Re: Steve Binder --> Off The Colonel's List ! (1971)

Mon Sep 20, 2010 1:31 am

"In Person" sat earlier listening to this thinking would i love to see these performances,wonder if they were filmed and lost in some vault somewhere.

Re: Steve Binder --> Off The Colonel's List ! (1971)

Tue Jun 21, 2011 6:11 am

From all I have read and researched over the years, I feel that Binder quite rightly became bitter: precisely because he saw Elvis as a human being in trouble.

I think he came to feel it was all in vain.

The problem is that few people can even imagine why Elvis allowed himself to be so trapped and destoyed. The real reasons go back to the very beginning of his brief but chaotic life. There should be more quite serious "Tupelo" threads on this forum.
Elvis was raised to submit to power. And to Elvis and Vernon, Parker seemed like TRUE power. Like someone who had the power to destroy it all at his whim.

It was a delusion born of bitter experience: you don't {mess} with the "landowner." Or catastrophe could result. You just say "yessir" a lot and count your blessings.

Elvis wanted out of this cage but just couldn't do it. Parker knew it and never let go of this advantage until a judge confronted him. And revealed him for the low-life fraud he was. By then the whole little family from Tupelo was in the ground.

It is easy to assign blame while ignoring the social and historical context. I think Binder glimpsed something of this but not the full picture. Later he seemed to want to be done with it as he clearly saw what was coming. At least he never shut up.

Sorry to have entered late but this is so significant.

rjm

Re: Steve Binder --> Off The Colonel's List ! (1971)

Tue Jun 21, 2011 7:11 am

Really interesting article. Too bad Binder wasn't brought in to document the 69 return to live performances...seems like a no brainer looking back on it.

One wonders if Elvis would have ultimately gone through with the all-Christmas format without Binder...knowing it would ruin his career even more, but without anyone creative to turn to. Would he have been able to stand up for himself? History suggests no, but thankfully Binder was brought in and we don't have to find out.

Re: Steve Binder --> Off The Colonel's List ! (1971)

Tue Jun 21, 2011 9:07 am

bquick wrote:Really interesting article. Too bad Binder wasn't brought in to document the 69 return to live performances...seems like a no brainer looking back on it.

One wonders if Elvis would have ultimately gone through with the all-Christmas format without Binder...knowing it would ruin his career even more, but without anyone creative to turn to. Would he have been able to stand up for himself? History suggests no, but thankfully Binder was brought in and we don't have to find out.
Maybe if Binder got involved with the '69 return we would have incredible footage, maybe a documentary type thing like TTWII, but better if that's even possible.

Re: Steve Binder --> Off The Colonel's List ! (1971)

Wed Dec 26, 2012 10:54 pm

A christmas special could have a moderate success after all. But after that? If Elvis was going back to Nashville to record instead of Memphis, we couldn't have In the Ghetto, Suspicious Minds and many others. So without these hit singles, I wonder how confident was Elvis to return to perform, even in Las Vegas. Maybe, who knows the triumph would be the same, but to me it's hard to believe. More probably Elvis could have been considered a has been

Re: Steve Binder --> Off The Colonel's List ! (1971)

Wed Dec 26, 2012 11:26 pm

jurasic1968 wrote:A christmas special could have a moderate success after all. But after that? If Elvis was going back to Nashville to record instead of Memphis, we couldn't have In the Ghetto, Suspicious Minds and many others. So without these hit singles, I wonder how confident was Elvis to return to perform, even in Las Vegas. Maybe, who knows the triumph would be the same, but to me it's hard to believe. More probably Elvis could have been considered a has been


In the ghetto, Don't cry daddy and Kentucky rain all came from Elvis' publishing companies.

Re: Steve Binder --> Off The Colonel's List ! (1971)

Wed Dec 26, 2012 11:52 pm

OK, Brian, thanks for the information. But I wonder if RCA released them after a Christmas TV special would chart above Top 30. Just speculation, but I don't think so.

Re: Steve Binder --> Off The Colonel's List ! (1971)

Thu Dec 27, 2012 12:22 am

Interesting to note that when Billboard reviewed the new single in the November 23, 1968 issue, they did not feel it was top 20 material.
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Re: Steve Binder --> Off The Colonel's List ! (1971)

Thu Dec 27, 2012 2:11 am

HoneyTalkNelson wrote:Interesting to note that when Billboard reviewed the new single in the November 23, 1968 issue, they did not feel it was top 20 material.


Not a strong field of material there. I played 60s music on the radio for years, and I don't recall any of those titles, except If I Can Dream.

