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Re: Let's Talk Jackie Wilson...

Tue Mar 04, 2014 1:08 pm

drjohncarpenter wrote: but Elvis' performance of "Return to Sender" is a direct tribute to Wilson's stage movements.


Well, maybe more indirect than direct, with a bit of Bobby Darin thrown in for good measure.

Re: Let's Talk Jackie Wilson...

Wed Mar 05, 2014 2:25 am

Revelator wrote:I'm not so sure, for a couple of reasons. The first is that Jackie Wilson's first major version of Danny Boy was also cut in the 50s, and can be found on his 1958 debut album He's So Fine, which Elvis quite likely owned.

Elvis possibly owned the album, possibly he didn't. Either way, Elvis' 50's treatment of the song is consistent with his 70's version, both are quite traditional in their approach, as opposed to Jackie's styilized renderings.

I suggest we need to look elsewhere for whatever inspiration Elvis took from Jackie, as his interpretation of Danny Boy wasn't it.

Re: Let's Talk Jackie Wilson...

Wed Mar 05, 2014 2:26 am

jurasic1968 wrote:Thanks a lot, Doc, for the information and the beautiful pictures. The last one, in color, from 1974, I liked the best, how cool Elvis looked in blue jeans!


Thank you for the kind words.

Re: Let's Talk Jackie Wilson...

Thu Mar 06, 2014 4:43 am

Speaking of the love, where is sherrlon12?

Re: Let's Talk Jackie Wilson...

Thu Mar 06, 2014 4:47 am

On the Million Dollar Quartet recording, Elvis talks about visiting Las Vegas and watching Billy Ward and the Dominoes perform. Elvis mentions how the lead singer performed "Don't Be Cruel" better than Elvis' original. Wasn't Jackie Wilson with Billy Ward's group at that time? If so, this may be where Elvis' admiration of Jackie Wilson began.

Re: Let's Talk Jackie Wilson...

Thu Mar 06, 2014 4:48 am

[quote="sherrlon12"]Let's Workout on this board...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WXZmjUtlJw[/quote]

I think "Baby Workout" is my favorite Jackie Wilson performance...

Re: Let's Talk Jackie Wilson...

Thu Mar 06, 2014 6:16 am

Rtn 2 Sndr wrote:On the Million Dollar Quartet recording, Elvis talks about visiting Las Vegas and watching Billy Ward and the Dominoes perform. Elvis mentions how the lead singer performed "Don't Be Cruel" better than Elvis' original. Wasn't Jackie Wilson with Billy Ward's group at that time? If so, this may be where Elvis' admiration of Jackie Wilson began.


Did you get a chance to read the posts on page 1? :(

http://www.elvis-collectors.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=81690&p=1265349#p1265349

Re: Let's Talk Jackie Wilson...

Thu Mar 06, 2014 6:34 am

I love Jackie Wilson.

Apparently this is his son.

phpBB [video]

Re: Let's Talk Jackie Wilson...

Thu Mar 06, 2014 6:55 am

drjohncarpenter wrote:It's unclear how many times in the 1960s Elvis saw Jackie in concert, but he definitely caught shows at "The Trip" on 8572 Sunset Boulevard in West Hollywood, right next to the Playboy Club building.

Wilson was booked there from June 30-July 10, 1966, and after Elvis made a few visits there, Jackie went to standing-room only crowds. He was forever grateful for that. Elvis was making "Double Trouble" at MGM and invited Jackie to visit.


Yes, Jerry Schilling spoke about that in "Me and a Guy Named Elvis" ( pages 151-152) and noted that Wilson witnessed the filming of a couple of the "Double Trouble" musical sequences, during which Elvis did some Wilson moves/mannerisms. The way Schilling describes it does bring to mind "Return to Sender" really, but he does refer to that separately. Here's the relevant part:

schilling_on_jackie_and_elvis.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

Re: Let's Talk Jackie Wilson...

Thu Mar 06, 2014 6:55 am

drjohncarpenter wrote:
Did you get a chance to read the posts on page 1? :(



Apparently not... :oops:

I will try to read the thread a little more carefully next time.

