Off Topic Messages

Re: Margaret Thatcher, Former UK PM, Dead At 87

Tue Apr 09, 2013 4:54 pm

memphisto wrote:
poormadpeter wrote:Sadly, the "I'm glad she's dead" approach which we have seen does nothing for the people affected by Thatcher or being affected by Cameron today - it just makes them come across as callous kn*bs. The problem with our politics at the moment is that we don't have effective opposition, and the same things can be said about these kinds of comments. If, as an opponent to someone, the best you can say is "I'm glad she's dead" then you're really not going to win over anyone to your way of thinking and your views.


I guess I am one of those "callous kn*bs" you refer to. I guess that you werent much affected by her 11 years in power but those that lived within sight of those places that experienced mass unemployment, de-industrialisation, and the effects of her monetary policy on the working class. I on the other hand lived not that far away from Ravenscraig, despite high production levels and mass protests the steel mill was closed down. The closure left the towns adjacent like ghost towns. I left school at the height of the unemployment level, something that irks me until this very day, because there were no jobs, there were few if any opportunities, nada, zilch. Because of where I lived and the time I left school led to me being unemployed for 5 years through no want in trying to get a job. I saw many in the same position. At the same time, I was an avid watcher of the news since I was young, watched people in the south of the UK get rich. I watched Scotland become a test subject for the poll tax and saw the riots that ensued. I watched as the oil that was discovered in the waters of Scotland was used to gamble on the world's stock markets while few here benefited from it. And the country has went from a nation of builders and creators to a nation of salesmen. The current problems exist because of what she did back then, that was the beginning.

Personally I despise her, I despise what she stood for and this country is a better place without her. Unfortunately her legacy still exists, and watching Labour politicians make fawning comments about her...it just shows you that the country is a 1 party state now appealing to middle England. And the government are doing the exact same thing today as they did then. I wonder when people will wake up.


On the contrary, I lived through that too, and also left school at around the same time you did, and was also unemployed (3 years in my case, with the exception of temping). But you despise someone all you like, but that doesn't mean you should celebrate someone's death. To be fair, it doesn't bother me one way or the other that she's gone, but people holding street parties etc is just ridiculous. Yes, she did some horrible things and I'm certainly not supporting her politics. But she did what she said she was going to do for the most part, and had the backing of much of the country - which is why I despise 80s Britain far more than I can despise one woman who was simply a figurehead for everything that was going on at the time.

Re: Margaret Thatcher, Former UK PM, Dead At 87

Tue Apr 09, 2013 6:11 pm

poormadpeter wrote:
memphisto wrote:
poormadpeter wrote:Sadly, the "I'm glad she's dead" approach which we have seen does nothing for the people affected by Thatcher or being affected by Cameron today - it just makes them come across as callous kn*bs. The problem with our politics at the moment is that we don't have effective opposition, and the same things can be said about these kinds of comments. If, as an opponent to someone, the best you can say is "I'm glad she's dead" then you're really not going to win over anyone to your way of thinking and your views.


I guess I am one of those "callous kn*bs" you refer to. I guess that you werent much affected by her 11 years in power but those that lived within sight of those places that experienced mass unemployment, de-industrialisation, and the effects of her monetary policy on the working class. I on the other hand lived not that far away from Ravenscraig, despite high production levels and mass protests the steel mill was closed down. The closure left the towns adjacent like ghost towns. I left school at the height of the unemployment level, something that irks me until this very day, because there were no jobs, there were few if any opportunities, nada, zilch. Because of where I lived and the time I left school led to me being unemployed for 5 years through no want in trying to get a job. I saw many in the same position. At the same time, I was an avid watcher of the news since I was young, watched people in the south of the UK get rich. I watched Scotland become a test subject for the poll tax and saw the riots that ensued. I watched as the oil that was discovered in the waters of Scotland was used to gamble on the world's stock markets while few here benefited from it. And the country has went from a nation of builders and creators to a nation of salesmen. The current problems exist because of what she did back then, that was the beginning.

