Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Mon May 14, 2012 7:16 pm

I was just wondering where the topic went... :mrgreen:

As there is probably nothing new to add I decided to upload this little introduction here again (posted it a while ago on a different thread):

Elvis introduces Tiger Man (live August 24, 1970 M. S.).wav (1.31 MB)
http://www9.zippyshare.com/v/14032445/file.html

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Sun May 27, 2012 4:41 pm

The cd "We Have Not Rehearsed Them!" lists Tiger Man as being from 1973:

Tiger Man – slow version – (Las Vegas, NV. August 11, 1973 M.S.)

Is this true, and are there other Tiger Man live versions from after the august-september 1970 season, apart from that partially recorded soundboard version we got from august 1972 ?

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Mon May 28, 2012 7:22 am

Joe Car wrote:
KiwiAlan wrote:Any sane person would accept Ernst word on the subject.

He has no knowledge of Elvis Presley recording Tiger Man at SUN records.



But now we have some being or force who knows better...........it will be fascinating if this person, or force escapes the deluded mind it is trapped in :D


True, but Elvis mentioned recording Tiger Man, in some manner, too many times in August of 1970, to have it be discounted because we don't have it on wax. We catch Elvis in top form in 1970, which to me means, that he isn't going to make a mistake like saying he recorded a record, when he didn't during this time frame, no way. JMO.


But he never mentioned it before or after those handful of times in August 70. which maybe means something made him think that but then he realized he was wrong or someone told him he was wrong and then he never mentioned it again.

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Mon May 28, 2012 7:40 am

DEH wrote:
Joe Car wrote:
KiwiAlan wrote:Any sane person would accept Ernst word on the subject.

He has no knowledge of Elvis Presley recording Tiger Man at SUN records.



But now we have some being or force who knows better...........it will be fascinating if this person, or force escapes the deluded mind it is trapped in :D


True, but Elvis mentioned recording Tiger Man, in some manner, too many times in August of 1970, to have it be discounted because we don't have it on wax. We catch Elvis in top form in 1970, which to me means, that he isn't going to make a mistake like saying he recorded a record, when he didn't during this time frame, no way. JMO.


But he never mentioned it before or after those handful of times in August 70. which maybe means something made him think that but then he realized he was wrong or someone told him he was wrong and then he never mentioned it again.

After all the rehearsals and the setlists not to mention the 68 special that had a themed sitdown that mentions by Elvis "I want to kinda give you an idea how i started out " and then after 3 years he figures out he was wrong? I highly doubt it.

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Mon May 28, 2012 8:57 am

promiseland wrote:
DEH wrote:
Joe Car wrote:
KiwiAlan wrote:Any sane person would accept Ernst word on the subject.

He has no knowledge of Elvis Presley recording Tiger Man at SUN records.



But now we have some being or force who knows better...........it will be fascinating if this person, or force escapes the deluded mind it is trapped in :D


True, but Elvis mentioned recording Tiger Man, in some manner, too many times in August of 1970, to have it be discounted because we don't have it on wax. We catch Elvis in top form in 1970, which to me means, that he isn't going to make a mistake like saying he recorded a record, when he didn't during this time frame, no way. JMO.


But he never mentioned it before or after those handful of times in August 70. which maybe means something made him think that but then he realized he was wrong or someone told him he was wrong and then he never mentioned it again.

After all the rehearsals and the setlists not to mention the 68 special that had a themed sitdown that mentions by Elvis "I want to kinda give you an idea how i started out " and then after 3 years he figures out he was wrong? I highly doubt it.


He never talks about "Tigerman" other than those few shows in August, never before that or after it.

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Mon May 28, 2012 9:01 am

DEH wrote:
promiseland wrote:
DEH wrote:
Joe Car wrote:
KiwiAlan wrote:Any sane person would accept Ernst word on the subject.

He has no knowledge of Elvis Presley recording Tiger Man at SUN records.



But now we have some being or force who knows better...........it will be fascinating if this person, or force escapes the deluded mind it is trapped in :D


True, but Elvis mentioned recording Tiger Man, in some manner, too many times in August of 1970, to have it be discounted because we don't have it on wax. We catch Elvis in top form in 1970, which to me means, that he isn't going to make a mistake like saying he recorded a record, when he didn't during this time frame, no way. JMO.


But he never mentioned it before or after those handful of times in August 70. which maybe means something made him think that but then he realized he was wrong or someone told him he was wrong and then he never mentioned it again.

After all the rehearsals and the setlists not to mention the 68 special that had a themed sitdown that mentions by Elvis "I want to kinda give you an idea how i started out " and then after 3 years he figures out he was wrong? I highly doubt it.


He never talks about "Tigerman" other than those few shows in August, never before that or after it.

I think it was a acetate right after "My Happiness" and he prob wasn't happy with it and ditched it.