Re: Let's Talk Jackie Wilson...

Thu Mar 06, 2014 7:23 am

Rtn 2 Sndr wrote:Apparently not... :oops:

I will try to read the thread a little more carefully next time.


You are very kind, thanks a lot!

I figured the post on page 1 would be pleasing to you, so I am glad you saw it!

Re: Let's Talk Jackie Wilson...

Thu Mar 06, 2014 8:10 am

The mob issue is one of the most controversial topics surrounding Wilson. His manager Nat Tarnapol had definite mob connections, though I'm skeptical about the story of goons holding Jackie upside down outside a window. As we learned from Col. Parker, a manager doesn't have to resort to thugs in order to control a client. Before Jackie's demise, he and Tarnapol were barely speaking, and Brunswick (which Tarnapol had a 50% stake in!) was barely promoting Jackie's albums, despite the fact that he was cutting terrific music under Carl Davis's direction, with top-notch material contributed by the Chi-Lites' Eugene Record.

Though the CD reissues of Jackie's original albums are now out of print, newcomers are encouraged to seek out The Ultimate Jackie Wilson, a superbly selected two-CD compilation of his most essential music. (The only missing classic is his version of "Let This Be a Letter [to My Baby]," written by Record). It's divided equally between the two halves of Wilson's career: the r&b/pop era of 1958 to 1965, and the soul period from '65 to Wilson's collapse a decade later.

Doc has already kindly posted Jackie's photos with Elvis. Jackie also had dealings with Jerry Lee Lewis, who shot a pilot for a 1971 variety show that was never green-lit. Jackie was one of the guest stars and performed several songs, including "Higher and Higher," shown below:
phpBB [video]



For the finale, Jerry Lee and his guests--Jackie, Carl Perkins, and Lina Gail Lewis--performed an all-star version of "This Land is Your Land" that is more American than apple pie:
phpBB [video]



All indications are that Wilson recorded a good deal more material for Brunswick than was ever released. Several years ago a mysterious CD called The Lost Tapes surfaced, containing several songs that had never been released on albums or as singles. Quality could not have been an issue, because the material were excellent. Here's an example, "Dancin' Man" (forgive my primitive video):
phpBB [video]



Jackie's fans know that he recorded at least two duets with r&b legend LaVern Baker, "Think Twice" and the stunning "Please Don't Hurt Me." (There's also a hilariously foulmouthed outtake called "Twice Twice Version X," which can easily be found on youtube.) Yet apparently more duets are still in the can, and God knows what else is lurking in Brunswick's vaults!

For those who are curious, here's "Please Don't Hurt Me":
phpBB [video]

Re: Let's Talk Jackie Wilson...

Thu Mar 06, 2014 10:05 am

Revelator wrote:The mob issue is one of the most controversial topics surrounding Wilson. His manager Nat Tarnapol had definite mob connections, though I'm skeptical about the story of goons holding Jackie upside down outside a window. As we learned from Col. Parker, a manager doesn't have to resort to thugs in order to control a client. Before Jackie's demise, he and Tarnapol were barely speaking, and Brunswick (which Tarnapol had a 50% stake in!) was barely promoting Jackie's albums, despite the fact that he was cutting terrific music under Carl Davis's direction, with top-notch material contributed by the Chi-Lites' Eugene Record.

Though the CD reissues of Jackie's original albums are now out of print, newcomers are encouraged to seek out The Ultimate Jackie Wilson, a superbly selected two-CD compilation of his most essential music. (The only missing classic is his version of "Let This Be a Letter [to My Baby]," written by Record). It's divided equally between the two halves of Wilson's career: the r&b/pop era of 1958 to 1965, and the soul period from '65 to Wilson's collapse a decade later.

