Off Topic Messages

Most believe Lee Harvey Oswald was 'patsy'

Mon Nov 11, 2013 1:01 am

Maybe people aren't so dumb after all.


Most believe Lee Harvey Oswald was 'patsy' -- not mastermind
David Martindale, Fort Worth Star-Telegram
Wednesday, November 6, 2013

During the 50 years since the assassination of President John F. Kennedy, more than 300 distinctly different conspiracy theories have been proposed to explain what "really" happened.

The finger of blame has been pointed at 42 groups, 82 assassins and 214 people.

No one, it seems, can agree on anything regarding the events of that dark day in Dallas on Nov. 22, 1963.

Except for this: Most Americans believe that gunman Lee Harvey Oswald was the only person telling the truth. Which is to say that four out of five Americans, an overwhelming 80 percent, believe that Oswald was, as he claimed after his arrest, a "patsy" and not the mastermind behind planning the crime.

This revelation comes from a national survey conducted by History channel, the results from which went into making "JFK Assassination: The Definitive Guide," premiering at 8 p.m. Nov. 22.

It's one of a multitude of Kennedy / Oswald / assassination / conspiracy-themed documentary specials airing this month.

History polled thousands of Americans - the first expansive survey on the assassination in nearly a decade, representing citizens of every state and covering a wide range of ages and ethnic, economic and educational backgrounds - to learn exactly what the country does and doesn't believe.

The survey shows that public skepticism of the "Lone Gunman Theory," supported by the Warren Commission in 1964, has never been higher. A total of 71 percent of Americans polled reject the "official" explanation.

http://www.bnd.com/2013/11/06/2888117/history-doc-most-dont-believe.html

Re: Most believe Lee Harvey Oswald was 'patsy'

Mon Nov 11, 2013 1:34 am

drjohncarpenter wrote:Maybe people aren't so dumb after all.


An alternative view.

One of the challenges with the conspiracy theory is that it has never progressed beyond theory.

Could the real conspiracy be the propagation of the conspiracy theory.

Re: Most believe Lee Harvey Oswald was 'patsy'

Mon Nov 11, 2013 2:08 am

mike edwards66 wrote:
drjohncarpenter wrote:Maybe people aren't so dumb after all.


An alternative view.

One of the challenges with the conspiracy theory is that it has never progressed beyond theory.

Could the real conspiracy be the propagation of the conspiracy theory.


Certainly the more noise, the less comprehension, and the further away a decent person is pushed from the truth.

But there are many credible, published facts that call into question what happened to President John F. Kennedy on Friday, November 22, 1963. And what it meant for America and the world after that.

Re: Most believe Lee Harvey Oswald was 'patsy'

Mon Nov 11, 2013 3:55 am

....And some believe John Connally shot the fatal shot as well. The parlor games continue....


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Re: Most believe Lee Harvey Oswald was 'patsy'

Mon Nov 11, 2013 4:02 am

Are you saying that people that don't believe in the multiple gunman fantasy are dumb? Everyone is entitled to their own opinion whether you agree with it or not, why can't you respect that?

The Dallas police said Oswald killed the President, the Warren Commission said Oswald killed the President, and the House Select Committee on Assassinations said Oswald killed him.

His motive is what is still in question and we will probably never know why he did it.

Re: Most believe Lee Harvey Oswald was 'patsy'

Mon Nov 11, 2013 5:54 am

ranskal wrote:Are you saying that people that don't believe in the multiple gunman fantasy are dumb? Everyone is entitled to their own opinion whether you agree with it or not, why can't you respect that?



He's the almighty Doc John Carpenter. Don't mess with him. He is as close to being "God" and perfection as you will ever see. If you don't agree with his thoughts & ideas, you might as well be a dead do do bird. He knows all, sees all and hears all. All hail the mighty Doc....... smt125 smt125 smt125 smt125 smt125


(btw, is there an arse kissing smiley I could use ?)

Re: Most believe Lee Harvey Oswald was 'patsy'

Mon Nov 11, 2013 10:00 am

ranskal wrote:Are you saying that people that don't believe in the multiple gunman fantasy are dumb?