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Mon May 28, 2012 9:25 am

Here's something I think most people who have discussed the possibilitiy of Elvis recording "Tiger Man" while at Sun Records and the capacity of Elvis' memory seem to forget. During the August 12, 1970 Midnight Show where Elvis performs "Little Sister / Get Back," he first announces it (the "Little Sister" portion that is) as a record that he recorded before he went into the army. Within a few seconds, he corrects himself and tells the audience that it was after he got out of the Army that he recorded "Little Sister." I think this kind of proves that Elvis' memory of recalling events was very much intact during the Aug. '70 engagement. Granted, 1961 was more recent than 1954 in relation to August, 1970.

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Mon May 28, 2012 9:43 am

It's somewhere buried in this monster thread, when I first appeared here, and no one knew who I was from a hole in the wall, and I didn't bother to cite very well, but I reminded folks of something. He DID "talk about "Tiger Man" on another occasion, when discussing his career. And in an emotionally charged context.

Because I didn't cite what I was saying, it sounded stupid (a little black box of CDs), and didn't name the writer of the liner notes, we (the Doc and this forum-newbie interloper) got into it a little bit, but then we PM'd, and everything was super-cool. But I learned that this forum was not a place just to throw stuff around without academic-style citation! (And that's a darn good thing for the Internet, I'd say, on reflection.)

Anyway, Harvey Kubernick wrote the liner notes to the "little black box of CDs" which were the "complete" audio CDs of The Complete '68 Comeback Special

Here's the "little black box" that I so cherished, and just assumed everyone had ESP about:

'68 Comeback Comeplete Audio.jpg


And this fellow, Kubernick interviewed various people, including the "belly dancer" Tanya, and most significantly here, for our purposes, Chris Bearde.

They were just getting ideas about how to structure the show on June 5, 1968, and putting them together, in an office. The writers were there, Steve, etc. And Elvis, of course. A TV was on, just a few steps away, either in the room, or the next. Right there. And it was pretty late. The news was on, and the results of the California primary had come in, and RFK made his victory speech. We don't know which network, of course. Within around 20 minutes of the shooting that followed the speech, the anchors returned to the air, describing the scene, awaiting film of the scene. (ABC radio stayed live, but it was all audio, and one network had a mute feed of the ballroom, that would have been live, but they went off, and it was in the ballroom, not the kitchen.)

Anyway, within 20 minutes, whilst Elvis and the writers, etc., were talking about what the show should be, the news bulletin came on that yet another assasination had just taken place immediately after the speech. Lamar Fike remembers, in the MM book (don't have it here, but I'm doggone sure it's there - Heaven help me), Elvis going "turn on your TV!!" That is not in the liner notes, but it buttresses their account tremendously.

Well, Elvis calmed down about the news, which prattled on in the background for hours, and he took a guitar, and began to pick on it, and speak. (I was just a little sprout in Florida, on vacation in a hotel with my folks, sleeping on a cot, when I awoke to a medical doctor with a stick in his hand, pointing at a map of the human brain. I always turned on the TV the instant I awoke: still do. If I got up at about 6 AM, it was 3 AM in L.A. You can bet your bippie they were on in L.A.)

But Elvis wasn't apparently listening too much to the specifics; he seemed to have it figured out, according to Steve. Thought it was a conspiracy. Doesn't matter: it seemed to trigger something in him, and he "picked, not strummed" on the guitar, Bearde told Kubernick, for hours. I believe he said "five" hours . . . no one remembers perfectly, but let's say it was through the night 'till the morning. In L.A. And as he picked, not strummed, he spoke.

And he talked about being the target of assaults in his early career. He had just "seen" (well, the film took a while, but the descriptions were graphic) a far more violent assault than any he had experienced, but he felt like sharing his being a public figure, with people who wanted to punch him. That was a big theme.

And, Bearde said, he talked about music. Specifically, in this interview with Kubernick, Bearde said he talked about a song called "Tiger Man."

Bearde apparently did not reveal what Elvis said about this song. So we can only speculate. But he was feeling a little grumpy about his early career: how people were attacking him, and so forth. I have no idea how this could tie in, this sense of being under assault - with the song. But in the notes, no other song is mentioned in this marathon talkfest, by Elvis, as he picked the guitar. (This generally helped him talk, as it did a year later during a brief interview on the set of COH: "he seizes a guitar," and then he quite "staring at his hands.")

I think the idea of Elvis talking about his career planted a seed right there, for the sit-down shows, and the the dressing room jams totally sealed it.

The point is that he DID talk about "Tiger Man." Specifically. We just don't know what he said about it. But there seemed to be emotion attached to it. We can't know what that is.

Kubernick does not quote Bearde or anyone else mentioning any other song from his long talk that night other than "Tiger Man."

