Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Wed Aug 25, 2010 1:58 pm

By the way: Another greeeeeeeeaaaaaaaat topic! Thanks, Doc!

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Wed Aug 25, 2010 2:02 pm

Elvis said "not too many people heard it". That leads me to think a few people (Elvis close friends at the time) and some people close to Sam Philips had access to this song.
And one of these "lucky" people held this material all these years.

I believe that a "Tigerman" version from 1954 does exist.

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Wed Aug 25, 2010 2:17 pm

The fact that Scotty can't remember it doesn't really prove anything to me. I was in a band for a few years, but we split up about 12 years ago. Listening back to the many cassettes I have of us practicing, I often hear snippets or full songs that I don't remember doing. And that's only from 12 years ago. We're talking 56 years ago here..
When you're playing so regularly, and with a wide range of material, it's easy to forget..

Also, I doubt Elvis was confusing Mystery Train with Tiger Man for the following reason - He often played them back to back. One would assume that would give his memory a shake if he had been mixing them up..

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Wed Aug 25, 2010 2:25 pm

Great thread Doc! I thought EP mentioned the "second record" only once!

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Wed Aug 25, 2010 2:26 pm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jq03SZnEtW4

Don't forget that Elvis recorded a 1:15 version of this at Sun, as evidenced in the first "Legendary Performer" LP booklet.

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Wed Aug 25, 2010 2:37 pm

TONY wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jq03SZnEtW4

Don't forget that Elvis recorded a 1:15 version of this at Sun, as evidenced in the first "Legendary Performer" LP booklet.

Thanks Tony! Happy to learn something new today. Had no idea "Satisfied" was a Gospel song! Imagined it was some slow number! :lol:

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Wed Aug 25, 2010 2:49 pm

I find the evidence presented here in support of a possible Elvis SUN version of “Tiger Man” shaky at best. Elvis was often hopelessly inaccurate when describing events from his career. Just listen to the life story from ’69, or his references to various songs over the years, e.g. “Trying To Get To You” – “A song I did about 18 years ago” (June, ’77). Certainly in light of the fact that people like Scotty Moore and Sam Phillips have consistently denied that the song was recorded at SUN, I think more solid evidence is necessary. After all, this is not just any song… This is a song recorded by a Memphis artist on the SUN label – certainly one of them would have remembered Elvis recording it.

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Wed Aug 25, 2010 3:01 pm

Thanks for putting all the comments Elvis made together in one post. It does not seem he was jesting. Ever since I saw a home movie of one of the Aug 1970 shows where Elvis says this I have been intrigued. I would bet he did cut it.

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Wed Aug 25, 2010 3:03 pm

Rock Legend wrote:I find the evidence presented here in support of a possible Elvis SUN version of “Tiger Man” shaky at best. Elvis was often hopelessly inaccurate when describing events from his career. Just listen to the life story from ’69, or his references to various songs over the years, e.g. “Trying To Get To You” – “A song I did about 18 years ago” (June, ’77). Certainly in light of the fact that people like Scotty Moore and Sam Phillips have consistently denied that the song was recorded at SUN, I think more solid evidence is necessary. After all, this is not just any song… This is a song recorded by a Memphis artist on the SUN label – certainly one of them would have remembered Elvis recording it.

Well, no one asked (as far as I know) Bill Black. Maybe it might be worth hunting down old interviews when he presided over his "Bill Black Combo"...

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Wed Aug 25, 2010 5:56 pm

Great post,Doc.

I think it is entirely possible that “Tiger Man” could have been recorded during the studio adventures that led to Sun 210. Of the reels of tape that Sam Phillips turned over to RCA, several derived from this time period, with songs like “Blue Moon”, “Tomorrow Night”, “I’ll Never Let You Go”, “Satisfied”, and “Just Because” surviving on tape at the time Elvis signed with RCA. Maybe “Tiger Man” was taped during this time and did not survive.

It seemed like Sam and Elvis followed a process at Sun something like this:
1. A lot of songs were tried out, suggested by both Elvis and Sam. Some survived on tape, but some were most likely taped over.
2. Several takes were recorded until Sam heard the proper “feel”.
3. Sam would make an acetate and test it out with local DJs like Dewey Phillips at WHBQ and Sleepy Eyed John at WHHM.
4. Based on the advice he received, Sam would either release the record or go back to step 1.

