Off Topic Messages

Who wins at their peak - ALI or TYSON ?

MUHAMMAD ALI
9
64%
MIKE TYSON
5
36%
 
Total votes : 14

Re: Tyson on Ali

Tue Jan 22, 2013 2:31 pm

The extra rounds in a 15 bout brought out the warrior in some fights,sometimes it really came down
to which fighter reallt wanted the win.

In this "What If" fight,the more rounds Ali could put in the bank,from dancing,sticking and moving,making Might Mike miss
would have gave Ali the win. ..but hey jmo
Last edited by Elton on Fri Jan 25, 2013 10:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

Re: Tyson on Ali

Tue Jan 22, 2013 5:30 pm

But Mike could really take some hard shots too, in later years he got knocked out by lesser guys like Danny Williams (that was a surprise), but in his prime, he was a tank.
The fights with Ruddock were brutal, but he proved he could take it as well as dish it out. Ultimately Tyson destroyed himself, helped by leaches like Don King.

But nobody can touch Joe Louis and Muhammad Ali. The Brown Bomber wasn't the slow shuffling guy some make him out to be. He had a great technique and a killer punch, plus never gave up.

Re: Tyson on Ali

Tue Jan 22, 2013 7:50 pm

The difference between the Tyson of the Ruddock and Williams fights were that by the time he got in the ring with Williams he had lost his will to win.The Tyson who fought Ruddock wanted to make a point to the boxing world.Everybody said he had ducked Ruddock when he pulled out of their fight in Canada in 89',at that point Ruddock was seen as the danger man of the division and Tyson wanted show people he was still the best Heavyweight on the scene.
The Tyson who came out of prison was a illusion,he looked like Tyson but he was shot as a fighter,he freely admits that when he fought Bruno for the title he wasn't the same fighter as he was pre-prison.
By the time he got in the ring with Williams he was fighting solely for the money,which given how much of a Boxing historian Tyson is,is sad.It's sad when your idols fight on too long,you want them to recapture their past glories but deep down you know it's not going to happen.
The main difference between the declines of Ali and Tyson was that Ali's was down to father time but Tyson's was self inflicted.
Another fighter I greatly respect,Roy Jones Jr,is doing that very thing now.In his prime he was probably the best fighter I have ever seen,with skills beyond belief,but now he's getting beat by people who 10 yrs ago wouldn't have won a round against him.

Re: Tyson on Ali

Tue Jan 22, 2013 8:59 pm

Tyson getting knocked out by Williams can't be taken seriously on this discussion.

In the 1st round, Tyson twisted the ligaments in his knee and needed surgery after the fight.

The surgeon who performed the op on Tyson said he was amazed that he could even stand up for 3 more rounds, let alone fight.

Williams got very lucky that night.

Re: Tyson on Ali

Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:04 pm

TJ wrote:
elvisalisellers wrote:
TJ wrote:I was referring to the focus on Tyson's knockout defeats, which few would consider likely outcomes when Tyson was really on song.

You still don't get it.
That's the whole point of making an informed opinion [a point in which you appear to have missed all along] when evaluating and rating a boxers overall career.

No I really didn't miss that point because we were talking about prime Ali and prime Tyson, not their overall careers.

FFS, you still miss the point!

TJ wrote:...if you respect Jacob's opinion then you also respect my opinion...

Sorry, I don't.
Last edited by elvisalisellers on Wed Jan 23, 2013 6:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Re: Tyson on Ali

Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:27 pm

jacob wrote:Just found this on Youtube.I haven't watched it yet so I can't comment on it.Hope you all enjoy it.

phpBB [video]


And this;

phpBB [video]


And

phpBB [video]


I've seen these clips before, but thanks for posting, jacob.
The ESPN one is a hoot! :lol:

You may or may not have seen the one below, which has Ali briefly mentioning Tyson.
It's from the superb "Champions Forever" video from 1989.

phpBB [video]

