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Re: Prince From Another Planet - Brilliant!

Fri Nov 23, 2012 2:04 am

a mess of polk salad wrote:
Jamie wrote:Fundamental flaws my a @"!

I have watched the DVD twice and know which songs have footage so I can use the song select if I wish. No big issue. The documentary is good, the press conference could be better but I still enjoyed it. Sony employed one of the highest rated producers around and I doubt that comes cheap. Check his history he is not some Coldplay guy but has a huge catalogue covering a wide range of artists including Dylan legacy releases. You may not like the presentation of the music but that doesn't mean it's fundamentally flawed. Many like it as is. This is a lovely well thought out package no doubt done on a tight budget. Oh and the booklet is lovely piece of work.

Just a thought but a wider dynamic range doesn't make an audiophile product. It's a good start but the mix can still be screwed up. Whilst I have always enjoyed the various versions of MSG it's because I love the show. Elvis sounds miles away and his voice thin when compared to the fuller vocals we now get.

Cheers Jamie

Spot on!


I think the only "fundamental flaw" is the tight CD slits. And I don't really give much of a toss about that.

As the Stranglers once sang.. "Everybody loves you when you're dead", and when the Elvis music catalogue reissue scenario breathes its final breath, people will realise how lucky we were to have a beautiful, affordable product like PFAP in 2012. It isn't 1995 anymore, the industry is wrecked, but even if it was booming this would still be an exceptionally good product. Hooray!

Re: Prince From Another Planet - Brilliant!

Fri Nov 23, 2012 2:09 am

Jamie wrote:Just a thought but a wider dynamic range doesn't make an audiophile product.

Not on its own no. PFAP is a strange hybrid, we have a modern, compressed (almost restricted sounding) mix married with mastering from an engineer renowned for his audiophile aesthetics. In this case the result is far from audiophile philosophy.

On the other hand Vic Anesini's remastering of the original 1972 mix is excellent. Say what you will about the original mix - it is what it is, but the mix has been mastered without additional compression applied and with tasteful EQ.

As I listen to these shows I am coming to the conclusion that the drive to achieve a "in the 4th row" sound was better achieved by FTD's "Live On Stage In Memphis" release from 2004. The Prince mixes don't really achieve the same result - Elvis' vocal sound oddly detached from the rest of the sound elements, including the backing voices. The original mix finds Elvis' vocal track sitting with the rest of the band. Prince is not terrible, but it's not quite "right" either.

The original mix certainly has a dryer overall sound where as the new mix is slightly wetter - more reverb, but particularly on Elvis' vocal. Verdict is still out. One thing is for sure though, Jerry's all important bass solo in Polk Salad Annie has still never sounded better than on the original 1972 Madison Square Garden mix. Prince is far better than the likes of Afternoon and Live In Texas but still not quite as good as the punchy mixed to the front result of MSG.

Re: Prince From Another Planet - Brilliant!

Fri Nov 23, 2012 2:34 am

This is very interesting, I apoligise for my earlier brusque words.

Would you say the sort of tinny down the drain type sound from the 90s BMG CD is gone from the ES Legacy Matthew?

Matthew wrote:
Jamie wrote:Just a thought but a wider dynamic range doesn't make an audiophile product.

Not on its own no. PFAP is a strange hybrid, we have a modern, compressed (almost restricted sounding) mix married with mastering from an engineer renowned for his audiophile aesthetics. In this case the result is far from audiophile philosophy.

On the other hand Vic Anesini's remastering of the original 1972 mix is excellent. Say what you will about the original mix - it is what it is, but the mix has been mastered without additional compression applied and with tasteful EQ.

As I listen to these shows I am coming to the conclusion that the drive to achieve a "in the 4th row" sound was better achieved by FTD's "Live On Stage In Memphis" release from 2004. The Prince mixes don't really achieve the same result - Elvis' vocal sound oddly detached from the rest of the sound elements, including the backing voices. The original mix finds Elvis' vocal track sitting with the rest of the band. Prince is not terrible, but it's not quite "right" either.

The original mix certainly has a dryer overall sound where as the new mix is slightly wetter - more reverb, but particularly on Elvis' vocal. Verdict is still out. One thing is for sure though, Jerry's all important bass solo in Polk Salad Annie has still never sounded better than on the original 1972 Madison Square Garden mix. Prince is far better than the likes of Afternoon and Live In Texas but still not quite as good as the punchy mixed to the front result of MSG.

Re: Prince From Another Planet - Brilliant!

Fri Nov 23, 2012 2:41 am

King Volcano wrote:Would you say the sort of tinny down the drain type sound from the 90s BMG CD is gone from the ES Legacy Matthew?

