Off Topic Messages

Who wins at their peak - ALI or TYSON ?

MUHAMMAD ALI
9
64%
MIKE TYSON
5
36%
 
Total votes : 14

Tyson on Ali

Thu Jan 10, 2013 3:08 am

Tyson's astute knowledge of the noble sport is second to none.

So when someone as exceptional a fighter as him says "Nobody beats Ali" [in his prime], you better believe it!

Truly fascinating [and humorous] clip.

phpBB [video]

Ali segment begins at 3:07


Edit: I've added a poll option on who you think would win at their respective boxing peaks.
Last edited by elvisalisellers on Sun Jan 20, 2013 3:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

Re: Tyson on Ali

Thu Jan 10, 2013 5:31 am

In the scenario the guy sets up (Tyson at 20 and Ali at 20), it's possible that Tyson wins because Ali wasn't in his prime at 20 and Tyson pretty much was. A few years down the line and I think Ali is just too slick for Tyson.

We possibly never saw either fighter reach their full potential as Tyson's demons and lack of discipline got in the way and Ali was out of the ring in the three years that just might have been his best.

Re: Tyson on Ali

Thu Jan 10, 2013 8:57 am

I don't know TJ. Ali fought all the best fighters of his generation and did such in classic manner. As much as you regret those lost years, perhaps they helped Ali fight longer and you can't argue with the results we got.

Re: Tyson on Ali

Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:34 am

I certainly wasn't questioning Ali's greatness LTB. I just meant that he might have been a superior athlete in the missing years. If nothing else, more of his peak could have been witnessed. Then again, your point that he might have burned out sooner can't be ruled out.

What isn't clear is how early Parkinson's was impacting him physically. Michael J Fox comments on how he found the Johnny B. Goode sequence far more challenging when he had to reshoot it for BTTF2. It wasn't until later that he understood that this was down to the early, subtle effects of Parkinson's. It's unlikely to have had a real impact on Ali until well into the '70s, but no way of being sure.

Re: Tyson on Ali

Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:50 am

While i like BOTH fighters,if both met in their prime and at their best boxing skills?
Ali would knock that trible tattoo to the other side of Tyson's face! but hey,jmo

Re: Tyson on Ali

Thu Jan 10, 2013 11:29 am

Elton wrote:While i like BOTH fighters,if both met in their prime and at their best boxing skills?
Ali would knock that trible tattoo to the other side of Tyson's face! but hey,jmo


Absolutely. And Tyson knows it.

As for what eventually happened? I don't think a shorter career would have prevented it.

Others met even worse fates, like Jerry Quarry.

rjm

Re: Tyson on Ali

Thu Jan 10, 2013 1:46 pm

I loved that! If anyone would know it would be Tyson!

Re: Tyson on Ali

Thu Jan 10, 2013 3:43 pm

TJ wrote:I certainly wasn't questioning Ali's greatness LTB. I just meant that he might have been a superior athlete in the missing years. If nothing else, more of his peak could have been witnessed. Then again, your point that he might have burned out sooner can't be ruled out.

What isn't clear is how early Parkinson's was impacting him physically. Michael J Fox comments on how he found the Johnny B. Goode sequence far more challenging when he had to reshoot it for BTTF2. It wasn't until later that he understood that this was down to the early, subtle effects of Parkinson's. It's unlikely to have had a real impact on Ali until well into the '70s, but no way of being sure.


Michael Parkinson interviewd Ali several times, I bought his dvd of his best interviews...and if you watch Ali's interviews in chronological order you can see the decline...very sad

Re: Tyson on Ali

Thu Jan 10, 2013 6:01 pm

TJ wrote:In the scenario the guy sets up (Tyson at 20 and Ali at 20), it's possible that Tyson wins because Ali wasn't in his prime at 20 and Tyson pretty much was. A few years down the line and I think Ali is just too slick for Tyson.

We possibly never saw either fighter reach their full potential as Tyson's demons and lack of discipline got in the way and Ali was out of the ring in the three years that just might have been his best.

You're right, a fairer comparison would be when both men were at their peak.
Remember though, Tyson suffered a huge loss to Buster Douglas in what was arguably his physical prime.
And whilst the debate will continue to rage, the Muhammad Ali of say the Cleveland Williams fight, would have been, IMO, far too skilled for any heavyweight past or present.

likethebike wrote:As much as you regret those lost years, perhaps they helped Ali fight longer and you can't argue with the results we got.

You could also argue that the [enforced] inactive lost years were a contributing factor towards Ali's later ill-health.


As a side note, I must say Tyson has grown on me in recent years. Don't get me wrong, I've always respected him as a fighter, but certainly post his retirement, he appears a much calmer and wiser individual; and for me at least, has finally turned into the really great person his achievements warranted.

