Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Sat Jan 28, 2012 7:43 am

TJ wrote:The reason my comments were on topic is that all we have to support the idea of a "Tiger Man" acetate is Elvis' comments. That's it. There's no other evidence.

*Sigh*

It's like a broken record.

Supporting evidence:
- Introductions, at least eight known, where Elvis is specific, sober and earnest about a "second record" that "not a lot of people heard"
- Introductions that always frame a stand-alone performance of "Tiger Man"
- Introductions that are unprecedented then, or after, in his stage career

Additional supporting information:
- Sam Phillips auditioned songs for DJs, who sometimes played them on-air using Sam's private acetates
- Sam Phillips actively encouraged Elvis to consider recent Sun R&B singles for recording (e.g. "Mystery Train," "When It Rains It Pours")
- Elvis' inclusion of "Tiger Man" in his June '68 small combo rehearsals and performances, previously-unknown as a Presley-related track, in a set devoted to the "sound that I had back then"

All of this has already been discussed on this topic, and all of it is extremely relevant.

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Sat Jan 28, 2012 7:49 am

I wonder if Joan Deary ever pursued this. Perhaps during hey lengthy search of Graceland.

Did no-one ever query Sam Phillips?

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Sat Jan 28, 2012 7:59 am

drjohncarpenter wrote:
Additional supporting information:
- Sam Phillips auditioned songs for DJs, who sometimes played them on-air using Sam's private acetates
- Sam Phillips actively encouraged Elvis to consider recent Sun R&B singles for recording (e.g. "Mystery Train," "When It Rains It Pours")
- Elvis' inclusion of "Tiger Man" in his June '68 small combo rehearsals and performances, previously-unknown as a Presley-related track, in a set devoted to the "sound that I had back then"

All of this has already been discussed on this topic, and all of it is extremely relevant.


A couple of comments:

1. Has anyone in Sam Phillips' family catalogued his personal collection of tapes and acetates? I recall that several years ago NPR did a special on Sam Phillips and played selections from some Memphis Recording Service acetates, including one that featured Knox and Jerry Phillips during their childhood. If something that obscure and personal survived, who knows what may be tucked away somewhere. While I am sure that Sam's family cooperated with Ernst on this project, who knows what might be tucked away in a closet or box. An Elvis acetate like "Tiger Man" could be found one of these days.

2. Sam may have encouraged Elvis to record some of the Sun R&B classics because he loved the songs. However, Sam also owned partial writing credits on several of these songs and could make some extra money if Elvis hit it big with a rerecording of a Sun R&B tune.

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Sat Jan 28, 2012 9:03 am

drjohncarpenter wrote:
TJ wrote:The reason my comments were on topic is that all we have to support the idea of a "Tiger Man" acetate is Elvis' comments. That's it. There's no other evidence.

*Sigh*

It's like a broken record.

Supporting evidence:
- Introductions, at least eight known, where Elvis is specific, sober and earnest about a "second record" that "not a lot of people heard"
- Introductions that always frame a stand-alone performance of "Tiger Man"
- Introductions that are unprecedented then, or after, in his stage career

Additional supporting information:
- Sam Phillips auditioned songs for DJs, who sometimes played them on-air using Sam's private acetates
- Sam Phillips actively encouraged Elvis to consider recent Sun R&B singles for recording (e.g. "Mystery Train," "When It Rains It Pours")
- Elvis' inclusion of "Tiger Man" in his June '68 small combo rehearsals and performances, previously-unknown as a Presley-related track, in a set devoted to the "sound that I had back then"

All of this has already been discussed on this topic, and all of it is extremely relevant.


And I'd already considered that evidence when writing my replies. Elvis' comments are the only solid evidence. The rest is circumstantial. His decision to sing it in '68 is definitely interesting, but hardly a slam dunk considering he also ripped into "Baby What You Want Me To Do" a bunch of times.

Taken together, the "additional supporting information" helps paint a picture and highlights how the song could have been recorded and remained unheard. The fact that it could have been, doesn't mean it was though.

Anyway, we aren't miles apart on this. I recognise it as a possibility and you are more convinced. Not a biggie.

Do try to avoid another *sigh* though. It's a tad dismissive and doesn't exactly encourage debate.

