Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Thu Aug 26, 2010 1:43 pm

luckyjackson1: "Uncle Pen" has been rumored to exist for years. Perhaps it was part of the studio experiments that led up to Sun 210. Maybe it suffered the same fate as "Tiger Man": Tried but ultimately abandoned.

Regardless of your personal opinion of the song, its appearance would be an important part of the story of Elvis' time at Sun.

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Thu Aug 26, 2010 3:58 pm

luckyjackson1 wrote:Thanks for the great topic, Doc! Very interesting indeed. I guess I mentioned before that I asked Ernst in 2002 if he found "Tiger Man" from SUN. He actually wasn't too talkative about that... :D

The reason why I asked him about it, was because a friend of mine told me he was almost sure about reading some interview with Ernst in which he confirmed to have "Tiger Man". I don't know if this got mixed up with the 75-Jam or if he really admitted that he found the SUN version. Still a mistery. Hope it will appear one day.

Funny I never cared for "Uncle Pen" because a) I don't like the song
b) don't think this will ever see the light of day smt188

This friend was me :D

Seriously, this is something that has bugged me for a long time: I clearly remember reading in one of Paul Dowling’s interviews with Ernst (around 1999) a statement by Ernst to the effect that he has found Elvis’ Sun recording of Tiger Man. However, for the life of me I can’t find that quote anymore.

The statement I remember was something like “One thing we have found is Tiger Man. We have that on tape and can release it now ...”

The following is currently posted on worldwideelvis.com with regard to Ernst commenting on the Tiger Man situation:

WWE: Did you find anything new about SUN recordings?
ERNST: Only what this Dutch guy told me which was a very interesting piece of information that was under my nose all the time which is that there was a tape called "THAT'S ALRIGHT + 2 other selections" that RCA got from SUN records. It doesn't stipulate whether the two other selections were Elvis or some other artists. Another new finding was that Elvis, in Las Vegas in 1970, kept introducing "Tiger Man" as his second record! Not too many people heard this. I have it on tape! And that was this Dutch guy who came out with that observation so I've had a lot of help from people who gave me little pieces of information here and there.

WWE: So, it seems possible that his second SUN release was planned initially to be "Tiger Man"?
ERNST: Yes, it appears that that might have been the case.


(Link: http://www.wordlwideelvis.com - Go to INTERVIEWS / ERNST JORGENSEN (Feb. 27, 1998 - March 1, 1998))

Did I misinterpret this quote, or did the interview originally contain a quote to the effect described above and was edited later?

Am I nuts? (Well, I probably am, but this is another story ...)

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Thu Aug 26, 2010 4:16 pm

That was the "quote". Seems to me "Tiger Man" never made it to RCA in late 1955. Otherwise Steve Sholes would have made note of it. Btw this is really "left field" but sound forensics can "surface" previously erased recordings to a small degree.

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Thu Aug 26, 2010 5:03 pm

Juan Luis wrote:That was the "quote". Seems to me "Tiger Man" never made it to RCA in late 1955. Otherwise Steve Sholes would have made note of it. Btw this is really "left field" but sound forensics can "surface" previously erased recordings to a small degree.


So if they do that, then all we gotta do is turn the volume right up? :wink:

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Thu Aug 26, 2010 5:04 pm

Thanks, Juan. The more I think about it, the more it seems to me that I might indeed have misread the above quote.

The Tiger Man situation is quite intriguing, isn't it? There must be an acetate somewhere ...

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Thu Aug 26, 2010 5:19 pm

the full sp wrote:
Juan Luis wrote:That was the "quote". Seems to me "Tiger Man" never made it to RCA in late 1955. Otherwise Steve Sholes would have made note of it. Btw this is really "left field" but sound forensics can "surface" previously erased recordings to a small degree.