Re: Steve Binder --> Off The Colonel's List ! (1971)

Thu Dec 27, 2012 2:15 am

I had the Canned Heat and the Otis Redding singles, but I agree with your point.

All the more reason to wonder why IICD did not get a top 20 recommendation? I suspect even with a quality release, Elvis had been off the radar for too long by that point. I was surprised at how poorly both Guitar Man and Big Boss Man performed on the charts.

Re: Steve Binder --> Off The Colonel's List ! (1971)

Thu Dec 27, 2012 2:29 am

HoneyTalkNelson wrote:Interesting to note that when Billboard reviewed the new single in the November 23, 1968 issue, they did not feel it was top 20 material.

Also interesting to note that their Top 20 predictions were way off. None of the tracks made the Top 20. (Bobby Vee's track barely even made the Top 100, peaking at #98).

Re: Steve Binder --> Off The Colonel's List ! (1971)

Thu Dec 27, 2012 2:32 am

That's a good point!

I'd like to hear the Vee single but it's not posted on YouTube.

Is the Beach Boys track any good?

Re: Steve Binder --> Off The Colonel's List ! (1971)

Thu Dec 27, 2012 2:34 am

Here's a live version:

phpBB [video]

Re: Steve Binder --> Off The Colonel's List ! (1971)

Thu Dec 27, 2012 3:03 am

The likelihood is that the magic of the 68 comeback would never have been repeated, even if Binder and Elvis worked together again. Elvis worked at his best with new challenges facing him, and connecting with Binder once again would probably have made him feel as if he were in safe hands, and the passion and energy of their previous outing would more than likely have diminished with each successive collaboration. What's more, Binder's own post-NBC Special career was hardly innovative or stellar. He is now remembered for two shows - the Elvis special and the Star Wars Holiday Special, with the latter being something he would probably rather forget. There is, in fact, a certain irony that Binder was soon to direct and/or produce exactly the kind of safe TV that the Colonel had envisaged for the 68 comeback, such as TV specials for Barry Manilow, Olivia Newton John and Diana Ross, along with TV Ice show "spectaculars". As much as it would be interesting to surmise as to the kind of work Binder and Elvis would have done together over the years, the likelihood (going by the trajectory that both men's work took in the 1970s) is that it would have been sadly unremarkable, and that the 68 special was, like so much in Elvis's career, a wonderful coming together of vision, energy and circumstance that would never happen again.

Re: Steve Binder --> Off The Colonel's List ! (1971)

Thu Dec 27, 2012 11:04 am

Mister Mike wrote:
HoneyTalkNelson wrote:Interesting to note that when Billboard reviewed the new single in the November 23, 1968 issue, they did not feel it was top 20 material.

Also interesting to note that their Top 20 predictions were way off. None of the tracks made the Top 20. (Bobby Vee's track barely even made the Top 100, peaking at #98).


Which proves that looking back we are all perfect managers but even professional people can not predict a hit or miss.

Re: Steve Binder --> Off The Colonel's List ! (1971)

Thu Dec 27, 2012 11:33 am

I wonder if RCA put all of its promotion muscle behind this new, very different record? Are there full-page ads? A kind of "announcement" that this was something altogether different? Sure, if you heard a preview, you might be surprised, but it was coming after a ton of stuff that wasn't even "disappointing" anymore. Yes, the the "Big Boss Man," "Guitar Man" and "U.S. Male" singes were good - maybe not necessarily great, but very, very good. But they came with the recent baggage and did not do very well. So, there were diminished expectations all around. I wonder if RCA also didn't really expect much. That his fans would buy, and maybe a few others, but they didn't expect much because those country-rock singles didn't do as well as they might have. So, maybe they didn't want to throw good money after bad. And maybe they thought the TV Special would offer quite enough promotion.

Now, with the Special, a lot of promotion came on TV, with Singer, and they were selling that budget album in their stores, with cross-promotion. But I think maybe the single wasn't given a chance, and so wasn't promoted properly all around. (Also, keep in mind, there were few "music video" outlets in those days: only certain television events would allow short clips to promote a single. On those occasions, the short-form clips seemed to work well. With this, you had to watch the whole show.)

rjm

Re: Steve Binder --> Off The Colonel's List ! (1971)