Personally I despise her, I despise what she stood for and this country is a better place without her. Unfortunately her legacy still exists, and watching Labour politicians make fawning comments about her...it just shows you that the country is a 1 party state now appealing to middle England. And the government are doing the exact same thing today as they did then. I wonder when people will wake up.


On the contrary, I lived through that too, and also left school at around the same time you did, and was also unemployed (3 years in my case, with the exception of temping). But you despise someone all you like, but that doesn't mean you should celebrate someone's death. To be fair, it doesn't bother me one way or the other that she's gone, but people holding street parties etc is just ridiculous. Yes, she did some horrible things and I'm certainly not supporting her politics. But she did what she said she was going to do for the most part, and had the backing of much of the country - which is why I despise 80s Britain far more than I can despise one woman who was simply a figurehead for everything that was going on at the time.


I think celebration is the wrong word. I dont think its as much a celebration as closure for many people affected by what she did to them. I agree street parties are a bit over the top but thats their choice and their right of free speech.

As for the backing of most of the country, well, there has rarely been a true majority......the Conservatives are why the country was and is divided...and the divisions have been growing wider each day ever since.

I dont get the figurehead reference, that is like saying Saddam Hussein was a figurehead and had little relevance in the atrocities that the regime committed. Elected or not, she made the decisions.

Re: Margaret Thatcher, Former UK PM, Dead At 87

Tue Apr 09, 2013 6:56 pm

Mike C wrote:
zolderopruiming1 wrote:
Mike C wrote:God love her! As she so eloquently said long ago, "The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money."


The problem with people like Thatcher is that they live off poor people's money and their comes a time when the poor people are so poor, they are bleeded dry.
Like the people in Brixton said: Ding dong the witch is dead.

By the way, has anybody ever noticed that most nice people die young while people like Thatcher grow very old?


How exactly did she live off poor people's money? Isn't this true of any government leader who serves in office?


She lived off other people's money but said "The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money." That's weird!
For her high income other people had to pay, even when those people were very poor. She did not say she'd take less!

Re: Margaret Thatcher, Former UK PM, Dead At 87

Tue Apr 09, 2013 6:58 pm

zolderopruiming1 wrote:
Mike C wrote:
zolderopruiming1 wrote:
Mike C wrote:God love her! As she so eloquently said long ago, "The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money."


The problem with people like Thatcher is that they live off poor people's money and their comes a time when the poor people are so poor, they are bleeded dry.
Like the people in Brixton said: Ding dong the witch is dead.

By the way, has anybody ever noticed that most nice people die young while people like Thatcher grow very old?


How exactly did she live off poor people's money? Isn't this true of any government leader who serves in office?


She lived off other people's money but said "The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money." That's weird!
For her high income other people had to pay, even when those people were very poor. She did not say she'd take less!


You might as well say that for all politicians - and royalty. While others are struggling, you queen is getting a rise this year in money going to her

Re: Margaret Thatcher, Former UK PM, Dead At 87

Tue Apr 09, 2013 7:02 pm

memphisto wrote:
poormadpeter wrote:
memphisto wrote:
poormadpeter wrote:Sadly, the "I'm glad she's dead" approach which we have seen does nothing for the people affected by Thatcher or being affected by Cameron today - it just makes them come across as callous kn*bs. The problem with our politics at the moment is that we don't have effective opposition, and the same things can be said about these kinds of comments. If, as an opponent to someone, the best you can say is "I'm glad she's dead" then you're really not going to win over anyone to your way of thinking and your views.