Based on the audio evidence from this time period, it seems like Elvis and Sam spent a lot of time in the studio to come up with something as spontaneous as Sun 209. “Good Rockin’ Tonight” certainly sounds spontaneous, but the number of unreleased songs from this era tell a different tale.

It’s a little bit off topic, but almost nothing (including the master tapes) survived from the next record—“Milkcow Blues Boogie” and “You’re A Heartbreaker”. Since nothing from this time period was passed to RCA, there is always a possiblility that something could emerge. The early 1955 acetate of “Fool,Fool,Fool” and “Shake, Rattle, and Roll” was a great discovery and indicative of songs that Elvis may have tried out in the studio in that time frame, but no Sun tapes of these or any other songs from this era have surfaced thus far.

Even though the likelihood of a new tape or acetate from Elvis during his Sun era gets smaller and smaller as time progresses, we can always hope (and pray, if so inclined) for some new discoveries to make an appearance on the FTD Sun Project.

Why not “Tiger Man”?

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Wed Aug 25, 2010 6:01 pm

Elvis also sang "Little Mama" and "Rock around the clock" on the Hayride broadcasts in 1955. These exist, but you can bet they will not turn up anytime soon!! :cry:

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Wed Aug 25, 2010 6:52 pm

I wonder if its possible if Sam and Elvis attemtped to cut Tiger Man as the B-side to "That's All Right". We know they ran through several songs until they hit on Blue Moon of KY, following the repsonse to TAR on Dewey Phillips' show. Perhaps, they cut a version between July 6-9 and Sam thought of originally using this as the first B-side. Like TAR, it would be R&B cover in the new Presley style. In light of the hectic pace to find a B-side, this is why Scotty does not remember running it down.

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Wed Aug 25, 2010 7:53 pm

Mike C wrote:I wonder if its possible if Sam and Elvis attemtped to cut Tiger Man as the B-side to "That's All Right". We know they ran through several songs until they hit on Blue Moon of KY, following the repsonse to TAR on Dewey Phillips' show. Perhaps, they cut a version between July 6-9 and Sam thought of originally using this as the first B-side. Like TAR, it would be R&B cover in the new Presley style. In light of the hectic pace to find a B-side, this is why Scotty does not remember running it down.


Mike C: Interesting thought...

In Jerry Hopkins' initial Elvis biography, Scotty talked about trying several songs--and didn't think any of them were on tape--before Bill Black started clowning around on "Blue Moon of Kentucky" with Elvis joining in. Maybe "Tiger Man" could have been one of those songs.

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Wed Aug 25, 2010 7:55 pm

Great thread, thanks Doc!

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Wed Aug 25, 2010 7:57 pm

memfisking wrote:Maybe it does exist, i certainly hope so, but just because Elvis mentions it 6 times in such a short period doesn't confirm anything. If he had mentioned it throughout the 70's, as it was performed quite a number of times, then i think that would add more credibility to your theory.
Remember "Hound Dog" and "Softly As I Leave you", he had a story to tell before those as well. I think that when something stuck in Elvis' mind before a paticular song he just repeated it for awhile.

Should we believe the story of "Softly..." just because Elvis repeated it quite a few times before the song was performed?


As mentioned many times before on this forum, Elvis truly believed the "Softly As I Leave You" story. He didn't just deliberately lie or make it up to add dramatic effect - that wasn't Elvis' style. He only performed it because the story touched him so much he felt compelled to share it with his audiences. An interview with the songwriter Hal Shaper proves this, as he says Jerry Vale had told Elvis it was true and it ran from there, and in the end, it appears nobody had the heart to tell Presley it wasn't actually true after performing it numerous times in Las Vegas and once in Memphis. Either that or simply nobody around Presley knew or cared, which is the most likely scenario

Here's a link to the article -- http://www.independent.co.uk/news/obituaries/hal-shaper-549354.html

And here's the comment itself from Mr. Shaper -- "Elvis Presley had gone to Las Vegas and heard Jerry Vale singing "Softly as I Leave You". Jerry told Elvis that the songwriter had scribbled down this note on his deathbed. Elvis believed this to be true, and the song became a great favourite of his. When Elvis did it on stage for a live album, he said that I wrote the song on my deathbed. I never wanted to correct him as he might have stopped singing it."

And your point about "Hound Dog"? Are you referring to the jokes about "looking the girl square in the eye" etc. Well clearly that's a joke, a very funny one for the fans. It becomes tedious for us after listening to it hundreds of times on different shows, but if you only ever saw Elvis on a handful of times, or maybe only once, it would be a humouros moment. It certainly was for me the first time I heard it - on the "All Shook Up" FTD.