Thu Dec 27, 2012 11:41 am

poormadpeter wrote:The likelihood is that the magic of the 68 comeback would never have been repeated, even if Binder and Elvis worked together again. Elvis worked at his best with new challenges facing him, and connecting with Binder once again would probably have made him feel as if he were in safe hands, and the passion and energy of their previous outing would more than likely have diminished with each successive collaboration. What's more, Binder's own post-NBC Special career was hardly innovative or stellar. He is now remembered for two shows - the Elvis special and the Star Wars Holiday Special, with the latter being something he would probably rather forget. There is, in fact, a certain irony that Binder was soon to direct and/or produce exactly the kind of safe TV that the Colonel had envisaged for the 68 comeback, such as TV specials for Barry Manilow, Olivia Newton John and Diana Ross, along with TV Ice show "spectaculars". As much as it would be interesting to surmise as to the kind of work Binder and Elvis would have done together over the years, the likelihood (going by the trajectory that both men's work took in the 1970s) is that it would have been sadly unremarkable, and that the 68 special was, like so much in Elvis's career, a wonderful coming together of vision, energy and circumstance that would never happen again.


I agree with this...They tried to repeat the success of the American Sound sessions from January / February, 1969 in July, 1973, pretty much using most of the original musicians Elvis used at American (Wood, Young, Cogbill, Emmons) and even some of the backup vocalists (Greene, G. Holladay, M. Holladay) that were overdubbed later at American. They even got Spreen to do the arrangements on three of the songs that were completed in July along with "Sweet Angeline," which wasn't completed until September. Probably the only ones that weren't there in July, 1973 that were there in January / February, 1969 were bassist Mike Leech, drummer Gene Chrisman and probably the most important piece, Chips Moman. Leech, though, was brought back to oversee the overdubs of the material done at the December, 1973 Stax sessions. I've often wondered why Felton never adopted Chips' production methods, in that he worked on getting the rhythm section perfect and then had Elvis redo his vocals, until they were perfect. Fast-forward to March, 1975, and Elvis completes ten tracks for the "Today" album and not a single track takes more than six takes to complete.

Daryl

Re: Steve Binder --> Off The Colonel's List ! (1971)

Thu Dec 27, 2012 11:51 am

rjm wrote:I wonder if RCA put all of its promotion muscle behind this new, very different record? Are there full-page ads? A kind of "announcement" that this was something altogether different? Sure, if you heard a preview, you might be surprised, but it was coming after a ton of stuff that wasn't even "disappointing" anymore. Yes, the the "Big Boss Man," "Guitar Man" and "U.S. Male" singes were good - maybe not necessarily great, but very, very good. But they came with the recent baggage and did not do very well. So, there were diminished expectations all around. I wonder if RCA also didn't really expect much. That his fans would buy, and maybe a few others, but they didn't expect much because those country-rock singles didn't do as well as they might have. So, maybe they didn't want to throw good money after bad. And maybe they thought the TV Special would offer quite enough promotion.

Now, with the Special, a lot of promotion came on TV, with Singer, and they were selling that budget album in their stores, with cross-promotion. But I think maybe the single wasn't given a chance, and so wasn't promoted properly all around. (Also, keep in mind, there were few "music video" outlets in those days: only certain television events would allow short clips to promote a single. On those occasions, the short-form clips seemed to work well. With this, you had to watch the whole show.)

rjm


They promoted with the usual full page ad on page 2 of Billboard.
Last edited by HoneyTalkNelson on Fri Dec 28, 2012 6:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

Re: Steve Binder --> Off The Colonel's List ! (1971)

Thu Dec 27, 2012 11:58 am

I like how this special birthday release is from Elvis and the Colonel!
Last edited by HoneyTalkNelson on Fri Dec 28, 2012 6:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

Re: Steve Binder --> Off The Colonel's List ! (1971)

Thu Dec 27, 2012 12:08 pm

Here are some ads from 1969.
Last edited by HoneyTalkNelson on Fri Dec 28, 2012 6:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

Re: Steve Binder --> Off The Colonel's List ! (1971)

Thu Dec 27, 2012 10:37 pm

Daryl wrote:
poormadpeter wrote:The likelihood is that the magic of the 68 comeback would never have been repeated, even if Binder and Elvis worked together again. Elvis worked at his best with new challenges facing him, and connecting with Binder once again would probably have made him feel as if he were in safe hands, and the passion and energy of their previous outing would more than likely have diminished with each successive collaboration. What's more, Binder's own post-NBC Special career was hardly innovative or stellar. He is now remembered for two shows - the Elvis special and the Star Wars Holiday Special, with the latter being something he would probably rather forget. There is, in fact, a certain irony that Binder was soon to direct and/or produce exactly the kind of safe TV that the Colonel had envisaged for the 68 comeback, such as TV specials for Barry Manilow, Olivia Newton John and Diana Ross, along with TV Ice show "spectaculars". As much as it would be interesting to surmise as to the kind of work Binder and Elvis would have done together over the years, the likelihood (going by the trajectory that both men's work took in the 1970s) is that it would have been sadly unremarkable, and that the 68 special was, like so much in Elvis's career, a wonderful coming together of vision, energy and circumstance that would never happen again.