So if they do that, then all we gotta do is turn the volume right up? :wink:
In theory yes. Btw. Ernst J. a while back heard (stated in interview) via headphones Elvis singing some songs (Pat Boone? in home tapes) I cannot recollect right now but If he heard them there is no question that those songs can be amplified and heard in obviously bad quality BUT are documents of EP's life nevertheless. IMO!
Last edited by Juan Luis on Thu Aug 26, 2010 5:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Thu Aug 26, 2010 5:21 pm

Sebastian E wrote:Thanks, Juan. The more I think about it, the more it seems to me that I might indeed have misread the above quote.

The Tiger Man situation is quite intriguing, isn't it? There must be an acetate somewhere ...
No, Thank you! ::rocks

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Thu Aug 26, 2010 5:23 pm

Sebastian E wrote:
luckyjackson1 wrote:Thanks for the great topic, Doc! Very interesting indeed. I guess I mentioned before that I asked Ernst in 2002 if he found "Tiger Man" from SUN. He actually wasn't too talkative about that... :D

The reason why I asked him about it, was because a friend of mine told me he was almost sure about reading some interview with Ernst in which he confirmed to have "Tiger Man". I don't know if this got mixed up with the 75-Jam or if he really admitted that he found the SUN version. Still a mistery. Hope it will appear one day.

Funny I never cared for "Uncle Pen" because a) I don't like the song
b) don't think this will ever see the light of day smt188

This friend was me :D

Seriously, this is something that has bugged me for a long time: I clearly remember reading in one of Paul Dowling’s interviews with Ernst (around 1999) a statement by Ernst to the effect that he has found Elvis’ Sun recording of Tiger Man. However, for the life of me I can’t find that quote anymore.

The statement I remember was something like “One thing we have found is Tiger Man. We have that on tape and can release it now ...”

The following is currently posted on worldwideelvis.com with regard to Ernst commenting on the Tiger Man situation:

WWE: Did you find anything new about SUN recordings?
ERNST: Only what this Dutch guy told me which was a very interesting piece of information that was under my nose all the time which is that there was a tape called "THAT'S ALRIGHT + 2 other selections" that RCA got from SUN records. It doesn't stipulate whether the two other selections were Elvis or some other artists. Another new finding was that Elvis, in Las Vegas in 1970, kept introducing "Tiger Man" as his second record! Not too many people heard this. I have it on tape! And that was this Dutch guy who came out with that observation so I've had a lot of help from people who gave me little pieces of information here and there.

WWE: So, it seems possible that his second SUN release was planned initially to be "Tiger Man"?
ERNST: Yes, it appears that that might have been the case.


(Link: http://www.wordlwideelvis.com - Go to INTERVIEWS / ERNST JORGENSEN (Feb. 27, 1998 - March 1, 1998))

Did I misinterpret this quote, or did the interview originally contain a quote to the effect described above and was edited later?

Am I nuts? (Well, I probably am, but this is another story ...)


When Ernst mentioned that he has it "on tape", I believe that he is referring to the statement Elvis in August 1970. It is probably one of the statements the Doc posted at the beginning of the thread.

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Thu Aug 26, 2010 5:26 pm

Has anyone ever seen a set-list, or heard mention of a live performance of Tiger Man during the early days?
I completely agree that there must be something to this mystery. Elvis said not too may people heard it, he didn't say nobody heard it.
So, someone heard it somewhere. Would G.K. be of any help? Given his radio connections in Memphis, surely he knows where
to dig for a source of information.

Nikki

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Thu Aug 26, 2010 6:10 pm

Mike C wrote:
Sebastian E wrote:
luckyjackson1 wrote:Thanks for the great topic, Doc! Very interesting indeed. I guess I mentioned before that I asked Ernst in 2002 if he found "Tiger Man" from SUN. He actually wasn't too talkative about that... :D

The reason why I asked him about it, was because a friend of mine told me he was almost sure about reading some interview with Ernst in which he confirmed to have "Tiger Man". I don't know if this got mixed up with the 75-Jam or if he really admitted that he found the SUN version. Still a mistery. Hope it will appear one day.

