Re: Elvis --> July 3, 1956 Acetates Mystery !

Thu Jan 13, 2011 9:56 pm

My first thought was that the Sun-package might be "Fools hall of fame" which at some point Elvis wanted to record (though I don't remember if it was in '56 or '55) and there are three Sun recordings of that song. Johnny Cash, Roy Orbison and Rudi Richardson. The latter's version was recorded in '57 Cash's around the same time I believe. But what about Orbison's version? Couldn't find any info

Re: Elvis --> July 3, 1956 Acetates Mystery !

Thu Jan 13, 2011 10:10 pm

Rocker wrote:My first thought was that the Sun-package might be "Fools hall of fame" which at some point Elvis wanted to record (though I don't remember if it was in '56 or '55) and there are three Sun recordings of that song. Johnny Cash, Roy Orbison and Rudi Richardson. The latter's version was recorded in '57 Cash's around the same time I believe. But what about Orbison's version? Couldn't find any info

The song could not have been in that Sun Records package we see on the train, as the first recording, Rudi Richardson's original single (Sun 271 - Fools Hall of Fame / Why Should I Cry), was issued in April 1957.

Re: Elvis --> July 3, 1956 Acetates Mystery !

Fri Jan 14, 2011 1:12 am

KiwiAlan wrote:
I might point out that there is no evidence that he was listening to session outtakes either. I would have thought that session outtakes being made into acetates would be most unusual....have any other turned up


Alternate masters and full takes later used for spliced masters have.

Re: Elvis --> July 3, 1956 Acetates Mystery !

Fri Jan 14, 2011 1:51 am

The notion that Elvis received demos from Sam Phillips seems stronger after reviewing the record company's recent output. From January to June, Sun Records issued 10 singles.

It would seem that of these, Elvis would have had ample time to pick up copies of those that he wanted. From May 29 to June 21 he was in Memphis for about 14 days total, and no doubt dropped by Poplar Tunes and 706 Union during that period.

Elvis attended the Sun Records show at the Overton Park Shell in Memphis on Friday, June 1. On the bill that night: Carl Perkins and Johnny Cash, along with Warren Smith, Eddie Bond, and Roy Orbison. Wow.

Certainly Presley made sure to have most, if not all, of their newest platters.


Image

Carl Perkins backstage at Overton Park Shell, Friday, June 1, 1956


Image

Carl Perkins and Elvis, backstage at Overton Park Shell, Friday June 1, 1956


On the other hand, to date Sam did not feel Elvis' RCA recordings had begun to capture the artist he nurtured. As a producer, friend and businessman, it makes sense Phillips would ship Elvis some more suitable material for consideration. Of course, after the RCA release of "Don't Be Cruel" in mid-July, Phillips told Steve Sholes they were getting it right at last.

Any additional information is welcome!

---

Here are the 78 RPM releases from Sun Records between January and June 1956:

January 1956
Sun 230 - The Miller Sisters
There's No Right Way To Do Me Wrong / You Can Tell Me

Sun 233 - Billy "The Kid" Emerson
Little Fine Healthy Thing / Something For Nothing



April 1956
Sun 238 - Slim Rhodes
Gonna Romp And Stomp / Bad Girl

B-side features Brad Suggs on lead vocals, he plays guitar in Elvis' band at the February 25, 1961 Memphis shows.
B-side also includes steel guitar by John Hughey, who does the same at American Sound in 1969 for "In The Ghetto," "From A Jack To A King" and "Rubberneckin'"


Sun 239 - Warren Smith
Rock 'N' Roll Ruby / I'd Rather Be Safe Than Sorry

Sun 240 - Jack Earls and the Jimbos
Slow Down / A Fool For Lovin' You

Sun 241 - Johnny Cash and Tennessee Two
Get Rhythm / I Walk The Line



May 1956
Sun 242 - Roy Orbison and Teen Kings
Ooby Dooby / Go! Go! Go!

