Re: Albert Goldman --> The Evil That Men Do

Fri Apr 19, 2013 12:12 am

elvisjock wrote:John, he shares your affection for the word, "Balderdash!"

So, you've got that going for you.

Goldman's torrents of hate were cascading as early as 1968.


That is correct.

And anyone who carefully reviews the entire Greil Marcus piece -- and it is HIGHLY recommended -- may easily surmise that while Goldman may have been a gifted writer, he was a terrible, failed biographer. No one seeking to create a credible work would allow so many errors of fact, unattributed or incorrectly-transcribed quotes, and misrepresentation of long-established events.

Goldman's biographical subjects were always deceased (Lenny Bruce, Elvis Presley, John Lennon), to avoid potential lawsuits. And it seems very odd, yet very telling, that he wrote with hatred and vitriol about all of them. Why would anyone devote years of their lives to write biographies of people they hated?

I'm not at all sad he is no longer among the living, and cannot understand why anyone would in any way align themselves with his memory.

Re: Albert Goldman --> The Evil That Men Do

Fri Apr 19, 2013 12:15 am

moffringa wrote:I did buy the book then, still have it and most of what is written was true ...


Actually, that is false. Please take the time to read the Marcus article. Thank you.

Re: Albert Goldman --> The Evil That Men Do

Fri Apr 19, 2013 2:40 am

Thanks Doc. An inspired skit, IMO.

Re: Albert Goldman --> The Evil That Men Do

Fri Apr 19, 2013 5:20 am

stevelecher wrote:Thanks Doc. An inspired skit, IMO.


Inspired and hilarious!

Also, thanks to rjm for posting the page link while I was off searching for the mp4 file.

Re: Albert Goldman --> The Evil That Men Do

Fri Apr 19, 2013 5:37 am

moffringa wrote:I am always surprised how fast socalled fans have the tendency to come up with arguments and
pieces of counter proof to attack in this case Albert Goldman's book. Like every writer,journalist
is on purpose trying to give certain artists a bad name.

moffringa wrote:Regarding his book on Elvis it is clear that noone likes it when his idol is attacked this way,yet
we all know that the story he published was based on first hand stories from former bodyguards
who have known Elvis since he started mid-50's So instead of blaming Albert Goldman,i would
blame Elvis his former bodyguards.

There is that old saying: " Don't shoot the Messenger "

I did buy the book then, still have it and most of what is written was true,despite that it hurts
to find out that your idol was far from perfect.


If this isn't a troll thing you're into, then you are quite misinformed, even about the most basic facts of Elvis' life, and with what Goldman presents. He seemingly couldn't even read a map of Tupelo! He put Shake Rag on the other side of town! Which means he never set foot in Tupelo, spoke to anyone there, or even did a little geographical and historical research.

Or Goldman, numerous times during the book, just made stuff up - in the full knowledge he was lying. I can't say that about his errors of history and factual information, because he's dead, and I don't know. But clearly, as with his disfiguration of the famous Sam Phillips quotation, he DID make some of it up, knowing it was not what was in the Hopkins interview.

It is not a "true" book, nor is it either well-written, or well-researched. Fike's revelations are really the least of it: Marcus deals with the much more serious matters of class and racial bigotry on parade in the book. The information on the Col. was handy, but more recently, accounts of the Col.'s past have been found in pre-Goldman accounts. There really is nothing in there of any value at this point, except as an historical artifact of its own. It is also a lesson in how to write a really bad biography. And that might be useful to students learning about the art.

As to Goldman's death - much less his life, "there is absolutely no poignancy" in his own story. None.

rjm (Thank you Doc. I almost put up a joke about it - just for laughs. Anyway, they actually had a special piece of code for forums, which is that large "still" that is clickable. {Not the regular still. The other one was the code they offered for forums.} It was the best that could be done, because there's no other way to get non-YouTube videos posted inside the forum software.)
Last edited by rjm on Fri Apr 19, 2013 5:48 am, edited 2 times in total.