Funny I never cared for "Uncle Pen" because a) I don't like the song
b) don't think this will ever see the light of day smt188

This friend was me :D

Seriously, this is something that has bugged me for a long time: I clearly remember reading in one of Paul Dowling’s interviews with Ernst (around 1999) a statement by Ernst to the effect that he has found Elvis’ Sun recording of Tiger Man. However, for the life of me I can’t find that quote anymore.

The statement I remember was something like “One thing we have found is Tiger Man. We have that on tape and can release it now ...”

The following is currently posted on worldwideelvis.com with regard to Ernst commenting on the Tiger Man situation:

WWE: Did you find anything new about SUN recordings?
ERNST: Only what this Dutch guy told me which was a very interesting piece of information that was under my nose all the time which is that there was a tape called "THAT'S ALRIGHT + 2 other selections" that RCA got from SUN records. It doesn't stipulate whether the two other selections were Elvis or some other artists. Another new finding was that Elvis, in Las Vegas in 1970, kept introducing "Tiger Man" as his second record! Not too many people heard this. I have it on tape! And that was this Dutch guy who came out with that observation so I've had a lot of help from people who gave me little pieces of information here and there.

WWE: So, it seems possible that his second SUN release was planned initially to be "Tiger Man"?
ERNST: Yes, it appears that that might have been the case.


(Link: http://www.wordlwideelvis.com - Go to INTERVIEWS / ERNST JORGENSEN (Feb. 27, 1998 - March 1, 1998))

Did I misinterpret this quote, or did the interview originally contain a quote to the effect described above and was edited later?

Am I nuts? (Well, I probably am, but this is another story ...)


When Ernst mentioned that he has it "on tape", I believe that he is referring to the statement Elvis in August 1970... .

I agree. But did Ernst originally tell Paul Dowling (possibly in a later interview) that they found a Tiger Man tape and did BMG/RCA for whatever reason instruct Paul to alter the interview? At least that's what I have been suspecting for many years. But I guess my memory just played tricks on me.

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Thu Aug 26, 2010 6:14 pm

I saw one on ebay, it was either a 45 or 78 sun record of Elvis' that had tiger man on it. I thought it was a fake! Was this released?

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Thu Aug 26, 2010 6:15 pm

On page 2 I made a comment... I would like to quote it again because I think it's an interesting theory and would like to know if someone has an opinion about it:

Though he performs the slow version during the aug. 11, 1973 MS after mentioning that the original tempo was "something like this". Food for thought: I enjoy the original Thomas' recording and I don't think it really sounds like that version... So maybe he was actually talking about his own version, his "second record"?


Thoughts? Maybe I'm going "the extra mile", maybe not... I actually think it would be possible that Elvis' "original" Tiger Man was like that, with a tempo similar to "Baby, Let's Play House".

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Thu Aug 26, 2010 8:56 pm

BrandtMichaels wrote:I saw one on ebay, it was either a 45 or 78 sun record of Elvis' that had tiger man on it. I thought it was a fake! Was this released?

It is a counterfiet Sun 45.
The version of "Tiger man" is the live version from 1968 if I recall.
At one time I owned this record.

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Fri Aug 27, 2010 4:11 am

billyblues wrote:... it would be possible that Elvis' "original" Tiger Man was like that, with a tempo similar to "Baby, Let's Play House".

The 1954 recording of "Tiger Man" probably presaged what Sam caught on tape a year later with their incandescent rendition of "Mystery Train."

In the seminal 1955 Presley recording, Elvis, Scotty and Bill took the riffs and uptempo arrangement of Little's Junior Parker's "Love My Baby" (Sun 192) from November 1953 and mashed it up with Parker's stately B-side, "Mystery Train."

Riding on top of it all was, naturally, Elvis' amazing vocal.


