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How Candidates Scored In Debate --> SF Chronicle

Wed Oct 24, 2012 6:29 am

Here are a couple of intelligent overviews of last night's third and final presidential debates from the award-winning San Francisco Chronicle. Both men are given a close look.


121023_How Candidates Scored In Debate_SF Chronicle pA6.jpg


121023_Debate Check_Lies and half-truths outed_SF Chronicle pA6.jpg
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Re: How Candidates Scored In Debate --> SF Chronicle

Wed Oct 24, 2012 12:31 pm

In other words, Romney is an A-grade ass.

His remarks about having plenty of naval ships pretty much did it. The next question, why doesn't the US have 1 million infantrymen fighting fit and ready?

Re: How Candidates Scored In Debate --> SF Chronicle

Wed Oct 24, 2012 12:45 pm

You're kind of desperate for something to project a positive outlook at the moment aren't you? The opinions of who scored points on what will vary from person to person. So regardless of who says who won, two undeniable facts stand out:

1. Romney needed to make sure that he wasn't incorrectly portrayed as a warmonger and that nothing transpire that would stop the shift going his way. He was almost certainly successful on both counts.

2. Obama needed a game-changer. He didn't get it.

So tell me again. Who won?

Re: How Candidates Scored In Debate --> SF Chronicle

Wed Oct 24, 2012 1:00 pm

dannyboy1 wrote:You're kind of desperate for something to project a positive outlook at the moment aren't you? The opinions of who scored points on what will vary from person to person. So regardless of who says who won, two undeniable facts stand out:

1. Romney needed to make sure that he wasn't incorrectly portrayed as a warmonger and that nothing transpire that would stop the shift going his way. He was almost certainly successful on both counts.

2. Obama needed a game-changer. He didn't get it.

So tell me again. Who won?


Obama.

Re: How Candidates Scored In Debate --> SF Chronicle

Wed Oct 24, 2012 9:43 pm

I am hoping someone who watched will chime in on Richard S. Dunham's analysis of the candidate's goals (first scan), and perhaps make note of the 3-to-2 advantage the Republican challenger had on "lies and half-truths outed" by Joe Garofoli and Carla Marinucci (second scan).

Re: How Candidates Scored In Debate --> SF Chronicle

Wed Oct 24, 2012 9:47 pm

This is an Elvis forum, and Elvis said he preferred to keep his political views to himself.

Re: How Candidates Scored In Debate --> SF Chronicle

Wed Oct 24, 2012 9:52 pm

intheghetto wrote:
WMarkJ wrote:This is an Elvis forum, and Elvis said he preferred to keep his political views to himself.


Where've you been for the last month or so? The server nearly melted down because of all the political debate here. Elvis keeping his views to himself or not, I believe they allow political discussion here. Just be glad you weren't paying attention when the peanut gallery was at its loudest.

My point is intelligent and requires no defense. Bye.

Re: How Candidates Scored In Debate --> SF Chronicle

Wed Oct 24, 2012 9:53 pm

WMarkJ wrote:This is an Elvis forum, and Elvis said he preferred to keep his political views to himself.

And of course you are aware Presley was also asked -- immediately after the question on avoiding the draft -- if other people should keep their views to themselves, and he shook his head "no."

So, I say, right on, Elvis! To each their own is what he said.

Ah, context.

Re: How Candidates Scored In Debate --> SF Chronicle

Wed Oct 24, 2012 9:54 pm

Back on topic, I really am hoping someone who watched the third debate, and was kind enough to read the articles I posted, will chime in on Richard S. Dunham's analysis of the candidate's goals (first scan), and perhaps make note of the 3-to-2 advantage the Republican challenger had on "lies and half-truths outed" by Joe Garofoli and Carla Marinucci (second scan).

Anyone?

Re: How Candidates Scored In Debate --> SF Chronicle

Wed Oct 24, 2012 10:48 pm

By the same measures used to deduce that Romney won the first debate, Obama won the second and third debates.

Any attempt to spin it otherwise is pretty lame conduct.

All the GOPers here crowing after the first one sure quieted down when Obama bested Romney twice in a row.

"Two out of three ain't bad!"

Re: How Candidates Scored In Debate --> SF Chronicle

Thu Oct 25, 2012 2:32 am

It appears that the rest of the world has their head screwed on:

BBC poll: Rest of world favours Obama
A BBC World Service opinion poll has found sharply higher overseas approval ratings for US President Barack Obama than Republican challenger Mitt Romney.

An average of 50% favoured Mr Obama, with 9% for Mr Romney, in the survey of 21,797 people in 21 countries.

Only Pakistan's respondents said they would prefer to see Mr Romney win November's election.

France was the most strongly pro-Obama (72%).

The survey was conducted by GlobeScan/PIPA between 3 July and 3 September.

Full table of results here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-20008687

Re: How Candidates Scored In Debate --> SF Chronicle

Thu Oct 25, 2012 2:38 am

drjohncarpenter wrote:
WMarkJ wrote:This is an Elvis forum, and Elvis said he preferred to keep his political views to himself.