I do not have the new Legacy Edition of As Recorded At Madison Square Garden, not yet anyway. However if it features the same Vic Anesini remaster (of the evening show) that appears on the Complete Masters set (which no doubt it does) then yes. The audio is full and open sounding. It does not suffer from that rather dull, blanket over the speakers tonality of the early 90s BMG CD.

Re: Prince From Another Planet - Brilliant!

Fri Nov 23, 2012 8:33 am

Matthew wrote:
Jamie wrote:Just a thought but a wider dynamic range doesn't make an audiophile product.

Not on its own no. PFAP is a strange hybrid, we have a modern, compressed (almost restricted sounding) mix married with mastering from an engineer renowned for his audiophile aesthetics. In this case the result is far from audiophile philosophy.

On the other hand Vic Anesini's remastering of the original 1972 mix is excellent. Say what you will about the original mix - it is what it is, but the mix has been mastered without additional compression applied and with tasteful EQ.

As I listen to these shows I am coming to the conclusion that the drive to achieve a "in the 4th row" sound was better achieved by FTD's "Live On Stage In Memphis" release from 2004. The Prince mixes don't really achieve the same result - Elvis' vocal sound oddly detached from the rest of the sound elements, including the backing voices. The original mix finds Elvis' vocal track sitting with the rest of the band. Prince is not terrible, but it's not quite "right" either.

The original mix certainly has a dryer overall sound where as the new mix is slightly wetter - more reverb, but particularly on Elvis' vocal. Verdict is still out. One thing is for sure though, Jerry's all important bass solo in Polk Salad Annie has still never sounded better than on the original 1972 Madison Square Garden mix. Prince is far better than the likes of Afternoon and Live In Texas but still not quite as good as the punchy mixed to the front result of MSG.


I don't know if I am in the bizarro reverse world but I do agree with what you say here.

Re: Prince From Another Planet - Brilliant!

Fri Nov 23, 2012 10:12 am

Matthew, I think your summary is a well balanced review and I certainly agree MSG is more "audiophile" if you like. But I just find something not quite right about the presentation. On the new mix I just feel Elvis vocals sound better and I don't find them detached although the backing vocals are very recessed. I do think there is now pretty "something for everyone" :-)

Jamie

Re: Prince From Another Planet - Brilliant!

Fri Nov 23, 2012 10:30 am

I don't dislike the new mixes - I've yet to make up my mind. I just don't think they're the revelation they're being made out to be, neither do I think they're the cutting edge of their potential.

Re: Prince From Another Planet - Brilliant!

Fri Nov 23, 2012 10:33 am

:D well this morning i just listened to the E/S again complete and i simply NEVER heard it sounding SO GOOD-brilliant in my opinion!~ :lol:

Re: Prince From Another Planet - Brilliant!

Fri Nov 23, 2012 1:48 pm

Matthew wrote:PFAP is a strange hybrid, we have a modern, compressed (almost restricted sounding) mix married with mastering from an engineer renowned for his audiophile aesthetics. In this case the result is far from audiophile philosophy.

Quite. In fact it's little more than a cheap gimmick as Tim C wrote earlier

Matthew wrote:As I listen to these shows I am coming to the conclusion that the drive to achieve a "in the 4th row" sound was better achieved by FTD's "Live On Stage In Memphis" release from 2004.

Agreed....mastered by Lene Reidel no less and greeted by howls of disapproval at the time. I think the fact that we are now rating her work higher than this Brauer guy speaks for itself. It's a poor effort.

Matthew wrote:Elvis' vocal sound oddly detached from the rest of the sound elements, including the backing voices....Prince is not terrible, but it's not quite "right" either....One thing is for sure though, Jerry's all important bass solo in Polk Salad Annie has still never sounded better than on the original 1972 Madison Square Garden mix. Prince is..... still not quite as good as the punchy mixed to the front result of MSG.

The only logical conclusion that can be drawn from your spot-on comments above is that this re-mix is a disappointing letdown.

Welcome to the club.

Re: Prince From Another Planet - Brilliant!

Fri Nov 23, 2012 5:39 pm

Mike, sorry to hear you are disappointed with the sound. I finally got to sit down last night and listen to the evening show through my Bose headphones last night and I was very impressed. To me, it sounded as if this concert was recorded last week instead of 40 years ago. It will be the go-to version from now on when I want to hear this show.

For those in the other thread complaining about the video, I also don't understand all of the moaning about the sprockets and whatnot. This is magnificent footage that has been made available to us in pristine quality and some complain about it? This is an outstanding release and one that I will enjoy for years to come. Damn a sprocket! Take a look at what is going on to the right of those sprockets. It's Elvis on stage at the Garden!