No. But discussion of this subject, across two topics, shows us that you have an inability to discern the ideas I am trying to convey.

In the case of the above article, which is written in plain English and published in a major Texas newspaper (how ironic), what I am clearly expressing is surprise. It is stunning that an overwhelming majority of Americans now believe Lee Oswald was exactly what he told the media in the two days he was held by police without counsel: a patsy.

It only took fifty years. Too bad the people actually behind the crime are all dead now.

ranskal wrote:Everyone is entitled to their own opinion whether you agree with it or not, why can't you respect that?


Again, it's important to understand that some things are a matter of opinion; others are not. Education helps you distinguish between the two. It's not complicated.

Re: Most believe Lee Harvey Oswald was 'patsy'

Mon Nov 11, 2013 7:29 pm

drjohncarpenter wrote:
ranskal wrote:Are you saying that people that don't believe in the multiple gunman fantasy are dumb?


No. But discussion of this subject, across two topics, shows us that you have an inability to discern the ideas I am trying to convey.

In the case of the above article, which is written in plain English and published in a major Texas newspaper (how ironic), what I am clearly expressing is surprise. It is stunning that an overwhelming majority of Americans now believe Lee Oswald was exactly what he told the media in the two days he was held by police without counsel: a patsy.

It only took fifty years. Too bad the people actually behind the crime are all dead now.

ranskal wrote:Everyone is entitled to their own opinion whether you agree with it or not, why can't you respect that?


Again, it's important to understand that some things are a matter of opinion; others are not. Education helps you distinguish between the two. It's not complicated.


I have no problem discussing a topic and listening to someone's opinion but when you start out by implying I am ignorant on the topic (previous topic) because I don't agree with your opinion, I tend to disregard what you have to say.

As for what you are trying to convey, from what I can gather, you believe Oswald was not the lone gunman and that there was a conspiracy to kill the President. Is that right? You haven't really came out and said that, I am just basing this on how you have replied to some of the posts.

Re: Most believe Lee Harvey Oswald was 'patsy'

Mon Nov 11, 2013 8:01 pm

While reading the wonderful topic monkboughtlunch posted in the All Elvis section titled Elvis Presley's Stereo Equipment ==> Mystery Solved! http://www.elvis-collectors.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=79717, I noticed something interesting laying on Elvis' desk.

Image

I wonder what Elvis thought about the assassination theories.

Re: Most believe Lee Harvey Oswald was 'patsy'

Mon Nov 11, 2013 9:38 pm

jak wrote:Another obstacle? Oliver Stone’s 1991 thriller JFK, which has been criticized for taking liberties with historical facts and promoting various conspiracy theories (including that LBJ was part of an assassination plot), was a major commercial success, grossing upward of $205 million at the box office.


The media criticism was unprecedented (done MONTHS before the film was even released), and almost completely unfounded. Oliver Stone's film broke through the lies perpetuated since November 1963, one of many reasons it had such an impact back in 1991. And it doesn't promote "various conspiracy theories" but points the finger squarely at the perpetrators.

For those who question the script, a documented screenplay of the Stone film, complete with historical annotation, research notes and reactions and commentaries, may be read by anyone who cares:


JFK The Book of the Film.JPG

Oliver Stone, Zachary Sklar, JFK: The Book of the Film : The Documented Screenplay
http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/jfk-oliver-stone/1110974674
http://books.google.com/books/about/JFK.html?id=GyskeQlVFfkC
http://www.amazon.com/JFK-Book-Applause-Screenplay-Series/dp/1557831270



Read, and be amazed.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

Re: Most believe Lee Harvey Oswald was 'patsy'

Mon Nov 11, 2013 9:50 pm

ranskal wrote:I have no problem discussing a topic and listening to someone's opinion but when you start out by implying I am ignorant on the topic (previous topic) ...


We can only judge based on what you write. Sorry.


ranskal wrote:As for what you are trying to convey, from what I can gather, you believe Oswald was not the lone gunman and that there was a conspiracy to kill the President ...


After fifty years, the evidence overwhelmingly indicates that what Americans were told on November 22, 1963 is a lie.


ranskal wrote:I wonder what Elvis thought about the assassination theories.


