Re: "Butterfly" --> 1957 Live Mystery Song ... Solved ?

Fri Jun 11, 2010 2:32 am

drjohncarpenter wrote:
hollandgroupc2008 wrote:Very interesting. Thanks. Now only to find a live version! If I had to choose tho, I'd still rather hear Only You. That's like a holy grail for me. Hasn't it been confirmed that one exists?

IIRC, the answer to that is yes.


Swingin-Little-Guitar-Man wrote:Nice research Doctor. Thank ya!

Bodie wrote:I enjoyed reading that and appreciated the Doc posting this, even if some didnt.

Thanks.

Juan Luis wrote:+1.

Frankie Teardrop wrote:+ 2.

bajo wrote:Keep'em coming Doc! I sure like stuff like this! Names like Buddy Knox, Ray Smith, a.o. ring bells since I ruined my brothers record collections by those artists! I actually played them to death! (Ray Smith sure was something special)

acmeruya wrote:Interesting post, Doc. Thanks.

Phil

Thank you all for the very kind words.

These topics are created by me to be savored ... and discussed!


KiwiAlan wrote:I would say it's beyond doubt that there was an intention for Elvis Presley to record Butterfly. There can be no other explanation for Aberbach to acquire publishing for Elvis Presley Music.

I would also suggest that the recording date was likely to at the Hound Dog sessions. Reasoning being that this recording session was to provide singles and unusually only three sides were put down due to the time spent on Hoound Dog.

You are mistaken on both counts.

Charlie Gracie cut "Butterfly" on Dec 30, 1956 at Reco-Art Sound Recording Studios in Philadelphia, under the specific production of Bernie Lowe.

Note that "Butterfly" was written by Lowe, with Kal Mann, and they would score another 1957 #1 with Elvis, and "Teddy Bear."

How can you be so sure that "Butterfly" was not pitched to Elvis or suggested to Elvis in some form or another?
As I have noted, it sounds like the perfect ELvis Presley song. This fact no doubt was noticed by others back in 1957.
If Elvis would have recorded it, it would be at the Jan./Feb. 1957 sessions.

Re: "Butterfly" --> 1957 Live Mystery Song ... Solved ?

Fri Jun 11, 2010 3:00 am

ekenee wrote: How can you be so sure that "Butterfly" was not pitched to Elvis or suggested to Elvis in some form or another?

Revisit the previous comments.

My response is specific to citing the fact the song could not have been designated for the July 2, 1956 RCA sessions. It may not have even been written yet.

Thanks.

Re: "Butterfly" --> 1957 Live Mystery Song ... Solved ?

Fri Jun 11, 2010 3:12 am

drjohncarpenter wrote:
ekenee wrote: How can you be so sure that "Butterfly" was not pitched to Elvis or suggested to Elvis in some form or another?

Revisit the previous comments.

My response is specific to citing the fact the song could not have been designated for the July 2, 1956 RCA sessions. It may not have even been written yet.

Thanks.



As no one knows when the song was written it could well have been done before July 1956.

The fact that the Grace version was produced December 1956 is no indication of writing date

It's logical that the authors gave up on Elvis recording it after six months and got Grace involved.

Re: "Butterfly" --> 1957 Live Mystery Song ... Solved ?

Fri Jun 11, 2010 7:52 am

drjohncarpenter wrote:
ekenee wrote: How can you be so sure that "Butterfly" was not pitched to Elvis or suggested to Elvis in some form or another?

Revisit the previous comments.

My response is specific to citing the fact the song could not have been designated for the July 2, 1956 RCA sessions. It may not have even been written yet.

Thanks.


Reread my comments. I gave no date of July 1956.
My guess would have been Jan. or Feb. 1957 as a more plausible recording date.
But, I don't think Elvis ever cut it in the studio anyway.

Re: "Butterfly" --> 1957 Live Mystery Song ... Solved ?

Fri Jun 11, 2010 8:08 am

KiwiAlan wrote:
drjohncarpenter wrote:
ekenee wrote: How can you be so sure that "Butterfly" was not pitched to Elvis or suggested to Elvis in some form or another?

Revisit the previous comments.