And from what I gather, he is also one of the few boxers who remains in regular contact with Ali and his family.
Amen to that.

Re: Tyson on Ali

Thu Jan 10, 2013 11:59 pm

If both boxers met in their prime then Tyson would be favourite to knock out Ali in the early rounds but the longer the fight would go on then the fight would be in Ali's favour with a late stoppage or a points win.

The one thing that is over-looked with a prime Tyson is his defence.

In the 80's just before the Burbick fight and a few defences, Tyson hardly got hit cause of his peek-a-boo style which is something he stopped doing around the time of his first fight with Bruno and then things went down-hill from there and he just depended on his punching power.

The boxer that caught a prime Tyson with a cracking shot was Tony Tucker in the 1st round, a superb upper-cut that stopped Tyson in his tracks but he took it very well and went on to win the fight on points.
Tyson also had a great chin, Ali was not a one-shot puncher but his talent was wearing fighters down and he wouldn't have been able to do that with a prime Tyson in the early rounds.
Ali always had problems with short little men and a prime Tyson was so much better than a prime Frazier.
The best fight to see of a prime Tyson that lasted long enough to see what a great boxer he was is the Pinklon Thomas fight.

Re: Tyson on Ali

Fri Jan 11, 2013 2:31 am

Bodie wrote:If both boxers met in their prime then Tyson would be favourite to knock out Ali in the early rounds...

If devastating punchers of the ilk of Foreman and Shavers couldn't knock out a post-comeback Ali, then it is highly doubtful Tyson could do so against a prime Ali.

Bodie wrote:Ali was not a one-shot puncher but his talent was wearing fighters down and he wouldn't have been able to do that with a prime Tyson in the early rounds.

I have no doubt Ali would have frustrated Mike early on with his blindingly fast jabs and lateral movement.
It would probably go deep into the late rounds, until an impatient Tyson tires, and gets caught with a flood of deadly accurate and quick combinations, forcing a stoppage.

Bodie wrote:Ali always had problems with short little men and a prime Tyson was so much better than a prime Frazier.

Mmm, not sure about that.

Re: Tyson on Ali

Fri Jan 11, 2013 7:00 am

debtd1 wrote:
TJ wrote:I certainly wasn't questioning Ali's greatness LTB. I just meant that he might have been a superior athlete in the missing years. If nothing else, more of his peak could have been witnessed. Then again, your point that he might have burned out sooner can't be ruled out.

What isn't clear is how early Parkinson's was impacting him physically. Michael J Fox comments on how he found the Johnny B. Goode sequence far more challenging when he had to reshoot it for BTTF2. It wasn't until later that he understood that this was down to the early, subtle effects of Parkinson's. It's unlikely to have had a real impact on Ali until well into the '70s, but no way of being sure.


Michael Parkinson interviewd Ali several times, I bought his dvd of his best interviews...and if you watch Ali's interviews in chronological order you can see the decline...very sad


Ali never lost his wit or confidence and belief in himself, and that's because of how great a champion he really is!!!!! And even with Parkinson's, he still displayed great physical stuff!! 8)

Re: Tyson on Ali

Fri Jan 11, 2013 12:12 pm

Bodie wrote:If both boxers met in their prime then Tyson would be favourite to knock out Ali in the early rounds but the longer the fight would go on then the fight would be in Ali's favour with a late stoppage or a points win.

The one thing that is over-looked with a prime Tyson is his defence.

In the 80's just before the Burbick fight and a few defences, Tyson hardly got hit cause of his peek-a-boo style which is something he stopped doing around the time of his first fight with Bruno and then things went down-hill from there and he just depended on his punching power.

The boxer that caught a prime Tyson with a cracking shot was Tony Tucker in the 1st round, a superb upper-cut that stopped Tyson in his tracks but he took it very well and went on to win the fight on points.
Tyson also had a great chin, Ali was not a one-shot puncher but his talent was wearing fighters down and he wouldn't have been able to do that with a prime Tyson in the early rounds.
Ali always had problems with short little men and a prime Tyson was so much better than a prime Frazier.
The best fight to see of a prime Tyson that lasted long enough to see what a great boxer he was is the Pinklon Thomas fight.

Excellent post Bodie.

Re: Tyson on Ali

Fri Jan 11, 2013 3:22 pm

elvisalisellers wrote:
Bodie wrote:If both boxers met in their prime then Tyson would be favourite to knock out Ali in the early rounds...

If devastating punchers of the ilk of Foreman and Shavers couldn't knock out a post-comeback Ali, then it is highly doubtful Tyson could do so against a prime Ali.

Bodie wrote:Ali was not a one-shot puncher but his talent was wearing fighters down and he wouldn't have been able to do that with a prime Tyson in the early rounds.

