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Re: Prince From Another Planet - Brilliant!

Thu Nov 29, 2012 8:18 pm

Tim C wrote:We've been waiting for 40 G'damn years for an audiophile type or at least better remixing/mastering of the evening show and all we got was an epic FAIL. How anyone can sit there and say this is a better mix when virtually everything behind Elvis's voice swirls in mud is beyond me. And yes, it does smack of arrogance for one to say it should be listened to on 10-20-30 thousand dollar equipment when ears can hear very well on $200 dollar equipment or $25.00 earphones for that matter. It's not like we are comparing cd to vinyl here either.

The stereo image is all f^d up. I'll tell you this much, when I went to see the Elvis concert in Cleveland about 10 years ago I could hear everything, there was no curtain, blanket, sheet, mattress and box-spring hiding the sound, unlike this release!!!

Ernst...FIX THIS...don't make us wait another 40 years, or even another year. The guy you hired to do this release was ill equipped mentally to do an Elvis concert. Maybe his "technique" works with the crap coming out today, but it doesn't work with the full audible range sound of an Elvis concert.

IMO This guy had no respect for what Elvis himself was trying to achieve onstage, the big band sound, the bigger than life aura and emotional impact that he was trying to create with the band driving him, making him feel it also. Where is the timbre of Ronnie's set? The voice of the Sweets and Stamps? Where are the horns at the most dramatic time in the song? Where is James guitar except during a few solos? They are trapped in a quagmire of artificial tones, swirling about, making you wonder...there they are...no wait...where did they go?

Where did the emotive peaks go, the crescendo, the moment of holding your breath in anticipation of what we all know by now should be coming, being held in anticipation, only to be let down by the lifeless muddiness of it all, the emotional impact gone, while trying to make up for it with bass drum impact, as if that is all to an Elvis show. Gone is the air, and life has been drained of the performance because of it. Why didn't they just EQ Elvis vocal track and remove as much bleed thru as possible and issue it with Ronnie's drum track alone, it would have been much more appreciated.


Wow, and people say I am negative. Just kidding.
I agree with you but I wasn't that to the point.
In my review I did state that this mix was an improvement over "Afternoon at the Garden" only because
that cd was done so poorly.
Do you agree with that, or do you find even that show was messed up even worse?
I find the two shows now sound about the same.
The feel that distinguished the evening show from the afternoon show is all but gone, buried in as you say, "mud".

But what the hell, people love it. They can't get enough of it.
And they know better, because they have an expensive stereo. LOL.
Last edited by ekenee on Thu Nov 29, 2012 9:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Re: Prince From Another Planet - Brilliant!

Thu Nov 29, 2012 8:52 pm

My point about stereo was the opposite. It was in response to Mike saying anyone with a good stereo could tell this crap. As mentioned above you can tell whether you like it or not on anything if that's your normal reference point. A better system lets you hear more but that's a different discussion. The bottom line is it's up to the individual whether they enjoy it or not. You can rant and rave one way or the other but at the end of the day make your own mind up.

If FTD wants to give me yet another version I'd buy it but in the meantime I'm happy to have a choice from what we now have.

Re: Prince From Another Planet - Brilliant!

Thu Nov 29, 2012 9:40 pm

Jamie wrote:My point about stereo was the opposite. It was in response to Mike saying anyone with a good stereo could tell this crap. As mentioned above you can tell whether you like it or not on anything if that's your normal reference point. A better system lets you hear more but that's a different discussion. The bottom line is it's up to the individual whether they enjoy it or not. You can rant and rave one way or the other but at the end of the day make your own mind up.

If FTD wants to give me yet another version I'd buy it but in the meantime I'm happy to have a choice from what we now have.

Exactly, it is all about a reference point.
The cheap / expensive stereo thing is invalid.
It's all about relative comparisons.

If you play the old mix on a cheap stereo and you hate it,
and then you play the new mix on a cheap stereo and you like it, well you did a like comparison.

Or vice versa.
The key is keeping the comparison stereo the same.
Otherwise people would say, "well you can't appreciate anything on a cheap stereo", which is simply untrue.