Doc has already kindly posted Jackie's photos with Elvis. Jackie also had dealings with Jerry Lee Lewis, who shot a pilot for a 1971 variety show that was never green-lit. Jackie was one of the guest stars and performed several songs, including "Higher and Higher," shown below:
phpBB [video]



For the finale, Jerry Lee and his guests--Jackie, Carl Perkins, and Lina Gail Lewis--performed an all-star version of "This Land is Your Land" that is more American than apple pie:
phpBB [video]



All indications are that Wilson recorded a good deal more material for Brunswick than was ever released. Several years ago a mysterious CD called The Lost Tapes surfaced, containing several songs that had never been released on albums or as singles. Quality could not have been an issue, because the material were excellent. Here's an example, "Dancin' Man" (forgive my primitive video):
phpBB [video]



Jackie's fans know that he recorded at least two duets with r&b legend LaVern Baker, "Think Twice" and the stunning "Please Don't Hurt Me." (There's also a hilariously foulmouthed outtake called "Twice Twice Version X," which can easily be found on youtube.) Yet apparently more duets are still in the can, and God knows what else is lurking in Brunswick's vaults!

For those who are curious, here's "Please Don't Hurt Me":
phpBB [video]



Perhaps a quality label like Bear Family might consider doing the Jackie Wilson career. How sweet that might be.

Re: Let's Talk Jackie Wilson...

Thu Mar 06, 2014 11:49 am

drjohncarpenter wrote:Perhaps a quality label like Bear Family might consider doing the Jackie Wilson career. How sweet that might be.


Indeed--it would be the perfect label for the job. That would be a dream come true.

Most folks here already know of this, but for any who don't, Elvis sings a line from "Higher and Higher" while introducing Jackie Wilson at the 8/20/74 show included on From Sunset to Las Vegas. Elvis probably did not cover Jackie's songs for the same reason that he didn't cover Roy Orbison's.
Aside from Elvis's very brief attempt, the only cover of "Higher and Higher" that I like is Otis Redding's:

phpBB [video]

Re: Let's Talk Jackie Wilson...

Thu Mar 06, 2014 3:08 pm

Revelator wrote: Elvis probably did not cover Jackie's songs for the same reason that he didn't cover Roy Orbison's.


Possibly. Although at his vocal peak (60-63) Elvis was far superior to both Orbison and Wilson.

During this period Elvis' voice was a finely tuned instument, played to perfection. Effortlessly sliding up, down and across his range.

Gifted with almost natural reverb, such was it's fullness, one should almost discuss Elvis' voice in terms of decibels.

As good as both Orbison and Wilson were, Elvis was truly the voice of the 20th century.

Re: Let's Talk Jackie Wilson...

Thu Mar 06, 2014 5:45 pm

Revelator wrote:
drjohncarpenter wrote:Perhaps a quality label like Bear Family might consider doing the Jackie Wilson career. How sweet that might be.


Indeed--it would be the perfect label for the job. That would be a dream come true.

Most folks here already know of this, but for any who don't, Elvis sings a line from "Higher and Higher" while introducing Jackie Wilson at the 8/20/74 show included on From Sunset to Las Vegas. Elvis probably did not cover Jackie's songs for the same reason that he didn't cover Roy Orbison's.
Aside from Elvis's very brief attempt, the only cover of "Higher and Higher" that I like is Otis Redding's:




As great as Jackie W and Roy O were, reading
some of the comments being made. I must me missing something.

By way of example listening to

That’s All Right
Mystery Train
Hunk of Love
Reconsider Baby
Are You Lonesome Tonight
Its Now or Never
Anything That’s Part of You
Crying in the Chapel
High Heel Sneakers
US Male
In the Ghetto
Hold you in my Arms
I Really Don’t Want to Know
Faded Love
Kentucky Rain
Burning Love
Promised Land

And many many more,

I cannot think of anyone who Elvis needs fear of comparison to.

Re: Let's Talk Jackie Wilson...

Thu Mar 06, 2014 5:50 pm

Revelator wrote:
drjohncarpenter wrote:Perhaps a quality label like Bear Family might consider doing the Jackie Wilson career. How sweet that might be.


Indeed--it would be the perfect label for the job. That would be a dream come true.