I have no doubt Ali would have frustrated Mike early on with his blindingly fast jabs and lateral movement.
It would probably go deep into the late rounds, until an impatient Tyson tires, and gets caught with a flood of deadly accurate and quick combinations, forcing a stoppage.

Bodie wrote:Ali always had problems with short little men and a prime Tyson was so much better than a prime Frazier.

Mmm, not sure about that.


The difference between a prime Tyson and Foreman/Shavers was speed. Ali was great at avoiding big hitters like those guys but for a powerful little guy who could throw 4 punches in a second, Ali would have found it much more difficult to avoid and hit a prime Tyson in the early rounds.

I think a prime Foreman would have had a better chance of beating a prime Tyson than a
prime Ali.

Ali totally dominated his fight with Foreman and wore Foreman down but the fights he had with Frazier were a different matter, all 3 fights were very close.
That's because Foreman was easier to hit than Frazier, and i believe Tyson was better than Frazier for his punching power and his peekaboo style.

That said, Ali and Joe Louis were the two greatest Heavyweights of all time, no question.

Re: Tyson on Ali

Fri Jan 11, 2013 7:06 pm

Bodie wrote:...Ali would have found it much more difficult to avoid and hit a prime Tyson in the early rounds.

Seriously? A prime Ali [fighting from the outside] constantly moving whilst popping out precise and hurtful jabs?

What has hurt Tyson's legacy [unlike Ali] was his inability to beat any of the real top heavyweights post-comeback.
We also shouldn't forget that he was knocked out, stopped or quit 5 times during his career, as opposed to Ali being retired [by Dundee] just the once, against Holmes.

Bodie wrote:...the fights he had with Frazier were a different matter, all 3 fights were very close.

The second fight in the Garden, Ali pretty much dominated.

Re: Tyson on Ali

Fri Jan 11, 2013 7:48 pm

elvisalisellers wrote:
Bodie wrote:...Ali would have found it much more difficult to avoid and hit a prime Tyson in the early rounds.

Seriously? A prime Ali [fighting from the outside] constantly moving whilst popping out precise and hurtful jabs?

What has hurt Tyson's legacy [unlike Ali] was his inability to beat any of the real top heavyweights post-comeback.
We also shouldn't forget that he was knocked out, stopped or quit 5 times during his career, as opposed to Ali being retired [by Dundee] just the once, against Holmes.

Bodie wrote:...the fights he had with Frazier were a different matter, all 3 fights were very close.

The second fight in the Garden, Ali pretty much dominated.


Im on about a prime Tyson, before he got involved with Don King.

Before that he practially lived in the gym.
Its a known fact that the night before the Buster Douglas fight in Japan, Tyson was up all night with a number of Asian women.
By that time he got KO'd by Douglas, Tyson was never the same.

The second Ali/Frazier fight, Ali didn't dominate it, he won it by about 3-4 rounds, a smaller margin than when he lost to Frazier the first time.
The 3rd fight both boxers were on the verge of quitting.

Frazier did more damage to Ali than any other boxer he fought against and i still say a prime Tyson would have fought a very similar fight than what Frazier did, only much better.

Im not saying Tyson would have beaten Ali, im just saying he would have stood a great chance in beating Ali in the first half of the fight.

We can only speculate what could have happened.

Re: Tyson on Ali

Fri Jan 11, 2013 9:23 pm

Bodie wrote:Im not saying Tyson would have beaten Ali, im just saying he would have stood a great chance in beating Ali in the first half of the fight.

We can only speculate what could have happened.


I'm with you on this Bodie. If I was betting on it I'd go with an Ali victory, but I don't think it's possible to speak with any kind of certainty about who would have won. It's certainly not a foregone conclusion.

If Cus had lived, I think things would have been a whole lot different for Tyson.

Re: Tyson on Ali

Fri Jan 11, 2013 9:46 pm

Bodie wrote:Im on about a prime Tyson...

Yep, I got that.
Likewise, I'm talking about a peak - as far as we can determine - Ali.

Bodie wrote:The second Ali/Frazier fight, Ali didn't dominate it, he won it by about 3-4 rounds, a smaller margin than when he lost to Frazier the first time.
The 3rd fight both boxers were on the verge of quitting.

He won the second fight comfortably, Bodie; stunning Frazier in the second round, before the referee ludicrously and controversially stopped Ali in his tracks.
Go watch it again.

Scorecards don't always tell the full picture. For example, one judge had Frazier winning the epic first bout by 11 rounds to 4!
Similarly, the scoring was way off base for "The Thrilla in Manila", which had Ali [curiously] winning easily.

Re: Tyson on Ali

Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:48 pm

TJ wrote:...I don't think it's possible to speak with any kind of certainty about who would have won.

Actually, it's not that difficult to have pretty good idea of the likely outcome.
It's to do Ali a great disservice if you ignore the fact [unlike Tyson] that no fighter ever stopped him [during combat] let alone in the first few rounds.
So the scenario put forward of Tyson winning via early knockout, is a fanciful conclusion at best.