Re: Prince From Another Planet - Brilliant!

Thu Nov 29, 2012 9:46 pm

Jamie wrote:My point about stereo was the opposite. It was in response to Mike saying anyone with a good stereo could tell this crap.......A better system lets you hear more but that's a different discussion.

Actually it is totally relevant to this discussion.

Depending on the equipment you are using, you will hear things very differently. For example I have just finished playing the evening show featured on this release on my car stereo and you know what.....it sounds damn good....without doubt the best representation of this show. So I totally believe all those who say it sounds great through headphones.

It would seem that, in this case, everything depends on what you're playing it on.....which brings us back to the reason for the complaints.....this clearly should not be the case.

(The afternoon show still sounds lousy though....with everything besides Elvis' vocals sounding muddy).

Re: Prince From Another Planet - Brilliant!

Thu Nov 29, 2012 10:24 pm

Mike, you inferred that anyone with a decent stereo would know this was crap. By default those who enjoy it don't have decent hifi. I am simply saying it's not true as I am sure there are plenty on this board who have listened on good equipment and still enjoy it. But there's no point in debating why some do like it and some don't. I'm glad at least you might play it in the car!

Cheers Jamie

Re: Prince From Another Planet - Brilliant!

Thu Nov 29, 2012 10:43 pm

Mike S wrote:
Jamie wrote:My point about stereo was the opposite. It was in response to Mike saying anyone with a good stereo could tell this crap.......A better system lets you hear more but that's a different discussion.

Actually it is totally relevant to this discussion.

Depending on the equipment you are using, you will hear things very differently. For example I have just finished playing the evening show featured on this release on my car stereo and you know what.....it sounds damn good....without doubt the best representation of this show. So I totally believe all those who say it sounds great through headphones.

It would seem that, in this case, everything depends on what you're playing it on.....which brings us back to the reason for the complaints.....this clearly should not be the case.

(The afternoon show still sounds lousy though....with everything besides Elvis' vocals sounding muddy).


I agree with Mike, I have been playing the hell out of these two cds on my MINI's Harmon/Kardon stereo and it sounds killer! There is a definite difference in the sound on some songs between the matinee and evening shows...I think the evening show has a clearer, crisper sound. I've also played it on my 18 year old kenwood home stereo system in dolby pro logic theater (surround sound) loud and proud and I think it sounds better in my car. I can't tell you how many times I've made a compilation of my favs from both shows as a hybrid. I could listen to That's All Right/Proud Mary/Polk Salad Annie/Suspicious Minds/Can't Stop Loving You all day long!

Re: Prince From Another Planet - Brilliant!

Thu Nov 29, 2012 11:47 pm

ML4EP wrote:I agree with Mike, I have been playing the hell out of these two cds on my MINI's Harmon/Kardon stereo and it sounds killer! There is a definite difference in the sound on some songs between the matinee and evening shows...I think the evening show has a clearer, crisper sound. I've also played it on my 18 year old kenwood home stereo system in dolby pro logic theater (surround sound) loud and proud and I think it sounds better in my car.

Thank you ML4EP for proving my point......and by coincidence I also have a Harmon Kardon system in my car. Great minds eh?

Re: Prince From Another Planet - Brilliant!

Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:07 am

Jamie wrote:Mike, you inferred that anyone with a decent stereo would know this was crap. By default those who enjoy it don't have decent hifi. I am simply saying it's not true as I am sure there are plenty on this board who have listened on good equipment and still enjoy it.

Jamie, the point I am making has nothing whatsoever to do with arrogance or one-upmanship as you try to infer.

It is simply that Matthew's observations (along with others) will inevitably ring louder for anyone possessing a high grade hi-fi system, simply because the limitations of these remixed shows will be more apparent. As everyone (including yourself) seems to agree -

this is not an audiophile product - pure and simple.

The burning question is: Why bother to remix these shows in the first place unless you are going to create an audiophile product? After all, done right, it could and should please everyone.

Re: Prince From Another Planet - Brilliant!

Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:11 am

Mike S wrote:
Jamie wrote:My point about stereo was the opposite. It was in response to Mike saying anyone with a good stereo could tell this crap.......A better system lets you hear more but that's a different discussion.

Actually it is totally relevant to this discussion.

Depending on the equipment you are using, you will hear things very differently. For example I have just finished playing the evening show featured on this release on my car stereo and you know what.....it sounds damn good....without doubt the best representation of this show. So I totally believe all those who say it sounds great through headphones.

It would seem that, in this case, everything depends on what you're playing it on.....which brings us back to the reason for the complaints.....this clearly should not be the case.

(The afternoon show still sounds lousy though....with everything besides Elvis' vocals sounding muddy).


Then if what you are saying is true, the mixing, the mastering is completely unimportant.
Everything sounds great on your stereo.
So, why not just stay with the original mix?
Yes, a nice stereo makes everything sound better, but
that isn't the issue.
The issue is the relative comparison of the old mix verse the new mix.
A relative comparison can be done on any stereo.

Re: Prince From Another Planet - Brilliant!

Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:23 am

ekenee wrote:Yes, a nice stereo makes everything sound better....

Normally yes.....but maybe not here.
ekenee wrote:The issue is the relative comparison of the old mix verse the new mix. A relative comparison can be done on any stereo.

Of course, but my point in this instance is that the system you use can influence your overall impression of the sound. The evening show sounds compressed and lacks clarity on my home hi-fi ( a more sensitive system) but sounds amazingly good on my car hi-fi. If I had only ever listened to this show on my car stereo, I wouldn't understand for a minute why anyone was complaining.

The point is that obviously this should not be the case.

Re: Prince From Another Planet - Brilliant!

Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:36 am

Mike S wrote:
Jamie wrote:Mike, you inferred that anyone with a decent stereo would know this was crap. By default those who enjoy it don't have decent hifi. I am simply saying it's not true as I am sure there are plenty on this board who have listened on good equipment and still enjoy it.

Jamie, the point I am making has nothing whatsoever to do with arrogance or one-upmanship as you try to infer.

It is simply that Matthew's observations (along with others) will inevitably ring louder for anyone possessing a high grade hi-fi system, simply because the limitations of these remixed shows will be more apparent. As everyone (including yourself) seems to agree -

this is not an audiophile product - pure and simple.

The burning question is: Why bother to remix these shows in the first place unless you are going to create an audiophile product? After all, done right, it could and should please everyone.


I'm not sure I know what an audiophile product is, but considering that this is a 16 track recording as opposed to Aloha's 24 track or better...how much could they have done with it? I have the PFAP, MSG Legacy, original AITG cd, Japanese papersleeve MSG, complete masters MSG, and retro audio MSG. AITG on the Legacy sounds like the same pitiful sound as the original. I'm not sure I can tell the difference between the Legacy eve show, complete masters, and Japanese papersleeve...I've listened to the Legacy very little...initial impression was new packaging/old cd sound. I'm using it as a decoration/paperweight on my desk at work. I did give a copy of both PFAP cds to a young co-worker, he's in his early 20's, and both he and his wife were like "wow--that's bad ass!" They are not Elvis fans, never knew he played MSG, but they were impressed with the "drive" and sound both those shows have, especially the opening numbers like TAR, Proud Mary.

Re: Prince From Another Planet - Brilliant!

Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:49 am

There is a difference between audiophile recording, and audiophile post-production. Sometimes both worlds meet and you get wonderful results - like Bill Porter's early 60s Nashville recordings on Elvis on Complete Masters.

The MSG multis are only audiophile in as much as they have an obvious wide dynamic range on them, beyond that they are not technically audiophile grade recordings. But despite this, when treated well in post-production - tasteful, natural EQ, absence of post-production compression and noise reduction techniques you can end up with an audiophile presentation of the recording.

Re: Prince From Another Planet - Brilliant!

Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:59 am

Matthew wrote:There is a difference between audiophile recording, and audiophile post-production. Sometimes both worlds meet and you get wonderful results - like Bill Porter's early 60s Nashville recordings on Elvis on Complete Masters.