Re: Albert Goldman --> The Evil That Men Do

Fri Apr 19, 2013 5:43 am

rjm wrote:
moffringa wrote:I am always surprised how fast socalled fans have the tendency to come up with arguments and
pieces of counter proof to attack in this case Albert Goldman's book. Like every writer,journalist
is on purpose trying to give certain artists a bad name.

moffringa wrote:Regarding his book on Elvis it is clear that noone likes it when his idol is attacked this way,yet
we all know that the story he published was based on first hand stories from former bodyguards
who have known Elvis since he started mid-50's So instead of blaming Albert Goldman,i would
blame Elvis his former bodyguards.

There is that old saying: " Don't shoot the Messenger "

I did buy the book then, still have it and most of what is written was true,despite that it hurts
to find out that your idol was far from perfect.


If this isn't a troll thing you're into, then you are quite misinformed, even about the most basic facts of Elvis' life, and with what Goldman presents. He seemingly couldn't even read a map of Tupelo! He put Shake Rag on the other side of town! Which means he never set foot in Tupelo, spoke to anyone there, or even did a little geographical and historical research.

Or Goldman, numerous times during the book, just made stuff up - in the full knowledge he was lying. I can't say that about his errors of history and factual information, because he's dead, and I don't know. But clearly, as with his disfiguration of the famous Sam Phillips quotation, he DID make that up, knowing it was not what was in the Hopkins interview.

It is not a "true" book, nor is it either well-written, or well-researched. Fike's revelations are really the least of it: Marcus deals with the much more serious matters of class and racial bigotry on parade in the book. The information on the Col. was handy, but more recently, accounts of the Col.'s past have been found in pre-Goldman accounts. There really is nothing in there of any value at this point, except as an historical artifact of its own. It is also a lesson in how to write a really bad biography. And that might be useful to students learning about the art.

As to Goldman's death - much less his life, "there is absolutely no poignancy" in his own story. None.

rjm (Thank you Doc. I almost put up a joke about it - just for laughs.)


Don't feed the troll... it'll just keep coming back...

Re: Albert Goldman --> The Evil That Men Do

Fri Apr 19, 2013 6:06 am

Apologies to all but I love the Goldman bio. Yes he is a pos as a human being. But he also ripped apart the Elvis myth as a shy, country boy even more than What Happened. As much as I love Elvis' music, Elvis lied to me everyday I was a fan. He generally lived an addicted depraved life that was 180 degrees opposite his image. He skillfully and manipulatively exploited his fans in that regard and for more than a few years.Now I also recognize that his addictions were just that- the weaknesses in man. Elvis destroyed his legacy not Albert Goldman. Goldman was not bloated, drug addled and recording bombastic ballads and maudlin divorce weepers. The only good that ever came from Elvis' decline and Goldman's over the top recounting was at a young age I realized the press were co-conspirators who couldn't be trusted either. For they covered up the lie that Goldman exposed. Doesn't mean Goldman wasn't hateful and filled with prejudice but that doesn't mean he didn't round out the story. Just sayin'

Re: Albert Goldman --> The Evil That Men Do

Fri Apr 19, 2013 6:25 am

I feel quite differently fn2drive. Elvis was, overall, a decent person who lacked self control, especially after the death of his mom. He kept his demons to himself and tried to please his fans. He admitted whenever asked that he couldn't live up to his image. He didn't short change me though he did short change himself.

Re: Albert Goldman --> The Evil That Men Do

Fri Apr 19, 2013 7:49 am

fn2drive wrote:Apologies to all but I love the Goldman bio. Yes he is a pos as a human being. But he also ripped apart the Elvis myth as a shy, country boy even more than What Happened. As much as I love Elvis' music, Elvis lied to me everyday I was a fan. He generally lived an addicted depraved life that was 180 degrees opposite his image. He skillfully and manipulatively exploited his fans in that regard and for more than a few years.Now I also recognize that his addictions were just that- the weaknesses in man. Elvis destroyed his legacy not Albert Goldman. Goldman was not bloated, drug addled and recording bombastic ballads and maudlin divorce weepers. The only good that ever came from Elvis' decline and Goldman's over the top recounting was at a young age I realized the press were co-conspirators who couldn't be trusted either. For they covered up the lie that Goldman exposed. Doesn't mean Goldman wasn't hateful and filled with prejudice but that doesn't mean he didn't round out the story. Just sayin'

As the majority of his book is fiction, it does very little to discredit Elvis and/or his image. It's truly sad that there are still people like you who accept this mean-spirited, perverted trash as fact...