Re: Tyson on Ali

Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:49 pm

Great post, Jacob. I agree with you about Tyson post-comeback. It's a tale so often told and seen, and still they don't learn. Money of course. Pride. Fame. Ali said so many times that he didn't want to go down the road so many broken fighters have gone, punched senseless and without much money to compensate for all the damage. He saw Joe Louis as a sad case. He wouldn't go that route. But he fooled himself, just like he fooled opponents for years. It was father time but also brain damage, which was already occuring in 1975, some interviews show his speech already slurred then. Neurologically he wasn't the same man, taking too many blows. One telling scene, that will always stick in my mind is that in which Holmes slaps him (pre-fight). Holmes felt this wasn't the same Ali, he wouldn't have gotten away with that years before, if he could have touched him at all. Ali slurred ".. you slapped me... ?" For me, that was more telling than that whole terrible slaughter.

The best fighter I saw on film was Sugar Ray Robinson. He too, fought beyond his prime. And he was an intelligent man, too, the piece he wrote for G.O.A.T. about Ali is very well-written and worthwile.

Re: Tyson on Ali

Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:56 pm

If anyone believes that a prime Tyson wouldn't last 3 rounds with a prime Ali is totally deluded.

There is not one fight Tyson had between 85-88 where he looked like losing, never mind in 3 rounds.

I don't see Ali knocking Tyson out or stopping him inside 3 rounds, that's just crazy talk.

And i base that judgement on a prime Tyson being as good ( or even better) as Frazier or Norton.

Re: Tyson on Ali

Wed Jan 23, 2013 1:51 am

elvisalisellers wrote:Here, in case you missed it:

elvisalisellers wrote:Who wins at their peak


before anwering the question, we should find a way to define and/or agree on tyson´s and ali´s peak years.

1986 to 1989 are tyson´s prime years to me.

ali´s peak we never saw. therefore i would take the years, that were the closest to his career break: 1967 and 1970/1971.

can we all agree on that?

Re: Tyson on Ali

Wed Jan 23, 2013 6:27 pm

a prime Tyson wouldn't last 3 rounds with a prime Ali


Who believes that here?

Ali always was a long distance boxer. If he saw an opportunity to end it quickly, he did, but even in his 60s prime he went the distance with Chuvalo, Patterson, Terrell...
Ali was never knocked out. He only ever gave up, or rather his corner did (Dundee fought with Bundini over it) during the Holmes fight, but never ever knocked out.
Tyson did get knocked out a few times, and once in his prime.

Hey, but that doesn't take away from the fact that he was a great fighter. But better guidance after the death of his trainer would have gained him more respect.

Re: Tyson on Ali

Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:50 pm

James27 wrote:
a prime Tyson wouldn't last 3 rounds with a prime Ali


Who believes that here?

Ali always was a long distance boxer. If he saw an opportunity to end it quickly, he did, but even in his 60s prime he went the distance with Chuvalo, Patterson, Terrell...
Ali was never knocked out. He only ever gave up, or rather his corner did (Dundee fought with Bundini over it) during the Holmes fight, but never ever knocked out.
Tyson did get knocked out a few times, and once in his prime.

Hey, but that doesn't take away from the fact that he was a great fighter. But better guidance after the death of his trainer would have gained him more respect.


Tyson was past his prime when he fought Douglas.

By that time he had totally lost the desire to fight, he got floored whilst taking part in a sparring contest and the night before he lost that fight he was having sex with a number of Asian women in his hotel room.

The deaths of Cus and Jim Jacobs, sacking Rooney and joining up with Don King was the start of his downfall.

Re: Tyson on Ali

Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:01 pm

Bodie wrote:
James27 wrote:
a prime Tyson wouldn't last 3 rounds with a prime Ali


Who believes that here?

Ali always was a long distance boxer. If he saw an opportunity to end it quickly, he did, but even in his 60s prime he went the distance with Chuvalo, Patterson, Terrell...
Ali was never knocked out. He only ever gave up, or rather his corner did (Dundee fought with Bundini over it) during the Holmes fight, but never ever knocked out.
Tyson did get knocked out a few times, and once in his prime.

