Tyson on Ali

http://youtu.be/1mUMw9_9wWM

Ali's celebrity Roast

It's fairly ironic that some people are adamant that Tyson would have beaten a prime Ali ...

Read again. No one has said that Tyson would definitely beat Ali. Some just think it's impossible to be sure, while others won't entertain the possibility that a prime Tyson would stand a chance.

And there's really no point in clouding the issue with talk of Tyson's later performances. He simply wasn't the same guy.

It's fairly ironic that some people are adamant that Tyson would have beaten a prime Ali when Tyson's penultimate fight was a 4th round KO loss against one of the worst British heavyweights in history. To my knowledge, 'William's Hammer' is an uncommon term in the boxing world.

Im not saying Tyson would have beaten Ali, all im saying is i give him a great chance of causing an upset in the early rounds.

As for the Tyson/Williams fight, watch the fight and you see in the 1st round, Tyson suffered a complex tear on the lateral meniscus in his left knee and needed surgery after the fight.

The surgeon who did the operation on Mike said afterwards he was amazed that Tyson had carried on boxing for 3-4 rounds afterwards.

Tyson's manager Shelley Finkel added: "It explains a lot.

"Once he lost the ability to pivot, turn, or move laterally, much less put pressure on his left leg, he lost the ability to throw any more meaningful right hands which had been so effective up to the point of the injury."

Danny Williams got very lucky that night.

When Tyson fought Lewis well respected boxing journalist Colin Hart of The Sun newspaper stated "Tyson remains the most dangerous 3 round fighter on the planet, and I expect him to have enough left in the tank to complete the job within that timeframe". So, on that Bodie I agree, however, the same was expected when Ali fought Foreman with many actually fearing for Ali's health. Tyson was one of the greats but fought in a largely poor era.

When Tyson fought Lewis well respected boxing journalist Colin Hart of The Sun newspaper stated "Tyson remains the most dangerous 3 round fighter on the planet, and I expect him to have enough left in the tank to complete the job within that timeframe". So, on that Bodie I agree, however, the same was expected when Ali fought Foreman with many actually fearing for Ali's health. Tyson was one of the greats but fought in a largely poor era.

I agree.

We really didn't get the chance to see the best of Tyson, once he lost Cus and Jim Jacobs, sacked Rooney, got involved with Don King, he wasn't the same fighter.

Tyson put in some great performances when he first became champion, not just who he beat but how he beat them.

He destroyed Berbick in two rounds, dominated Pinklon Thomas, totally outboxed the previously undefeated Tony Tucker, beat up the previously undefeated Tyrell Biggs, Knocked out Larry Holmes ( not even a peak Holyfield did that, 4 years later) knocked out previously undefeated Michael Spinks in 90secs.

Tyson's best years were 1986-88 and it would have been interesting to see him fight a peak Larry Holmes, Witherspoon, Bowe or Holyfield.

It's fairly ironic that some people are adamant that Tyson would have beaten a prime Ali when Tyson's penultimate fight was a 4th round KO loss against one of the worst British heavyweights in history. To my knowledge, 'William's Hammer' is an uncommon term in the boxing world.

Im not saying Tyson would have beaten Ali, all im saying is i give him a great chance of causing an upset in the early rounds.

As for the Tyson/Williams fight, watch the fight and you see in the 1st round, Tyson suffered a complex tear on the lateral meniscus in his left knee and needed surgery after the fight.

The surgeon who did the operation on Mike said afterwards he was amazed that Tyson had carried on boxing for 3-4 rounds afterwards.

Tyson's manager Shelley Finkel added: "It explains a lot.

"Once he lost the ability to pivot, turn, or move laterally, much less put pressure on his left leg, he lost the ability to throw any more meaningful right hands which had been so effective up to the point of the injury."

Danny Williams got very lucky that night.

All these excuses you make for Tyson, and yet you're the first to make ignorant and demeaning remarks about Ali, that have no foundation whatsoever in the real world.

Let me remind you of a few:


"Tyson would be favourite to knock out Ali in the early rounds."
History, unfortunately is not on your side.
Muhammad Ali - unlike Mike Tyson - was never countered out, let alone in the early rounds.