The MSG multis are only audiophile in as much as they have an obvious wide dynamic range on them, beyond that they are not technically audiophile grade recordings. But despite this, when treated well in post-production - tasteful, natural EQ, absence of post-production compression and noise reduction techniques you can end up with an audiophile presentation of the recording.

Thanks Matthew.

I was just thinking that maybe I wasn't qualified to give a definitive answer to ML4EP's question and you stepped in on cue (proving I wasn't).

Re: Prince From Another Planet - Brilliant!

Fri Nov 30, 2012 1:20 am

I have to say I used my headphones to listen to the CDs, but they gave me a headache... don't know why, but I haven't finished them yet because of that.
I enjoyed the DVD very much though, specially the documentary.

Re: Prince From Another Planet - Brilliant!

Fri Nov 30, 2012 1:28 am

Are we not getting a tad picky?

Shouldn't we be desiring a sound that Elvis approved?

And not what professional "experts" think it should be

Re: Prince From Another Planet - Brilliant!

Fri Nov 30, 2012 1:36 am

KiwiAlan wrote:Are we not getting a tad picky?

Shouldn't we be desiring a sound that Elvis approved and not what professional "experts" think it should be

Last time I heard he wasn't around to pass his approval of the latest remix...what have you heard?
Last edited by Mike S on Fri Nov 30, 2012 1:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

Re: Prince From Another Planet - Brilliant!

Fri Nov 30, 2012 1:37 am

JimmyCool wrote:I have to say I used my headphones to listen to the CDs, but they gave me a headache... don't know why, but I haven't finished them yet because of that.

Welcome to the wonderful world of ear fatigue caused by too much audio compression and peak limiting.

Re: Prince From Another Planet - Brilliant!

Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:23 am

Matthew wrote:
JimmyCool wrote:I have to say I used my headphones to listen to the CDs, but they gave me a headache... don't know why, but I haven't finished them yet because of that.

Welcome to the wonderful world of ear fatigue caused by too much audio compression and peak limiting.


But everyone with an expensive stereo says the sound is brilliant!! LOL.

Re: Prince From Another Planet - Brilliant!

Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:33 am

ekenee wrote:
Matthew wrote:
JimmyCool wrote:I have to say I used my headphones to listen to the CDs, but they gave me a headache... don't know why, but I haven't finished them yet because of that.

Welcome to the wonderful world of ear fatigue caused by too much audio compression and peak limiting.


But everyone with an expensive stereo says the sound is brilliant!! LOL.


It's not like saying a picture on a TV is brilliant. For that, we have much more concrete things to measure it by - lack of noise, clearly picture, strong colours etc. We all probably agree, within reason, as to what a good TV picture is.

With audio it's very different, it's all very much in the "ear of the beholder", if you like. What some of us like, others don't. I find the new release a thousand times better than the original vinyl, but it depends what we as individuals like - and we're all different, as shown by the fact we have graphic equalisers on our hi-fis so we can adjust the sound to our own liking.

Re: Prince From Another Planet - Brilliant!

Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:35 am

I do think there were things wrong with Afternoon, but it was a breath of fresh air compared to the evening show. It indicated the evening show had more to give and that the mixing/mastering that had been done on it was piss poor to begin with. I agree that on the Afternoon show Elvis' voice seemed to be lower in the mix than some of the band. Now whether this is true or now I don't know

I agree, listening to the show and determining the quality of it is relative. It depends on what you are used to listening to your music on, the tone adjustments and the standard eq settings if any that you use, but one should be able to judge and make up their own mind without being ridiculed for the equipment they use. Maybe you can tell certain subtleties on a $30,000 dollar system better than a $250.00 system...and I know you can because I've listened to both, but it is dependent on so many factors and there is no uniformity to any of it and what the manufacturers are trying to achieve with it that basically it's choice and personal preference, some of it is phantom perception, and most of what you get for the price is hype, I can come up with cheaper equipment that will give me the same thing and maybe do it better. Either way, it's all personal choice and what you are used to listening on.