You do need to catch up on your reading. It is documented in several biographies that Presley was convinced there was much more to the murder of President John F. Kennedy than what the Warren Commission stated in 1964.

It mirrors exactly what the majority of Americans feel in the 2013 poll reported in the newspaper article posted above. Once again, Elvis was ahead of the curve. ;-)

Re: Most believe Lee Harvey Oswald was 'patsy'

Mon Nov 11, 2013 11:43 pm

drjohncarpenter wrote:
ranskal wrote:I have no problem discussing a topic and listening to someone's opinion but when you start out by implying I am ignorant on the topic (previous topic) ...


We can only judge based on what you write. Sorry.


ranskal wrote:As for what you are trying to convey, from what I can gather, you believe Oswald was not the lone gunman and that there was a conspiracy to kill the President ...


After fifty years, the evidence overwhelmingly indicates that what Americans were told on November 22, 1963 is a lie.


ranskal wrote:I wonder what Elvis thought about the assassination theories.


You do need to catch up on your reading. It is documented in several biographies that Presley was convinced there was much more to the murder of President John F. Kennedy than what the Warren Commission stated in 1964.

It mirrors exactly what the majority of Americans feel in the 2013 poll reported in the newspaper article posted above. Once again, Elvis was ahead of the curve. ;-)


I like how you use "We" in your jab at me. We can agree to disagree, but the personal attacks are unnecessary.

Who do you think shot President Kennedy? You have yet to provide your opinion even though you continue to attack those that believe it was Oswald.

Re: Most believe Lee Harvey Oswald was 'patsy'

Tue Nov 12, 2013 12:30 am

Sidebar: Doc...just noticed your signature. Nicely done! Enjoyed that quote when your first posted it...glad it's up as your signature!

Thanks for the heads up on the JFK/Oliver Stone book...."JFK" is one of my favorite films and definitely changed my perspective on the assassination.

Re: Most believe Lee Harvey Oswald was 'patsy'

Tue Nov 12, 2013 1:05 am

Justin wrote:Sidebar: Doc...just noticed your signature. Nicely done! Enjoyed that quote when your first posted it...glad it's up as your signature!

Thanks for the heads up on the JFK/Oliver Stone book...."JFK" is one of my favorite films and definitely changed my perspective on the assassination.


Thanks. What some here seem unable to do is accept that I have read a lot on the subject and found the overall evidence, regarding events prior to the murder, the killing and its aftermath, absolutely destroys the lies handed to the American people starting 50 years ago.

I offered several books for further reading, not to mention a brilliant 2009 documentary that simply shows what people heard and saw in the media between November 22 and 24, 1963, a crucial time-frame with many clues for those with keen eyes and ears, and then suggested they draw their own conclusions.

Regretfully, the opaque thinking that has plagued the national discourse since 1963 continues even on this forum, and some of its members.

Re: Most believe Lee Harvey Oswald was 'patsy'

Tue Nov 12, 2013 1:40 am

ranskal wrote:
drjohncarpenter wrote:
ranskal wrote:I have no problem discussing a topic and listening to someone's opinion but when you start out by implying I am ignorant on the topic (previous topic) ...


We can only judge based on what you write. Sorry.


ranskal wrote:As for what you are trying to convey, from what I can gather, you believe Oswald was not the lone gunman and that there was a conspiracy to kill the President ...


After fifty years, the evidence overwhelmingly indicates that what Americans were told on November 22, 1963 is a lie.


ranskal wrote:I wonder what Elvis thought about the assassination theories.


You do need to catch up on your reading. It is documented in several biographies that Presley was convinced there was much more to the murder of President John F. Kennedy than what the Warren Commission stated in 1964.

It mirrors exactly what the majority of Americans feel in the 2013 poll reported in the newspaper article posted above. Once again, Elvis was ahead of the curve. ;-)


I like how you use "We" in your jab at me. We can agree to disagree, but the personal attacks are unnecessary.

Who do you think shot President Kennedy? You have yet to provide your opinion even though you continue to attack those that believe it was Oswald.


I have no idea who John thinks fired the fatal shot, but the evidence and logic points to the best shot in Texas. A professional hitman who shot a judge. A man who once said he fired the shot, and who was witnessed near the scene. There is also some photographic evidence far more compelling than for any other single individual.

