Off Topic Messages

Margaret Thatcher, Former UK PM, Dead At 87

Mon Apr 08, 2013 3:34 pm

Image



Margaret Thatcher, one of the most important British politicians of the 20th century, has died at the age of 87. She was the first woman to become U.K. prime minister and Britain's only prime minister of the 20th century to win three consecutive terms.

After leading the Conservatives to victory in the 1979 election, Thatcher shook Britain to its economic roots in a relentless battle to restructure the country.

Richard Longworth of the Chicago Tribune described Thatcher in 1989 as "perhaps the most admired, hated, fascinating, boring, radical and conservative leader in the western world."

The next year she would be forced from office by her own party.

Born Margaret Hilda Roberts in Grantham, England in 1925 she was the second daughter of Alfred and Beatrice Roberts. Her father eventually owned two grocery stores (the family lived above one of them) and would become mayor of Grantham.

"Of course I just owe almost everything to my father. He brought me up to believe almost all the things I do believe."

She graduated from Oxford in 1947 after majoring in chemistry. She was barred from joining the all-male Oxford Union debating society, so she joined Oxford's conservative association and in 1946 became its first female president.

She ran for parliament in 1950, the youngest person seeking a seat. She lost — and lost again the next year.

At the end of 1951 she married Denis Thatcher, a wealthy, divorced businessman she met in 1949.

Since graduating, Margaret had been working as a research chemist. She returned to university and earned a law degree in 1953. A multi-tasker, she gave birth that year to twins and continued to be politically active.

After being called to the bar she specialized in patent law and then tax law, until 1961.

Elected to parliament on her third try

In 1959 she was elected as the MP from Finchley. Two years later Prime Minister Harold Macmillan named her parliamentary secretary to the minister of pensions and insurance.

From 1964 to 1970 the Labour Party governed and Thatcher held various portfolios in the opposition shadow cabinet.

When the Conservatives were back in power under Edward Heath, Thatcher was the secretary of state for education and science, the only woman in the cabinet. She got attention when she abolished a free milk program for school children, and was dubbed 'Thatcher the milk snatcher' by the Labour opposition.

Heath resigned as leader after losing the 1974 election and his successor was the first women to lead the Conservatives, Margaret Thatcher.

"I am not a consensus politician. I am a conviction politician," Thatcher announced when she took over in 1975.

That kind of approach earned her the nickname the Iron Lady, which she wore proudly. That description originated in the Russian media after she harshly denounced Soviet expansionism and questioned the long-standing Western policy of detente with the Soviet Union in 1976.

Here's an example of how she turned the nickname to her advantage in the 1979 election campaign, at a rally in Birmingham: "We took that risk in 1976 when we warned the nation of the growing dangers of Soviet expansion. And what happened? The Russians said that I was an Iron Lady. They were right. Britain needs an Iron Lady."

Her campaign slogan was "Labour isn't working," a slogan that U.S. Republican presidential candidate Mitt Romney borrowed for his own campaign in 2012, "Obama isn't working."

Two years before she took the reins as Conservative Party leader, Thatcher said on the BBC: "I don't think there will be a woman prime minister in my lifetime."

But after winning the May 3, 1979 election, Margaret Thatcher became prime minister the next day.

Her victory followed six weeks of public sector strikes known as the winter of discontent, which caused deep difficulties for the Labour government and eventually led to its fall.

Once in office Thatcher slashed the tax rates for the wealthiest Britons, increased the value-added tax (VAT), reduced government subsidies and began to sell off state-owned enterprises and public housing.

The number of unemployed quickly doubled.

"We shall not be diverted from our course," she told the party conference in Brighton in 1980. She continued: "To those waiting with bated breath for that favourite media catchphrase the U-turn, I have only one thing to say: You turn if you want to. The lady's not for turning."

By March 1982, the Conservatives had fallen to third place in public opinion polls, with just a 22 per cent approval rating.

A bold decision to go to war

The next month, there was a huge opportunity to turn that plummeting support around: Argentina's military dictatorship seized the Falkland Islands, a British overseas territory in the South Atlantic Ocean, which Argentina also claimed.

If politics is the art of knowing what to do next, Thatcher showed she had the right stuff.

"I worried stiff. It was a decision which had to be taken, a very bold courageous decision," she recalled in a 1983 interview.

A naval task force was quickly dispatched. After 10 weeks and the loss of 255 British lives, Argentina surrendered. "Great Britain is great again," Thatcher shouted to a jubilant crowd outside her residence.

