Karate Photo 1973 or later ?

[Vegas70]

Is this pic from 1973?

[AlohaEagle]

July 23 1973 at Kang Ree's in Memphis : http://www.elvis-collectors.com/candid-central/karate73.html

[londonflash]

Gosh, Elvis was certainly looking heavy that day.

[Vegas70]

Gosh, Elvis was certainly looking heavy that day.

Yes, that´s why I always thoght this must be 1975! But it is really 1973 .Strange. He looked so much better in thouse 1974 photos.

[drjohncarpenter]

July 23 1973 at Kang Ree's in Memphis : http://www.elvis-collectors.com/candid-central/karate73.html

I greatly doubt Elvis was taking to the mats with Kang Rhee, Bill Wallace and others on July 23, 1973.

He was in the middle of sessions at Stax Studios, taping songs on the night of July 22-23 and July 23-24.

If someone can identify which degree of black belt he has on, we may be able to get a better dating.

[paulsweeney]

July 23 1973 at Kang Ree's in Memphis : http://www.elvis-collectors.com/candid-central/karate73.html

I greatly doubt Elvis was taking to the mats with Kang Rhee, Bill Wallace and others on July 23, 1973.

He was in the middle of sessions at Stax Studios, taping songs on the night of July 22-23 and July 23-24.

If someone can identify which degree of black belt he has on, we may be able to get a better dating.

No one said he was taking to the mats. Stopping by the Rhee's studio, yes.

[drjohncarpenter]

July 23 1973 at Kang Ree's in Memphis : http://www.elvis-collectors.com/candid-central/karate73.html

I greatly doubt Elvis was taking to the mats with Kang Rhee, Bill Wallace and others on July 23, 1973.

He was in the middle of sessions at Stax Studios, taping songs on the night of July 22-23 and July 23-24.

If someone can identify which degree of black belt he has on, we may be able to get a better dating.

No one said he was taking to the mats. Stopping by the Rhee's studio, yes.

In the posted photo he appears sweaty and disheveled. It belies logic to imagine he would stop by the studio, change into his karategi and just stand there and watch. It goes against one's training. And there is no mention in any July Stax session history of Presley popping by a karate studio.

Again, knowing which degree he has on his belt will help. Dates known to fans:

4th = received 4-1971 (Ed Parker)
5th = received 2-1972 (Ed Parker)
6th = received 4-1973 (Ed Parker)
6th or 7th = received 5-1973 (Kang Rhee)
8th = received 9-1974 (Kang Rhee)

720223_Presley_5th Degree Certificate.JPG

Fifth Degree Certificate, February 23, 1972

[AlohaEagle]

Again, knowing which degree he has on his belt will help.

Waiting for a reply from Dave Hebler regarding the degree of belt

[DarrylMac]

There's anecdotal evidence from Bobby Wood that Kang Rhee was present at the July sessions, even doing a karate exhibition in the studio, and it's clear he was spending a lot of time with Elvis during that time, so it's not unrealistic that Elvis may have been at Rhee's studio earlier in the evening, then made his way over to Stax. All reports say Elvis was arriving late at the sessions, often after 11pm, so again he had plenty of time.

[paulsweeney]

There's anecdotal evidence from Bobby Wood that Kang Rhee was present at the July sessions, even doing a karate exhibition in the studio, and it's clear he was spending a lot of time with Elvis during that time, so it's not unrealistic that Elvis may have been at Rhee's studio earlier in the evening, then made his way over to Stax. All reports say Elvis was arriving late at the sessions, often after 11pm, so again he had plenty of time.

That's what I meant to say

[AlohaEagle]

Message from Dave Hebler : he's wearing a 7th degree belt looks like. 73 is probably pretty close. He made 8th deg in 74.

Can anyone see the date on the 7th degree certificate? Looks like Sept 9 '73 to me....therefore placing the date of the photo somewhere between Sept 9 '73 - Sept 16 '74.

[drjohncarpenter]

Dave Hebler is correct, Elvis is indeed wearing a black belt 7th degree:
http://kenpobelts.com/catalog/index.php

I took a look around, here are two more photos from this visit:

740900_Elvis w 7th degree belt_Kang Rhee studio_Memphis.JPG

740900_wearing 7th degree black_w Kang Rhee_Memphis.JPG

The Taekwondo (Kang Rhee) karate certificates both read 1974:

7th degree = September 9, 1974
8th degree = September 16, 1974

740900_Kang Rhee certificates.JPG

[ This seems absurd, being upgraded in a week from 7th to 8th. Perhaps one or the other is a spurious reproduction. Or Rhee had serious judgement issues. ]


These Kenpo (Ed Parker) karate certificate ID cards show:

6th degree = April 2, 1973
7th degree = August 16, 1974

730402_Elvis 6th degree black_Kenpo ID.JPG

740816_Elvis 7th degree black_Kenpo ID.JPG

[ Note: it is clear that the Rhee and Parker degrees were for different disciplines. ]


Given Presley's black belt 7th degree in the photo/s being discussed, summer 1974 seems more likely, but the puffiness in his face looks more like summer 1973.