Hey, but that doesn't take away from the fact that he was a great fighter. But better guidance after the death of his trainer would have gained him more respect.


Tyson was past his prime when he fought Douglas.

By that time he had totally lost the desire to fight, he got floored whilst taking part in a sparring contest and the night before he lost that fight he was having sex with a number of Asian women in his hotel room.

The deaths of Cus and Jim Jacobs, sacking Rooney and joining up with Don King was the start of his downfall.


I know, but still I wouldn't call that period past his prime, yet. He did knock Douglas down. He was sloppy, uninterested, yes, but no way that he was past his prime. He just got lazy mentally, got used to always being succesful and he let his guard down, lost his killer instinct. Never quite got it back like he used to have it. Physically, there was no reason for this, it was more of a mental thing, he degenerated mentally. He got into partying, drugs, hookers, all the wrong things for a fighter. Don't forget Douglas also had nothing to loose that night, what could have been worse than what he was going through that night, with the sad loss he had to endure? That nothing-to-lose feeling gave him strength and perseverance. I take nothing away from Douglas, he did beat Mike fair and square, prime or no prime.

Re: Tyson on Ali

Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:16 pm

James27 wrote:
Bodie wrote:
James27 wrote:
a prime Tyson wouldn't last 3 rounds with a prime Ali


Who believes that here?

Ali always was a long distance boxer. If he saw an opportunity to end it quickly, he did, but even in his 60s prime he went the distance with Chuvalo, Patterson, Terrell...
Ali was never knocked out. He only ever gave up, or rather his corner did (Dundee fought with Bundini over it) during the Holmes fight, but never ever knocked out.
Tyson did get knocked out a few times, and once in his prime.

Hey, but that doesn't take away from the fact that he was a great fighter. But better guidance after the death of his trainer would have gained him more respect.


Tyson was past his prime when he fought Douglas.

By that time he had totally lost the desire to fight, he got floored whilst taking part in a sparring contest and the night before he lost that fight he was having sex with a number of Asian women in his hotel room.

The deaths of Cus and Jim Jacobs, sacking Rooney and joining up with Don King was the start of his downfall.


I know, but still I wouldn't call that period past his prime, yet. He did knock Douglas down. He was sloppy, uninterested, yes, but no way that he was past his prime. He just got lazy mentally, got used to always being succesful and he let his guard down, lost his killer instinct. Never quite got it back like he used to have it. Physically, there was no reason for this, it was more of a mental thing, he degenerated mentally. He got into partying, drugs, hookers, all the wrong things for a fighter. Don't forget Douglas also had nothing to loose that night, what could have been worse than what he was going through that night, with the sad loss he had to endure? That nothing-to-lose feeling gave him strength and perseverance. I take nothing away from Douglas, he did beat Mike fair and square, prime or no prime.


I quite agree, Douglas fought a great fight but if Tyson was in the same mental condition as he was when he fought Berbick then Douglas would have lost.
Tyson got caught by more punches in that fight than all his other fights and was just getting beaten up and still managed to put Douglas on the canvas for a 9 count.
Once Tyson lost his peekaboo technique he was so easy to hit and became so beatable.
As i said in an previous post, his defence style (from 85-88) was one skill he had that is so overlooked and his opponents found it very difficult to hit him.

Re: Tyson on Ali

Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:44 pm

Bodie wrote:
James27 wrote:
Bodie wrote:
James27 wrote:
a prime Tyson wouldn't last 3 rounds with a prime Ali


Who believes that here?

Ali always was a long distance boxer. If he saw an opportunity to end it quickly, he did, but even in his 60s prime he went the distance with Chuvalo, Patterson, Terrell...
Ali was never knocked out. He only ever gave up, or rather his corner did (Dundee fought with Bundini over it) during the Holmes fight, but never ever knocked out.
Tyson did get knocked out a few times, and once in his prime.