ImageImage

SUN 192 Little Junior's Blue Flames
Love My Baby / Mystery Train (November 1953)



It's not inconceivable the boys looked towards Parker's earlier single, "Feelin' Good" (Sun 187) for similar inspiration, with its catchy, repetitive blues lick and cool-as-a-breeze vocal from Junior.

And it was released at the same time as "Tiger Man" (Sun 188), in July 1953.


Image

SUN 187 Little Junior's Blue Flames
Feelin' Good (July 1953)



Image

SUN 188 Rufus Thomas, Jr
Tiger Man (King of the Jungle) (July 1953)



Elvis must have heard, absorbed and loved both of these records.


Images courtesy of Sun Records - the singles --> http://www.boija.com/skivor/sun_singles.htm

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Fri Aug 27, 2010 10:17 am

This topic is becoming better from day to day! I don´t think, TM ever made it to record or acetat, probably it was only one of these try-outs... :wink:

O.S. ::rocks

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Fri Aug 27, 2010 11:17 am

As has been pointed out earlier, the wording of Elvis' announcements in Vegas implies that Tiger Man at least made it to tape. If it was really considered for release, it is also not unlikely that (an) acetate(s) was/were made. Now, the tape may have been erased once it was decided not to release the song. But there is at least some hope that somewhere that acetate is collecting dust ...

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Fri Aug 27, 2010 11:20 am

Now, the tape may have been erased once it was decided not to release the song.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!

BTW, get your a** back to work, man! :D

Let's imagine Ernst already found it years ago on an acetate or tape and keeps it for release on the Sun Project...

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Fri Aug 27, 2010 11:39 am

Well, hasn't Ernst already stated that the Sun book/cd will not contain any unreleased recording of that nature?

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Fri Aug 27, 2010 11:42 am

drjohncarpenter wrote:
billyblues wrote:... it would be possible that Elvis' "original" Tiger Man was like that, with a tempo similar to "Baby, Let's Play House".

The 1954 recording of "Tiger Man" probably presaged what Sam caught on tape a year later with their incandescent rendition of "Mystery Train."

In the seminal 1955 Presley recording, Elvis, Scotty and Bill took the riffs and uptempo arrangement of Little's Junior Parker's "Love My Baby" (Sun 192) from November 1953 and mashed it up with Parker's stately B-side, "Mystery Train."

Riding on top of it all was, naturally, Elvis' amazing vocal.


ImageImage

SUN 192 Little Junior's Blue Flames
Love My Baby / Mystery Train (November 1953)



It's not inconceivable the boys looked towards Parker's earlier single, "Feelin' Good" (Sun 187) for similar inspiration, with its catchy, repetitive blues lick and cool-as-a-breeze vocal from Junior.

And it was released at the same time as "Tiger Man" (Sun 188), in July 1953.


Image

SUN 187 Little Junior's Blue Flames
Feelin' Good (July 1953)



Image

SUN 188 Rufus Thomas, Jr
Tiger Man (King of the Jungle) (July 1953)



Elvis must have heard, absorbed and loved both of these records.


Images courtesy of Sun Records - the singles --> http://www.boija.com/skivor/sun_singles.htm

Those are some of the best records Sam cut. I am sure Elvis heard them and to me there is no doubt that "Tiger Man" would have been something he would have wanted to try out himself. I think the fact that he did it at the 1968 shows plus his 1970 comments reveal that this song represented the Sun era for him.

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Fri Aug 27, 2010 12:56 pm

Very good post, Doc!
You sure were inspired. :wink:
And I just love these early years/lost recordings topics! It makes us think. :mrgreen:
drjohncarpenter wrote:The 1954 recording of "Tiger Man" probably presaged what Sam caught on tape a year later with their incandescent rendition of "Mystery Train."