--

Back on topic though; I'm of the opinion "Tiger Man" was recorded or at least tried out at SUN. Another theory that needs more highlighting is the fact that "Tiger Man" was included during the '68 Special as part of the "Jam" segment. Primarily, this Jam was about going back to the old days - with Elvis and the guys performing all his old classics and mainly focusing on his days at SUN and first few years at RCA. Songs that were performed and/or rehearsed (at least in some form) for this sit-down segment from Elvis' SUN days include...(and there could have been more rehearsals?)

"That's All Right"
"Blue Moon of Kentucky"
"When It Rains, It Really Pours"
"Trying to Get to You"
"That's When Your Heartaches Begin"
"Blue Moon"

and...
"I Got a Woman" was also rehearsed, a song that Elvis performed live during the SUN days and is rumoured to have been tried out at SUN too around the same time Elvis recorded "Baby, Let's Play House" - although as we all know it ended up being the first song he recorded when he went to RCA.

So from the rehearsals we have, and the 2 shows during June 27th 1968, we know Elvis returned to a lot of his SUN material here.

The only songs actually performed in the Sit-Down segments of the '68 special that weren't actually recorded by Elvis back in the day are "Baby, What You Want Me to Do" and "Tiger Man". We all know "Baby, What You Want Me to Do" was a favourite song of Elvis' that he'd been having a lot of fun jamming with for a few years now -- but what about "Tiger Man"? It seems strange that Elvis added a fairly obscure 1953 single from another artist into this segment of the show. "Baby, What You Want Me to Do" was like Elvis' own little fun number, that he kept returning to during these sessions - it was like his song of the moment. But why "Tiger Man"? Coupled with the information we have from Elvis repeatedly referring to this as his second record that didn't get heard by too many people, then I think it's safe to assume this was recorded at SUN.

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Wed Aug 25, 2010 9:06 pm

Great topic,

Regarding finding a 'B' side to 'That's All Right,Mama', Scotty Moore stated
"We went through song after song,just running through them,I don't think any of them were ever put on tape".
Until they came across 'Blue Moon Of Kentucky',

Page 64 That's Alright,Elvis by Scotty Moore.

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Wed Aug 25, 2010 9:42 pm

drjohncarpenter wrote:

There are a few more standalone versions of "Tiger Man" known from the summer 1970 engagement:

August 18 MS
August 23 DS
August 24 MS

Does anyone have access to these?
And if so, can they transcribe his introduction of the song?

Ciscoking?


John. 18.8.70 MS is wrongly dated and identical with 19.8.70 DS.

On August 23rd he only refers to a song he "recorded when I first started out". This show was available first on "The Hillbillycat Live" vinyl (not dated) and then on CDR Ferocious In Vegas (wrongly dated MS).

August 24, MS is in fact the DS and is available on "The Night Elvis Sang When The Snow Is On The Roses (wrongly dated MS). There he clearly speaks of his "second song that I recorded".

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Wed Aug 25, 2010 10:13 pm

Rtn 2 Sndr wrote:I think it is entirely possible that “Tiger Man” could have been recorded during the studio adventures that led to Sun 210. Of the reels of tape that Sam Phillips turned over to RCA, several derived from this time period, with songs like “Blue Moon”, “Tomorrow Night”, “I’ll Never Let You Go”, “Satisfied”, and “Just Because” surviving on tape at the time Elvis signed with RCA. Maybe “Tiger Man” was taped during this time and did not survive.

It seemed like Sam and Elvis followed a process at Sun something like this:
1. A lot of songs were tried out, suggested by both Elvis and Sam. Some survived on tape, but some were most likely taped over.
2. Several takes were recorded until Sam heard the proper “feel”.
3. Sam would make an acetate and test it out with local DJs like Dewey Phillips at WHBQ and Sleepy Eyed John at WHHM.
4. Based on the advice he received, Sam would either release the record or go back to step 1.

Based on the audio evidence from this time period, it seems like Elvis and Sam spent a lot of time in the studio to come up with something as spontaneous as Sun 209. “Good Rockin’ Tonight” certainly sounds spontaneous, but the number of unreleased songs from this era tell a different tale.

Love this section of your post -- totally spot-on!


Mike C wrote:I wonder if its possible if Sam and Elvis attempted to cut Tiger Man as the B-side to "That's All Right".