Most folks here already know of this, but for any who don't, Elvis sings a line from "Higher and Higher" while introducing Jackie Wilson at the 8/20/74 show included on From Sunset to Las Vegas. Elvis probably did not cover Jackie's songs for the same reason that he didn't cover Roy Orbison's.
Aside from Elvis's very brief attempt, the only cover of "Higher and Higher" that I like is Otis Redding's:

phpBB [video]



Another good version is by Bobby Darin. He did a superb live version on his 'Darin Invasion' TV special. Its on DVD.

Re: Let's Talk Jackie Wilson...

Thu Mar 06, 2014 6:01 pm

Revelator wrote:
drjohncarpenter wrote:Perhaps a quality label like Bear Family might consider doing the Jackie Wilson career. How sweet that might be.


Indeed--it would be the perfect label for the job. That would be a dream come true.

Most folks here already know of this, but for any who don't, Elvis sings a line from "Higher and Higher" while introducing Jackie Wilson at the 8/20/74 show included on From Sunset to Las Vegas. Elvis probably did not cover Jackie's songs for the same reason that he didn't cover Roy Orbison's.
Aside from Elvis's very brief attempt, the only cover of "Higher and Higher" that I like is Otis Redding's:

phpBB [video]



Another great version is by Bruce Springsteen from his "Chicken Scratch" tour of 1977. The performance below is from the last date of the tour in Boston, MA.

phpBB [video]



I was lucky enough to see Bruce sing it with the band in November of 2009 at MSG.

Re: Let's Talk Jackie Wilson...

Thu Mar 06, 2014 7:48 pm

mike edwards66 wrote:Possibly. Although at his vocal peak (60-63) Elvis was far superior to both Orbison and Wilson.


In terms of vocal technique Elvis was never superior to Orbison or Wilson--he would not have been capable of performing "Running Scared" or "Danny Boy" with the same firepower and athleticism, regardless of decade. In non-technical areas, I think it can be argued that Elvis was the greater singer.

Re: Let's Talk Jackie Wilson...

Thu Mar 06, 2014 8:10 pm

Revelator wrote:
mike edwards66 wrote:Possibly. Although at his vocal peak (60-63) Elvis was far superior to both Orbison and Wilson.


In terms of vocal technique Elvis was never superior to Orbison or Wilson--he would not have been capable of performing "Running Scared" or "Danny Boy" with the same firepower and athleticism, regardless of decade. In non-technical areas, I think it can be argued that Elvis was the greater singer.


Running Scared and Danny Boy may be so - but there is a whole multitude of Elvis tracks that they could not perform to Elvis's level either, see my earlier post.

The bottom line is that the body of Elvis's works contain a whole bunch of classic performance that cannot be compared with.

Re: Let's Talk Jackie Wilson...

Thu Mar 06, 2014 8:20 pm

Revelator wrote:
mike edwards66 wrote:Possibly. Although at his vocal peak (60-63) Elvis was far superior to both Orbison and Wilson.


In terms of vocal technique Elvis was never superior to Orbison or Wilson--he would not have been capable of performing "Running Scared" or "Danny Boy" with the same firepower and athleticism, regardless of decade. In non-technical areas, I think it can be argued that Elvis was the greater singer.


I agree with this. And let's not forget that both Orbison and Wilson adored Presley's great work.

Re: Let's Talk Jackie Wilson...

Thu Mar 06, 2014 9:42 pm

Elvis was not a tenor. Wilson and Orbison were. That's the big difference. You can't expect a baritone/high baritone to hit those highest notes as effortlessly as a tenor.

Re: Let's Talk Jackie Wilson...

Sun Mar 09, 2014 3:18 am

Revelator wrote:In terms of vocal technique Elvis was never superior to Orbison or Wilson--he would not have been capable of performing "Running Scared" or "Danny Boy" with the same firepower and athleticism, regardless of decade.


If I might say, that is perilously close to being bollocks, with a capital b.