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Sat Jan 28, 2012 3:40 pm

drjohncarpenter wrote:Sam would have made an acetate for audition and quiet airplay on DJ Dewey Phillips' WHBQ radio program. He did it right after he captured "That's All Right," and the response confirmed his feeling it could be a successful release for Sun.

Perhaps spins of "Tiger Man" across an evening or two did not set the WHBQ phones a-ringing in the same fashion, so Sam cooled on the idea of it being a candidate for Sun 210. And this would not only explain the existence of an acetate but also Elvis calling it his "second record" that "not a lot of people heard."

Thank you.

Now I think that is a distinct possibility.
I can understand Elvis 'misremembering' some things from time to time but surely not what his second record was!

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Sat Jan 28, 2012 6:48 pm

drjohncarpenter wrote:- Elvis' inclusion of "Tiger Man" in his June '68 small combo rehearsals and performances, previously-unknown as a Presley-related track, in a set devoted to the "sound that I had back then"


Agreed.

"Tiger Man" and "Baby, What You Want Me to Do" are the two anomolies in the small combo jam performances Elvis gave in June 1968. The shows were designated for Elvis to revisit his old classic songs, but these 2 of course were not Elvis songs at all.

"Baby, What You Want Me to Do" is an explainable anomaly though, for the following reasons. It is now well documented that the song had long been a personal favourite of Elvis' - with stories of him jamming on the song with Ann-Margret in 1963 (half-inspiring the last minute decision to record "What'd I Say" as an up-beat contemporary R&B song for the Viva Las Vegas soundtrack), rumours of 1966 Home Recordings of Elvis playing the song with the guys, and of course the now famous 1968 dressing room jams that Steve Binder overheard, where Elvis and the guys would play this song over and over.

Steve realised that this was a song Elvis felt comfortable with and just 'felt'. Presley loved the driving R&B groove and Elvis had played the song in private so many times and became so comfortable with it, that it was almost like it was one of his songs. When it came to the actual sit-down shows that were to be performed, some kind of a basic format to the show was produced so Elvis could have some structure and not have to go out there and totally 'wing it'. There were sections in the show where Elvis would talk about certain topics, and a loose setlist of his classic 1950s songs. In addition, I recall an interview where Steve Binder actually recalls telling Elvis to perform "Baby, What You Want Me to Do" at any time in the concerts if he wanted to, to make himself more comfortable and evoke that same kind of feelingthey had in their private dressing room jams. Of course it turned out that these renditions became one of, if not the highlight of the jams.

So this leaves "Tiger Man" as the real odd-one out, because this was seemingly a random song thrown in by Elvis for a section devoted to his classic 1950s era and sound. Personally, I think I know why.

I think this is just another factor that points to the notion that Elvis recorded "Tiger Man" at Sun.

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Sat Jan 28, 2012 7:03 pm

Good Time Charlie wrote:"Tiger Man" and "Baby, What You Want Me to Do" are the two anomolies in the small combo jam performances Elvis gave in June 1968. The shows were designated for Elvis to revisit his old classic songs, but these 2 of course were not Elvis songs at all.

"Baby, What You Want Me to Do" is an explainable anomaly though, for the following reasons. It is now well documented that the song had long been a personal favourite of Elvis' - with stories of him jamming on the song with Ann-Margret in 1963 (half-inspiring the last minute decision to record "What'd I Say" as an up-beat contemporary R&B song for the Viva Las Vegas soundtrack), rumours of 1966 Home Recordings of Elvis playing the song with the guys, and of course the now famous 1968 dressing room jams that Steve Binder overheard, where Elvis and the guys would play this song over and over.

Baby What You Want Me To Do was also pencilled in to be recorded, at the cancelled Aug. 22/23, 1967, Hollywood sessions, GTC.

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Sat Jan 28, 2012 7:09 pm

elvisalisellers wrote:
Good Time Charlie wrote:"Tiger Man" and "Baby, What You Want Me to Do" are the two anomolies in the small combo jam performances Elvis gave in June 1968. The shows were designated for Elvis to revisit his old classic songs, but these 2 of course were not Elvis songs at all.