Possible, yes, but less likely because Elvis calls "Tiger Man" his "second record" (i.e. post-Sun 209), and because Sam wanted something less R&B and more Country for the flip side of Sun 209.


Ciscoking wrote:
drjohncarpenter wrote:There are a few more standalone versions of "Tiger Man" known from the summer 1970 engagement:

August 18 MS
August 23 DS
August 24 MS

Does anyone have access to these?
And if so, can they transcribe his introduction of the song?

Ciscoking?

John. 18.8.70 MS is wrongly dated and identical with 19.8.70 DS.

On August 23rd he only refers to a song he "recorded when I first started out". This show was available first on "The Hillbilly Cat Live" vinyl (not dated) and then on CDR Ferocious In Vegas (wrongly dated MS).

August 24, MS is in fact the DS and is available on "The Night Elvis Sang When The Snow Is On The Roses (wrongly dated MS). There he clearly speaks of his "second song that I recorded".

Excellent!

Including his statements from the August 23 DS and the August 24 DS, we now have EIGHT known instances of Elvis performing a standalone version of "Tiger Man" and referring to it as something cut at Sun, circa 1954.

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Wed Aug 25, 2010 10:14 pm

Rtn 2 Sndr wrote:
Mike C wrote:I wonder if its possible if Sam and Elvis attemtped to cut Tiger Man as the B-side to "That's All Right". We know they ran through several songs until they hit on Blue Moon of KY, following the repsonse to TAR on Dewey Phillips' show. Perhaps, they cut a version between July 6-9 and Sam thought of originally using this as the first B-side. Like TAR, it would be R&B cover in the new Presley style. In light of the hectic pace to find a B-side, this is why Scotty does not remember running it down.


Mike C: Interesting thought...

In Jerry Hopkins' initial Elvis biography, Scotty talked about trying several songs--and didn't think any of them were on tape--before Bill Black started clowning around on "Blue Moon of Kentucky" with Elvis joining in. Maybe "Tiger Man" could have been one of those songs.


Thanks...I try. To me that would make more logical sense and may better explain the "not too many people heard it" remark.

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Thu Aug 26, 2010 1:08 am

I think what "Rtn 2 Sndr" touched upon is the most likely hypothesis. "Tiger Man" probably had a few discs cut or whatever, and given to a few of the local DJ's who likely reviewed it and didn't give it the thumbs-up for Sam. I'm sure this is what happened to "I'm Left, You're Right, My Baby's Gone" wasn't it? With that one what probably happened was they went back to the song at another date, the lyrics/title had been altered and it was recorded in a more up-beat and country style. Luckily though, the recording of the original (and better) bluesy version remains. I think it's likely the same happened to "Tiger Man" judging by Elvis' comments that it was his "second record but not too many people heard it" except that they gave up on it.

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Thu Aug 26, 2010 3:42 am

another disc noone had known bout that turned up after my happiness was i'll never stand in your way acetate.
how was it found? tiger man may have been a acetate given to someone by ep?

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Thu Aug 26, 2010 3:50 am

ritchie valens wrote:tiger man may have been a acetate given to someone by ep?


That's a good possibility. Elvis claims "not too many people heard it".

My best guess is Sam Philips made copies and sent it to local DJ's. Or Elvis gave it to close friends at the time. And these would be the "not too many people heard it" which Elvis refers in August 1970.

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Thu Aug 26, 2010 4:33 am

Didn't Elvis also make this statement about the second song he recorded at his run in Vegas from August 1969 when he played "Mystery Train/Tiger Man"?

DJL

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Thu Aug 26, 2010 5:25 am

DJL wrote:Didn't Elvis also make this statement about the second song he recorded at his run in Vegas from August 1969 when he played "Mystery Train/Tiger Man"?

DJL

IIRC, no.

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Thu Aug 26, 2010 10:12 am

Thanks for the great topic, Doc! Very interesting indeed. I guess I mentioned before that I asked Ernst in 2002 if he found "Tiger Man" from SUN. He actually wasn't too talkative about that... :D

The reason why I asked him about it, was because a friend of mine told me he was almost sure about reading some interview with Ernst in which he confirmed to have "Tiger Man". I don't know if this got mixed up with the 75-Jam or if he really admitted that he found the SUN version. Still a mistery. Hope it will appear one day.

Funny I never cared for "Uncle Pen" because a) I don't like the song
b) don't think this will ever see the light of day smt188