At his peak and within his range, Mr Presley had firepower and athleticism more than a match for any popular singer of the 20th century. Unless of course one is confusing vocal range with technique. In simple terms, technique, is being able to sing without pain. This is where Elvis excelled, he was gifted with a natural ability to land plum on any note (within his range), from any distance, without pain.

It's worth repeating:
mike edwards66 wrote:at his vocal peak (60-63) Elvis was far superior to both Orbison and Wilson.

During this period Elvis' voice was a finely tuned instument, played to perfection. Effortlessly sliding up, down and across his range.

Gifted with almost natural reverb, such was it's fullness, one should almost discuss Elvis' voice in terms of decibels.


Contrast this to both Orbison and Wilson, good as they were, great as they were, they couldn't compete with the King in the area of (honey sweet) effortless singing. I'm a big fan of the Big O, but I have to admit he sometimes sounds pained.

Wilson did have a wonderful pure voice, but he was given to vocal show ponying. Repeated listening to his Danny Boy, leaves one cold, the novelty soon wears off. The only thing he doesn't throw in is a yodel, he clearly didn't subscribe to the less is more school of thought.

Elvis on the other hand, never flattered to decieve, at his peak he never needed to try and impress, he just did.

Re: Let's Talk Jackie Wilson...

Sun Mar 09, 2014 6:35 am

mike edwards66 wrote:If I might say, that is perilously close to being bollocks, with a capital b.


It would have to be much worse to match what you've written below.

At his peak and within his range, Mr Presley had firepower and athleticism more than a match for any popular singer of the 20th century.


Elvis had less firepower and athleticism than many great popular singers--Aretha Franklin, Roy Hamilton, Roy Orbison, and Wilson are all examples of people who, from a technical standpoint, could "sing rings around Elvis," as the Sweet Inspirations once said of Aretha.

Unless of course one is confusing vocal range with technique.


Technique is how one exploits one's vocal range. Mastering technique is what builds up that range and allows maximum exploitation of it. And without technique you cannot show off that range in the first place.

In simple terms, technique, is being able to sing without pain.


And unless you are the singer's physician, you have no way of knowing whether or not the singer is genuine pain. What if he's singing a song where the lyrics require him to sound upset and in pain?

Contrast this to both Orbison and Wilson, good as they were, great as they were, they couldn't compete with the King in the area of (honey sweet) effortless singing.


That is rampant silliness. If what you esteem is "honey sweet effortless singing," then your ideal should be Perry Como or some other chloroform merchant.

I'm a big fan of the Big O, but I have to admit he sometimes sounds pained.


You have to? Yet no one else does.

Wilson did have a wonderful pure voice, but he was given to vocal show ponying.


In other words, displaying his mastery of technique. He could show off because he could do things other singers couldn't, because he had superior technique. If you've got it, flaunt it.

Repeated listening to his Danny Boy, leaves one cold, the novelty soon wears off.


If the only one left cold is you, then it's your loss.

he clearly didn't subscribe to the less is more school of thought


No decent singer follows a cliche.

Elvis on the other hand, never flattered to decieve, at his peak he never needed to try and impress, he just did.


It's sad that your Elvis idolatry extends to trashing other singers with such petty sophistry. How did Jackie Wilson supposedly "deceive" his audience, when he clearly pulled off the vocal feats he attempted? Very sour grapes on your part. Why not admit that part of Elvis's greatness was that he could sing as convincingly, and with as much feeling, as singers who were technically better than him?

Re: Let's Talk Jackie Wilson...

Sun Mar 09, 2014 6:49 am

Revelator wrote:
mike edwards66 wrote:Elvis on the other hand, never flattered to decieve, at his peak he never needed to try and impress, he just did.


It's sad that your Elvis idolatry extends to trashing other singers with such petty sophistry. How did Jackie Wilson supposedly "deceive" his audience, when he clearly pulled off the vocal feats he attempted? Very sour grapes on your part. Why not admit that part of Elvis's greatness was that he could sing as convincingly, and with as much feeling, as singers who were technically better than him?


This is the heart of the debate, and I thoroughly agree with you.