Elvis name checks "Ooby Dooby" at his May 16 Little Rock concert.

Sun 243 - Carl Perkins
Boppin' The Blues / All Mama's Children



June 1956
Sun 244 - Jean Chapel
Welcome To The Club / I Won't Be Rockin' Tonight
Last edited by drjohncarpenter on Tue Jun 03, 2014 11:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Re: Elvis --> July 3, 1956 Acetates Mystery !

Fri Jan 14, 2011 1:59 am

sadly this is likely to be a mystery we'll never solve

Re: Elvis --> July 3, 1956 Acetates Mystery !

Fri Jan 14, 2011 2:59 am

Look at that picture of Elvis and Carl. What a cool thing it must have been to be Elvis in 1956! What a year he had.

Steve L.

Re: Elvis --> July 3, 1956 Acetates Mystery !

Sat Jan 15, 2011 1:47 am

rickeap wrote:sadly this is likely to be a mystery we'll never solve

Perhaps someone looking in on this forum will provide a clue or three.

Re: Elvis --> July 3, 1956 Acetates Mystery !

Sat Jan 15, 2011 2:35 am

drjohncarpenter wrote:Sun 241 - Johnny Cash and Tennessee Two
Get Rhythm / I Walk The Line [/color]





And interestingly, I remember Cash saying that he wrote "Get rhythm" for Elvis or smething to that effect.

http://www.elvis.com.au/presley/johnny_cash_remembers_elvis_presley.shtml


While at Sun, Cash also wrote You're My Baby for Roy Orbison and Get Rhythm for Elvis Presley, though Cash described how, when Sam Phillips sold his interest in Presley to RCA, he wouldn't allow Elvis to take Get Rhythm with him, and put it on the B side of Cash's I Walk The Line instead.


The last part suggests something else, though. But it could be wrong of course

Re: Elvis --> July 3, 1956 Acetates Mystery !

Sat Jan 15, 2011 4:06 am

Rocker wrote:... I remember Cash saying that he wrote "Get rhythm" for Elvis or something to that effect.

If Cash did say something like this, it may be another wishful memory, like his claim he's singing on the known MDQ jam recordings.

Johnny cut "Get Rhythm" and "I Walk The Line" at 706 Union on Sunday, April 2, 1956, and the single was issued shortly after. Elvis left Sun for RCA in early November 1955. It seems doubtful that Johnny:

a) Wrote "Get Rhythm" prior to November 1955
b) Held the song for 7 months before recording it

Also, Johnny demoed "You're My Baby" at his first visit to Sun in late 1954, well before he knew Roy Orbison.

Cash did not meet Orbison until he was a guest in 1955 on Roy's weekly local Saturday TV show in Odessa, Texas, on KOSA-TV, which was part of the national CBS network. He gave Roy Sam Phillips' phone number, and told him to call.

Sam eventually signed him after hearing Roy and the Teen Kings' Je-Wel 101 single of of the Eagles' "Tryin' To Get To You" backed with "Ooby Dooby," recorded at Norman Petty's studio in Clovis, New Mexico. They re-recorded "Ooby Dooby" for Sun in March 1956 and the single peaked at #59 on the Billboard Pop chart that June.

Re: Elvis --> July 3, 1956 Acetates Mystery !

Sat Jan 15, 2011 4:21 am

Great topic!

I love reading all this information. Makes me wonder and pray that the outtakes for Hound Dog and Don't Be Cruel are still around and in someone's hands. I am 50 years old and I hope that IF they are out there somewhere that they get released in my lifetime! :)

Mitch

Re: Elvis --> July 3, 1956 Acetates Mystery !

Mon Jan 17, 2011 1:17 pm

Mitch wrote:Great topic!

I love reading all this information. Makes me wonder and pray that the outtakes for Hound Dog and Don't Be Cruel are still around and in someone's hands. I am 50 years old and I hope that IF they are out there somewhere that they get released in my lifetime! :)

That's two of us.