I agree, but there's some inconsistencies about the "Tiger Man" beign recorded at SUN and/or released:

Sam encouraged Elvis to do uptempo songs for single releases, and wasn't too impressed with slow songs Elvis loved so much. Quoting the liner notes from the Platinum CD box-set of "Blue Moon":
Why did Phillips let Elvis record songs like this (Blue Moon) and "Tomorrow Night" without any intention of releasing them? He said he didn't have the heart to tell Elvis to stop.

I find it very strange that Sam would have taped-over the recording of "Tiger Man," a cool uptempo song, like the ones he wanted Elvis to record... but kept (all or most all) takes of "Harbor Ligths," "I Love You Because," Blue Moon" and the unfinished master of "Tomorrow Night" on tape, this doesn't make much sense to me.
If Elvis indeed recorded a version of "Tiger Man" at SUN, then it must be a one take version and the tape was lost/stolen/misplaced/distroyed/whatever... but the fact that it wasn't even acquired by RCA (they even got that short, one take of "Satisfied") is kinda suspicious... and in the case where they didn't get the tapes, they had the singles releases to make a dub of it.

ekenee wrote:And its worth noting that Elvis doesn't make any mention of this Sun recording during
the 1968 rehearsal or the actual taping of the show.
Strange, because Steve Binder encouraged Elvis to talk and tell stories about his
good old days. It's funny he didn't mention anything, he just launched into it
with all his might.

This caught my attention too... In the case of "Tiger Man," he just started singing it, jamming à-la "Baby, What You Wat Me To Do?," with no explanation whatsoever... and the quote "There's no ending to this song" (or something like that) makes me think of two possibilities: a) He was just jamming with a song he liked and probably played at home, so it really has no end prepared to it, he just stop playing it... or b) If he recorded that song at SUN, the end had a fade out to it, à-la "Mystery Train."

It's also strange that Elvis' wasn't documented singing "Tiger Man" live in the '50s, specially between 1954 and 1955, when he needed some uptempo songs to include to the few songs in his catalogue back then...
He included songs such as "Tweedle Dee" ad "Maybellene" to increase his live repertoire, yet "Tiger Man," a cool, uptempo song he allegedly recorded or at least rehearsed wasn't even mentioned... until 1970 (and unheard until 1968.)!

One could say Sam maybe released a test single of "Tiger Man" to see people's response to it, as he did with "My Baby's Gone" ("I'm Left, You're Right, She's Gone" - Slow Version), but then they only re-did the song on a faster pace, just because of that... Sam wanted uptempo songs, where people would feel and live the rhythm... in the case of "Tiger Man" it's exactly that, pure rhythm and fun, the lyrics weren't even important here, so why make a just test disc of a song Sam would clearly release as a single? I can only think a very poor mediocre rendition... but with Elvis and the Blue Moon Boys at SUN, they couldn't go wrong on uptempo songs, even on harder tracks as "Milkcow Blues Boogie."

So, the only evidence we have are Elvis comments at the end of August, 1970 (never before and never after)...
But he we would consider that "evidence," then "Cattle Call" was his his biggest hit... and also his last one too...
Or his black-and-white Disney underground documental is still missing...
The only thing we have to figure is why he said it so serious... but in is "Life Story" monologue he repeated night after night that he went to SUN records to make a record for his own use, and then "the guy" called him about a year and a half later and put the record out! And Elvis is talking seriously there too, so we could have also asumed his first "commercial" record was "My Happiness..."
Yet the "not too many people heard it" sentence makes me think he was maybe using some kind of serious humor in it...
Image

Only time will tell... hopefully :wink:

...oh, and all of this is IMHO :mrgreen:

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Fri Aug 27, 2010 2:21 pm

Let's imagine Ernst already found it years ago on an acetate or tape and keeps it for release on the Sun Project...

THAT would be a cool surprise!... Too good to be true.

I guess we have to ask Ernst for the final word.
I think we should be told !