"I think a prime Foreman would have had a better chance of beating a prime Tyson than a
prime Ali."
Peak Foreman loved it when boxers fought on the inside against him, but that doesn't automatically favour him over Ali as having a better chance of beating Tyson.
Ali had far more in his locker than George ever had.

"The second Ali/Frazier fight, Ali didn't dominate it."
He did. It was a non-event.

"What is not mentioned was the illegal use of smelling salts that Dundee used on Ali."
Angelo Dundee did no such thing.

"If YOU study the fight, you will see Wepner punch Ali in the ribs and he go down regardless if Ali is going backwards. Its an official knockdown."
Total bullshit, as I've already pointed out.

"Yes, Ali came back and won the fight in the next round due to the fact Cooper was cut and the torn glove Dundee made bigger was a big help."
If you count the extra 6 seconds, then yes, it was a massive help.

"Ali got knocked down by 14 stone Henry Cooper a year before he beat Liston for the World Title and Ali was all over the place when he got to his feet, only being saved by the bell.
If Tyson would have caught him with a punch like that, Ali wouldn't have even got off the canvas."
Once again, you exaggerate the facts to suit your agenda.

Did Henry catch him with a great left hook? Yes.
Was Ali disorientated? Definitely not.

Did Ali then go on to give Cooper a savage beating in the next round? Yes.
But you fail to mention this.

As far as Ali not getting up off the canvas if Tyson had hit him; yet again you are wilfully ignoring Ali's exceptional warrior spirit.

Let's take a look each fighters record when hitting the canvas:

ALI: KNOCKED DOWN 3 TIMES [4 IT YOU WANT TO COUNT YOUR HERO WEPNER'S FOOT STAMP].
EVERY TIME HE GOT UP - WINNING ALL BUT ONE OF THEM - GOING THE DISTANCE EACH TIME.

TYSON: KNOCKED DOWN 4 TIMES [PLUS A DQ WHEN LOSING].
EVERY TIME HE LOST - FAILING TO GET UP 3 TIMES - NOT GOING THE DISTANCE EACH TIME.


I rest my case.

I am one of the biggest Ali fans in the world.

But to say that Mike Tyson wouldn't stand a chance to win this fight is crazy.

When Mike Tyson was in his prime and handled by the right people (Cus, Jim Jacobs, Rooney) he would definately have a chance to beat Ali or anybody in boxing history.

I think Ali was the greatest of all time but a young hungry Tyson when he trained properly with the one punch knock out power in BOTH hands would have a chance.

There is no two ways about it. Saying that Mike Tyson wouldn't have any chance to win this fight is ridiculous!

I would be sitting on the edge of my seat rooting for Ali but I would be afraid for him if Mike landed one of his uppercuts, left hooks or big right hands.

Mitch

Now we've all started fighting
Ali was a great fighter,history has proven that,he's the measuring bar that we not only judge the heavyweights, but all fighters.Tyson was also a great fighter but somewhere along the way he couldn't do what Cus told him he would have to which was to "control his emotions."
A fight between them would have been great,can you imagine the build up! I also think they would have been evenly matched,Ali was fast with his hands,Tyson was great at slipping punches and not getting hit,Ali was fast on his feet,Tyson was good at cutting down the ring.
Tyson was certainly a lot better than Foreman,Norton and Frazier and I think if he had fought them he would have also beaten them and maybe more convincingly than Ali.
So regardless what people think of Tyson and his abilities the fact that people wonder who would have won a fight between them acknowledges that Tyson was a great fighter.

It's fairly ironic that some people are adamant that Tyson would have beaten a prime Ali when Tyson's penultimate fight was a 4th round KO loss against one of the worst British heavyweights in history. To my knowledge, 'William's Hammer' is an uncommon term in the boxing world.

Im not saying Tyson would have beaten Ali, all im saying is i give him a great chance of causing an upset in the early rounds.

As for the Tyson/Williams fight, watch the fight and you see in the 1st round, Tyson suffered a complex tear on the lateral meniscus in his left knee and needed surgery after the fight.