Re: Elvis --> July 3, 1956 Acetates Mystery !

Mon Jan 17, 2011 2:21 pm

drjohncarpenter wrote:
Rocker wrote:... I remember Cash saying that he wrote "Get rhythm" for Elvis or something to that effect.

If Cash did say something like this, it may be another wishful memory, like his claim he's singing on the known MDQ jam recordings.

Johnny cut "Get Rhythm" and "I Walk The Line" at 706 Union on Sunday, April 2, 1956, and the single was issued shortly after. Elvis left Sun for RCA in early November 1955. It seems doubtful that Johnny:

a) Wrote "Get Rhythm" prior to November 1955
b) Held the song for 7 months before recording it

Also, Johnny demoed "You're My Baby" at his first visit to Sun in late 1954, well before he knew Roy Orbison.

Cash did not meet Orbison until he was a guest in 1955 on Roy's weekly local Saturday TV show in Odessa, Texas, on KOSA-TV, which was part of the national CBS network. He gave Roy Sam Phillips' phone number, and told him to call.

Sam eventually signed him after hearing Roy and the Teen Kings' Je-Wel 101 single of of the Eagles' "Tryin' To Get To You" backed with "Ooby Dooby," recorded at Norman Petty's studio in Clovis, New Mexico. They re-recorded "Ooby Dooby" for Sun in March 1956 and the single peaked at #59 on the Billboard Pop chart that June.


Cash did demo "Get Rhythm." When he did so is uncertain. The upcoming "From Memphis To Hollywood: Bootleg Volume 2" by Sony Legacy features a number of early demos and even they do not have dates for when these demos were recorded.

Daryl

Re: Elvis --> July 3, 1956 Acetates Mystery !

Mon Jan 17, 2011 4:07 pm

I'm still AMAZED at how this interesting piece of info hasn't seen the light of day till you spotted it Doc. What a load of info a simple photo can bring up. I gotta start looking at photos more closely.
A million thanks for bringing this up ... I have thoroughly enjoyed its reading.
Cheers mate.

Re: Elvis --> July 3, 1956 Acetates Mystery !

Mon Jan 17, 2011 8:51 pm

Daryl wrote:
drjohncarpenter wrote:
Rocker wrote:... I remember Cash saying that he wrote "Get rhythm" for Elvis or something to that effect.

If Cash did say something like this, it may be another wishful memory, like his claim he's singing on the known MDQ jam recordings.

Johnny cut "Get Rhythm" and "I Walk The Line" at 706 Union on Sunday, April 2, 1956, and the single was issued shortly after. Elvis left Sun for RCA in early November 1955. It seems doubtful that Johnny:

a) Wrote "Get Rhythm" prior to November 1955
b) Held the song for 7 months before recording it

Also, Johnny demoed "You're My Baby" at his first visit to Sun in late 1954, well before he knew Roy Orbison.

Cash did not meet Orbison until he was a guest in 1955 on Roy's weekly local Saturday TV show in Odessa, Texas, on KOSA-TV, which was part of the national CBS network. He gave Roy Sam Phillips' phone number, and told him to call.

Sam eventually signed him after hearing Roy and the Teen Kings' Je-Wel 101 single of of the Eagles' "Tryin' To Get To You" backed with "Ooby Dooby," recorded at Norman Petty's studio in Clovis, New Mexico. They re-recorded "Ooby Dooby" for Sun in March 1956 and the single peaked at #59 on the Billboard Pop chart that June.


Cash did demo "Get Rhythm." When he did so is uncertain. The upcoming "From Memphis To Hollywood: Bootleg Volume 2" by Sony Legacy features a number of early demos and even they do not have dates for when these demos were recorded.

Daryl



The demo of "I Walk the Line" will be most interesting, because it should clear up once and for all whether Johnny Cash truly envisioned it as a slow song.