[AlohaEagle]

Cool reply Doc, good info thanks. Yes there is does seem to be definite discrepancies regarding the date when the 7th degree certificate was issued, as you say 'Perhaps one or the other is a spurious reproduction. Or Rhee had serious judgement issues '....especially when you consider the date on the 7th degree Ed Parker Karate ID card, the dates don't tally up unfortunately. Knowing what we know now, I agree, the top photo can't be from the said date and I think you are probably correct in your assumption of it being Summer '74.

[Eivind]

The photo showing Elvis and KR standing next to the car Elvis gave Him was said to have been taken outside Stax at the said date. It's from the same day as the other Photos for sure. Not able to to find out more at the moment,but I'mpretty sure it' s been discussed before.

[Mike Eder]

My feeling is that he looked too good in the summer of 1974 for these. Those 7-4-74 shots have Elvis looking pretty fit. http://www.elvis-collectors.com/candid-central/karatejuly74.html. Actually the only other shots that may point to summer of 1974 are these, http://www.elvis-collectors.com/candid-central/redwhfans70s.html. However I refuse to accept the date printed on them. Why? Because look at the many photos up on that page from the summer of 1974. He didn't look even close to that poor otherwise. As bad as it was at times, he wasn't looking that bloated or ill even at the fall 1974 shows by comparison.
I would say 1973 towards the fall. That's the only time he looked quite that heavy before 1975.
Maybe this is the most important thing-Vernon and Dee had separated by the summer of 1974 and she is in some of those Karate studio shots.

[bripet56]

I seriously doubt the photos to be from 1974.
Elvis got his 7th degree black belt from Kang Rhee prior to the June 1973 tour as we have lots of photos showing him wearing that belt and the exact same clothes during the June/July 1973 tour.
After July 1973 we don´t see Elvis wearing his karate clothes again until early July 1974 when he started the Tennessee Karate Institute. The karate gi Elvis wore during the July 4 karate session was all black and then he made his own which were all white with red linings and matching red 7th degree black belt.

Sincerely
Brian
http://www.brian56.dk
(latest update April 8, 2013)

[drjohncarpenter]

I seriously doubt the photos to be from 1974.
Elvis got his 7th degree black belt from Kang Rhee prior to the June 1973 tour as we have lots of photos showing him wearing that belt and the exact same clothes during the June/July 1973 tour.
After July 1973 we don´t see Elvis wearing his karate clothes again until early July 1974 when he started the Tennessee Karate Institute. The karate gi Elvis wore during the July 4 karate session was all black and then he made his own which were all white with red linings and matching red 7th degree black belt.

The scant Rhee documentation lists the 7th degree as awarded September 1974, although it was likely given by the instructor shortly after the May 1973 debacle with Ed Parker in San Francisco.

http://www.elvis-collectors.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=75050&p=1146419&#p1146419

Elvis finished his tour on July 3 in Atlanta, and left to rehearse for his August 6 Vegas opening on July 31. He was at Stax from July 20 to July 24, blowing off the next day or two of scheduled sessions because of a stolen mic.

Perhaps the photos were taken between July 25 and July 30, 1973.

[Mike Eder]

That sounds better to me as far as how he looks. Obviously he slimmed down for Vegas, though he was heavier than he had been on stage at the Hilton before.

[DarrylMac]

I still see no reason to disregard the original date given. Elvis was barely able to muster any enthusiasm for recording, so I don't think the session was top of his list of priorities. Assuming his usual routine of getting up late afternoon, there's every possibility he went to Rhee's karate studio for an hour or two, especially if there were people he admired like Bill Wallace in attendance, then finishing up, getting changed and heading over to Stax for an 11ish start. Froom the evidence of those in attendance at the session, there's every choice Mr Rhee joined Elvis for his recording session after their workout.

[Eivind]

Found this on the Elvis Australia page:

"On June 4, 1973, Elvis Presley gave Kang Rhee a custom-delux Eldorado Cadillac. This was not an ordinary gift. Vernon Presley had purchased the white Cadillac, customized with the Continental rear-end and silver front-end grill, for Elvis as a gift. Elvis drove the car for his personal use ten months before bestowing the car as a gift upon Master Rhee".

And the photo's were also discussed in this thread:
http://www.elvis-collectors.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=28978

I'd say that June 4th is too early, July is most likely and august/september can't be ruled out...