Re: Tyson on Ali

Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:51 pm

elvisalisellers wrote:
Bodie wrote:Im on about a prime Tyson...

Yep, I got that.
Likewise, I'm talking about a peak - as far as we can determine - Ali
Bodie wrote:The second Ali/Frazier fight, Ali didn't dominate it, he won it by about 3-4 rounds, a smaller margin than when he lost to Frazier the first time.
The 3rd fight both boxers were on the verge of quitting.

He won the second fight comfortably, Bodie.
Stunning Frazier in the second round, before the referee ludicrously and controversially stopped Ali in his tracks.
Go watch it again.

Scorecards don't always tell the full picture. For example, one judge had Frazier winning the epic first bout by 11 rounds to 4!
Similarly, the scoring was way off base for "The Thrilla in Manila", which had Ali [curiously] winning easily.


.You referred to a 'post-comeback Tyson', that's not a prime Tyson. A prime Tyson was around the years 1986-88.

Ok well forget the scorecards, Frazier gave Ali problems in all three fights, Ali was so beaten-up in their 3rd fight he was on the verge of quitting before Frazier was pulled out by his corner-men, as i said, a prime Tyson would have certainly given Ali problems in the first half of the fight, especially the first two rounds, if they would have met.

Re: Tyson on Ali

Fri Jan 11, 2013 11:07 pm

elvisalisellers wrote:
TJ wrote:...I don't think it's possible to speak with any kind of certainty about who would have won.

Actually, it's not that difficult to have pretty good idea of the likely outcome.
It's to do Ali a great disservice if you ignore the fact [unlike Tyson] that no fighter ever stopped him [during combat] let alone in the first few rounds.
So the scenario put forward of Tyson winning via early knockout, is a fanciful conclusion at best.


To not give a prime Tyson a chance against a prime Ali is quite ridiculous.

Re: Tyson on Ali

Fri Jan 11, 2013 11:25 pm

Tyson had one punch knock out power in both hands.

If he caught Ali with one of those shots the fight would be over fast.

I remember seeing a highlight of a fight when a old white guy caught Ali with a good left hook that put him down. The end of the round saved Ali from being knocked out.

He wasn't ready to come out for the next round so his manager Dundee cut his glove. They had to go back to the training room and get him another one.

The whole process took around 10 minutes. If this hadn't happened he would have been knocked out for sure in the next round. One minute wasn't enough time for him
to
recover and Dundee knew it.

Don't get me wrong here, I loved Ali and he is still my favorite boxer. I just can't know for sure what would happen between him and Tyson in their prime, no one can.

I would have loved to see it, but with the Tyson who was trained by Kevin Rooney and when JIm Jacobs and Cus were alive he was the most awesome fighter I had ever seen.

Boxers were afraid when they entered the ring. Once Don King got ahold of Tyson he went down hill fast!!

Again, Ali is my favorite but I would have been afraid for him in the fight!! :)

Great discussion! It's always fun to talk about what might have been.


::rocks
Last edited by Mitch on Fri Jan 11, 2013 11:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Re: Tyson on Ali

Fri Jan 11, 2013 11:37 pm

Mitch wrote:I remember seeing a highlight of a fight when a old white guy caught Ali with a good left hook that put him down. The end of the round saved Ali from being knocked out.


I believe that was British champ Henry Cooper, and he was a good, tough fighter. Canadian George Chuvalo also put Ali on his keester with a left hook. Ali was strangely susceptible to left hooks and I've occasionally wondered if he had a problem with peripheral vision in his right eye.

Re: Tyson on Ali

Fri Jan 11, 2013 11:39 pm

Bodie wrote:You referred to a 'post-comeback Tyson', that's not a prime Tyson. A prime Tyson was around the years 1986-88.

You've misinterpreted.
I was referring to Tyson's legacy. Re. his inability [unlike Ali] to beat any of the real top heavyweights post-comeback.

Bodie wrote:To not give a prime Tyson a chance against a prime Ali is quite ridiculous.

I never said that. Read more carefully.

I said "the scenario put forward of Tyson winning via early knockout, is a fanciful conclusion at best."

Re: Tyson on Ali

Fri Jan 11, 2013 11:42 pm

Yes Mitch, as Peter wrote, that was the first fight against British Champ, Henry Cooper.

There was a big debate after the 4th rd knockdown which did save Ali, no question about that.

The debate was about the glove, there is proof that the glove had been torn during the fight but Dundee later admitted to tearing it more to allow extra time between rounds which was only a few seconds and not the minutes that people believe.

What is not mentioned was the illegal use of smelling salts that Dundee used on Ali to wake him up between the 4th and the 5th rounds.