Charles Harrelson.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Harrelson

rjm
(my apologies for the brief auto correct spelling error)

Sent From My Phabulous Galaxy Note II Phablet Using Tapatalk 4

Re: Most believe Lee Harvey Oswald was 'patsy'

Tue Nov 12, 2013 1:52 am

drjohncarpenter wrote:...What some here seem unable to do is accept that I have read a lot on the subject and found the overall evidence, regarding events prior to the murder, the killing and its aftermath, absolutely destroys the lies handed to the American people starting 50 years ago.

I offered several books for further reading, not to mention a brilliant 2009 documentary that simply shows what people heard and saw in the media between November 22 and 24, 1963, a crucial time-frame with many clues for those with keen eyes and ears, and then suggested they draw their own conclusions.

Regretfully, the opaque thinking that has plagued the national discourse since 1963 continues even on this forum, and some of its members.


Doc, you present compelling arguments, without question, and I sincerely appreciate the effort put forth to provide the links you have posted. What you seem to forget, or dismiss, is that a number of members here study as much as you do--at least where this topic is concerned. But you seem dumbfounded, aghast, and even a bit ego-bruised at the notion that others who've studied as much, or more, could possibly disagree with your beliefs. You sounded despaired at the mere suggestion that anyone could disagree simply because you've researched this topic to the degree that you have.

With as much studying as you've done, do you really take the time to research the opinions of those with whom you don't agree, or do you research like opinions only? I'm asking, not judging. I do, and I've vacillated a few times based on what I've seen or read. Nothing wrong with that. We learn more and more over time, and the quest for the truth is never-ending.

People are going to disagree. Not everyone is going to have the same beliefs as everyone else. There is no need for condescension.

Re: Most believe Lee Harvey Oswald was 'patsy'

Tue Nov 12, 2013 2:15 am

drjohncarpenter wrote:
Justin wrote:Sidebar: Doc...just noticed your signature. Nicely done! Enjoyed that quote when your first posted it...glad it's up as your signature!

Thanks for the heads up on the JFK/Oliver Stone book...."JFK" is one of my favorite films and definitely changed my perspective on the assassination.


Thanks. What some here seem unable to do is accept that I have read a lot on the subject and found the overall evidence, regarding events prior to the murder, the killing and its aftermath, absolutely destroys the lies handed to the American people starting 50 years ago.

I offered several books for further reading, not to mention a brilliant 2009 documentary that simply shows what people heard and saw in the media between November 22 and 24, 1963, a crucial time-frame with many clues for those with keen eyes and ears, and then suggested they draw their own conclusions.

Regretfully, the opaque thinking that has plagued the national discourse since 1963 continues even on this forum, and some of its members.


Of course it's all here - this is a small microcosm of society -- but big enough to be representative. Those who most vocally try to put this to rest probably do not represent the whole forum, who would rather keep their opinions silent. They undoubtedly match pretty well the general run of opinion polls. No one can force them to speak.

So, only a few will speak loudly either way. It is true, based on the percentage of Americans who do much (book-length) reading, that even most of those polled haven't read what a few have read. But very many have seen Stone's film, and either take it at face value or criticality evaluate what they've seen, using their own logic and emotion.

Most have concluded that it was no "lone nut."

Stone is quite solid on his research, which was based on the Garrison investigation, yet one can determine the larger motives for oneself -- not necessarily viewing the reasons behind what happened identically to Stone. And to his credit, he asked more significant questions than he answered. Which is why millions of pages of documents were released in response to his film.

But perhaps not the key documents, which remain unavailable. Some documents were destroyed long ago. So, some questions will always remain.

But those who are inquisitive will dig further. Elvis Presley actually read the Warren Commission report. So did Oliver Stone.

I wouldn't call those who believe the official story "dumb," because some smart people believe it. (Stephen King believes it, for instance.) I just do not believe such beliefs represent majority beliefs, even among well-known "smart" people.