Re: Albert Goldman --> The Evil That Men Do

Fri Apr 19, 2013 8:55 am

I read the book when it came (I was 14) and I read it again about ten years later. It was apparent that Goldman did not like Elvis or the rock┬┤n roll culture. He had a very mean approach towards Elvis┬┤background and wanted to give the reader impression that Elvis was a stupid, disturbed and mean person. I actually think he hated Elvis.

Re: Albert Goldman --> The Evil That Men Do

Fri Apr 19, 2013 9:07 am

Clearly, some are posting illogical declarations in an attempt to stir up negative emotion.

Please do not be afraid to read the Marcus article.

It is engaging, enlightening and edifying. It is a bridge to the respectability regained in the 1990s, through the efforts of people like Peter Guralnick (biographer) and Ernst Jorgensen (RCA producer).

Re: Albert Goldman --> The Evil That Men Do

Fri Apr 19, 2013 9:24 am

If you wish to read the Goldman book, please read these books first, although all but one came out after his book.

1971: Jerry Hopkins, Elvis: A Biography : http://www.amazon.com/Elvis-Biography-Jerry-Hopkins/dp/0446689386/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1366351532&sr=8-3&keywords=Jerry+Hopkins+Elvis
Hopkins.jpg


1985: Elaine Dundy, Elvis and Gladys: http://www.amazon.com/Elvis-Gladys-Elaine-Dundy/dp/0025539108/ref=tmm_hrd_title_0?ie=UTF8&qid=1366351785&sr=1-1
ElvisandGlady.jpg


1994: Peter Guralnick, Last Train To Memphis, The Rise of Elvis Presley: http://www.amazon.com/Last-Train-Memphis-Elvis-Presley/dp/0316332259/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1366351712&sr=1-1&keywords=Peter+Guralnick+Elvis
LastTrain.jpg


1999: Guralnick, Volume Two, Careless Love: The Unmaking of Elvis Presley:
http://www.amazon.com/Careless-Love-Unmaking-Elvis-Presley/dp/0316332976/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1366351758&sr=1-1&keywords=Peter+Guralnick+Elvis+Careless+Love
CarelessLove.jpg


2010: Gillian Gaar, Return of The King, Elvis Presley's Great Comeback: http://www.amazon.com/Return-Presleys-Comeback-Genuine-Jawbone/dp/1906002282/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1366352051&sr=1-1&keywords=Gillian+Gaar+Return+of+The+King
GillianGaarReturnofTheKing.jpg


These are the real biographies, so far. This group does not include oral histories, or first-person accounts of relationships with Elvis Presley. These are the biographies.

rjm
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Re: Albert Goldman --> The Evil That Men Do

Fri Apr 19, 2013 10:54 am

rjm wrote:
Mike Eder wrote:Wow it read so well in this version. The stuff about Elvis playing the Palace in high school or dating black girls I haven't heard elsewhere looking at the article from a factual standpoint, but this article was so very needed. Goldman's fall from grace can be traced back to here, thank goodness.


1.
Nat D. Williams' story about "the Palace" appears to be a little confused. There doesn't seem to be any record of Elvis playing the Palace, but he did attend the Goodwill Reviews in '56 and '57. And he was spotted in several Beale St. clubs when he was about 20, with some significant figures, but not on stage. He jumped on stage in the Sun era during a Lowell Fulson show, and this is confirmed completely by Scotty Moore.

On the other hand, according Louis Cantor's history of WDIA, Williams' daughter remembers Elvis, probably at about 19, at their house. He already had a fancy car, as she recalled. She was quite young, but remembered it very vividly! So, he did know "Nat Daddy," as he was known on the radio. Williams also taught at Booker T. Washington high school, and wrote for the Memphis World. (An African-American oriented newspaper, like the Tri-State Defender. I think he might also have done some writing for them, too, but I'm not sure.) Years before Elvis was old enough to be involved, he hosted amateur night at The Palace. So it appears to be just a little confusion.

He also hung out in West Memphis very, very early. He told some friends, also when very, very young (pre-Sun) that he he had been on Beale. (Rose Clayton's oral history. http://www.amazon.com/Elvis-Up-Close-Words-Those/dp/1570360588/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1366260514 ) B.B. King has remembered him there very, very early, in at least one interview a long time ago.