Thatcher called an early election in 1983 and won a larger majority, although with a popular vote lower than in 1979.

Thatcher continued to forge ahead with her policies, known as Thatcherism. She succeeded in curbing union power, especially with the defeat of the mineworkers in 1984-85.

She took on the Irish Republican Army, but had little success in solving the crisis in Northern Ireland. In 1984 the Provisional IRA tried to kill her by placing a bomb in her hotel in Brighton. Five people were killed, Thatcher's bathroom was destroyed, but she and her husband emerged unscathed.

In a 1986 profile of Thatcher in The New Yorker magazine, John Newhouse wrote: "Her policies are blamed for Britain's having become a net importer of manufactured goods — for the first time since the days of Henry VIII." Newhouse went on to note that, according to the IMF, the average Briton had become poorer than the average Italian.

Thatcher would stay the course. "This government has rolled back the frontiers of the state and will roll them back still further," she triumphantly declared at the party conference in October 1986.

The unemployment rate was dropping at the time, although inflation was rising.

Re: Margaret Thatcher, Former UK PM, Dead At 87

Mon Apr 08, 2013 3:38 pm

About the only thing myself and the "Iron Lady" had in common were the colours of our hair, although it would be true to say that I didn't realise how much I disagreed with her policies at the time, being only 16 when she stood down.

Political opinions aside, she was a remarkable woman and a remarkable character - and character is something that seems to be totally missing from UK politics at the moment (Boris notwithstanding). It was almost a joke that the colourful Thatcher was replaced by the colourless John Major.

The last few years have not been kind to Margaret Thatcher, and perhaps the saddest part of today's news is how this remarkable, charismatic, powerful woman became so frail in recent years, showing us just how vicious old age can be.

Re: Margaret Thatcher, Former UK PM, Dead At 87

Mon Apr 08, 2013 4:29 pm

She helped make Britain of the 1980s a bleak and dark place.

RIP

Re: Margaret Thatcher, Former UK PM, Dead At 87

Mon Apr 08, 2013 8:39 pm

Condolensces to her family.

This statement by film director Ken Loach mirrors pretty much what I think about her, her policies and her tory pals.

"Margaret Thatcher was the most divisive and destructive Prime Minister of modern times".

"Mass Unemployment, factory closures, communities destroyed – this is her legacy. She was a fighter and her enemy was the British working class"


And she didn't like the Scots and we didn't like her.

Re: Margaret Thatcher, Former UK PM, Dead At 87

Mon Apr 08, 2013 10:34 pm

God love her! As she so eloquently said long ago, "The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money."

Re: Margaret Thatcher, Former UK PM, Dead At 87

Mon Apr 08, 2013 11:10 pm

Yes she was a remarkable women!~
a sad day indeed and saved Britain :cry:
a remarkable woman :smt006

Re: Margaret Thatcher, Former UK PM, Dead At 87

Tue Apr 09, 2013 12:23 am

daylon wrote:Condolensces to her family.

This statement by film director Ken Loach mirrors pretty much what I think about her, her policies and her tory pals.

"Margaret Thatcher was the most divisive and destructive Prime Minister of modern times".

"Mass Unemployment, factory closures, communities destroyed – this is her legacy. She was a fighter and her enemy was the British working class"


And she didn't like the Scots and we didn't like her.


I'm no apologist of Thatcher or her vision - although, to be fair, at least she had a vision, which is more than you can say for Bill and Ben in charge at the moment.

However, Thatcher couldn't have done any of the above that you name if she hadn't been voted in. And she wasn't voted in just once, but three times. The first time, perhaps the country was dazzled by the thought of a female leader. The second time, perhaps she was voted for because of the positive outcome of the Falklands War. But by the third time, she had committed most of her sins, and yet was still voted in and with a decent majority - and then the Tories were voted in again in 1992 or 1993 (can't remember which). She wasn't a dictator. Blame society in 1980s Britain as much as one individual.

Re: Margaret Thatcher, Former UK PM, Dead At 87

Tue Apr 09, 2013 1:41 am

poormadpeter wrote:
daylon wrote:Condolensces to her family.

This statement by film director Ken Loach mirrors pretty much what I think about her, her policies and her tory pals.

"Margaret Thatcher was the most divisive and destructive Prime Minister of modern times".

"Mass Unemployment, factory closures, communities destroyed – this is her legacy. She was a fighter and her enemy was the British working class"


And she didn't like the Scots and we didn't like her.