"Baby, What You Want Me to Do" is an explainable anomaly though, for the following reasons. It is now well documented that the song had long been a personal favourite of Elvis' - with stories of him jamming on the song with Ann-Margret in 1963 (half-inspiring the last minute decision to record "What'd I Say" as an up-beat contemporary R&B song for the Viva Las Vegas soundtrack), rumours of 1966 Home Recordings of Elvis playing the song with the guys, and of course the now famous 1968 dressing room jams that Steve Binder overheard, where Elvis and the guys would play this song over and over.

Baby What You Want Me To Do was also pencilled in to be recorded, at the cancelled Aug. 22/23, 1967, Hollywood sessions, GTC.


Yes, thanks! Forgot to mention that.

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Sat Jan 28, 2012 8:37 pm

Just playing devils advocate, maybe, just maybe, if Elvis recorded Tiger Man in 54/55, or whenever, Sam didn't like his version, thus maybe taped over it?

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Sat Feb 18, 2012 1:40 am

Here's the transcript regarding "Tiger Man" from the great but obsolete Fred L. Worth & Steve D. Tamerius book "Elvis His Life From A to Z", published in 1988 (to be found on page 483):

"Tiger Man" was written by Joe Hill Louis and Sam Burns and recorded by Louis on November 17, 1952. His recording was not released. In 1953 Rufus Thomas recorded "Tiger Man" at Sun Records, with Joe Hill Louis playing guitar. Thomas's recording, which mentioned "hound dog" and "bearcat" in the lyrics, did not chart. Kenneth Banks played bass on both versions.
Some have speculated that Elvis recorded "Tiger Man" at Sun Records, but that has not been substantiated. Elvis did sing "Tiger Man" in concert on a number of occasions, usually in medley with "Mystery Train". The August 17, 1969 rebroadcast of the "Elvis" TV special used "Tiger Man" as a replacement for "Blue Christmas," which was sung in the original December 3, 1968 telecast. An August 10, 1970, performance at the International Hotel in Las Vegas was used in the documentary Elvis - That's The Way It Is.

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Sat Feb 18, 2012 5:02 am

drjohncarpenter wrote:
TJ wrote:The reason my comments were on topic is that all we have to support the idea of a "Tiger Man" acetate is Elvis' comments. That's it. There's no other evidence.

*Sigh*

It's like a broken record.

Supporting evidence:
- Introductions, at least eight known, where Elvis is specific, sober and earnest about a "second record" that "not a lot of people heard"
- Introductions that always frame a stand-alone performance of "Tiger Man"
- Introductions that are unprecedented then, or after, in his stage career

Additional supporting information:
- Sam Phillips auditioned songs for DJs, who sometimes played them on-air using Sam's private acetates
- Sam Phillips actively encouraged Elvis to consider recent Sun R&B singles for recording (e.g. "Mystery Train," "When It Rains It Pours")
- Elvis' inclusion of "Tiger Man" in his June '68 small combo rehearsals and performances, previously-unknown as a Presley-related track, in a set devoted to the "sound that I had back then"

All of this has already been discussed on this topic, and all of it is extremely relevant.


Doc, to add to your additional supporting information:

- The acetate of the slow version of "I'm Left, You're Right, She's Gone" - why was this acetate even created? - The same scenario that originally happened with "That's All Right" and disc jockey Dewey Phillips and the same scenario that was proposed by you that may have happened to any acetate of "Tiger Man." - to get radio listeners reactions.

Has Ernst ever asked Dewey's children if they have any of their father's belongings? It's possible that Dewey may have held onto the acetate for sentimental reasons.

Daryl

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Sat Feb 18, 2012 5:18 am

Regarding the two "anomalous" songs from the '68 jams. They have a deep connection, especially when you hear Elvis doing the "slow"er version of "Tiger Man" in a sound sample here, and he gets irritated at the band: "sound like a buncha rabbits." He KNEW the Joe Hill Louis version, because that was buried, absolutely buried until years after Elvis was dead.

Now, you have to go back and really listen to Louis's first stab at "Tiger Man." (It has a great extra verse, too, about the nighttime.) Listen to the guitar. Then listen to Elvis's workout on "Baby, What You Want Me To Do." Now, they're both - originally - in a similar style, in any event, but still. First time you hear Louis going up and down like that, it hits you. It hits you! I can't begin to speculate as to the circumstances under which Elvis heard him. But he heard him. That is just unassailable, in my view.