Hope all is cleared up about that aspect. This thread got me in here, like it or not! (Now, now. Be nice. I might "fake my own . . ." Aw, I'll cut it out! Enough of that. {wink and smirk})

What I am saying is that there is evidence that he had an itch he needed to scratch about "Tiger Man" even before 1970. We don't know what it involves. Very soon, we may find out that we may never know. (Or, if the Lord Above is merciful upon us, we may be delighted! Wishful thinking, anyway.)

rjm
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Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Mon May 28, 2012 10:33 am

Fascinating, rjm ! Most interesting post I've read in a while.

Steve Morse

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Mon May 28, 2012 12:27 pm

Steve Morse wrote:Fascinating, rjm ! Most interesting post I've read in a while.

Steve Morse


Why, thank you Steve! :D (I just hope for the best for "A Boy From Tupelo.")

rjm

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Wed Jul 25, 2012 10:02 pm

Has anybody ever asked Sam Philips did he record "Tiger Man" with Elvis?

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Wed Jul 25, 2012 10:34 pm

Greg1995 wrote:Has anybody ever asked Sam Phillips did he record "Tiger Man" with Elvis?

Sadly, this does not seem to be the case.

Of course, in the late 1980s, when Sam was played the 1953 acetate of "My Happiness," his initial response was that it was not Elvis. That unusual and unexpected response, of course, is a whole 'nother topic.

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Wed Jul 25, 2012 10:41 pm

I remember the day this topic started...:

viewtopic.php?p=801822#p801822

I still don't understand all the negativity that was present here. It's an important and interesting topic plus we have some sort of evidence that he indeed recorded it. Surely the negativity is because Doc was the one to start such topic and when he says it, it seems that many people just jump at the chance to offend him and dismiss anything he has to present. But if one consider the matter at hand with an open mind, you can see the possibility (for those of you who are "anti-Doc"). There IS definitely a possibility that Elvis recorded "Tiger Man" back in the Sun days and I don't understand the "no, he didn't, stop the fantasy" attitude.

I also would like to add that I'm sure the Doc knows a lot about certain things and there must be a few matters he can't openly discuss thus the "someone or something beyond Ernst's work" comments. At least that's what I think, be free to correct me. My personal opinion is that Elvis did record Tiger Man. If the Sun project will answer the question or not, that's a different story... Just look at the newly discovered "I Forgot to...", Ernst didn't even know about it (and it wasn't his fault).

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Wed Jul 25, 2012 10:48 pm

Thanks. Your assessments are correct.

I would so love to hear a 1954 recording of Elvis, Scotty and Bill doing "Tiger Man." The great amount of time and effort I spent researching and compiling this topic was based on this careless love.

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Wed Jul 25, 2012 11:22 pm

Would Tiger Man not be one of the songs on the 2 acetates that the lady retained when she sold the 2nd acetate to Sean O'Neal or am I getting my wires crossed?

I'd wager the 2 remaining acetates were considered even more special than the one she gave up so I'd guess Tiger Man, Casual Love Affair, Without You and Rag Mop.

Ain't life grand ;)

elvisonline
Last edited by elvisonline on Thu Jul 26, 2012 8:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Wed Jul 25, 2012 11:32 pm

elvisonline wrote:Would Tiger Man not be one of the songs on the 2 acetates that the lady retained when she sold the 2nd acetate to Sean O'Neil or am I getting my wires crossed?

There's no indication to date -- and we're talking about 20 years now -- that there were two more possible acetates in that O'Neal purchase or -- if there were -- that they contained Elvis Presley performances.

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Wed Jul 25, 2012 11:35 pm

drjohncarpenter wrote:Thanks. Your assessments are correct.

I would so love to hear a 1954 recording of Elvis, Scotty and Bill doing "Tiger Man." The great amount of time and effort I spent researching and compiling this topic was based on this careless love.


Your research efforts are always appreciated by this fan.

Imagine the "careless love" that would be bestowed upon this recording if it were found and released. It would dwarf the high level of interest that was shown in the incredible live recording of "I Forgot To Remember To Forget" when it made its improbable yet memorable appearance this month.

I look forward to the day when "A Boy From Tupelo" arrives and I can enjoy the new information in the book and, perhaps, a few audio surprises on the CDs.

I will have to withdraw from the world for a few days to take it all in!

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Wed Jul 25, 2012 11:56 pm

Rtn 2 Sndr wrote:I look forward to the day when "A Boy From Tupelo" arrives and I can enjoy the new information in the book and, perhaps, a few audio surprises on the CDs.

I will have to withdraw from the world for a few days to take it all in!


You know, I'm even thinking about taking a day off work when this baby arrives.

Forget the Olympics, this is what summer 2012 is really going to be about in this small corner of South-East London!

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Thu Jul 26, 2012 1:14 am

drjohncarpenter wrote:Thanks. Your assessments are correct.