I'm no apologist of Thatcher or her vision - although, to be fair, at least she had a vision, which is more than you can say for Bill and Ben in charge at the moment.

However, Thatcher couldn't have done any of the above that you name if she hadn't been voted in. And she wasn't voted in just once, but three times. The first time, perhaps the country was dazzled by the thought of a female leader. The second time, perhaps she was voted for because of the positive outcome of the Falklands War. But by the third time, she had committed most of her sins, and yet was still voted in and with a decent majority - and then the Tories were voted in again in 1992 or 1993 (can't remember which). She wasn't a dictator. Blame society in 1980s Britain as much as one individual.



Yes, it was the floating voter and the newly-moneyed working class people who switched their votes to her and changed party allegiances to a significant degree. The south was pretty much coloured blue the day after elections. Many working class enjoyed their 'loadsamoney' and were put off by Labour's image problems, until Tony Blair's "New Labour" finally ended the Tory hold.

She was divisive and made a lot of people angry, but, without doubt she was also a mould-breaker who probably inspired many people, especially women. I would say, along with Churchill, she dominated British politics like no other in the last 100+ years.

Re: Margaret Thatcher, Former UK PM, Dead At 87

Tue Apr 09, 2013 2:06 am

Suds wrote:
poormadpeter wrote:
daylon wrote:Condolensces to her family.

This statement by film director Ken Loach mirrors pretty much what I think about her, her policies and her tory pals.

"Margaret Thatcher was the most divisive and destructive Prime Minister of modern times".

"Mass Unemployment, factory closures, communities destroyed – this is her legacy. She was a fighter and her enemy was the British working class"


And she didn't like the Scots and we didn't like her.


I'm no apologist of Thatcher or her vision - although, to be fair, at least she had a vision, which is more than you can say for Bill and Ben in charge at the moment.

However, Thatcher couldn't have done any of the above that you name if she hadn't been voted in. And she wasn't voted in just once, but three times. The first time, perhaps the country was dazzled by the thought of a female leader. The second time, perhaps she was voted for because of the positive outcome of the Falklands War. But by the third time, she had committed most of her sins, and yet was still voted in and with a decent majority - and then the Tories were voted in again in 1992 or 1993 (can't remember which). She wasn't a dictator. Blame society in 1980s Britain as much as one individual.



Yes, it was the floating voter and the newly-moneyed working class people who switched their votes to her and changed party allegiances to a significant degree. The south was pretty much coloured blue the day after elections. Many working class enjoyed their 'loadsamoney' and were put off by Labour's image problems, until Tony Blair's "New Labour" finally ended the Tory hold.

She was divisive and made a lot of people angry, but, without doubt she was also a mould-breaker who probably inspired many people, especially women. I would say, along with Churchill, she dominated British politics like no other in the last 100+ years.


Yes, I think that;s true. And, of course, while many of the policies have come back to bite us in the bum (such as the right to buy council houses), they were extremely popular at the time. I remember our family thinking about it at the time - mum and dad had been in council houses for years, and the reduction you got when you bought really was massive and extremely tempting. And it was a good idea at the time, and a wonderful chance for people to own homes who would never have had that chance otherwise. The problem of course was that the money wasn't ploughed back into building new council properties, bu we didn't know that at the time.

Meanwhile, while the decision to close mines etc was deeply unpopular, so too was the miner's figurehead, Arthur Scargill. Even watching footage today of him, it's hard to sympathise with what he is saying on behalf of his workers because he was so dislikeable as a man. Should that matter? Probably not, but it does and it always will do in the TV era. Thatcher was always quite the opposite, and always kept her dignity and acted in a dignified manner. Scargill ended up representing the working classes in a manner of speaking, and acting and speaking in the way he did didn't do anyone any favours except Thatcher herself.

Of course, from a personal point of view, Section 28 was an horrific thing. However, I'm not so sure that it "ruined people's lives" or "turned people against gays" - both comments I've read today on twitter. While there had been advances in gay rights in the early 1980s, and certainly gay presence on TV and music etc (even film), the AIDS crisis knocked that on the head long before Section 28, especially with all the misinformation that was given to the public at the time, with papers claiming you could catch it from coffee cups and other ludicrous ideas. Homosexuality would be unpopular anyway in that period, whether or not Section 28 existed - although I obviously wish it never had. Either way, as a 14 year old when it came into being, I don't think I would have been more comfortable with what I was feeling at that time, one way or the other.