Man, on that footage when Elvis takes the stage, he looks outstanding. Gave me chills. I have long been a fan of those Garden shows and this release reminded me why. Now, I find myself looking forward to the new Straight Arrow release.

What a weekend that was in New York during the spring of 1972!

Re: Prince From Another Planet - Brilliant!

Fri Nov 23, 2012 5:45 pm

Atta boy Rob! I knew you were gonna really enjoy PFAP.

Re: Prince From Another Planet - Brilliant!

Fri Nov 23, 2012 5:55 pm

Whilst I think that both afternoon and evening shows have been greatly improved I do feel that the opening of the afternoon show to be somewhat muted compared to AAITG. The crowd reaction seems to have been lost somewhat amongst the band/orchestra.

So far PFAP has appeared in the following Charts:

Dutch - 57
Austria - 62
UK - 74
USA - 187.

Brian

Re: Prince From Another Planet - Brilliant!

Fri Nov 23, 2012 6:12 pm

Brian Quinn wrote:Whilst I think that both afternoon and evening shows have been greatly improved I do feel that the opening of the afternoon show to be somewhat muted compared to AAITG. The crowd reaction seems to have been lost somewhat amongst the band/orchestra.

So far PFAP has appeared in the following Charts:

Dutch - 57
Austria - 62
UK - 74
USA - 187.

Brian


those numbers are actually quite good for the first 2 weeks.

Re: Prince From Another Planet - Brilliant!

Fri Nov 23, 2012 6:18 pm

I really enjoy the new mixes ! To the point I have difficulties in going back and listening to the other Elvis records because to my ears they start sounding flat.

Re: Prince From Another Planet - Brilliant!

Fri Nov 23, 2012 7:09 pm

Mike, it's clear you don't like it and that is fine, others agree, many love it. But you shouldn't dis it the way you do imo. The majority don't find it a let down. It's no cheap trick to use Brauer and his methods are not gimmicks. If you take the time to read his history, catalogue and reviews of his techniques on line you will see it's a highly skilled approach. I get that it's not audiophile but it's no let down either or cheap trick. He would hardly come cheap anyway. It's worth remembering that this is a mainstream release not just targeted at fans. I am sure the non fanatic who does buy it won't be worried about previous versions nor comparisons with FTD's. The last trashed compressed mass market release 30 no 1's sold 16 million. As I say it's not everyone's cup of tea but that doesn't make it crap.

Cheers jamie

Re: Prince From Another Planet - Brilliant!

Fri Nov 23, 2012 10:15 pm

Johnny2523 wrote:
Brian Quinn wrote:Whilst I think that both afternoon and evening shows have been greatly improved I do feel that the opening of the afternoon show to be somewhat muted compared to AAITG. The crowd reaction seems to have been lost somewhat amongst the band/orchestra.

So far PFAP has appeared in the following Charts:

Dutch - 57
Austria - 62
UK - 74
USA - 187.

Brian


those numbers are actually quite good for the first 2 weeks.


Especially as it's hardly available in store.
5000 units available in the UK, so I'm surprised it even shows up.

Re: Prince From Another Planet - Brilliant!

Fri Nov 23, 2012 10:37 pm

so if its available in hardly any stores is everyone buying it from Amazon like i did?? :?

Re: Prince From Another Planet - Brilliant!

Fri Nov 23, 2012 10:50 pm

Aren't most music purchases made online these days?

Re: Prince From Another Planet - Brilliant!

Fri Nov 23, 2012 10:54 pm

All of mine are.

Re: Prince From Another Planet - Brilliant!

Fri Nov 23, 2012 11:47 pm

Matthew wrote:Aren't most music purchases made online these days?


And here we go wrong.
US digital sales in the music industry now sits at 52%
However, that's driven by downloads only =different ballgame.

Purchasing cd's on line is a different story and in this case (a premium box set) bricks and mortar retail is still significant.
Funny thing is that these numbers are not available in annual music industry reports.

Anyone?

Re: Prince From Another Planet - Brilliant!

Sat Nov 24, 2012 1:03 pm

Jamie wrote:
Mike S wrote:
DEH wrote:As for the sound, this new mix isn't for me as levels have been artificially raised making it sound muddy and constricted on a good hi-fi system. Admittedly I haven't tried it on my car stereo which may be less forgiving. It would be interesting to hear what Matthew and other sound enthusiasts have to say on this in due course.


