Scratch My Back (Then I’ll Scratch Yours)” is still clipped, but hey, who cares?

“Down In The Alley” has the correct intro without missing any drumbeat.

The error on the intro of “Fools Fall In Love” has been corrected.

“I’ll Remember You” is the original edited version.

“I’ll Take Love” still has the bad splicing job close to the end.

“Sing You Children” has an sloppy, amateurish fade-out job, it fades out with a lot of echo and then there’s a sound that reminds me of a skipping record… ???

The drum hit on the ending of “Clambake” is stil there (was missing on the “Double Features” and restored for the FTD).

The strange reverb on “Let Yourself Go” (Version 1) is finally gone again.

“High Heel Sneakers” is the originally edited version.

“You Don't Know Me (Record Version)” has the fixed ending.

“Stay Away” has the longer fade-out.

“Wonderful World” and “Edge Of Reality” have the original fade-outs.

“A Little Less Conversation” is the single version (Take 16) with the longer fade-out.

“Swing Down Sweet Chariot” (Version 2) is unfortunately the overdubbed version - one more reason to keep the “Double Features” CD that contains the original undubbed version.

“Signs Of The Zodiac” has a lot of (additional?) echo. So what…?

“Mama Liked The Roses” has the longest fade-out.

“My Little Friend” is the remixed version as used first on the “Almost In Love”-LP.

“In The Ghetto” has the original fade-out.

“Rubberneckin’” is the remixed version as used first on the “Almost In Love”-LP.

“Without Love (There Is Nothing)” has a slight early fade.

“I'll Hold You In My Heart (Till I Can Hold You In My Arms)” has a rather bad “intro-job”.

“Suspicious Minds” fades again at 4:19.

“Any Day Now” still has the strange “distant” sound.

Unfortunately, "America" and "Softly, As I Leave You" sound like they did on their first release (which makes perfect sense, considering the main reason for this release). Even the badly edited applause is there!

"I Need You So" never sounded better.

"Guitar Man" is the regular faded version, but it sounds flawless, speed is corrected compared to the 60's Box.

The original mixes from the "Frankie And Johnny"-Soundtrack were used on this releaseand have been improved, just like the "Harum Scarum" soundtrack. I prefer the Double Features mixes although the mastering is obsolete now.

The “On Stage” album has the original mix (including screams on “Polk Salad Annie” etc.)

“Little Cabin On The Hill” has a different intro (the first few bars). Sounds a little odd to me.

"Bridge Over Troubled Water" has the overdubbed applause on the end.

“Faded Love” is the unedited master.

“I Washed My Hands In Muddy Water” is the (nearly complete) unedited master.

The right channel on "Where Did They Go, Lord" sounds kinda dull.

“Whole Lotta Shakin’ Goin’ On” sounds strange to my ears - I don’t know how to describe this but I get the feelin’ of a constant “bright- and dullness" (also again on the right channel)...

Unfortunately, a big minus: The intro of "Rags To Riches" is f***ed up again... this time even worse than before. The right channel again sounds kinda dull to me here. I think the best version is still the one found on the german CD "The Collection, Vol. 4" (not sure right now if it's the same as found on "Elvis Aaron Presley", aka the "Silver Box).

"Padre" is most likely the so-called "Original Alternate Mix" they used on the recent "FOOL"-FTD and on the Franklin Mint Set.

“Merry Christmas, Baby” has a digital error (or whatever it is) audible at 0:05 - didn’t hear such thing since an old CD back in the 90’s…

“My Way” again has the bad sounding echo on Elvis’ voice like on its first release on the 70’s Box. So it clearly sounds better on the new “FOOL”-FTD (that means: buy it!). Again this raises the question if L.R. is responsible for all 103 “rarities”…

The sound quality on "I'll Be Home On Christmas Day" (remake) is nowhere nearly as good as on the masters released during Elvis' lifetime, what probably confirms my fears regarding the "rarities".

“Where Do I Go From Here” has the last faded note on 2:36.

Haven't checked out, what mix of "Fool" they used here...

It seems that the speed on the MSG has been corrected, as it sounds fine with me. This has been mentioned zillion times before but let me remark once more that this show needs a remixing desperately. Nevertheless it never sounded better than here. And unlike on the 90’s CD, the strange error (repeated snippet) on “The Impossible Dream” is gone again, thank god!

“Aloha From Hawaii” sounds rather dull to me, otherwise quite powerful.

I think they used some no-noise on the Aloha bonus tracks for they contained some really bad hiss. Compared to the recent "FOOL"-FTD they sound about the same.

Now we know how the masters on the (someday) upcoming “Promised Land”-FTD will sound like: wonderful, glorious! Never heard a better quality of these December ’73 recordings.

Update: A sad note: The intro of "Promised Land" is cut. Never heard such a bad job on that intro before. Another big minus! I hope this is going to be corrected on the FTD for that album.

Probably the most important detection: "My Boy" is thank god the version with the spliced ending, therefore it's the longest running take available!!!

I must say I prefer the vintage mix of the original “Live On Stage In Memphis” album better than on the recent FTD, except for the fake applause, of course. Once more, please! But here the overall sound is quite satisfying (although I recall that I listened to a better sounding CD in the past, probably the 24-bit version).

The whole “Today” album sounds marvelous, better than on all previous releases (except for probably the original vinyl LP which I haven’t heard).

Even Elvis' voice on "Bringing It Back" sounds pretty decent now.