Again, I disagreed with most of what she did, but she did appear to know what she wanted and was determined to get there no matter what. That's either admirable or frustrating, depending on your viewpoint. Certainly friends who know my political views have been a surprised today when I said that Thatcher should be respected, but I think it's true. In the Savile scandal a few months back, female colleagues were saying they felt they couldn't report the abuse to their superiors during the 1970s because they were women and not respected - and yet Thatcher became Prime Minister.

What's more, if we look back at the last week and the last couple of years, no matter what her policies, I don't think she would have taken part in the kind of s*it-stirring that Cameron has calling people on benefits "scroungers", and so on. That's not politics, that's just vile propaganda and lies in the vast majority of cases, which has been done to deflect attention away from his policies by turning neighbour against neighbour. And Thatcher certainly wouldn't have used the Philpott case where six children were burned to death for political purposes. If nothing else, her time in office was considerably more dignified than the politics of today.

Re: Margaret Thatcher, Former UK PM, Dead At 87

Tue Apr 09, 2013 9:13 am

A friend of Augusto Pinochet and considered Nelson Mandela a terrorist.........Need I say any more?

Re: Margaret Thatcher, Former UK PM, Dead At 87

Tue Apr 09, 2013 9:16 am

jake wrote:A friend of Augusto Pinochet and considered Nelson Mandela a terrorist.........Need I say any more?


I really shouldn't do this. Like most people, I was raised that "if you haven't got anything nice to say, then don't say anything" -- especially about a dead person.

But, temptation got the better of me! :mrgreen:

phpBB [video]



Margaret Thatcher's death greeted with street parties in Brixton and Glasgow
Crowds shout 'Maggie Maggie Maggie, dead dead dead' during impromptu events


Barry Neild
guardian.co.uk, Monday 8 April 2013 15.30 EDT

People in Brixton, south London celebrate the death of Margaret Thatcher. Photograph: Danny E. Martindale/Getty Images
Several hundred people gathered in south London on Monday evening to celebrate Margaret Thatcher's death with cans of beer, pints of milk and an impromptu street disco playing the soundtrack to her years in power.

Young and old descended on Brixton, a suburb which weathered two outbreaks of rioting during the Thatcher years. Many expressed jubilation that the leader they loved to hate was no more; others spoke of frustration that her legacy lived on.

To cheers of "Maggie Maggie Maggie, dead dead dead," posters of Thatcher were held aloft as reggae basslines pounded.

Clive Barger, a 62-year-old adult education tutor, said he had turned out to mark the passing of "one of the vilest abominations of social and economic history".

He said: "It is a moment to remember. She embodied everything that was so elitist in terms of repressing people who had nothing. She presided over a class war."

Builder Phil Lewis, 47, a veteran of the 1990 poll tax riots, said he had turned out to recall the political struggles the Thatcher years had embroiled him in. "She ripped the {ar_h} out of this country and we are still suffering the consequences."

Not all those attending were old enough to remember Thatcher's time in power. Jed Miller, 21, clutching a bottle of cider, said: "She was a bit before my time, but family never had anything good to say about her."

Not all were there to celebrate. Student Ray Thornton, 28, said he was there to commemorate "victims" of Thatcherism. "It is a solemn day. It is important to remember that Thatcherism isn't dead and it is important that people get out on the street and not allow the government to whitewash what she did," he said.

Unemployed Kiki Madden scrawled "you snatched my milk and our hope" on a fence and said she felt slightly guilty taking delight in Thatcher's death, "but in the end I can't deny the fact that Thatcher made me so unhappy when I was a kid. I grew up in Liverpool and all my friends' dads lost their jobs on the docks under Thatcher. It was an awful time."


Thatcher-death-party-010_respect_version.jpg


rjm
P.S. -- I've been pretty quiet all day on the 'net, not to upset a patriotic friend I know . . .

Secondly, I am a woman, as was Thatcher, and slightly more than half the world's population. She didn't inspire me to do a damn thing! There are women, and then there are women. They come in all varieties, as do men. Being a woman does not confer any kind of nobility. It's like saying "Alan West is African-American and was a congressman, so you should respect him." Yeah, riiiigggghhhhtttt!