Guralnick "sort of" concurs with Goldman, but not completely. The truth is in between Guralnick's overly careful approach, and Marcus' very carefree approach to this.

2.
The "having sex with black girls" is something Marcus himself apparently picked up as Beale St. gossip. He went around talking to people. There was a member here, I have no memory of who, who claimed he saw a TV report back in the '80s about a "parking" encounter when Elvis was 18. I don't think so. Frankly, I think Elvis might have been a virgin the night he cut "That's All Right (Mama)." Maybe.

The implication is that they were perhaps ladies of the evening, but I don't think he did that. And it's only just gossip. Marcus was very angry . . .

rjm

Thanks for the reply. You basically confirm what I felt about it.

Re: Albert Goldman --> The Evil That Men Do

Fri Apr 19, 2013 11:09 am

Mike, a correction. "19" when spotted in clubs, "20" at Nat D. Williams' house. He had records in the trunk of his car, and this had to do with airplay on WDIA. Mr. Williams went outside to look at the car, and talk, while his young daughter took it all in.

rjm
Last edited by rjm on Fri Apr 19, 2013 11:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

Re: Albert Goldman --> The Evil That Men Do

Fri Apr 19, 2013 11:10 am

elvis-fan wrote:
fn2drive wrote:Apologies to all but I love the Goldman bio. Yes he is a pos as a human being. But he also ripped apart the Elvis myth as a shy, country boy even more than What Happened. As much as I love Elvis' music, Elvis lied to me everyday I was a fan. He generally lived an addicted depraved life that was 180 degrees opposite his image. He skillfully and manipulatively exploited his fans in that regard and for more than a few years.Now I also recognize that his addictions were just that- the weaknesses in man. Elvis destroyed his legacy not Albert Goldman. Goldman was not bloated, drug addled and recording bombastic ballads and maudlin divorce weepers. The only good that ever came from Elvis' decline and Goldman's over the top recounting was at a young age I realized the press were co-conspirators who couldn't be trusted either. For they covered up the lie that Goldman exposed. Doesn't mean Goldman wasn't hateful and filled with prejudice but that doesn't mean he didn't round out the story. Just sayin'

As the majority of his book is fiction, it does very little to discredit Elvis and/or his image. It's truly sad that there are still people like you who accept this mean-spirited, perverted trash as fact...


Time has given the book its place: it has never been consider an essential book on Elvis. That is telling enough. If people like trash like fn2drive well they should. Probably millions of people are reading the National Enquirer as well. We know its rubbish, yet they like it. Fn2drive like the Goldman book. We know it is rubbish. End of story.

Re: Albert Goldman --> The Evil That Men Do

Fri Apr 19, 2013 11:18 am

fn2drive wrote:Apologies to all but I love the Goldman bio. Yes he is a pos as a human being. But he also ripped apart the Elvis myth as a shy, country boy even more than What Happened. As much as I love Elvis' music, Elvis lied to me everyday I was a fan. He generally lived an addicted depraved life that was 180 degrees opposite his image. He skillfully and manipulatively exploited his fans in that regard and for more than a few years.Now I also recognize that his addictions were just that- the weaknesses in man. Elvis destroyed his legacy not Albert Goldman. Goldman was not bloated, drug addled and recording bombastic ballads and maudlin divorce weepers. The only good that ever came from Elvis' decline and Goldman's over the top recounting was at a young age I realized the press were co-conspirators who couldn't be trusted either. For they covered up the lie that Goldman exposed. Doesn't mean Goldman wasn't hateful and filled with prejudice but that doesn't mean he didn't round out the story. Just sayin'


Refreshing and unexpected perspective. Goldman's book is mean-spirited, but he has also been a bit of scapegoat. Elvis' image certainly was too clean to be true, and it was no wonder that the media and the writers went crazy after his addictions and weaknesses were revealed . Elvis paid a hard price for his success, but as I said earlier, time changes things: after the shock the music is still here and there have been better biographies.

Re: Albert Goldman --> The Evil That Men Do

Fri Apr 19, 2013 11:52 am

drjohncarpenter wrote:Clearly, some are posting illogical declarations in an attempt to stir up negative emotion.

Please do not be afraid to read the Marcus article.