I guess I am one of those "callous kn*bs" you refer to. I guess that you werent much affected by her 11 years in power but those that lived within sight of those places that experienced mass unemployment, de-industrialisation, and the effects of her monetary policy on the working class. I on the other hand lived not that far away from Ravenscraig, despite high production levels and mass protests the steel mill was closed down. The closure left the towns adjacent like ghost towns. I left school at the height of the unemployment level, something that irks me until this very day, because there were no jobs, there were few if any opportunities, nada, zilch. Because of where I lived and the time I left school led to me being unemployed for 5 years through no want in trying to get a job. I saw many in the same position. At the same time, I was an avid watcher of the news since I was young, watched people in the south of the UK get rich. I watched Scotland become a test subject for the poll tax and saw the riots that ensued. I watched as the oil that was discovered in the waters of Scotland was used to gamble on the world's stock markets while few here benefited from it. And the country has went from a nation of builders and creators to a nation of salesmen. The current problems exist because of what she did back then, that was the beginning.

Personally I despise her, I despise what she stood for and this country is a better place without her. Unfortunately her legacy still exists, and watching Labour politicians make fawning comments about her...it just shows you that the country is a 1 party state now appealing to middle England. And the government are doing the exact same thing today as they did then. I wonder when people will wake up.


On the contrary, I lived through that too, and also left school at around the same time you did, and was also unemployed (3 years in my case, with the exception of temping). But you despise someone all you like, but that doesn't mean you should celebrate someone's death. To be fair, it doesn't bother me one way or the other that she's gone, but people holding street parties etc is just ridiculous. Yes, she did some horrible things and I'm certainly not supporting her politics. But she did what she said she was going to do for the most part, and had the backing of much of the country - which is why I despise 80s Britain far more than I can despise one woman who was simply a figurehead for everything that was going on at the time.


I think celebration is the wrong word. I dont think its as much a celebration as closure for many people affected by what she did to them. I agree street parties are a bit over the top but thats their choice and their right of free speech.

As for the backing of most of the country, well, there has rarely been a true majority......the Conservatives are why the country was and is divided...and the divisions have been growing wider each day ever since.

I dont get the figurehead reference, that is like saying Saddam Hussein was a figurehead and had little relevance in the atrocities that the regime committed. Elected or not, she made the decisions.


On the contrary, Hussein was a dictator - he didn't have the backing of the people. Thatcher did. People voted for her and her policies - and even nearly a decade after the miners strikes, the Tory's got in again - this time under John Major. Thatcher represented everything that was wrong with 1980s Britain - namely "greed" for the most part - but she wasn't solely reponsible for it in the way people suggest. Had she got in power without a public vote then I would agree with everything you say, but she didn't. She had the backing of millions of people who clearly agreed with what she was doing. Each and every one of those voters is as responsible for the Thatcher era as Thatcher herself - without them she couldn't have done any of it.

Re: Margaret Thatcher, Former UK PM, Dead At 87

Tue Apr 09, 2013 8:32 pm

A woman with the heart of a lion. RIP Baroness Thatcher.

Re: Margaret Thatcher, Former UK PM, Dead At 87

Tue Apr 09, 2013 11:28 pm

RIP Iron Lady.

Re: Margaret Thatcher, Former UK PM, Dead At 87

Wed Apr 10, 2013 12:02 am

daylon wrote:Condolensces to her family.

This statement by film director Ken Loach mirrors pretty much what I think about her, her policies and her tory pals.

"Margaret Thatcher was the most divisive and destructive Prime Minister of modern times".

"Mass Unemployment, factory closures, communities destroyed – this is her legacy. She was a fighter and her enemy was the British working class"


And she didn't like the Scots and we didn't like her.


Good post ! and we scots hated the old cow !!!

Re: Margaret Thatcher, Former UK PM, Dead At 87

Wed Apr 10, 2013 4:47 am

I always liked her, but then I'm an American and all I knew what was I read in the papers.

I didn't vote for her, didn't live in the UK under her administration, don't have a true grasp of all the conditions that led up to her time in power, what she accomplished (or hoped to accomplish), or the aftermath. Our cultures, while simpatico, are not the same. Therefore, I really don't feel I can comment. Perhaps, something we should all keep in mind as we approach each others' politics.