And, seriously, may God rest her soul. I really mean that. She was a human being.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

Re: Margaret Thatcher, Former UK PM, Dead At 87

Tue Apr 09, 2013 10:59 am

rjm wrote:
Temptation got the better of me! :mrgreen:

phpBB [video]




Here's the one you're lookin' for RJM:

phpBB [video]

Re: Margaret Thatcher, Former UK PM, Dead At 87

Tue Apr 09, 2013 11:10 am

poormadpeter wrote:I'm no apologist of Thatcher or her vision - although, to be fair, at least she had a vision, which is more than you can say for Bill and Ben in charge at the moment.

However, Thatcher couldn't have done any of the above that you name if she hadn't been voted in. And she wasn't voted in just once, but three times. The first time, perhaps the country was dazzled by the thought of a female leader. The second time, perhaps she was voted for because of the positive outcome of the Falklands War. But by the third time, she had committed most of her sins, and yet was still voted in and with a decent majority - and then the Tories were voted in again in 1992 or 1993 (can't remember which). She wasn't a dictator. Blame society in 1980s Britain as much as one individual.


The electorate [at the time] were impressed by her 'resolute' approach.

She got things done !

Unfortunately, what she 'got done' were things like the Poll Tax, the dismantling of the UK's manufacturing base & the deregulation of the financial markets.

None of these did the country's long-term prospects any good at all &, in fact, quite the reverse.

Re: Margaret Thatcher, Former UK PM, Dead At 87

Tue Apr 09, 2013 1:00 pm

poormadpeter wrote:
Suds wrote:
poormadpeter wrote:
daylon wrote:Condolensces to her family.

This statement by film director Ken Loach mirrors pretty much what I think about her, her policies and her tory pals.

"Margaret Thatcher was the most divisive and destructive Prime Minister of modern times".

"Mass Unemployment, factory closures, communities destroyed – this is her legacy. She was a fighter and her enemy was the British working class"


And she didn't like the Scots and we didn't like her.


I'm no apologist of Thatcher or her vision - although, to be fair, at least she had a vision, which is more than you can say for Bill and Ben in charge at the moment.

However, Thatcher couldn't have done any of the above that you name if she hadn't been voted in. And she wasn't voted in just once, but three times. The first time, perhaps the country was dazzled by the thought of a female leader. The second time, perhaps she was voted for because of the positive outcome of the Falklands War. But by the third time, she had committed most of her sins, and yet was still voted in and with a decent majority - and then the Tories were voted in again in 1992 or 1993 (can't remember which). She wasn't a dictator. Blame society in 1980s Britain as much as one individual.



Yes, it was the floating voter and the newly-moneyed working class people who switched their votes to her and changed party allegiances to a significant degree. The south was pretty much coloured blue the day after elections. Many working class enjoyed their 'loadsamoney' and were put off by Labour's image problems, until Tony Blair's "New Labour" finally ended the Tory hold.

She was divisive and made a lot of people angry, but, without doubt she was also a mould-breaker who probably inspired many people, especially women. I would say, along with Churchill, she dominated British politics like no other in the last 100+ years.


Yes, I think that;s true. And, of course, while many of the policies have come back to bite us in the bum (such as the right to buy council houses), they were extremely popular at the time. I remember our family thinking about it at the time - mum and dad had been in council houses for years, and the reduction you got when you bought really was massive and extremely tempting. And it was a good idea at the time, and a wonderful chance for people to own homes who would never have had that chance otherwise. The problem of course was that the money wasn't ploughed back into building new council properties, bu we didn't know that at the time.

Meanwhile, while the decision to close mines etc was deeply unpopular, so too was the miner's figurehead, Arthur Scargill. Even watching footage today of him, it's hard to sympathise with what he is saying on behalf of his workers because he was so dislikeable as a man. Should that matter? Probably not, but it does and it always will do in the TV era. Thatcher was always quite the opposite, and always kept her dignity and acted in a dignified manner. Scargill ended up representing the working classes in a manner of speaking, and acting and speaking in the way he did didn't do anyone any favours except Thatcher herself.

Of course, from a personal point of view, Section 28 was an horrific thing. However, I'm not so sure that it "ruined people's lives" or "turned people against gays" - both comments I've read today on twitter. While there had been advances in gay rights in the early 1980s, and certainly gay presence on TV and music etc (even film), the AIDS crisis knocked that on the head long before Section 28, especially with all the misinformation that was given to the public at the time, with papers claiming you could catch it from coffee cups and other ludicrous ideas. Homosexuality would be unpopular anyway in that period, whether or not Section 28 existed - although I obviously wish it never had. Either way, as a 14 year old when it came into being, I don't think I would have been more comfortable with what I was feeling at that time, one way or the other.