I understand what you say about the sound as there isn't a wide spread of instruments/vocals across the soundstage. Brauer is also renouned for his use of compression which may explain the sense of the dynamics being restricted. However, having said that the remit was to put you in the fourth row of the Stadium and I think it achieves that brilliantly. It is an exciting sound and there is still enough clarity to follow JB's guitar, different drums, etc. There is plenty of bass and kick drums and Elvis vocals are crystal clear. It isn't a dry almost studio recording like the 72 Vegas releases for instance but if it was I think we would have lost the sense of occassion, excitement and passion. Ideally, the DVD could have carried a studio mix and concert mix but that's just a dream.

I would say it's like the Memphis 74 take on a mix which whilst not an audiophile recorording again really captures that sense of being there. I certainly don't think I will be playing the original CD's again as I really like the approach taken - Elvis vocals sound superb.


I have to agree with Jamie.
I've given these cd's a few spins in the last couple of days, and I compared the afternoon show with the Afternoon In The Garden cd. I must admit that I like the sound, it's raw, exciting and powerful. Indeed, Elvis' voice sounds superb, and the drums, bass and JB's guitar are upfront and prominent (unlike on FTD's Live In Memphis where JB's guitar is burried deep in the mix, and I got the impression that everything sounds pretty distant).
While I'm writing this, I'm listening to Reconsider Baby on the afternoon show (PFAP) and the sound is definately not muffled, it is crystal clear and punchy, only the piano is a little bit less audible unfortunately.
While listening to Afternoon In The Garden, I thought that there was nothing wrong with the mix in the first place. The sound is much warmer and spread out, and it is certanly a pleasent listen, but real excitement of the Garden shows, in my opinion, is on Prince From Another Planet.
Also, this is a rear occasion that I don't agree with Mike, but also I can understand his point of view. Compression and the 'wall of sound' can be noisy, but luckily this time I found it enjoyable.
Finaly, It would be interesting to hear Owen Egeland's from 'Elvis In Norway' opinion about the sound quality.

Re: Prince From Another Planet - Brilliant!

Sat Nov 24, 2012 1:12 pm

Rob wrote:Mike, sorry to hear you are disappointed with the sound. I finally got to sit down last night and listen to the evening show through my Bose headphones last night and I was very impressed. To me, it sounded as if this concert was recorded last week instead of 40 years ago. It will be the go-to version from now on when I want to hear this show.

Thank you for posting your impressions.

It's interesting to hear your comments regarding the sound and leads me to wonder whether the mix has actually been designed to sound at its best through headphones, for this appears to be the current fashion at present, whether through ipods or computer monitors etc. where separation is not the paramount concern. Just a thought?

No one can doubt the value of the footage though, which is extroadinarily clear given the circumstances and shows Elvis looking so much better and trimmer than he did in the On Tour movie. Wonderful indeed!

Re: Prince From Another Planet - Brilliant!

Sat Nov 24, 2012 1:24 pm

KB wrote:
Jamie wrote:
Mike S wrote:As for the sound, this new mix isn't for me as levels have been artificially raised making it sound muddy and constricted on a good hi-fi system. Admittedly I haven't tried it on my car stereo which may be less forgiving. It would be interesting to hear what Matthew and other sound enthusiasts have to say on this in due course.


I understand what you say about the sound as there isn't a wide spread of instruments/vocals across the soundstage. Brauer is also renouned for his use of compression which may explain the sense of the dynamics being restricted. However, having said that the remit was to put you in the fourth row of the Stadium and I think it achieves that brilliantly. It is an exciting sound and there is still enough clarity to follow JB's guitar, different drums, etc. There is plenty of bass and kick drums and Elvis vocals are crystal clear. It isn't a dry almost studio recording like the 72 Vegas releases for instance but if it was I think we would have lost the sense of occassion, excitement and passion. Ideally, the DVD could have carried a studio mix and concert mix but that's just a dream.

I would say it's like the Memphis 74 take on a mix which whilst not an audiophile recorording again really captures that sense of being there. I certainly don't think I will be playing the original CD's again as I really like the approach taken - Elvis vocals sound superb.


I have to agree with Jamie.
I've given these cd's a few spins in the last couple of days, and I compared the afternoon show with the Afternoon In The Garden cd. I must admit that I like the sound, it's raw, exciting and powerful. Indeed, Elvis' voice sounds superb, and the drums, bass and JB's guitar are upfront and prominent (unlike on FTD's Live In Memphis where JB's guitar is burried deep in the mix, and I got the impression that everything sounds pretty distant).
While I'm writing this, I'm listening to Reconsider Baby on the afternoon show (PFAP) and the sound is definately not muffled, it is crystal clear and punchy, only the piano is a little bit less audible unfortunately.
While listening to Afternoon In The Garden, I thought that there was nothing wrong with the mix in the first place. The sound is much warmer and spread out, and it is certanly a pleasent listen, but real excitement of the Garden shows, in my opinion, is on Prince From Another Planet.
Also, this is a rare occasion that I don't agree with Mike, but also I can understand his point of view. Compression and the 'wall of sound' can be noisy, but luckily this time I found it enjoyable.
Finaly, It would be interesting to hear Owen Egeland's from 'Elvis In Norway' opinion about the sound quality.