My response is specific to citing the fact the song could not have been designated for the July 2, 1956 RCA sessions. It may not have even been written yet.

Thanks.



As no one knows when the song was written it could well have been done before July 1956.

The fact that the Grace version was produced December 1956 is no indication of writing date

It's logical that the authors gave up on Elvis recording it after six months and got Grace involved.


The writers have said that they loosely based in on "Don't Be Cruel" now couldn't that at least suggest a time that it could have been written?

Re: "Butterfly" --> 1957 Live Mystery Song ... Solved ?

Fri Jun 11, 2010 9:23 am

Deke Rivers II wrote:Very interesting Doc...let's hope someone answers the call!

Rock Legend wrote:Excellent post, thank you!

YDKM wrote:8) yup again excellent post and references!~ :D

mrbthebarber wrote:Well I can sadly add no more regards Elvis performing the great Charlie Gracie's hit ( which also reached no. 12 here in the UK ) but I can add this clip I filmed of Charlie singing "Butterfly" just two months ago! Still performing BRILLIANTLY & a true gent. George Harrison loved him, Paul McCartney recorded one of his tracks ( "Fabulous" I think ) etc etc. Still in great demand at Rock n Roll festivals all over the world & still cutting it!!

phpBB [video]



Enjoy.

Thanks, fellows.

mrbthebarber, that's a wonderful clip!


Deke Rivers II wrote:The writers have said that they loosely based in on "Don't Be Cruel" now couldn't that at least suggest a time that it could have been written?

Yes, that would suggest it was written well after July 1956.

Re: "Butterfly" --> 1957 Live Mystery Song ... Solved ?

Fri Jun 11, 2010 9:26 am

The question yet to be answered is.....why was Elvis Presley Music listed as part publisher

Re: "Butterfly" --> 1957 Live Mystery Song ... Solved ?

Sat Jun 12, 2010 7:06 pm

The twists and turns of music publishing can be very confusing, and the ownership of "Butterfly" beats most!
As Doc's clippings show, the music trade papers at least believed that Elvis Presley Music had a share in the publishing of the song, but according to the label of the original release on Cameo by Charlie Gracie, only Mayland Music (BMI) is listed.

This 45 was recorded, as DJC said, in December 1956, but was not issued for a couple of months and there may have been some frantic dealing going on behind the scenes which caused the delay of what obviously would be a hot property.

Although written by Cameo's owners, Bernie Lowe and Kal Mann, when the first release was issued, the writer credit was given to "Anthony September" (the pseudonym registered to the producer of Bandstand, Tony Mammarella). In more recent years, the credit has been reclaimed and the song is now an ASCAP property, registered to Mann and Lowe once more, through their own companies; Kalmann Music and Lowe Music.

To make things more confusing, early cover versions such as Bob Carroll (Bally) and Andy WIlliams (Cadence) also list Elvis Presley Music as a co-publisher with Mayland, so I wonder whether there was a near deal with Hill & Range around December 1956/January 1957 which perhaps went sour when H&R asked for a 100% share which Mayland Music (i.e. Lowe and Mann) turned down before signing the song over to "Anthony September" in order to maximise the promotion of Charlie Gracie's Cameo debut.

Complete supposition, of course...

Re: "Butterfly" --> 1957 Live Mystery Song ... Solved ?

Sat Jun 12, 2010 11:40 pm

davepenny wrote:The twists and turns of music publishing can be very confusing, and the ownership of "Butterfly" beats most!
As Doc's clippings show, the music trade papers at least believed that Elvis Presley Music had a share in the publishing of the song, but according to the label of the original release on Cameo by Charlie Gracie, only Mayland Music (BMI) is listed.

This 45 was recorded, as DJC said, in December 1956, but was not issued for a couple of months and there may have been some frantic dealing going on behind the scenes which caused the delay of what obviously would be a hot property.

Although written by Cameo's owners, Bernie Lowe and Kal Mann, when the first release was issued, the writer credit was given to "Anthony September" (the pseudonym registered to the producer of Bandstand, Tony Mammarella). In more recent years, the credit has been reclaimed and the song is now an ASCAP property, registered to Mann and Lowe once more, through their own companies; Kalmann Music and Lowe Music.