With regard to "Get Rhythm" and whether it was intended for Elvis, Johnny Cash demoed other uptempo songs during 1954-55; "You're My Baby" and "Rock and Roll Ruby" come to mind. Unfortunately, Johnny seems ill at ease performing these songs. Perhaps Johnny did envision "Get Rhythm" as a song better suited to someone like Carl Perkins or Elvis than to himself. And given the difficulty in getting songs to Elvis in that era (or maybe ANY era), Sam Phillips may have counseled Johnny to record it himself. The result is one of Johnny's best uptempo songs he recorded at Sun.

Johnny Cash is also a purported participant in the development of "Blue Suede Shoes" by Carl Perkins. In "Man In Black", Johnny tells the story of an Air Force Sargeant who was a snappy dresser and kidded about his regulation boots being blue suede. Johnny related the story to Carl and the rest was history.

Interestingly enough, Johnny was not credited as a composer on this song, although he was credited on another Perkins recording, "All Mama's Children". Was it a payback? If so, Johnny got the short end of the deal. How many artists have covered "All Mama's Children" compared to "Blue Suede Shoes"?

An interesting topic. Hope I didn't get too far off topic. I'm looking forward to the "Bootleg 2" set myself. I hope the FTD Sun project isn't too far behind in the release schedule.

Re: Elvis --> July 3, 1956 Acetates Mystery !

Mon Jan 17, 2011 9:45 pm

Rtn 2 Sndr wrote:Johnny Cash is also a purported participant in the development of "Blue Suede Shoes" by Carl Perkins. In "Man In Black", Johnny tells the story of an Air Force Sargeant who was a snappy dresser and kidded about his regulation boots being blue suede. Johnny related the story to Carl and the rest was history.

Interestingly enough, Johnny was not credited as a composer on this song, although he was credited on another Perkins recording, "All Mama's Children". Was it a payback? If so, Johnny got the short end of the deal. How many artists have covered "All Mama's Children" compared to "Blue Suede Shoes"?




It's easy, Cash didn't write or co-write "Blue suede shoes". He just told Carl (who btw told Cash to rename "Because you're mine" to "I walk the line") a story he had witnessed. And Carl often said that he saw a guy dancing with his girlfriend and telling her not to step on his blue suede shoes. So you have two stories. "All mama's children" and "That's right" were written by the two of them.

phpBB [video]

Re: Elvis --> July 3, 1956 Acetates Mystery !

Tue Jan 18, 2011 12:14 am

Rocker wrote:. "All mama's children" and "That's right" were written by the two of them.


I had forgotten about "That's Right". Thanks for the clip from the "Johnny Cash Show". Excellent!

Re: Elvis --> July 3, 1956 Acetates Mystery !

Tue Jan 18, 2011 12:47 am

Rtn 2 Sndr wrote:With regard to "Get Rhythm" and whether it was intended for Elvis, Johnny Cash demoed other uptempo songs during 1954-55; "You're My Baby" and "Rock and Roll Ruby" come to mind. Unfortunately, Johnny seems ill at ease performing these songs. Perhaps Johnny did envision "Get Rhythm" as a song better suited to someone like Carl Perkins or Elvis than to himself.

It seems doubtful "Rock and Roll Ruby" was demoed in 1954, the term rock and roll didn't begin to become common coin until well into the next year.

"Get Rhythm" would have been perfect material for Carl Perkins, but Johnny's Sun recording is indeed a classic track.

Oh, the mysteries of Sun Studios. Such great music came out of 706 Union!

Re: Elvis --> July 3, 1956 Acetates Mystery !

Tue Jan 18, 2011 5:08 am

Actually, Johnny Cash demoed "Rock & Roll Ruby" at KWEM in 1955. There is a rumor that Johnny didn't write the song but instead bought it from aspiring country star George Jones.