It is engaging, enlightening and edifying. It is a bridge to the respectability regained in the 1990s, through the efforts of people like Peter Guralnick (biographer) and Ernst Jorgensen (RCA producer).


I have been trying several times but words are just to small on the scans. Also I did not succeed printing it readable. Is it possible for you to scan it with text just a tad more readable? Would be appreciated. Thanks.

Re: Albert Goldman --> The Evil That Men Do

Fri Apr 19, 2013 11:53 am

Albert Goldman wrote:Goldman's book is mean-spirited, but he has also been a bit of scapegoat.


Mean-spirited? That is being kind. A bit of a scapegoat? Don't make us laugh. Albert Goldman accepted a huge payday to take the dirt heaped on Elvis between 1977 and 1980 and pile it ten times as high, truth and dignity be damned. He hated Elvis Presley, and he hated all the people whose lives were forever changed by the man and his music.

The derision is deserved, his failures as a biographer worthy of documentation.

All of this does make one wonder why any true fan of Elvis, on an Elvis Presley forum, would specifically choose that author's name as their identity.

Re: Albert Goldman --> The Evil That Men Do

Fri Apr 19, 2013 11:57 am

Alexander wrote:
drjohncarpenter wrote:Clearly, some are posting illogical declarations in an attempt to stir up negative emotion.

Please do not be afraid to read the Marcus article.

It is engaging, enlightening and edifying. It is a bridge to the respectability regained in the 1990s, through the efforts of people like Peter Guralnick (biographer) and Ernst Jorgensen (RCA producer).


I have been trying several times but words are just to small on the scans. Also I did not succeed printing it readable. Is it possible for you to scan it with text just a tad more readable? Would be appreciated. Thanks.


The scans of the articles are 3471 x 4464 -- they are huge. There's no need to print. After you click an attached image, click the little 'x' at the lower right and it expands to full size.

Re: Albert Goldman --> The Evil That Men Do

Fri Apr 19, 2013 12:59 pm

drjohncarpenter wrote:
Albert Goldman wrote:Goldman's book is mean-spirited, but he has also been a bit of scapegoat.


Mean-spirited? That is being kind. A bit of a scapegoat? Don't make us laugh. Albert Goldman accepted a huge payday to take the dirt heaped on Elvis between 1977 and 1980 and pile it ten times as high, truth and dignity be damned. He hated Elvis Presley, and he hated all the people whose lives were forever changed by the man and his music.

The derision is deserved, his failures as a biographer worthy of documentation.

All of this does make one wonder why any true fan of Elvis, on an Elvis Presley forum, would specifically choose that author's name as their identity.


I have no reason to rage about Goldman's book 30 years after its release. I got over it a long time ago. If you criticize Goldman's book about hatred and lack of objectivity, take a look in the mirror: you are happy that the guy is dead (the evil has died, hurray...) and you choose to ignore the argument from the previous posts that Elvis destroyed himself - Goldman just made money out of it. Yes, he was a grave robber, but your rhetoric about evil is over the top.

Marcus' article is just fine, maybe even more than that, but why don't you just for once form your own opinions and views and not QUOTE and borrow them from someone else.

I'm not defending Goldman, but he has been demonized enough without my input. And his failures as a biographer has been well documented before you started googling. This is old news.

Re: Albert Goldman --> The Evil That Men Do

Fri Apr 19, 2013 1:26 pm

drjohncarpenter wrote:
Alexander wrote:
drjohncarpenter wrote:Clearly, some are posting illogical declarations in an attempt to stir up negative emotion.

Please do not be afraid to read the Marcus article.

It is engaging, enlightening and edifying. It is a bridge to the respectability regained in the 1990s, through the efforts of people like Peter Guralnick (biographer) and Ernst Jorgensen (RCA producer).


I have been trying several times but words are just to small on the scans. Also I did not succeed printing it readable. Is it possible for you to scan it with text just a tad more readable? Would be appreciated. Thanks.


The scans of the articles are 3471 x 4464 -- they are huge. There's no need to print. After you click an attached image, click the little 'x' at the lower right and it expands to full size.


That indeed does the job! Start reading right now, thanks!