Re: Margaret Thatcher, Former UK PM, Dead At 87

Wed Apr 10, 2013 4:52 am

Wow.

Different countries altogether, but if former President Jimmy Carter
had died and Republicans were celebrating the way some of you are,
I'd be ashamed.

RIP Margaret Thatcher

Re: Margaret Thatcher, Former UK PM, Dead At 87

Wed Apr 10, 2013 5:32 am

iplayastrat wrote:Wow.

Different countries altogether, but if former President Jimmy Carter
had died and Republicans were celebrating the way some of you are,
I'd be ashamed.

RIP Margaret Thatcher




Jimmy Carter is still alive ?? :mrgreen:

Re: Margaret Thatcher, Former UK PM, Dead At 87

Wed Apr 10, 2013 5:41 am

MaryAnn wrote:I always liked her, but then I'm an American and all I knew what was I read in the papers.

I didn't vote for her, didn't live in the UK under her administration, don't have a true grasp of all the conditions that led up to her time in power, what she accomplished (or hoped to accomplish), or the aftermath. Our cultures, while simpatico, are not the same. Therefore, I really don't feel I can comment. Perhaps, something we should all keep in mind as we approach each others' politics.


Not strictly true - it is much easier in 2013 to follow another country's political situation and the social effects of it because we have access to each other's newsstations, internet sites, newspapers...and can interact with other human beings via the internet (and forums such as this). Our opinions of other people's situations are a million times more informed than thirty years ago.

Re: Margaret Thatcher, Former UK PM, Dead At 87

Wed Apr 10, 2013 5:48 am

poormadpeter wrote:
MaryAnn wrote:I always liked her, but then I'm an American and all I knew what was I read in the papers.

I didn't vote for her, didn't live in the UK under her administration, don't have a true grasp of all the conditions that led up to her time in power, what she accomplished (or hoped to accomplish), or the aftermath. Our cultures, while simpatico, are not the same. Therefore, I really don't feel I can comment. Perhaps, something we should all keep in mind as we approach each others' politics.


Not strictly true - it is much easier in 2013 to follow another country's political situation and the social effects of it because we have access to each other's newsstations, internet sites, newspapers...and can interact with other human beings via the internet (and forums such as this). Our opinions of other people's situations are a million times more informed than thirty years ago.


I thought about that before posting, PMP. There's something about a country's history, the land, the culture, the blood -- that can't be easily assimilated no matter what the technology. It's in the psyche. We need to be careful.

Re: Margaret Thatcher, Former UK PM, Dead At 87

Wed Apr 10, 2013 6:34 am

MaryAnn wrote:
poormadpeter wrote:
MaryAnn wrote:I always liked her, but then I'm an American and all I knew what was I read in the papers.

I didn't vote for her, didn't live in the UK under her administration, don't have a true grasp of all the conditions that led up to her time in power, what she accomplished (or hoped to accomplish), or the aftermath. Our cultures, while simpatico, are not the same. Therefore, I really don't feel I can comment. Perhaps, something we should all keep in mind as we approach each others' politics.


Not strictly true - it is much easier in 2013 to follow another country's political situation and the social effects of it because we have access to each other's newsstations, internet sites, newspapers...and can interact with other human beings via the internet (and forums such as this). Our opinions of other people's situations are a million times more informed than thirty years ago.


I thought about that before posting, PMP. There's something about a country's history, the land, the culture, the blood -- that can't be easily assimilated no matter what the technology. It's in the psyche. We need to be careful.


True to an extent. I held a lot in yesterday, before I turned loose about it, because of certain U.K. friends who are very patriotic.

That said, jake's comment took the knot out of my stomach!

rjm


Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I317 using Tapatalk 2

Re: Margaret Thatcher, Former UK PM, Dead At 87

Wed Apr 10, 2013 6:38 am

ColinB wrote:
poormadpeter wrote:I'm no apologist of Thatcher or her vision - although, to be fair, at least she had a vision, which is more than you can say for Bill and Ben in charge at the moment.