The jam of “Tiger Man” is faded very quickly. Sounds like the same mix as on the 70’s Box and/or the “Today”-FTD (dunno for sure if they were equal).

Elvis’ voice on “It’s Easy For You” sounds more natural now. Beatiful! The keyboards sound a little disturbing because they are way too upfront for my taste.

The dog barking on the very end of “Way Down” is back again!

"Long Legged Girl (With The Short Dress On)" is NOT clipped.

"Guitar Man" is the same as on the recent "Clambake" AND "Elvis 75" escape/release.

How's the sound on the second LP (Elvis) when compared to Kevan's remaster? I think they sound punchier and the EQ is lower compared to Kevan's remaster. Sounds almost no-noised but I guess they are not.

[1957]Xmas songs, do they sound better? Compared to the 50's Box, yes. I don't like the tampering they did on the "White Christmas" intro. Also punchier and lower EQ.

what about the june [1958] masters, any improvement? They still sound kinda distorted and probably have been recorded that way. Wouldn't really call it improvement. I just think it can't get much better than this.

Flaming Star songs (other than the main title), how they sound compared to double features? "Summer Kisses, Winter Tears" sounds really clear. "Britches" doesn't have the really bad, annoying echo/reverb anymore."A Cane And A High Starched Collar" also sounds crystal clear. Guitar left, accordion right and Elvis centered. I just wonder why the fizzy "s" is clearly audible again on "Flaming Star" ???

It happened at the world's fair, anything remarkable? Hell, yeah. The (digital?) crackling sound on every intro (as on the "Double Features") is gone. Didn't compare it to the FTD though. Here they sound full and warm. Even "How Would You Like To Be" has "drive"!

those spinout tracks...how they sound? Didn't compare them but I guess they are no real improvement compared to the FTD. Might sound a little brighter and punchier. IIRC, the LP sounded better.

How's the intro of Honky tonk angel? I think the intro is slightly clipped and of course it's still distorted at 0:07.

Also TALK ABOUT THE GOOD TIMES - Is it a longer fade out or the abrupt one? [frus75 chimes in:] Talk is the short version. [and luckyjackson1 confirms:] Exactly, my friend. Just like "Carny Town".

So [Talk About the Good Times] fades off abruptly just like when it first was released on GOOD TIMES ? Yes, as it was originally released on March 20, 1974.

Somebody wrote that the "Roustabout" tracks sound worse here. They actually sound punchier and with lower EQ.

I must say the whole ["Roustabout"] soundtrack (except for "There's A Brand New Day On The Horizon") has a lot of (unnatural? additional added?) echo... hmmm, mysterious! To me the echo sounds like on the first "Girl Happy"-FTD escape. Or even worse, like the annoying 90's computer reverb...

"Hard Knocks" has a slight drop-out at 0:03 on the left channel, while at the same time on the right you can hear somebody's voice or whatever this is... strange!

I don't know, I haven't listened to my 80's LP pressing [of Roustabout] for a long time. Can anybody confirm that there was a lot of echo on the original album???
Last edited by elvissessions on Mon Nov 15, 2010 10:41 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Complete Masters compared/contrasted with Franklin Mint

Post by luckyjackson1 »

elvissessions, thank you very much for your effort. Well done! Of course, a lot of the songs mentioned above reflect my personal taste and not necessarily the received opinion.

Could it be that on certain things I have to blame my eardrums or, more likely, my Sennheiser headphone? :D

In the first place I thought: oh my god, let's wait and see who and when starts bitching and complaining when the Big Box is finally delivered. I now arrived at the conclusion that I AM the (first and biggest) one... :oops:

When I take a look at my list above I must say that a lot of times I didn't pay attention (or did a direct comparison) to the FTD's. It's probably simply because I do not own them... :roll:
Okay, my uncle made copies for me!! You got me!! :mrgreen:

Anyway, keep up the good work and thank you once again for your support! :smt006
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Re: Complete Masters compared/contrasted with Franklin Mint

Post by Claus »

Honky Tonk Angel IS clipped but it sounded the same way on the non-remixed BMG cd. I don't have the album on vinyl.
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Re: Complete Masters compared/contrasted with Franklin Mint

Post by elvissessions »

For the time being, I remain extremely ambivalent about reviewing the final three discs.

On the one hand, they deserve a thorough overview. On the other hand, there's little evidence these are anything but retread masters.

There are one or two obvious exceptions that must be noted:

1. The clipped opening of the overdubbed Tomorrow Night. First, it's on both sets and deserves to be mentioned for that. Two, this screwup -- as far as I know -- does not exist on any other release and therefore needs to be noted.

2. The sound on "I'm a Roustabout" is very different from the Second to None release. My opinion -- and this is just my opinion -- is that Second to None is not a different source, it's only been re-EQ'd from this transfer. Personally, I prefer the less-shrill version on Complete Masters, but I agree with your assessment, luckyjackson1, that better can be done with this track. If nothing else, the EQ should be pitched somewhere between the two extremes. Again, just my opinion. Regardless, this is a very different sound of a track that has been available on only one collection. This variant deserves to be noted.

Some other exceptions may occur to me, but those come to me off the top of my head.

[EDITED to remove my as-yet unconfirmed and -- at the moment, I will say mistaken -- impression that other Lene-credited material (besides I'm a Roustabout) sounds different than previous releases.
Last edited by elvissessions on Mon Nov 15, 2010 1:48 am, edited 2 times in total.