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Fri Aug 27, 2010 2:30 pm

Well, hasn't Ernst already stated that the Sun book/cd will not contain any unreleased recording of that nature?


I guess so... :oops: :cry: :evil:

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Fri Aug 27, 2010 11:55 pm

luckyjackson1 wrote:Let's imagine Ernst already found it years ago on an acetate or tape and keeps it for release on the Sun Project...

Ernst cannot release something he does not have, unfortunately.



Mike Eder wrote:
drjohncarpenter wrote:The 1954 recording of "Tiger Man" probably presaged what Sam caught on tape a year later with their incandescent rendition of "Mystery Train."

In the seminal 1955 Presley recording, Elvis, Scotty and Bill took the riffs and uptempo arrangement of Little's Junior Parker's "Love My Baby" (Sun 192) from November 1953 and mashed it up with Parker's stately B-side, "Mystery Train."

Riding on top of it all was, naturally, Elvis' amazing vocal.


ImageImage

SUN 192 Little Junior's Blue Flames
Love My Baby / Mystery Train (November 1953)



It's not inconceivable the boys looked towards Parker's earlier single, "Feelin' Good" (Sun 187) for similar inspiration, with its catchy, repetitive blues lick and cool-as-a-breeze vocal from Junior.

And it was released at the same time as "Tiger Man" (Sun 188), in July 1953.


Image

SUN 187 Little Junior's Blue Flames
Feelin' Good (July 1953)



Image

SUN 188 Rufus Thomas, Jr
Tiger Man (King of the Jungle) (July 1953)



Elvis must have heard, absorbed and loved both of these records.


Images courtesy of Sun Records - the singles --> http://www.boija.com/skivor/sun_singles.htm

Those are some of the best records Sam cut. I am sure Elvis heard them and to me there is no doubt that "Tiger Man" would have been something he would have wanted to try out himself. I think the fact that he did it at the 1968 shows plus his 1970 comments reveal that this song represented the Sun era for him.

Absolutely correct.



JimmyCool wrote:It's also strange that Elvis' wasn't documented singing "Tiger Man" live in the '50s, specially between 1954 and 1955, when he needed some uptempo songs to include to the few songs in his catalogue back then...

Not so strange. There are many songs done in those years that will at long last be documented upon publication of FTD's Sun book project.

JimmyCool wrote:He included songs such as "Tweedlee Dee" ad "Maybellene" to increase his live repertoire, yet "Tiger Man," a cool, uptempo song he allegedly recorded or at least rehearsed wasn't even mentioned... until 1970 (and unheard until 1968.)!

The same could be said of Sun outtakes "My Baby's Gone," "Harbor Lights" or "When It Rains, It Really Pours," or the discovery of "Fool, Fool, Fool," all generally unknown until 1970 or long after.

JimmyCool wrote:So, the only evidence we have are Elvis comments at the end of August, 1970 (never before and never after)...
But he we would consider that "evidence," then "Cattle Call" was his his biggest hit... and also his last one too...

This comment makes no sense. A one-off rehearsal jam, in this example an old Eddy Arnold hit, is not unlike something he often did in such situations. The significance of Elvis' repeated "Tiger Man" statements to a paying audience, and the importance of their context, has been made very clear.

JimmyCool wrote:The only thing we have to figure is why he said it so serious...

That has also been made very clear.

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Sat Aug 28, 2010 4:13 am

DJC wrote:

"There are many songs done in those years that will at long last be documented upon publication of FTD's Sun book project."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Define "many".

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Sat Aug 28, 2010 3:46 pm

Ernst cannot release something he does not have, unfortunately.


Yeah.

"If I can dream of more songs from SUN..." :D

At least we can look forward to a fantastic book, and as a bonus we get some great unreleased live-recordings from that period and (hopefully) every single second that has been recorded at 706 Union Avenue between July 18(?) 1953 and November 15(?) 1955 and is still existing on tape. Maybe there's more. Somewhere. Let's hope so.