The surgeon who did the operation on Mike said afterwards he was amazed that Tyson had carried on boxing for 3-4 rounds afterwards.

Tyson's manager Shelley Finkel added: "It explains a lot.

"Once he lost the ability to pivot, turn, or move laterally, much less put pressure on his left leg, he lost the ability to throw any more meaningful right hands which had been so effective up to the point of the injury."

Danny Williams got very lucky that night.

All these excuses you make for Tyson, and yet you're the first to make ignorant and demeaning remarks about Ali, that have no foundation whatsoever in the real world.

Let me remind you of a few:


"Tyson would be favourite to knock out Ali in the early rounds."
History, unfortunately is not on your side.
Muhammad Ali - unlike Mike Tyson - was never countered out, let alone in the early rounds.

"I think a prime Foreman would have had a better chance of beating a prime Tyson than a
prime Ali."
Peak Foreman loved it when boxers fought on the inside against him, but that doesn't automatically favour him over Ali as having a better chance of beating Tyson.
Ali had far more in his locker than George ever had.

"The second Ali/Frazier fight, Ali didn't dominate it."
He did. It was a non-event.

"What is not mentioned was the illegal use of smelling salts that Dundee used on Ali."
Angelo Dundee did no such thing.

"If YOU study the fight, you will see Wepner punch Ali in the ribs and he go down regardless if Ali is going backwards. Its an official knockdown."
Total bullshit, as I've already pointed out.

"Yes, Ali came back and won the fight in the next round due to the fact Cooper was cut and the torn glove Dundee made bigger was a big help."
If you count the extra 6 seconds, then yes, it was a massive help.

"Ali got knocked down by 14 stone Henry Cooper a year before he beat Liston for the World Title and Ali was all over the place when he got to his feet, only being saved by the bell.
If Tyson would have caught him with a punch like that, Ali wouldn't have even got off the canvas."
Once again, you exaggerate the facts to suit your agenda.

Did Henry catch him with a great left hook? Yes.
Was Ali disorientated? Definitely not.

Did Ali then go on to give Cooper a savage beating in the next round? Yes.
But you fail to mention this.

As far as Ali not getting up off the canvas if Tyson had hit him; yet again you are wilfully ignoring Ali's exceptional warrior spirit.

Let's take a look each fighters record when hitting the canvas:

ALI: KNOCKED DOWN 3 TIMES [4 IT YOU WANT TO COUNT YOUR HERO WEPNER'S FOOT STAMP].
EVERY TIME HE GOT UP - WINNING ALL BUT ONE OF THEM - GOING THE DISTANCE EACH TIME.

TYSON: KNOCKED DOWN 4 TIMES [PLUS A DQ WHEN LOSING].
EVERY TIME HE LOST - FAILING TO GET UP 3 TIMES - NOT GOING THE DISTANCE EACH TIME.


I rest my case.

I never said Tyson was better than Ali.
I never said Tyson would have beaten Ali.
I never said Tyson would knock out Ali in the early rounds.
The reason i said that a prime Foreman would have a better chance of beating a prime Tyson cause of what he did to Frazier. Frazier was very similar to Tyson which is why i think a prime Tyson would have troubled Ali, if they had met.
The 2nd Ali/Frazier fight was NOT a non-event, it was for the NABF Heavyweight Title.
I stand corrected about Dundee using smelling salts of Ali's fight with Cooper, it was another cornerman who did it. But still totally illegal.
The Ali knockdown by Wepner WAS an official knockdown, do some proper research about the rules of boxing and you will realise this.
The extra 6 seconds that Ali got in the first Cooper fight didn't help Ali but the torn glove did as it cut Coopers face more which is why the fight was stopped. Totally illegal again. (if a cornerman did that in today's boxing they would have been banned).
Ali stumbled back to his corner after Cooper knocked him down and while he was in his corner, Ali stood up cause he was disorientated.Watch the fight and see for yourself.
With the help of a torn glove, Ali did come back and cut Coopers face even more for the ref to stop the fight.