I would so love to hear a 1954 recording of Elvis, Scotty and Bill doing "Tiger Man." The great amount of time and effort I spent researching and compiling this topic was based on this careless love.


I can understand your feelings and thoughts when compiling this topic. Those were the magic days when our hero was unstoppable, when he had the eager to change the world and do his own thing... And man, did he! If this recording was to be released for us it would bring tears to my eyes, that's for sure. That old magic is still around! I'm sorry if I can't find the proper "beautiful" words to express my feelings but I hope that you're able to understand it.

It's a shame to think that such treasure may exist and it's out of our reach. To think that this and other treasures may be out there and we may never have the chance to listen to it makes me terribly sad...

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Thu Jul 26, 2012 8:58 am

Any unreleased tracks from that period that still exist that we don't ever get to hear would be a crying shame.

Hearing Tiger Man would be amazing but that said, we already have great versions of this track. Me personally I would like to hear tracks we've never heard Elvis sing.

elvisonline

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Wed Nov 28, 2012 11:15 pm

Just listened to a show from February 1971 and Elvis does the "my 2nd record" and goes into Mystery train.

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Wed Nov 28, 2012 11:19 pm

date..please.. :smt006

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Wed Nov 28, 2012 11:52 pm

Superfluous information that adds nothing to this topic is not welcome.

Thanks.

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Thu Nov 29, 2012 10:39 am

drjohncarpenter wrote:Superfluous information that adds nothing to this topic is not welcome.

Thanks.


Well, it at least indicates a more lasting memory for Elvis than a few odd shows in 1970. So we now know he was talking about this from at least mid 1968 to 1971. I don't think with that kind of timescale we are just talking a temporary misremembered fact by Elvis.

Tiger Man discovery would be great but these days I am more inclined to celebrate the gems we do have and what has survived than speculate on what we don't have.

Listen to My Happiness on the Complete Masters set. This for me was and still is the Holy Grail. How after all those years this first recording was discovered and how magnificent it sounds in 2012 compared to that scratchy acetate first heard on The Great Performances for me is astonishing.

elvisonline

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Thu Nov 29, 2012 11:03 am

DEH wrote:Just listened to a show from February 1971 and Elvis does the "my 2nd record" and goes into Mystery train.


It's moot. I don't think the research is in vain, because it tends to show that it did, at some point in time, exist. I think we can conclude that it no longer exists. And hasn't for a VERY long time. I still believe it did exist - that he did record it in some manner, early on. And I think it was destroyed.

Sam kept lousy records, and he also taped over stuff willy-nilly. I don't know if acetates are sturdy or fragile, but it was my understanding that they could be broken. Smashed to bits. Please correct me if I'm wrong. In any event, I believe it did exist, but that it is gone. Never to be heard. Recorded or not (and maybe he thought it was being recorded?), we can guess what it sounded like back then: listen to the difference between "Tryin' To Get To You" between the earliest version and the '68 version. Do the same with "When It Rains, It Really Pours." That would give you a hint of how he sounded when singing it, wherever, whenever, or under whatever circumstances. (OR, it could have been slower. And that would be exciting to hear, but it doesn't exist today to hear it.)

There is nothing "careless" about using your imagination. It was Albert Einstein who said "Imagination is more important than knowledge." Which means the knowledge would never come to be without first using one's imagination. No one should apologize for using their imagination to try to figure something out! No one.

Besides, I'm still intrigued by the thing that drew me in here in the first place: those audio samples of the songs themselves, and what he calls "the normal tempo." No other variation on the song was released until years after his death. I was practically jumping up and down, hearing this magic over a dial-up connection in the middle of the night. (I had recently had major surgery, and a part of me wondered, the next morning if I had imagined it. They give you a lotta drugs. ;) ) Naw, seriously, I rarely "signed-up" anywhere for anything back then. It was a big deal for me to do that, to register, but you had to do that to participate in any way. All I was doing was a search on Joe Hill Louis, and I just landed there, and wow! Elvis is doing the song, and he tells the band "sound like a buncha rabbits" as I recall. Just amazed me.

So, no apologies, or self-recriminations necessary in this matter.

So, if it does not exist, there is the possibility that it never did. But I think the odds are better that it did once exist. Now, it's like a sand castle. Washed to the sea, as though it had never been.

Would have been great if he'd have given a really in-depth interview with Rolling Stone, or Playboy, or one of those. Better yet if he had LIVED to give such an interview, later. If it existed in his memory, that leads me to believe strongly that it once existed in reality. What he means by "second record" is definitely different than what others mean by it, but that doesn't mean it didn't exist. But it's gone, as is he.

This song exists, and I recently discovered it - here. It's beautiful. A lost gem. "Sand Castles." It's a tribute to magical thread . . . and a thank you. Listen to the lyrics, and the lovely way he sings them.

phpBB [video]



rjm