In any case, I think I was pretty clear in my opinion of this release, LOL.
I will add tho, that an Elvis concert is much more than Elvis' voice and Ronnie's heavy beat, but on this release it seems as if that is almost all there is as it's hidden in the mud. The breadth and depth of an open concert is gone. I'm not talking about echo here...it's just the life is gone as if someone took the whole sound stage out of it.

Yea, it thumps you in the chest..."finally" (like Afternoon should have done from the beginning) but they could have added that and not lost everything else in the process.

I wish I could be the one to get hold of the multitrack master tapes and they would allow me to be a part of the remix and remaster of these releases. I would try to give something all Elvis fans would be proud of, but only if they would agree to release it on a surround sound format disc. We've waited for 4 decades for the remix/master of the evening show. There was no excuse for this, it's an embarrassment. I have to ask WTF were they thinking?!?!

Re: Prince From Another Planet - Brilliant!

Fri Nov 30, 2012 4:30 am

poormadpeter wrote:
ekenee wrote:
Matthew wrote:
JimmyCool wrote:I have to say I used my headphones to listen to the CDs, but they gave me a headache... don't know why, but I haven't finished them yet because of that.

Welcome to the wonderful world of ear fatigue caused by too much audio compression and peak limiting.


But everyone with an expensive stereo says the sound is brilliant!! LOL.


It's not like saying a picture on a TV is brilliant. For that, we have much more concrete things to measure it by - lack of noise, clearly picture, strong colours etc. We all probably agree, within reason, as to what a good TV picture is.

With audio it's very different, it's all very much in the "ear of the beholder", if you like. What some of us like, others don't. I find the new release a thousand times better than the original vinyl, but it depends what we as individuals like - and we're all different, as shown by the fact we have graphic equalisers on our hi-fis so we can adjust the sound to our own liking.


"a thousand times better than the original vinyl".

For you to make a statement like that, you would have had to do an A/B comparison of
the vinyl and the CD disc on the same exact stereo, so the only difference would be the music.

If you didn't, your earlier statement is not valid.

Re: Prince From Another Planet - Brilliant!

Fri Nov 30, 2012 5:24 am

Arjan Deelen has written a delightful and pretty detailed review for EIN.
I think it covers most people’s viewpoints - and it's good to know that PFAP got good review in the mainstream Danish press.
I still wish it would sell in larger quanties. Such great value-for-money. .

"PRINCE? MAKE THAT KING!" - Arjan Deelen reviews the new Sony ‘Prince From Another Planet’ package.
It’s been a while since a new Elvis release generated as much publicity as ‘Prince From Another Planet’ - But is it as good as our high expectations?

Go here>>>
http://www.elvisinfonet.com/cd_review_P ... lanet.html

Image
Cheers,
Piers

Re: Prince From Another Planet - Brilliant!

Fri Nov 30, 2012 10:35 am

Deelan sums up my own experience of listening to the Prince set. Long since I really couldn't get enough of an Elvis album like these two. Long since I played albums over and over again!
Nothing, whatsoever, can take away MY love for this release! :) The Legacy duo of these albums are underway!

Re: Prince From Another Planet - Brilliant!

Fri Nov 30, 2012 11:25 am

A great review

http://www.superdeluxeedition.com/revie ... -planet-2/

Re: Prince From Another Planet - Brilliant!

Fri Nov 30, 2012 11:37 am

PiersEIN wrote:Arjan Deelen has written a delightful and pretty detailed review for EIN.
I think it covers most people’s viewpoints - and it's good to know that PFAP got good review in the mainstream Danish press.
I still wish it would sell in larger quanties. Such great value-for-money. .

"PRINCE? MAKE THAT KING!" - Arjan Deelen reviews the new Sony ‘Prince From Another Planet’ package.
It’s been a while since a new Elvis release generated as much publicity as ‘Prince From Another Planet’ - But is it as good as our high expectations?

Go here>>>
http://www.elvisinfonet.com/cd_review_P ... lanet.html

Image
Cheers,
Piers


Great review indeed. Thanks Arjan, this completely reflects my feeling. I never liked the original lifeless flat mix and hearing PFAP was some kind of a rediscovery of the MSG concerts for me.