To make things more confusing, early cover versions such as Bob Carroll (Bally) and Andy WIlliams (Cadence) also list Elvis Presley Music as a co-publisher with Mayland, so I wonder whether there was a near deal with Hill & Range around December 1956/January 1957 which perhaps went sour when H&R asked for a 100% share which Mayland Music (i.e. Lowe and Mann) turned down before signing the song over to "Anthony September" in order to maximise the promotion of Charlie Gracie's Cameo debut.

Complete supposition, of course...

It's more than that -- it's an informed and intelligent post.

Thanks, Dave. I noticed yesterday the "Anthony September" credit on the April Billboard charts I posted, and was trying to solve that anomaly.

In my research on this topic, what pushed the idea of Elvis doing "Butterfly" at one or more April 1957 shows was my uncovering its a) songwriter credit, b) publishing, and enormous popularity. These were somehow overlooked, but not any more!

Oh, for a tape of these shows!

Re: "Butterfly" --> 1957 Live Mystery Song ... Solved ?

Sun Jun 13, 2010 1:13 am

A very enjoyable post, doc.

Cheers.

Re: "Butterfly" --> 1957 Live Mystery Song ... Solved ?

Sun Jun 13, 2010 3:12 am

londonflash wrote:A very enjoyable post, doc.

Cheers.

Joy is my middle name! Glad you liked it.

Re: "Butterfly" --> 1957 Live Mystery Song ... Solved ?

Sun Jun 20, 2010 10:52 am

Interestingly, there's a possibility that a Toronto recording may be out there. If so, we'll soon have this mystery solved.

Re: "Butterfly" --> 1957 Live Mystery Song ... Solved ?

Tue Jun 22, 2010 7:02 am

drjohncarpenter wrote:Interestingly, there's a possibility that a Toronto recording may be out there. If so, we'll soon have this mystery solved.


This is even better news!

Re: "Butterfly" --> 1957 Live Mystery Song ... Solved ?

Tue Jun 22, 2010 7:12 am

You ain't just a-woofin'!

Re: "Butterfly" --> 1957 Live Mystery Song ... Solved ?

Tue Jun 22, 2010 11:50 pm

Interesting topic - on a related note regarding the Toronto concert's here are two items that may be of interest.

Image
looks to be from the evening concert and could this be a still from film footage?
http://archives.cbc.ca/arts_entertainme ... clips/495/


Image

Image
From the book The History of Maple Leaf Gardens By Lance Hornby

Davide

Re: "Butterfly" --> 1957 Live Mystery Song ... Solved ?

Thu May 26, 2011 10:30 pm

Belated thanks, David!

Fans first heard the audio to those frenetic April 1957 Toronto news reports on this wonderful CD:


Image

When All Was Kool (Mystery Train CD 2001, 1991)
http://www.elvis-collectors.com/when_all_was_kool.html

Maybe someday soon we'll hear a recording of the show with "Butterfly" and a pre-release version of "One Night."

Re: "Butterfly" --> 1957 Live Mystery Song ... Solved ?

Fri May 27, 2011 1:07 am

What on earth are doing dragging up your post of a year ago?

Want to wallow in those
'thank you, doc"

posts over again and over again

Re: "Butterfly" --> 1957 Live Mystery Song ... Solved ?

Fri May 27, 2011 1:09 am

KiwiAlan wrote:What on earth are doing dragging up your post of a year ago?

There is a post today that touches upon the same era, go read it. I rediscovered this superb topic in passing.

You don't like it? Create a topic of your own.

Problem solved!

Re: "Butterfly" --> 1957 Live Mystery Song ... Solved ?

Fri May 27, 2011 2:53 am

GEE, thanks Doc

Re: "Butterfly" --> 1957 Live Mystery Song ... Solved ?

Fri May 27, 2011 2:31 pm

KiwiAlan wrote:What on earth are doing dragging up your post of a year ago?