Doc, you are right about Sun. For everything that is known (and there is a lot), there are lots of unanswered questions.

Re: Elvis --> July 3, 1956 Acetates Mystery !

Tue Jan 18, 2011 8:59 am

Sessionman wrote:I'm still AMAZED at how this interesting piece of info hasn't seen the light of day till you spotted it Doc. What a load of info a simple photo can bring up. I gotta start looking at photos more closely.
A million thanks for bringing this up ... I have thoroughly enjoyed its reading.
Cheers mate.

Thank you so very much!


Rtn 2 Sndr wrote:Actually, Johnny Cash demoed "Rock & Roll Ruby" at KWEM in 1955. There is a rumor that Johnny didn't write the song but instead bought it from aspiring country star George Jones.

Doc, you are right about Sun. For everything that is known (and there is a lot), there are lots of unanswered questions.

Thanks for the confirmation about "Ruby"!

Re: Elvis --> July 3, 1956 Acetates Mystery !

Wed Jan 19, 2011 4:38 am

I didn't want to start another thread, so I'll ask my question here: Is there any release date at all for Ernst's Sun Session box on Elvis?

Re: Elvis --> July 3, 1956 Acetates Mystery !

Wed Jan 19, 2011 5:03 am

There's a section in Elvis '56 where they talk about the acetates that Elvis is shown with in the pics:

Beginning @ 7:13
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVUU3NxwiOU

The beginning up until about 3:30
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZjPr4VI ... re=related

I'm having a tough time seeing 'at least a half dozen' acetates in that pic though. Elvis '56 mentions three acetates, which is a number I'm more inclined to believe based on the photos.

Re: Elvis --> July 3, 1956 Acetates Mystery !

Thu Jul 05, 2012 1:46 am

RonBaker2003 wrote:I didn't want to start another thread, so I'll ask my question here: Is there any release date at all for Ernst's Sun Session box on Elvis?

It appears to be this August!


Shawn1968 wrote:I'm having a tough time seeing 'at least a half dozen' acetates in that pic though. Elvis '56 mentions three acetates, which is a number I'm more inclined to believe based on the photos.

Elvis '56 is wonderful, essential viewing, but page 1 of this topic makes clear Elvis took four song demo acetates from Steve Sholes (RCA letter), to go along with a package of discs from Sun Records (Wertheimer photo) and copies of the three tracks from the RCA session on Monday, July 2nd (historical record).

The same YouTube segments from the classic 1987 documentary also tell us that Elvis chose take 28 of "Hound Dog" as the master and Barbara Hearn was "his high school sweetheart," both close to correct, but ultimately inaccurate.

I wish we knew more about these discs.

Re: Elvis --> July 3, 1956 Acetates Mystery !

Thu Jul 05, 2012 7:08 am

All these acetates are most likely in the Graceland Security Vault that sits behind left of the mansion on the grounds property.

Re: Elvis --> July 3, 1956 Acetates Mystery !

Thu Jul 05, 2012 10:17 am

Interesting topic.

Has the studio master acetates ever been displayed at Graceland? One could always ask from the Graceland archives have they got a compelete list of the acetates in their possession.

Didn't Joan Deary go to Graceland after Elvis's death to search for unreleased tapes and acetates? I think they told about this in A Golden Celebration box set. Apparently they took what they found to RCA studios and she listened through them. Most of the acetates were songwriters demos but they did found Elvis's homerecordings also which then were used in Legendary Performer IV album and on A Golden Celebration box set. All the other stuff was shipped back to Graceland. Wonder did she actually listened to all the acetates and compare them with the studio masters?
Last edited by Marko on Thu Jul 05, 2012 2:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Re: Elvis --> July 3, 1956 Acetates Mystery !

Thu Jul 05, 2012 11:23 am

Marko wrote:Wonder did she actually listened to all the acetates and compare them with the studio masters?

That is highly unlikely. Deary was not that kind of producer.