Everyone has their reasons, I suppose. Some (not speaking for King, but others in the public eye) just want to be seen as "sane." There is a social stigma associated with rejecting the official story. One is called "a nut." Some are more brave. And some believe it. Not most.

rjm

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Re: Most believe Lee Harvey Oswald was 'patsy'

Tue Nov 12, 2013 3:51 am

KHoots wrote:What you seem to forget, or dismiss, is that a number of members here study as much as you do--at least where this topic is concerned.


One cannot "forget" or "dismiss" something that is not there. Such members as you describe are clearly not present on this topic. Sorry.

Re: Most believe Lee Harvey Oswald was 'patsy'

Tue Nov 12, 2013 4:28 am

It was a set up look at the home movie footage before the 1st shot one of The secret service men leave the side of the car.I blame LBJ.i think he and Hoover were in on it.
It was a one shot a through and through.And Jack Ruby shot Oswald cause he was going to blow the lid off what really happened.Ruby was payed off to shut him up.

Re: Most believe Lee Harvey Oswald was 'patsy'

Tue Nov 12, 2013 5:11 am

ritchie valens wrote:It was a set up look at the home movie footage before the 1st shot one of The secret service men leave the side of the car.I blame LBJ.i think he and Hoover were in on it.
It was a one shot a through and through.And Jack Ruby shot Oswald cause he was going to blow the lid off what really happened.Ruby was payed off to shut him up.


You may want to check with the doc before you make that claim, he seems to know how it happened. He has done the most research. :wink:

Re: Most believe Lee Harvey Oswald was 'patsy'

Tue Nov 12, 2013 5:52 am

I have too done that myself along with a friend for quite awhile probily longer than john has.

Re: Most believe Lee Harvey Oswald was 'patsy'

Tue Nov 12, 2013 6:20 am

I enjoyed watching this last night. You may too :wink:

phpBB [video]

Re: Most believe Lee Harvey Oswald was 'patsy'

Tue Nov 12, 2013 7:04 am

Julian Grant wrote:I enjoyed watching this last night. You may too :wink:

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Given my understanding, he's on the right track, but assigns a bit much to the Mafia's role, while failing to point the finger at the core perpetrators.

Re: Most believe Lee Harvey Oswald was 'patsy'

Tue Nov 12, 2013 7:48 am

drjohncarpenter wrote:
Julian Grant wrote:I enjoyed watching this last night. You may too :wink:

phpBB [video]



Given my understanding, he's on the right track, but assigns a bit much to the Mafia's role, while failing to point the finger at the core perpetrators.


Did you watch the full 1:12 minutes? He's quite clear who the core perpetrator was.

Re: Most believe Lee Harvey Oswald was 'patsy'

Tue Nov 12, 2013 9:43 am

Julian Grant wrote:
drjohncarpenter wrote:
Julian Grant wrote:I enjoyed watching this last night. You may too :wink:

phpBB [video]



Given my understanding, he's on the right track, but assigns a bit much to the Mafia's role, while failing to point the finger at the core perpetrators.


Did you watch the full 1:12 minutes? He's quite clear who the core perpetrator was.


I haven't finished watching it, but he is of the "LBJ" school of thought, with help from the usual suspects.

The problem with that is that in trying to locate one ringleader, one needs the kind of rock-solid proof to back up such an allegation. There were a number of parties with motive, means and opportunity. He would be among them. But I just don't think it survives the test of reasonable doubt and to a moral certainty.

He had motive. That's not the kind of proof I would need as a juror. Sometimes, murders just end with "not guilty." And after that, one makes up one's own mind. Certainly, all the documents in a murder should be available to the public, unlike in this case. This withholding of evidence is the chief crime against the American people.

Conspiracies, even "little ones," are usually messy things, with more than one individual having a hand in a crime.

Many "street" murders involve more than one person, and are conspiracies. And sometimes the wrong guy gets executed! It can be very difficult to find a "ringleader." It's possible - that LBJ had involvement. That's all anyone can say. I cannot, in good conscience, "convict" him. There are others who are known to have involvement, for sure. A lot of them got killed.

Some cases, very high profile cases in which guilt is absolutely believed by all the authorities, particularly the media, turn out to be completely wrong. Watch Burns' "Central Park Five." Anyone can learn more about a rush to judgment from that, than anything else I know.

rjm

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