Eivind

[DarrylMac]

The photo showing Elvis and KR standing next to the car Elvis gave Him was said to have been taken outside Stax at the said date. It's from the same day as the other Photos for sure. Not able to to find out more at the moment,but I'mpretty sure it' s been discussed before.

If the photo of Elvis and KR was indeed taken outside Stax, then that answers our question for sure, and backs up the the thought he went to the karate session first, then made his way to Stax. Having said that, Elvis is in bare feet, but then they did say he put on a karate exhibition at Stax with KR, so you never know.

[drjohncarpenter]

I still see no reason to disregard the original date given. Elvis was barely able to muster any enthusiasm for recording, so I don't think the session was top of his list of priorities. Assuming his usual routine of getting up late afternoon, there's every possibility he went to Rhee's karate studio for an hour or two, especially if there were people he admired like Bill Wallace in attendance, then finishing up, getting changed and heading over to Stax for an 11ish start. Froom the evidence of those in attendance at the session, there's every choice Mr Rhee joined Elvis for his recording session after their workout.

Plenty of reasons have already been given, with plenty of data to support those reasons.

The known history of Elvis' July 1973 Stax sessions offers no mention of Kang Rhee in the Stax Studios wearing his karategi, Elvis giving him a car outside the studio, or the singer doing a demonstration in the studio with Rhee. By all reports the sessions were tightly guarded and few people allowed in.

In addition, I see at least two young girls in the group photo. How many kids are practicing Taekwondo at 10pm on a Monday night?

Barring any real data, it makes more sense to conclude Elvis made his visit after he had shitcanned the sessions on July 24.

[DarrylMac]

Actually Doc, absolutely no data has been given to suggest the July 23rd date is false. We know from June tour photos the karate Gi, and belt he's wearing are right for the time. We also know beyond a shadow of a doubt that Master Rhee was in attendance at the Stax recording dates, regardless of what he may / may not have been wearing.

As for the girls, who look like they're in their early teens, there's no reason they shouldn't be up late in their Summer vacation, especially if the opportunity to meet Elvis came up.

or the singer doing a demonstration in the studio with Rhee. By all reports the sessions were tightly guarded and few people allowed in.

Here's a direct quote from Bobby Wood: "He had a Korean, or Japanese guy with him - Kang Rhee, his karate teacher. They were clowning around in the studio with guns and stuff". Also, here's a quote from Careless Love - page 503: "The only thing that seemed to engage him was a karate exhibition he put on with Kang Rhee in the studio, which after what the musicians had heard about his putting a gun through Chip Young's guitar (Carrigan had been a direct witness), didn't leave anyone in a particluarly sanguine frame of mind".

Even if the car photo isn't taken outside Stax, there's still nothing to suggest they couldn't have left the karate studio sometime after 9, got showered and changed, and headed over to Stax for 11-12 ish. It's all perfectly reasonable. The question is where the date came from initially? Paul - any ideas?

[paulsweeney]

Actually Doc, absolutely no data has been given to suggest the July 23rd date is false. We know from June tour photos the karate Gi, and belt he's wearing are right for the time. We also know beyond a shadow of a doubt that Master Rhee was in attendance at the Stax recording dates, regardless of what he may / may not have been wearing.

As for the girls, who look like they're in their early teens, there's no reason they shouldn't be up late in their Summer vacation, especially if the opportunity to meet Elvis came up.

or the singer doing a demonstration in the studio with Rhee. By all reports the sessions were tightly guarded and few people allowed in.

Here's a direct quote from Bobby Wood: "He had a Korean, or Japanese guy with him - Kang Rhee, his karate teacher. They were clowning around in the studio with guns and stuff". Also, here's a quote from Careless Love - page 503: "The only thing that seemed to engage him was a karate exhibition he put on with Kang Rhee in the studio, which after what the musicians had heard about his putting a gun through Chip Young's guitar (Carrigan had been a direct witness), didn't leave anyone in a particluarly sanguine frame of mind".

Even if the car photo isn't taken outside Stax, there's still nothing to suggest they couldn't have left the karate studio sometime after 9, got showered and changed, and headed over to Stax for 11-12 ish. It's all perfectly reasonable. The question is where the date came from initially? Paul - any ideas?

I honestly cannot remember how we/I came up with the date. I think it was Russ Howe, Bud Glass and I who put the pieces together and confirmed the date.

[DarrylMac]

I honestly cannot remember how we/I came up with the date. I think it was Russ Howe, Bud Glass and I who put the pieces together and confirmed the date.

Thanks Paul. I know Rex Martin's site also has these photos dated 23rd July, but we'll have to see what else comes up.