Again, I disagreed with most of what she did, but she did appear to know what she wanted and was determined to get there no matter what. That's either admirable or frustrating, depending on your viewpoint. Certainly friends who know my political views have been a surprised today when I said that Thatcher should be respected, but I think it's true. In the Savile scandal a few months back, female colleagues were saying they felt they couldn't report the abuse to their superiors during the 1970s because they were women and not respected - and yet Thatcher became Prime Minister.

What's more, if we look back at the last week and the last couple of years, no matter what her policies, I don't think she would have taken part in the kind of s*it-stirring that Cameron has calling people on benefits "scroungers", and so on. That's not politics, that's just vile propaganda and lies in the vast majority of cases, which has been done to deflect attention away from his policies by turning neighbour against neighbour. And Thatcher certainly wouldn't have used the Philpott case where six children were burned to death for political purposes. If nothing else, her time in office was considerably more dignified than the politics of today.


Reginald D Hunter said it with great understanding (He didn't like her but yet he admitted he also could not help liking her). From his gig last year, it''s at 4:51 onwards in this clip:

phpBB [video]

Re: Margaret Thatcher, Former UK PM, Dead At 87

Tue Apr 09, 2013 1:48 pm

There will be millions of people who will regard her as the best PM since Churchill.

She undoubtedly divided a country, many people benefitted from her policies and actions. At the same time many people suffered during her terms.
She left communities utterly decimated. Communities that have still not recovered even now. She gave no help or support to these communities, basically leaving them to rot. These communities have today the highest unemployment, highest suicide rates etc.

My family were not affected by her(I was just a boy) but I remember mines being closed and the heavy industry being damaged by her. I remember friends who's father were made unemployed and the devastation and suffering it was causing. I know men who are in their 60's and 70's now, who never worked again.....there was no work nor support to help them. I know a mine surveyor who was 42 when the mine he worked at closed, all he was offered by the government was help making up his C.V. He eventually got a job 2 years later as a guide in a local musuem. That job was government sponsored and only lasted 4 months, after that he was back on the scrapheap, landing employment for a few months then being unemployed again.

If she had offered help and support to the areas she decimated, she may have been thought more highly of today. Millions were adversley affected by her policies and suffered hugely, unless you have witnessed what she did to these communities,it is easy to just to gloss over it...."because I wasn't affected" . Just ask voters in Scotland, Liverpool, NE England, Wales, Manchester,Yorkshire and many other areas of the UK where she had an impact. Where the majority of responses will be (very)negative.
This a PM who was last in power almost 25 years ago and there are strong feelings towards her, both negative and positive. She had an impact, that's for sure.
To me she has a helluva lot to answer for, the untold suffering she caused to millions of people.

Re: Margaret Thatcher, Former UK PM, Dead At 87

Tue Apr 09, 2013 2:56 pm

Mike C wrote:God love her! As she so eloquently said long ago, "The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money."


The problem with people like Thatcher is that they live off poor people's money and their comes a time when the poor people are so poor, they are bleeded dry.
Like the people in Brixton said: Ding dong the witch is dead.

By the way, has anybody ever noticed that most nice people die young while people like Thatcher grow very old?

Re: Margaret Thatcher, Former UK PM, Dead At 87

Tue Apr 09, 2013 3:10 pm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-22066540

About the taboo of speaking ill of the dead.

Re: Margaret Thatcher, Former UK PM, Dead At 87

Tue Apr 09, 2013 3:24 pm

Swingin-Little-Guitar-Man wrote:
rjm wrote:
Temptation got the better of me! :mrgreen:

phpBB [video]




Here's the one you're lookin' for RJM:

phpBB [video]


Love, loathe or impartial; the celebration of another person's death is pretty abhorrent.

Re: Margaret Thatcher, Former UK PM, Dead At 87

Tue Apr 09, 2013 3:30 pm

elvisalisellers wrote:Love, loathe or impartial; the celebration of another persons death is pretty abhorrent.


It has been done through the ages.
Soldiers being happy they killed the soldiers of "the enemy".
Religious idiots being happy that planes were flown into buildings. Or bombs exploded at subway stations.
Thatcher was an enemy of the poor so the poor celebrating her death is nothing special.

Re: Margaret Thatcher, Former UK PM, Dead At 87

Tue Apr 09, 2013 3:36 pm

daylon wrote:There will be millions of people who will regard her as the best PM since Churchill.