However, Thatcher couldn't have done any of the above that you name if she hadn't been voted in. And she wasn't voted in just once, but three times. The first time, perhaps the country was dazzled by the thought of a female leader. The second time, perhaps she was voted for because of the positive outcome of the Falklands War. But by the third time, she had committed most of her sins, and yet was still voted in and with a decent majority - and then the Tories were voted in again in 1992 or 1993 (can't remember which). She wasn't a dictator. Blame society in 1980s Britain as much as one individual.


The electorate [at the time] were impressed by her 'resolute' approach.

She got things done !

Unfortunately, what she 'got done' were things like the Poll Tax, the dismantling of the UK's manufacturing base & the deregulation of the financial markets.

None of these did the country's long-term prospects any good at all &, in fact, quite the reverse.


absolutely correct Colin......
however when she came 'in' she was 'good' for a few years!~ :smt001

Re: Margaret Thatcher, Former UK PM, Dead At 87

Wed Apr 10, 2013 6:41 am

iplayastrat wrote:Wow.

Different countries altogether, but if former President Jimmy Carter
had died and Republicans were celebrating the way some of you are,
I'd be ashamed.

RIP Margaret Thatcher


You are joking, right? If you believe, as is the customary belief, that he was a well-meaning screw-up who put human rights before electoral concerns, fine. But c'mon! Maybe he was a failure, but he failed trying to do right! He is about peace. Nobody's perfect in that way, and he has stumbled, but c'mon! Thatcher?

I said "God rest her soul."

rjm
P.S. -- He's not only alive, but on Jon Stewart: now. He just dissed @prezbillyjeff, regarding Korea. He's like 88 and kickin' butt for peace. (And ending Guinea Worm Disease.)

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I317 using Tapatalk 2

Re: Margaret Thatcher, Former UK PM, Dead At 87

Wed Apr 10, 2013 11:37 am

iplayastrat wrote:Wow.

Different countries altogether, but if former President Jimmy Carter
had died and Republicans were celebrating the way some of you are,
I'd be ashamed.

RIP Margaret Thatcher


But there were celebrations of the death of Hugo Chavez,
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VH7KH2-de10[/youtube]

The difference today is that we are living in a world of mass media where everything is captured. 15 years ago this wouldnt have been seen anywhere. You may be surprised what videos will appear when the next president dies.

You are not aware of the full effects that Thatcher had on this country. I heard that the North of England was far worse, as was Brixton in London where there were minor riots.

Re: Margaret Thatcher, Former UK PM, Dead At 87

Wed Apr 10, 2013 12:47 pm

memphisto wrote:
iplayastrat wrote:Wow.

Different countries altogether, but if former President Jimmy Carter
had died and Republicans were celebrating the way some of you are,
I'd be ashamed.

RIP Margaret Thatcher


But there were celebrations of the death of Hugo Chavez,
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VH7KH2-de10[/youtube]

The difference today is that we are living in a world of mass media where everything is captured. 15 years ago this wouldnt have been seen anywhere. You may be surprised what videos will appear when the next president dies.

You are not aware of the full effects that Thatcher had on this country. I heard that the North of England was far worse, as was Brixton in London where there were minor riots.



Does brixton really need a reason to riot ! they will have one at the drop of a hat.the whole of england pissed themselfs laughing when scotland got f*cked with the poll tax as guinea pigs,one year later they went crazy when they got it and it became a big deal.now scottish hating torys don't get much of a vote in scotland !!!
Last edited by rocknroller on Sun Apr 14, 2013 8:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

Re: Margaret Thatcher, Former UK PM, Dead At 87

Wed Apr 10, 2013 1:05 pm

From today's Independent:

Maggie Thatcher [Independent Cartoon].JPG
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

Re: Margaret Thatcher, Former UK PM, Dead At 87

Wed Apr 10, 2013 1:12 pm

ColinB wrote:From today's Independent:

Maggie Thatcher [Independent Cartoon].JPG



LOL good one colin ! looks about right too me !!!