And of course you are aware Presley was also asked -- immediately after the question on avoiding the draft -- if other people should keep their views to themselves, and he shook his head "no."

So, I say, right on, Elvis! To each their own is what he said.

Ah, context.

Wait, doesn't the interview clip after the cut reveal Elvis actually said something on the lines of "no, I, I'd rather not say"..?

Re: How Candidates Scored In Debate --> SF Chronicle

Thu Oct 25, 2012 2:56 am

Matthew wrote:
drjohncarpenter wrote:
WMarkJ wrote:This is an Elvis forum, and Elvis said he preferred to keep his political views to himself.

And of course you are aware Presley was also asked -- immediately after the question on avoiding the draft -- if other people should keep their views to themselves, and he shook his head "no."

So, I say, right on, Elvis! To each their own is what he said.

Ah, context.

Wait, doesn't the interview clip after the cut reveal Elvis actually said something on the lines of "no, I, I'd rather not say"..?

Absolutely not.


Mr. Presley, on the subject of the service, what is your opinion of war protesters, and would you today refuse to be drafted?
Honey, I just, I'd just as soon keep my own personal views about that to myself, because I'm, I'm, I'm just an entertainer and I'd rather not say.

Do you think other entertainers should keep their views to themselves, too?
No. I can't even say that.

Elvis Presley, Friday June 9, 1972
Mercury Ballroom, Hilton Hotel, New York NY

Watch here -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtCjDvulRVU#t=5m45s


As I said -- ah, context.
Last edited by drjohncarpenter on Thu Oct 25, 2012 11:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Re: How Candidates Scored In Debate --> SF Chronicle

Thu Oct 25, 2012 3:23 am

drjohncarpenter wrote:
WMarkJ wrote:This is an Elvis forum, and Elvis said he preferred to keep his political views to himself.

And of course you are aware Presley was also asked -- immediately after the question on avoiding the draft -- if other people should keep their views to themselves, and he shook his head "no."

So, I say, right on, Elvis! To each their own is what he said.

Ah, context.


And to my knowledge, it was the only time he said that. He ENDORSED Adlai Stevenson, had "All The Way With LBJ" lamps all over his house, and suchlike. I think after the sixties, he bowed out, but before that, he was pretty open, and it wasn't any big deal either. Elvis mirrored the times. Until he died, when he could no longer do that . . . he's still dead; we are not.

But that was then, and this is now. Who knows what he'd say in his 70s? He might say nothing, or he might say a lot. We'll never know. But he did say we should go ahead and say whatever we wanted; that's pretty clear.

And he's dead, so he's not the boss of us!

rjm (What does "I can't EVEN say that" mean? Think about it. Someone said the Colonel had a "cough" during the press conference, and was offered a "cough drop." "I can't EVEN say that." Odd way to put it. This is more important, for our purposes, than contemporary politics. Elvis was muzzled.)

P.S. -- One more thing. It was a dumb question, as though all "war protesters" were the same, and so one should have the same opinion of all of them. Here's one:
Image
Last edited by rjm on Thu Oct 25, 2012 3:29 am, edited 2 times in total.

Re: How Candidates Scored In Debate --> SF Chronicle

Thu Oct 25, 2012 3:28 am

Q: Do you think other entertainers should keep their views to themselves too?
A: No, I can't even say that.

Elvis is not saying other entertainers should keep their views to themselves too, he is saying he can't (doesn't want to) answer her question, in the same fashion as her first question regarding his opinions around the draft.

Re: How Candidates Scored In Debate --> SF Chronicle

Thu Oct 25, 2012 4:18 am

I am an Obama supporter...all of these races get tight toward the finish line...I am hopeful Obama gets a second turn, but am concerned that "ultimate politician" Romney has half-truthed his way into this race. We will see.

Re: How Candidates Scored In Debate --> SF Chronicle

Thu Oct 25, 2012 7:29 pm

Matthew wrote:Q: Do you think other entertainers should keep their views to themselves too?
A: No, I can't even say that.

Elvis is not saying other entertainers should keep their views to themselves too, he is saying he can't (doesn't want to) answer her question, in the same fashion as her first question regarding his opinions around the draft.

The first question, Elvis dodges. But with the follow-up, he does not say "I can't answer that." He clearly tells the reporter he would never tell another entertainer to keep their views to themselves. Which is what "WMarkJ" neatly omitted from his curt, dismissive reply. I hope you enjoyed the clip I dug out, marked to the exact spot in the 1972 press conference. I try to never post a fact without knowing what I am talking about first.

---

Back on topic again, I am really interested in hearing from anyone who watched the third debate, and might be willing to read the articles I posted and give their two cents on Richard S. Dunham's analysis of the candidate's goals (first scan), and the "lies and half-truths outed" by Joe Garofoli and Carla Marinucci (second scan).

Re: How Candidates Scored In Debate --> SF Chronicle

Thu Oct 25, 2012 9:11 pm

I had already sought out a clip prior to your post, and after my initial one but it is useful that the clip you found is now in the thread.