This doesn't sound exactly like the earliest one on my Sun Box, vinyl. He did it more than once, so if you can make a correction, feel free. But it'll do.

phpBB [video]



And I think Doc has a lotta guts, for an empiricist like himself, to step out on this limb! Or he really feels assured about it, and he usually doesn't feel assured about such things. And this thread got me in here, like it or not. I was reading what he had to say, and listening to the sound samples (they do play over a 56K modem!), and I did have one on vinyl, but you can barely hear it, and this was just incredible, and I was all excited! I signed up. I forget if I heard the samples before or after: I think you had to sign up; not sure. What IS this place??? "Oh brave new world," I thought, "that has such people in it"!

Keep diggin'!

rjm
::rocks

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Sat Feb 18, 2012 6:21 am

I think something happened in that week in august 1970 that made elvis think that. maybe someone said something to him or whatever. He never mentioned that before then or after. we may never know for sure.

no one has ever thought to ask the other guys that were there? they may be old but they might remember.

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Sat Feb 18, 2012 11:07 am

Correct me if I'm wrong - was there any TV movie or series where a young Elvis at SUN actually played "Tiger Man"?
Or was it just the guy on stage in Britain in TTWII?


It's in 'Elvis The Movie'.

Truck-driver Elvis has it playing on the radio, which is interesting in itself because the movie plays (rather sucessfully I feel) with a lot of Presley myths and legends.
Last edited by George Smith on Sat Feb 18, 2012 5:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:25 pm

Thank you George, for reminding me - of course it was the Carpenter/Russell vehicle!
it's been almost twenty-five years since I watched that movie for the last time.

I checked out my copy of the DVD (I actually never watched) and there's the short scene at 34:20 (lasts for about half a minute).
My, what a crappy movie... :D :wink:
I like Kurt Russell but his overacting grinning all the time makes me turn my guts inside out (similar to the whining performance of Jonathan Rhys-Myers).

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Sat Feb 18, 2012 5:06 pm

Actually, I really rather like the movie and feel that it is still the best overall film-version of the Elvis story.

Each to his own, sir !

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Sat Feb 18, 2012 5:23 pm

George Smith wrote:Actually, I really rather like the movie and feel that it is still the best overall film-version of the Elvis story.

Each to his own, sir !

This might be true, George - which shows that there's still a decent biopic about the life of Elvis Presley to be done!

To be fair, I might give it one more chance and watch it again in its entirety in the not too distant future. :wink:

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Sun Feb 19, 2012 12:18 am

rjm wrote:He KNEW the Joe Hill Louis version, because that was buried, absolutely buried until years after Elvis was dead.

This is incorrect. As should be very clear by now, Elvis became acquainted with "Tiger Man" from Rufus Thomas' single, issued as Sun 188 in the summer of 1953.

The Joe Hill Louis clip you posted is a second unreleased recording of "Tiger Man," cut at 706 Union on September 9, 1953 -- two months AFTER Sun 188 hit the stores and radio. It features Mose Vinson on piano and backing vocals, and Walter Horton on harmonica. Like the first version by Louis, it officially stayed in the vault for 32 years, until this 1985 Sun box: Sun Records: The Blues Years (Sun Box 105)

The first Joe Hill Louis recording was cut November 17, 1952, with Joe supported by Willie Nix on drums and Albert Williams on piano. It was left unreleased by Sam Phillips. Additional research shows this outtake popped up twenty-three years later, on an obscure, 1975 Dutch bootleg:


Image
Image

Various Artists, "706 Blues" (Redita LP-111, 1975)


Page 6 of this topic covered this ground in detail.

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Sun Feb 19, 2012 2:16 am

Elvis' live "Tiger Man" flashback in August of 1973 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ojo0KrB0g44
Last edited by Blue River on Sun Feb 19, 2012 7:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Sun Feb 19, 2012 4:48 am

Blue River wrote:Elvis' live "Tiger Man" flashback in '75 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ojo0KrB0g44

This clip was already cited on page 12. It's not "from an August 1975 Las Vegas show," but rather the 8-11-1973 MS.