I agree with this...They tried to repeat the success of the American Sound sessions from January / February, 1969 in July, 1973, pretty much using most of the original musicians Elvis used at American (Wood, Young, Cogbill, Emmons) and even some of the backup vocalists (Greene, G. Holladay, M. Holladay) that were overdubbed later at American. They even got Spreen to do the arrangements on three of the songs that were completed in July along with "Sweet Angeline," which wasn't completed until September. Probably the only ones that weren't there in July, 1973 that were there in January / February, 1969 were bassist Mike Leech, drummer Gene Chrisman and probably the most important piece, Chips Moman. Leech, though, was brought back to oversee the overdubs of the material done at the December, 1973 Stax sessions. I've often wondered why Felton never adopted Chips' production methods, in that he worked on getting the rhythm section perfect and then had Elvis redo his vocals, until they were perfect. Fast-forward to March, 1975, and Elvis completes ten tracks for the "Today" album and not a single track takes more than six takes to complete.

Daryl


That's a different thing Daryl.

The reason the first STAX session wasn't as big a success as the 1969 Memphis sessions was largely due to the material.

Felton Jarvis was his own man that had his own way of doing things and Elvis had stopped doing a lot of takes by then.

Re: Steve Binder --> Off The Colonel's List ! (1971)

Thu Dec 27, 2012 10:59 pm

HoneyTalkNelson wrote:I like how this special birthday release is from Elvis and the Colonel!


The Guitar Man single being advertised as on the Clambake album probably did it few favours!

Re: Steve Binder --> Off The Colonel's List ! (1971)

Sat May 04, 2013 12:20 am

midnightx wrote:Individuals like Steve Binder and Chips Moman who defied Tom Parker and were able to influence Elvis to do the same -- all in the name of producing quality work -- were clearly blacklisted from having access to him in the future.

I've always felt the same along these lines. The reason people like steve couldn't get to him is because management were scared of losing Elvis to people like Steve...because these sort of people were the people Elvis craved for, and mangement knew it. The Colonel lost is battle for a christmas special and they also lost there battle with moman. And look what happened to those two projects - they turned out to be the most successful things Elvis had done in years. All this should have told his management "this is what works, this is what success is about" but didn't seem to care. If they weren't getting their way they didn't want to know.

Re: Steve Binder --> Off The Colonel's List ! (1971)

Wed May 08, 2013 2:56 am

mysterytrainrideson wrote:
midnightx wrote:Individuals like Steve Binder and Chips Moman who defied Tom Parker and were able to influence Elvis to do the same -- all in the name of producing quality work -- were clearly blacklisted from having access to him in the future.

I've always felt the same along these lines. The reason people like steve couldn't get to him is because management were scared of losing Elvis to people like Steve...because these sort of people were the people Elvis craved for, and mangement knew it. The Colonel lost is battle for a christmas special and they also lost there battle with moman. And look what happened to those two projects - they turned out to be the most successful things Elvis had done in years. All this should have told his management "this is what works, this is what success is about" but didn't seem to care. If they weren't getting their way they didn't want to know.



I agree.The Moman sessions were a huge success and it should have been obvious to everyone this was the way forward-get Elvis in with a strong producer with vision and know how to get the best out of Elvis be it Chips or someone else with the same type of character but of course Chips won the battle with the publishing on Suspicious Minds and the Colonel don't like losing money whether is earned or not so stick with the puppets.The Colonel was running scared that people like Steve Binder and Chips might convince him that a manger gets a slice of the pie and not the lions share.

norrie

Re: Steve Binder --> Off The Colonel's List ! (1971)

Thu May 09, 2013 10:24 am

HoneyTalkNelson wrote:Interesting to note that when Billboard reviewed the new single in the November 23, 1968 issue, they did not feel it was top 20 material.

Billboard Nov 23 1968 p83.JPG


It's also interesting to see the "exceptional" producer credit in the review rightfully going to Bones Howe and Steve Binder. Management would withhold the credit on the soundtrack LP, a major professional and financial loss for both. Is it any surprise they never worked with Parker again?

In the same issue, RCA placed a full-page ad for the single:



Billboard Nov 23 1968 p02.JPG
Billboard - November 23, 1968
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