I think he is being misquoted, and not be me. There was a lengthy discussion on this topic in recent years if memory serves. The question is not would he tell another entertainer to keep their views to themselves, the question is does he think other entertainers should keep their views to themselves, and he quite clearly declined to give his opinion on that subject - as was his way. We can go round and round on this but the main topic is more important.

Re: How Candidates Scored In Debate --> SF Chronicle

Fri Oct 26, 2012 8:07 am

drjohncarpenter wrote:
Matthew wrote:Q: Do you think other entertainers should keep their views to themselves too?
A: No, I can't even say that.

Elvis is not saying other entertainers should keep their views to themselves too, he is saying he can't (doesn't want to) answer her question, in the same fashion as her first question regarding his opinions around the draft.

The first question, Elvis dodges. But with the follow-up, he does not say "I can't answer that." He clearly tells the reporter he would never tell another entertainer to keep their views to themselves. Which is what "WMarkJ" neatly omitted from his curt, dismissive reply. I hope you enjoyed the clip I dug out, marked to the exact spot in the 1972 press conference. I try to never post a fact without knowing what I am talking about first.

---

Back on topic again, I am really interested in hearing from anyone who watched the third debate, and might be willing to read the articles I posted and give their two cents on Richard S. Dunham's analysis of the candidate's goals (first scan), and the "lies and half-truths outed" by Joe Garofoli and Carla Marinucci (second scan).


Not going to get into parsing Elvis's words there; he knew what he meant by them, and stopped the question, without criticizing anyone else. 'nuff said. I was just concerned that he said "I can't EVEN say that," but maybe it's my own paranoia re Parker. As for parsing his words, further . . . I won't go there. (I'll go a little ways: he said the word "no" with some finality on that follow up, I always thought. There is a pause, and he said "no." Pause. Then he said "I can't even say that." I never thought he was ducking that. Does it matter to anyone, really? Did he even remember it? The question itself was ridiculous, I think. "What do you think of war protestors." It's an offensive question, in lumping all such people together. I can't speak for Elvis, but I would have told her so. "Which ones? Which 'war protesters'?" Because it's a very complex, multi-layered issue. Would Elvis, in the event of a "Vietnam," refuse to be drafted? I doubt it; most of the soldiers came from his original station in life. Whereas many of the protesters came from a group that was troubling to Elvis for deep-seated reasons: middle class college students, who never liked him much. But that's all off-topic.)

As to ON-TOPIC, it was a very reasoned, sort of dry scorecard for a dry debate. I was hoping for more of a fight! I kept tweeting "knock him out!" "Phantom Punch, NOW!" It ought not be that way; it should be reasoned.

And it was scored appropriately, for the most part. I think the memory of the last debate will not leave much of an impression, especially in the shadow of recent events - the newest "rape" comments, and his refusal to condemn. This is serious. The debate was just something to get over with. Romney can smile that beneficent smile all he wants, but other matters give the lie to it.

If Romney loses (the percentages appear in favor of that eventuality), well, "that is something God intended to happen." (Apologies to Stephen Colbert for the cop!)

rjm

Re: How Candidates Scored In Debate --> SF Chronicle

Fri Oct 26, 2012 8:36 am

Obamas apology (condemnation) Tour-

http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/daily/2012/ ... right_here
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Re: How Candidates Scored In Debate --> SF Chronicle

Sat Oct 27, 2012 1:33 am

ian wrote:Obamas apology (condemnation) Tour-

http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/daily/2012/ ... right_here


Wrong, wrong, wrong. Complete lies. Proven lies. GOP BS.

Re: How Candidates Scored In Debate --> SF Chronicle

Sat Oct 27, 2012 9:13 am

ian wrote:Obamas apology (condemnation) Tour-

If you had the courtesy to take three minutes and read the second article I posted on this topic, you would have learned that your hero is willfully publishing lies.

The second article uploaded is 121023_Debate Check_Lies and half-truths outed_SF Chronicle pA6.jpg, and I still am unsure if anyone on this forum took a minute to look at it, or the first one. Each discusses both candidates, not just one over the other. I like that.

Re: How Candidates Scored In Debate --> SF Chronicle

Sat Oct 27, 2012 10:29 am

drjohncarpenter wrote:
ian wrote:Obamas apology (condemnation) Tour-

If you had the courtesy to take three minutes and read the second article I posted on this topic, you would have learned that your hero is willfully publishing lies.

The second article uploaded is 121023_Debate Check_Lies and half-truths outed_SF Chronicle pA6.jpg, and I still am unsure if anyone on this forum took a minute to look at it, or the first one. Each discusses both candidates, not just one over the other. I like that.


Okay, you're right: never really got to the second one. :oops: It too is a reasoned, fair assessment of the dry debate. On each point. Goes into just enough detail to make each point of fact-checking. Reasoned, fair. And dry like the debate.

Let's face it: debates have become big-time entertainment, and people wanted more "zingers." And sucker-punches. Not reasoned truths or reasoned lies. It's been that way since way back when Nixon's face fell off in the '60 debate.

THIS is what people expect! A near-physical confrontation. It's just the truth.

phpBB [video]



rjm