She undoubtedly divided a country, many people benefitted from her policies and actions. At the same time many people suffered during her terms.
She left communities utterly decimated. Communities that have still not recovered even now. She gave no help or support to these communities, basically leaving them to rot. These communities have today the highest unemployment, highest suicide rates etc.

My family were not affected by her(I was just a boy) but I remember mines being closed and the heavy industry being damaged by her. I remember friends who's father were made unemployed and the devastation and suffering it was causing. I know men who are in their 60's and 70's now, who never worked again.....there was no work nor support to help them. I know a mine surveyor who was 42 when the mine he worked at closed, all he was offered by the government was help making up his C.V. He eventually got a job 2 years later as a guide in a local musuem. That job was government sponsored and only lasted 4 months, after that he was back on the scrapheap, landing employment for a few months then being unemployed again.

If she had offered help and support to the areas she decimated, she may have been thought more highly of today. Millions were adversley affected by her policies and suffered hugely, unless you have witnessed what she did to these communities,it is easy to just to gloss over it...."because I wasn't affected" . Just ask voters in Scotland, Liverpool, NE England, Wales, Manchester,Yorkshire and many other areas of the UK where she had an impact. Where the majority of responses will be (very)negative.
This a PM who was last in power almost 25 years ago and there are strong feelings towards her, both negative and positive. She had an impact, that's for sure.
To me she has a helluva lot to answer for, the untold suffering she caused to millions of people.


Yes, my Dad was affected in that way and never again had a steady job either. And I agree with what you say for the most part - but what does it show about Britain that people saw this happening, and yet voted her back in again in 1987 - very much in the same way that people can see what the current government are doing regarding benefits etc and yet seemingly supporting that according to opinion polls out at the weekend. I'm not sure the same lies were around back in the 80s (can't remember), but people are falling for them completely today, it seems.

Re: Margaret Thatcher, Former UK PM, Dead At 87

Tue Apr 09, 2013 3:43 pm

zolderopruiming1 wrote:
elvisalisellers wrote:Love, loathe or impartial; the celebration of another persons death is pretty abhorrent.


It has been done through the ages.
Soldiers being happy they killed the soldiers of "the enemy".
Religious idiots being happy that planes were flown into buildings. Or bombs exploded at subway stations.
Thatcher was an enemy of the poor so the poor celebrating her death is nothing special.


Yes, but your comments don't add up. In both of your examples, the deaths being celebrated were intended to have an immediate effect. Thatcher stopped being Prime Minister 23 years ago. Had she died in 1989, then yes celebrating her death in the way we have seen yesterday would probably make sense. But i see little point in celebrating the death of a sad, frail Thatcher of 87 who hadn't hadn't been in politics in two decades. If anything, those who suffered at her hands would have been rubbing their hands with glee more because she was old and suffering from dementia (surely the worst punishment possible for a highly intelligent human being?) than her being released from that punishment.

Sadly, the "I'm glad she's dead" approach which we have seen does nothing for the people affected by Thatcher or being affected by Cameron today - it just makes them come across as callous kn*bs. The problem with our politics at the moment is that we don't have effective opposition, and the same things can be said about these kinds of comments. If, as an opponent to someone, the best you can say is "I'm glad she's dead" then you're really not going to win over anyone to your way of thinking and your views.

Re: Margaret Thatcher, Former UK PM, Dead At 87

Tue Apr 09, 2013 4:33 pm

poormadpeter wrote:
daylon wrote:There will be millions of people who will regard her as the best PM since Churchill.

She undoubtedly divided a country, many people benefitted from her policies and actions. At the same time many people suffered during her terms.
She left communities utterly decimated. Communities that have still not recovered even now. She gave no help or support to these communities, basically leaving them to rot. These communities have today the highest unemployment, highest suicide rates etc.

My family were not affected by her(I was just a boy) but I remember mines being closed and the heavy industry being damaged by her. I remember friends who's father were made unemployed and the devastation and suffering it was causing. I know men who are in their 60's and 70's now, who never worked again.....there was no work nor support to help them. I know a mine surveyor who was 42 when the mine he worked at closed, all he was offered by the government was help making up his C.V. He eventually got a job 2 years later as a guide in a local musuem. That job was government sponsored and only lasted 4 months, after that he was back on the scrapheap, landing employment for a few months then being unemployed again.