As noted, this not really "slow." The song is still in 4/4 time, and what we hear is simply an unrushed rendition of "Tiger Man," which mirrors not only Sun 188 but also quite likely the 1954 recording Elvis made at 706 Union.

Here's the sequence, in context:

Mystery Train - Tiger Man --> typical "Elvis rushed tempo"
Saturday, August 11, 1973 MS

http://ciscoking.jordans-elvis-world.com/cds/audio/stream/aug_11_73_ms_imp/17.ram

Tiger Man ("slow" version) --> normal tempo
Saturday, August 11, 1973 MS

http://ciscoking.jordans-elvis-world.com/cds/audio/stream/aug_11_73_ms_imp/18.ram

Thanks to Ciscoking for the Real Audio samples.

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Sun Feb 19, 2012 6:58 am

it's interesting that in the 68 special and in august 1973 he never mentions anything. only during that week in august 1970. then it was put back in a medley with Mystery Train never to be mentioned again. we'll probably never no the truth.

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Sun Feb 19, 2012 6:59 am

""""""""""""""""""""but also quite likely the 1954 recording Elvis made at 706 Union.""""""""""""""""""""""

We have gone from speculation to fact ?


There is absolutely no proof whatsoever that Elvis Presley recorded Tiger Man at SUN.

No hard copy, no paperwork, no recollection from Scotty Moore, no comment ever made by Sam or Marion.



Now re are speculating how Elvis would have sung the song had he recorded it.

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Sun Feb 19, 2012 7:28 am

drjohncarpenter wrote:
Blue River wrote:Elvis' live "Tiger Man" flashback from August 1973 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ojo0KrB0g44

This clip was already cited on page 12. It's not "from an August 1975 Las Vegas show," but rather the 8-11-1973 MS.

Now corrected... thanks drjohn.


::rocks

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Sun Feb 19, 2012 8:51 am

drjohncarpenter wrote:
Blue River wrote:Elvis' live "Tiger Man" flashback in '75 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ojo0KrB0g44

This clip was already cited on page 12. It's not "from an August 1975 Las Vegas show," but rather the 8-11-1973 MS.

As noted, this not really "slow." The song is still in 4/4 time, and what we hear is simply an unrushed rendition of "Tiger Man," which mirrors not only Sun 188 but also quite likely the 1954 recording Elvis made at 706 Union.

Here's the sequence, in context:

Mystery Train - Tiger Man --> typical "Elvis rushed tempo"
Saturday, August 11, 1973 MS

http://ciscoking.jordans-elvis-world.com/cds/audio/stream/aug_11_73_ms_imp/17.ram

Tiger Man ("slow" version) --> normal tempo
Saturday, August 11, 1973 MS

http://ciscoking.jordans-elvis-world.com/cds/audio/stream/aug_11_73_ms_imp/18.ram

Thanks to Ciscoking for the Real Audio samples.


THANKS!!! That doesn't begin to describe it. smt125

Anyway, he was so dissatisfied! He should have grabbed Wilkinson's electric, and played the damn song! (And then gone right into "Baby, What You Want Me To Do.")

rjm
P.S. -- I had said that it was likely not the recording from '52, that I have on my Sun Box, but "it'll do." And that "normal" is some kinda word. Never mind the precise tempo; there were two distinct approaches, and Louis co-wrote (at least) the song, and Elvis said this other approach was "normal." Does normal come after abnormal? That's what I meant.
P.P.S. -- Another possibility, and you'll like this one, Doc! Maybe "normal" meant the way he did it! If indeed, he did it, which I think he did. My brain cells are coming back to life after the other day! (I still have a warm place in my heart for Joe Hill Louis, and hope that he heard him at some point. He was on that first "Philips" effort, and so he made the Sun Rise. And such a tragic story, too. I just hope he lived on inside the boy who perhaps did his song in that studio, and did do it later.)

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Sun Feb 19, 2012 2:40 pm

At least it haunted him some twenty years after the 1954 recording Elvis made at 706 Union --> see March 12, 1975.

I wonder if they jammed "Tiger Man" before "T-R-O-U-B-L-E" or afterwards. Before would make sense because they were warming up - afterwards because they were still "hyped up" by Jerry Chestnut's country rocker. From the files it seems they did it after "T-R-O-U-B-L-E".