Hey, but that doesn't take away from the fact that he was a great fighter. But better guidance after the death of his trainer would have gained him more respect.


Tyson was past his prime when he fought Douglas.

By that time he had totally lost the desire to fight, he got floored whilst taking part in a sparring contest and the night before he lost that fight he was having sex with a number of Asian women in his hotel room.

The deaths of Cus and Jim Jacobs, sacking Rooney and joining up with Don King was the start of his downfall.


I know, but still I wouldn't call that period past his prime, yet. He did knock Douglas down. He was sloppy, uninterested, yes, but no way that he was past his prime. He just got lazy mentally, got used to always being succesful and he let his guard down, lost his killer instinct. Never quite got it back like he used to have it. Physically, there was no reason for this, it was more of a mental thing, he degenerated mentally. He got into partying, drugs, hookers, all the wrong things for a fighter. Don't forget Douglas also had nothing to loose that night, what could have been worse than what he was going through that night, with the sad loss he had to endure? That nothing-to-lose feeling gave him strength and perseverance. I take nothing away from Douglas, he did beat Mike fair and square, prime or no prime.


I quite agree, Douglas fought a great fight but if Tyson was in the same mental condition as he was when he fought Berbick then Douglas would have lost.
Tyson got caught by more punches in that fight than all his other fights and was just getting beaten up and still managed to put Douglas on the canvas for a 9 count.
Once Tyson lost his peekaboo technique he was so easy to hit and became so beatable.
As i said in an previous post, his defence style (from 85-88) was one skill he had that is so overlooked and his opponents found it very difficult to hit him.


Very true! For a few years he really WAS Kid Dynamite. Ali himself said it and he meant it, during the taping of the Arsenio Hall show: "this man is great", pointing to Tyson.
But the attendance was enough testament to this: Tyson was entertainment. I don't think the sport has seen as exciting a fighter in the HW ranks since Tyson.
In more ways than one he reminded me of a young Dempsey, except that he learned from all that came before and improved on it. Exciting fighter, explosive, charismatic.

Re: Tyson on Ali

Wed May 29, 2013 12:42 am

This thread is worthy of a bump in view of the transparent posts made by the member going by the name of "Bodie" here > viewtopic.php?f=2&t=76889&view=unread#p1172620

Re: Tyson on Ali

Wed May 29, 2013 1:14 am

elvisalisellers wrote:This thread is worthy of a bump in view of the transparent posts made by the member going by the name of "Bodie" here > viewtopic.php?f=2&t=76889&view=unread#p1172620


Only because you haven't got a response to my other reply when you claimed my posts were prejudiced and i asked you to explain why you think that they are.

I'm still waiting.
Last edited by Bodie on Wed May 29, 2013 1:30 am, edited 2 times in total.

Re: Tyson on Ali

Wed May 29, 2013 1:28 am

Bodie wrote:
elvisalisellers wrote:This thread is worthy of a bump in view of the transparent posts made by the member going by the name of "Bodie" here > viewtopic.php?f=2&t=76889&view=unread#p1172620


Only because you haven't got a response to my other reply when you claimed my posts were prejudiced and i asked you to explain why you think that they are.

No, it's for all to see your agenda, that I and a few others figured out months ago.

Re: Tyson on Ali

Wed May 29, 2013 1:31 am

elvisalisellers wrote:
Bodie wrote:
elvisalisellers wrote:This thread is worthy of a bump in view of the transparent posts made by the member going by the name of "Bodie" here > viewtopic.php?f=2&t=76889&view=unread#p1172620


Only because you haven't got a response to my other reply when you claimed my posts were prejudiced and i asked you to explain why you think that they are.

No, it's for all to see your agenda, that I and a few others figured out months ago.


Can't you respond to my last reply in the 'Mike Tyson-Howard Stern' topic then?

Still waiting.