If she had offered help and support to the areas she decimated, she may have been thought more highly of today. Millions were adversley affected by her policies and suffered hugely, unless you have witnessed what she did to these communities,it is easy to just to gloss over it...."because I wasn't affected" . Just ask voters in Scotland, Liverpool, NE England, Wales, Manchester,Yorkshire and many other areas of the UK where she had an impact. Where the majority of responses will be (very)negative.
This a PM who was last in power almost 25 years ago and there are strong feelings towards her, both negative and positive. She had an impact, that's for sure.
To me she has a helluva lot to answer for, the untold suffering she caused to millions of people.


Yes, my Dad was affected in that way and never again had a steady job either. And I agree with what you say for the most part - but what does it show about Britain that people saw this happening, and yet voted her back in again in 1987 - very much in the same way that people can see what the current government are doing regarding benefits etc and yet seemingly supporting that according to opinion polls out at the weekend. I'm not sure the same lies were around back in the 80s (can't remember), but people are falling for them completely today, it seems.


Yes. In the 1987 election(and the previous ones) around 750k voted for the Conservative party in Scotland. In the 2010 election it had dropped to around 300k. So the electorate must have been happy with her. Whether they turned a blind eye or just didn't care what she was doing because they were doing fine, I don't know.

As for the current government. I think Cameron is quite weak, he is todying up too much to the wishes of the right in his party. Cameron is more centre than right. Tony Blair and Cameron are probably not that far apart in political views. (Blair could have been a tory)

I have a feeling the tories will win the next election outright, mainly due to a completely useless Labour opposition and leader. No harm against Ed Milliband and I'm sure he is a decent and clever guy but he makes Cameron look like Churchill . He's a very weak leader. Unless Labour finds someone to challenge the tories and pick them apart, the next term is when you will see what the tories are really about. They are being curtailed just now.
Even worse for the rest of the UK, if Scotland votes to leave the union next year, England and Wales will forever be ruled by a conservative government, unless they change the voting system.

(off topic but where is greystoke, I enjoyed his posts, anyone know?)

Re: Margaret Thatcher, Former UK PM, Dead At 87

Tue Apr 09, 2013 4:33 pm

One of the greatest British politicans ever. A remarkable woman who stuck by her ideals.

R.I.P.

Brian :(

Re: Margaret Thatcher, Former UK PM, Dead At 87

Tue Apr 09, 2013 4:38 pm

poormadpeter wrote:Sadly, the "I'm glad she's dead" approach which we have seen does nothing for the people affected by Thatcher or being affected by Cameron today - it just makes them come across as callous kn*bs. The problem with our politics at the moment is that we don't have effective opposition, and the same things can be said about these kinds of comments. If, as an opponent to someone, the best you can say is "I'm glad she's dead" then you're really not going to win over anyone to your way of thinking and your views.


I guess I am one of those "callous kn*bs" you refer to. I guess that you werent much affected by her 11 years in power but those that lived within sight of those places that experienced mass unemployment, de-industrialisation, and the effects of her monetary policy on the working class. I on the other hand lived not that far away from Ravenscraig, despite high production levels and mass protests the steel mill was closed down. The closure left the towns adjacent like ghost towns. I left school at the height of the unemployment level, something that irks me until this very day, because there were no jobs, there were few if any opportunities, nada, zilch. Because of where I lived and the time I left school led to me being unemployed for 5 years through no want in trying to get a job. I saw many in the same position. At the same time, I was an avid watcher of the news since I was young, watched people in the south of the UK get rich. I watched Scotland become a test subject for the poll tax and saw the riots that ensued. I watched as the oil that was discovered in the waters of Scotland was used to gamble on the world's stock markets while few here benefited from it. And the country has went from a nation of builders and creators to a nation of salesmen. The current problems exist because of what she did back then, that was the beginning.

Personally I despise her, I despise what she stood for and this country is a better place without her. Unfortunately her legacy still exists, and watching Labour politicians make fawning comments about her...it just shows you that the country is a 1 party state now appealing to middle England. And the government are doing the exact same thing today as they did then. I wonder when people will wake up.

Re: Margaret Thatcher, Former UK PM, Dead At 87

Tue Apr 09, 2013 4:40 pm

zolderopruiming1 wrote:
Mike C wrote:God love her! As she so eloquently said long ago, "The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money."


The problem with people like Thatcher is that they live off poor people's money and their comes a time when the poor people are so poor, they are bleeded dry.
Like the people in Brixton said: Ding dong the witch is dead.

By the way, has anybody ever noticed that most nice people die young while people like Thatcher grow very old?


How exactly did she live off poor people's money? Isn't this true of any government leader who serves in office?