Thanks for your posting your comments KB, which are doubly interesting as we normally agree. Can you advise what sound system you have and even more importantly whether you are listening through headphones?

Also bear in mind I am not comparing it to the '97 Afternoon In The Garden release but to CD 1 of the Operation Big Apple import which I suspect may be the new remix at an ealier stage before Brauer compressed it.

Re: Prince From Another Planet - Brilliant!

Sat Nov 24, 2012 2:13 pm

Mike S wrote:
KB wrote:
Jamie wrote:
Mike S wrote:As for the sound, this new mix isn't for me as levels have been artificially raised making it sound muddy and constricted on a good hi-fi system. Admittedly I haven't tried it on my car stereo which may be less forgiving. It would be interesting to hear what Matthew and other sound enthusiasts have to say on this in due course.


I understand what you say about the sound as there isn't a wide spread of instruments/vocals across the soundstage. Brauer is also renouned for his use of compression which may explain the sense of the dynamics being restricted. However, having said that the remit was to put you in the fourth row of the Stadium and I think it achieves that brilliantly. It is an exciting sound and there is still enough clarity to follow JB's guitar, different drums, etc. There is plenty of bass and kick drums and Elvis vocals are crystal clear. It isn't a dry almost studio recording like the 72 Vegas releases for instance but if it was I think we would have lost the sense of occassion, excitement and passion. Ideally, the DVD could have carried a studio mix and concert mix but that's just a dream.

I would say it's like the Memphis 74 take on a mix which whilst not an audiophile recorording again really captures that sense of being there. I certainly don't think I will be playing the original CD's again as I really like the approach taken - Elvis vocals sound superb.


I have to agree with Jamie.
I've given these cd's a few spins in the last couple of days, and I compared the afternoon show with the Afternoon In The Garden cd. I must admit that I like the sound, it's raw, exciting and powerful. Indeed, Elvis' voice sounds superb, and the drums, bass and JB's guitar are upfront and prominent (unlike on FTD's Live In Memphis where JB's guitar is burried deep in the mix, and I got the impression that everything sounds pretty distant).
While I'm writing this, I'm listening to Reconsider Baby on the afternoon show (PFAP) and the sound is definately not muffled, it is crystal clear and punchy, only the piano is a little bit less audible unfortunately.
While listening to Afternoon In The Garden, I thought that there was nothing wrong with the mix in the first place. The sound is much warmer and spread out, and it is certanly a pleasent listen, but real excitement of the Garden shows, in my opinion, is on Prince From Another Planet.
Also, this is a rare occasion that I don't agree with Mike, but also I can understand his point of view. Compression and the 'wall of sound' can be noisy, but luckily this time I found it enjoyable.
Finaly, It would be interesting to hear Owen Egeland's from 'Elvis In Norway' opinion about the sound quality.

Thanks for your posting your comments KB, which are doubly interesting as we normally agree. Can you advise what sound system you have and even more importantly whether you are listening through headphones?

Also bear in mind I am not comparing it to the '97 Afternoon In The Garden release but to CD 1 of the Operation Big Apple import which I suspect may be the new remix at an ealier stage before Brauer compressed it.


I compared the afternoon show on cd 1 with Afternoon In The Garden simply because thats the only one I got. I didn't buy Operation Big Apple, but it's interesting to hear about the new remix.
Anyway, Mike, I don't have the oportunity to use my Onkyo receiver, Yamaha cd and Dali soundspeakers, so at the moment I'm using Yamaha rx e 810 mini hi-fi system with Yamaha subwoofer. The sound is decent I reckon, not spectacular though. I'm also using Bose headphones.

Re: Prince From Another Planet - Brilliant!

Sat Nov 24, 2012 2:24 pm

KB wrote:Anyway, Mike, I don't have the oportunity to use my Onkyo receiver, Yamaha cd and Dali soundspeakers, so at the moment I'm using Yamaha rx e 810 mini hi-fi system with Yamaha subwoofer. The sound is decent I reckon, not spectacular though. I'm also using Bose headphones.

Rob would be proud of you....I'm also beginning to see a pattern emerging.....interesting.