Want to wallow in those
'thank you, doc"

posts over again and over again


Because posts like these are far and away the best on this board. They offer substantial research and are informative. Posts like this regarding the possibility of 'lost' songs surely are the one most vital to the world of an artist who is dead and his record company has seemingly released every song there is to hear practically. It's one of the main reasons we are all still fans, hoping to hear another elusive Elvis song we've never heard before.

Re: "Butterfly" --> 1957 Live Mystery Song ... Solved ?

Fri May 27, 2011 8:52 pm

Good Time Charlie wrote:
KiwiAlan wrote:What on earth are doing dragging up your post of a year ago?

Want to wallow in those
'thank you, doc"

posts over again and over again


Because posts like these are far and away the best on this board. They offer substantial research and are informative. Posts like this regarding the possibility of 'lost' songs surely are the one most vital to the world of an artist who is dead and his record company has seemingly released every song there is to hear practically. It's one of the main reasons we are all still fans, hoping to hear another elusive Elvis song we've never heard before.

Thank you. You underscore one of my main motivations.

Another: my secret wish is those with tapes of shows from this era will embrace my enthusiasm, and the mostly-positive feedback from respondents, and unleash the magic for all to hear.

Re: "Butterfly" --> 1957 Live Mystery Song ... Solved ?

Fri May 27, 2011 10:09 pm

Back to Elvis Presley Music's ownership of the song, perhaps Freddy Beinstock made a deal with the songwriters for publishing in preparation for the January 1957 sesions and/or the Loving You soundtrack. Remember, Freddy tried slipping in Hill & Range's copyrighted version of "Peter Cottontail" into the Loving You sessions and Elvis angrily dismissed it.

Re: "Butterfly" --> 1957 Live Mystery Song ... Solved ?

Sat May 28, 2011 1:56 am

Mike C wrote:Back to Elvis Presley Music's ownership of the song, perhaps Freddy Beinstock made a deal with the songwriters for publishing in preparation for the January 1957 sesions and/or the Loving You soundtrack. Remember, Freddy tried slipping in Hill & Range's copyrighted version of "Peter Cottontail" into the Loving You sessions and Elvis angrily dismissed it.


Very, very likely

Re: "Butterfly" --> 1957 Live Mystery Song ... Solved ?

Sat May 28, 2011 2:12 am

Mike C wrote:Back to Elvis Presley Music's ownership of the song, perhaps Freddy Beinstock made a deal with the songwriters for publishing in preparation for the January 1957 sesions and/or the Loving You soundtrack. Remember, Freddy tried slipping in Hill & Range's copyrighted version of "Peter Cottontail" into the Loving You sessions and Elvis angrily dismissed it.

If Elvis' publishing landed a piece of "Butterfly," Freddy Bienstock might have been involved. Or it could have been handled by Jean or Julian Aberbach, who built Hill and Range Songs.

However, whatever deal was made, it did not supersede Charlie Gracie or Andy Williams' recordings, pressed in January 1957. This fact alone is probably why "Butterfly" was not on the music stand at Paramount's Scoring Stage on January 15.

What probably grabbed Presley's attention during his March-April your was the fact that "Butterfly" was a huge hit, all over the radio.

Re: "Butterfly" --> 1957 Live Mystery Song ... Solved ?

Sat May 28, 2011 5:15 am

drjohncarpenter wrote:
Good Time Charlie wrote:
KiwiAlan wrote:What on earth are doing dragging up your post of a year ago?

Want to wallow in those
'thank you, doc"

posts over again and over again


Because posts like these are far and away the best on this board. They offer substantial research and are informative. Posts like this regarding the possibility of 'lost' songs surely are the one most vital to the world of an artist who is dead and his record company has seemingly released every song there is to hear practically. It's one of the main reasons we are all still fans, hoping to hear another elusive Elvis song we've never heard before.

Thank you. You underscore one of my main motivations.

Another: my secret wish is those with tapes of shows from this era will embrace my enthusiasm, and the mostly-positive feedback from respondents, and unleash the magic for all to hear.

My wish too Doc.......it would be great for those that have to share with us that have not......;-)......the very fact that Elvis performed "Butterfly" was something totally new to me until you started this thread many moons ago and I have been hoping every since that these tapes would surface!