Lastly, i have never said ignorant and demeaning remarks about Ali, just used something that you haven't used, common sense. In fact, i have said that Ali is the greatest Heavyweight of all time with Joe Louis a close second.

I have never predicted the outcome of a Prime Ali/Prime Tyson fight but you obviously have, which as i have said, is impossible but anyone with any boxing knowledge knows that.

"Yes, Ali came back and won the fight in the next round due to the fact Cooper was cut and the torn glove Dundee made bigger was a big help."
If you count the extra 6 seconds, then yes, it was a massive help.

It wasn't six seconds, it was more like three.

First round of Ali vs. Foreman.

Eight round.

(Myth of the Foreman fight is that he just laid on the ropes the whole fight. Wrong.)

Oh and here is a past his prime Ali taking on a tough puncher - a guy that Ali himself said was the hardest guy that ever hit him.

I am one of the biggest Ali fans in the world.

But to say that Mike Tyson wouldn't stand a chance to win this fight is crazy.

When Mike Tyson was in his prime and handled by the right people (Cus, Jim Jacobs, Rooney) he would definately have a chance to beat Ali or anybody in boxing history.

I think Ali was the greatest of all time but a young hungry Tyson when he trained properly with the one punch knock out power in BOTH hands would have a chance.

There is no two ways about it. Saying that Mike Tyson wouldn't have any chance to win this fight is ridiculous!

I would be sitting on the edge of my seat rooting for Ali but I would be afraid for him if Mike landed one of his uppercuts, left hooks or big right hands.

Mitch

Totally agree with you Mitch.

This is what i have been posting from the start but one member don't get it.

I've got to hand it to you "Bodie", you are consistent with your ramblings.

The 2nd Ali/Frazier fight was NOT a non-event, it was for the NABF Heavyweight Title.

"Non-event" as in contrary to what you would have people believe Ali won convincingly.

The Ali knockdown by Wepner WAS an official knockdown, do some proper research about the rules of boxing and you will realise this.

Anyone with the slightest bit of knowledge about boxing can clearly see it was a false knockdown. But hey, you have fun with your agenda.

The extra 6 seconds that Ali got in the first Cooper fight didn't help Ali but the torn glove did as it cut Coopers face more which is why the fight was stopped. Totally illegal again. (if a cornerman did that in today's boxing they would have been banned).

What happened in the second fight? Was Cooper's face mashed up by another torn glove?

Lastly, i have never said ignorant and demeaning remarks about Ali, just used something that you haven't used, common sense.

Your posts - to any astute observer - tell a whole different story.

I have never predicted the outcome of a Prime Ali/Prime Tyson fight but you obviously have, which as i have said, is impossible but anyone with any boxing knowledge knows that.

Anyone with a semblance of boxing knowledge can make an educated guess of the likely outcome.

(Myth of the Foreman fight is that he just laid on the ropes the whole fight. Wrong.)

"Bodie" didn't start this myth too, did he?

(Myth of the Foreman fight is that he just laid on the ropes the whole fight. Wrong.)

"Bodie" didn't start this myth too, did he?

I don't know what your problem is with me.

All i have said from the start is that its impossible to predict the outcome to a prime Ali/Tyson fight and gave my reasons why.

Its not an insult on Ali.

Especially for "Bodie" and his unlearned followers:

"Why Muhammad Ali would beat Tyson" > https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j ... 8874,d.d2k

What is not mentioned was the illegal use of smelling salts that Dundee used on Ali to wake him up between the 4th and the 5th rounds.

With all due respect bro, Ali (or Clay) looked pretty much alert after the punch, he was even standing up. Dundee was cleaning him up - I don't think he put salt under his nose. He could have, and I can't say he didn't - but in this case I don't think they did.

(Myth of the Foreman fight is that he just laid on the ropes the whole fight. Wrong.)

"Bodie" didn't start this myth too, did he?

No.

Especially for "Bodie" and his unlearned followers:

"Why Muhammad Ali would beat Tyson" > https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j ... 8874,d.d2k

"Unlearned followers"? Quit the obnoxious crap please.