Re: Margaret Thatcher, Former UK PM, Dead At 87

Wed Apr 10, 2013 1:46 pm

I feel there aren't many people gonna miss her from my neck of the woods, she crippled the whole area and we haven't fully recovered yet.

Re: Margaret Thatcher, Former UK PM, Dead At 87

Wed Apr 10, 2013 3:21 pm

MaryAnn wrote:
poormadpeter wrote:
MaryAnn wrote:I always liked her, but then I'm an American and all I knew what was I read in the papers.

I didn't vote for her, didn't live in the UK under her administration, don't have a true grasp of all the conditions that led up to her time in power, what she accomplished (or hoped to accomplish), or the aftermath. Our cultures, while simpatico, are not the same. Therefore, I really don't feel I can comment. Perhaps, something we should all keep in mind as we approach each others' politics.


Not strictly true - it is much easier in 2013 to follow another country's political situation and the social effects of it because we have access to each other's newsstations, internet sites, newspapers...and can interact with other human beings via the internet (and forums such as this). Our opinions of other people's situations are a million times more informed than thirty years ago.


I thought about that before posting, PMP. There's something about a country's history, the land, the culture, the blood -- that can't be easily assimilated no matter what the technology. It's in the psyche. We need to be careful.


That's true to a certain extent - but it also means that people from other countries can see things that those within that country cannot. Is there anyone here who would not say that North Korea would be better off with a democratic system and not their current leader?!

Re: Margaret Thatcher, Former UK PM, Dead At 87

Wed Apr 10, 2013 3:24 pm

rocknroller wrote:
ColinB wrote:From today's Independent:

Maggie Thatcher [Independent Cartoon].JPG



LOL good one colin ! looks about right too me !!!


I like that there are rats following behind...and that its heading to a coal mine...

Re: Margaret Thatcher, Former UK PM, Dead At 87

Wed Apr 10, 2013 3:56 pm

rjm wrote:
iplayastrat wrote:Wow.

Different countries altogether, but if former President Jimmy Carter
had died and Republicans were celebrating the way some of you are,
I'd be ashamed.

RIP Margaret Thatcher


You are joking, right? If you believe, as is the customary belief, that he was a well-meaning screw-up who put human rights before electoral concerns, fine. But c'mon! Maybe he was a failure, but he failed trying to do right! He is about peace. Nobody's perfect in that way, and he has stumbled, but c'mon! Thatcher?

I said "God rest her soul."

rjm
P.S. -- He's not only alive, but on Jon Stewart: now. He just dissed @prezbillyjeff, regarding Korea. He's like 88 and kickin' butt for peace. (And ending Guinea Worm Disease.)

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I317 using Tapatalk 2




Guinea Worm Disease? I thought the Italians were healthy folks given all the pasta, garlic and red wine they consume.

Re: Margaret Thatcher, Former UK PM, Dead At 87

Wed Apr 10, 2013 4:19 pm

She may have done some good things for the country ??? but during her terms, she presided over the highest unemployment rate ever seen in the UK(12% and the rate never dropped much during her terms), she also presided over 2 MAJOR recessions(the worst since the 30's). Interest rates reached an all time high during her terms (17%,) Imagine trying to pay a mortgage with that rate now!!. The economy wasn't much better than it is now.

I can't understand why people consider her a "great Prime Minister or great leader...what did she do that made her so great; is record high unemployment or taking the country into recession twice a barometer of her greatness?

She was by far the worst PM this country has ever had. She ruined the manufacturing industry and decimated the heavy engineering industry, steel works, mines etc and put millions out of work, with no hope or future for the majority of these people and it is disgraceful that we are paying for her send off(£10million or so). As one Scottish politician has said "that BT should step up to pay for the funeral" adding that it would be "symbolic and beautifully approppriate" ..she was vociferous on cutting public spending during her terms, probably apt that one of the businesses she privatised should pay.