Re: Albert Goldman --> The Evil That Men Do

Fri Apr 19, 2013 2:21 pm

drjohncarpenter wrote:
Alexander wrote:
drjohncarpenter wrote:Clearly, some are posting illogical declarations in an attempt to stir up negative emotion.

Please do not be afraid to read the Marcus article.

It is engaging, enlightening and edifying. It is a bridge to the respectability regained in the 1990s, through the efforts of people like Peter Guralnick (biographer) and Ernst Jorgensen (RCA producer).


I have been trying several times but words are just to small on the scans. Also I did not succeed printing it readable. Is it possible for you to scan it with text just a tad more readable? Would be appreciated. Thanks.


The scans of the articles are 3471 x 4464 -- they are huge. There's no need to print. After you click an attached image, click the little 'x' at the lower right and it expands to full size.


Done reading. Greil Marcus pretty much writes down what I ever thought about the book. Literary far better of course and far more factual but this was my feeling during the first and only time I read the book in the early 80s (I was a teen back then and disappointed that my father gave me this book, not the slightest disappointment in my hero though)...

Thanks for posting Doc, great article!

Re: Albert Goldman --> The Evil That Men Do

Fri Apr 19, 2013 6:15 pm

Goldman's book was the other bookend to the false image the Elvis machine portrayed for years with impunity. If we are honest about his career he produced little music of value between say 1962 and 1968 and after 1970/1. After sometime in 72 his live performances were stale and boring (acknowledging his personal charisma still could carry the day until 76). As a fan, I spent the last 4 or 5 years of his life waiting for an album I could be proud of and wondering would the next concert be different, a return to the glory of earlier in 70s while being treated to a steady decline in performance quality. What fan would take a non fan to a 1976 concert-I was embarrassed to even look at him in New Haven in 76 (cringe worthy). So crude or not when Goldman wrote 'Elvis Presley sh_ts the bed', I was shocked and disgusted. But then and over the years, true or just metaphorical, it didn't matter. What it really said was there was no bottom for this man who was the hero of millions. How much lower could you sink and not hear the wake up call-drowning in a bowl of soup, nearly killing a girl with cough syrup, sending a bullet through a wall while your girlfriend is in the bathroom, head being dunked in a bucket of cold water so he could get on stage and on and on.No drugging yourself to the point where you lose control of bodily functions is bottom. If that doesn't do it nothing will. Depression sure, destroyed the pleasure centers of his brain from years of drug abuse, likely but let's add to it he just checked out after his divorce. Elvis became the emperor with out any clothes surrounded by sycophants and losers. Albert Goldman got that call right which in many ways is the one that was the key to the decline. Felton Jarvis, Col Parker, Joe 'good show, good show' Esposito, RCA Records etc etc all sucking at his teet while all the while he was so self-aware that he knew and was too lazy, weak or damaged to care or fight.

And let's not forget this man was a father to an 8 year old girl- his behavior was nothing short of child abuse/neglect. So again Goldman was likely a despicable human being and his book may be as much fiction as fact but we lie to ourselves if we don't conclude that it paints an accurate picture of what Elvis" life became. I know it to rings true every time I hear My Boy or look at a concert photo from 76 and 77. While I have a lot of empathy for Elvis and his decline, I also have a lot of anger that he cheated me and millions of others out of the art he should have created. No doubt Goldman didn't understand Elvis was one of the greatest artists of all time. Albert Goldman does help to explain how Elvis really became Elvis and how Elvis killed Elvis and in many ways better than either of Peter Guralnik's great bios. I know my opinion may be controversial and for that I apologize. The Elvis machine deluded and distracted me from the truth when he was alive. I won't subscribe to revisionist history now that I know better.

Re: Albert Goldman --> The Evil That Men Do

Fri Apr 19, 2013 6:37 pm

Thanks very much, DOC! Good information for many of us. Your work and efforts are much appreciated.

rlj

Re: Albert Goldman --> The Evil That Men Do

Fri Apr 19, 2013 7:05 pm

Alexander wrote:
drjohncarpenter wrote:The scans of the articles are 3471 x 4464 -- they are huge. There's no need to print. After you click an attached image, click the little 'x' at the lower right and it expands to full size.


That indeed does the job! Start reading right now, thanks!


You are very welcome. Those pages, by the way, are scanned from my personal archives, not by "Googling." ;-)