Especially for "Bodie" and his unlearned followers:

"Why Muhammad Ali would beat Tyson" > https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j ... 8874,d.d2k

"Unlearned followers"? Quit the obnoxious crap please.

You are unlearned. You got it badly wrong when calling Angelo Dundee a cheat.

And quit referring to my post as "obnoxious crap".

Especially for "Bodie" and his unlearned followers:

"Why Muhammad Ali would beat Tyson" > https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j ... 8874,d.d2k

"Unlearned followers"? Quit the obnoxious crap please.

You are unlearned. You got it badly wrong when calling Angelo Dundee a cheat.

And quit referring to my post as "obnoxious crap".

Then quit suggesting that anyone who sees things differently to you is an idiot. We aren't dealing with absolutes here. Calling someone "unlearned" simply for having a different opinion is condescending.

Tearing the glove was cheating. Not sure what was badly wrong about that. In any case, that was a side issue. The debate is about what would have happened if Ali and Tyson had fought in their primes. We can speculate, but we can't be sure.

Especially for "Bodie" and his unlearned followers:

"Why Muhammad Ali would beat Tyson" > https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j ... 8874,d.d2k

"Unlearned followers"? Quit the obnoxious crap please.

You are unlearned. You got it badly wrong when calling Angelo Dundee a cheat.

And quit referring to my post as "obnoxious crap".

Then quit suggesting that anyone who sees things differently to you is an idiot. We aren't dealing with absolutes here. Calling someone "unlearned" simply for having a different opinion is condescending.

You and a few others just don't get it, do you?

I couldn't care less if someone else favours a prime Tyson over a prime Ali.

It's when some posters spout out outlandish claims [that cannot be backed up], and spurious comments of lies and half-truths about Ali [at every opportunity] - that in all honesty would be laughed at [to put it mildly] within the serious boxing fraternity - that their views and agenda become so transparent and very tiresome.

If you're unable to see that's exactly what's been going on here, then that's your problem. But I certainly won't be sitting back.

I've too much respect for Muhammad Ali as a boxer and human being to let that happen.

I think there's some crossed wires on this thread though. Everyone has respect for Ali and not one person has questioned his greatness. You aren't the only one with respect for the man. It works both ways though. For a balanced argument about Tyson, there's not much point in concentrating on his later failings when he simply wasn't the same boxer. The question was supposed to be about both men in their prime.

Especially for "Bodie" and his unlearned followers:

"Why Muhammad Ali would beat Tyson" > https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j ... 8874,d.d2k

"Unlearned followers"? Quit the obnoxious crap please.

You are unlearned. You got it badly wrong when calling Angelo Dundee a cheat.

And quit referring to my post as "obnoxious crap".

Then quit suggesting that anyone who sees things differently to you is an idiot. We aren't dealing with absolutes here. Calling someone "unlearned" simply for having a different opinion is condescending.

You and a few others just don't get it, do you?

I couldn't care less if someone else favours a prime Tyson over a prime Ali.

It's when some posters spout out outlandish claims [that cannot be backed up], and spurious comments of lies and half-truths about Ali [at every opportunity] - that in all honesty would be laughed at [to put it mildly] within the serious boxing fraternity - that their views and agenda become so transparent and very tiresome.

If you're unable to see that's exactly what's been going on here, then that's your problem. But I certainly won't be sitting back.

I've too much respect for Muhammad Ali as a boxer and human being to let that happen.

I think its you that is the one that don't get it.

I certainly am not saying Tyson would have beaten Ali if they had met in their prime and im not taking anything away from Ali's greatness in the ring, im just giving Tyson a great chance to cause an upset in the early rounds unlike you who thinks they can predict the outcome of this 'dream fight', totally dismissing any chance Tyson would have had, which is foolish.

What part of that don't you understand?

I think there's some crossed wires on this thread though.

No crossed wires, it's as clear as day.

The question was supposed to be about both men in their prime.

Was supposed to be, until one member decided to change the goalposts with one ignorant/derogatory remark after another, to suit their agenda.

Here's but one example:

"If Tyson would have caught him with a punch like that [referring to the 1963 Cooper knockdown], Ali wouldn't have even got off the canvas."