Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Thu Jan 26, 2012 1:04 pm

Renan wrote:I see three possibilities:

1) -> Elvis never sang / rehearsed the song in Sun;

2) -> Elvis jammed the song with Bill and Scotty while in Sun Records but the performance was never caught on tape by Sam Phillips;

3) -> Elvis version of Tigerman was recorded and survived all these years and it is hidden somewhere in this big world.

I want to believe in option number 3 but unfortunately I think the number 2 option is very probable.

And yes, it is known his mind was not so accurate about his early days but in this case, Elvis repeats too many times the story so I guess it is safe to assume he was confident in his words for the public.

But I would love to be surprised. :wink:



I too,..think that option 2 is most likely..although option 3 would be fantastic..

I think ..he got something about this song in his mind..and truely believed he rememberd correctly
about this being his second record...but Elvis and dates is something you have to take with reservations..
at least during the concert years...I don`t doubt that there was something with this song..but as long as we don`t have a definite proof..all is speculation...it could be the second song they rehearsed or jammed..yes..it could be cut as his second record..all is possible..

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Thu Jan 26, 2012 2:37 pm

drjohncarpenter wrote:
promiseland wrote:Doc I do believe you are correct that Elvis did this song with Scotty and Bill in '54/'55 as with 14 pages of interest from this topic.

Thank you.


luckyjackson1 wrote:Elvis also said during the 68 Comeback Special that "the very first thing" he recorded was "That's All Right" - another misrememberance of course.

No, it's not.

What Elvis is quite correctly saying is that the song was his first available recording.

If you review the previous pages of this topic, it has been clearly established that:

- When he cared, Elvis' memory was like an elephant's (e.g. talking to June Juanico in 1969)
- Stage comments were quite accurate when recounting something important to him (e.g. 1969 monologues)
- His introductions of "Tiger Man" in mid-August 1970 were consistently delivered, and pointed

Yeah, that's right. Of course he was talking about his first available recording - sorry, my fault.
About time to watch the Comeback Special again! :D

Would have been easier for us if Elvis said specificially that he "did" (I mean, recorded) "Tiger Man", "but the guy never put the record out" (or: "I made a little demonstration record while at SUN").
As we all know, this is unfortunately not the case. I'm no expert in the "Live" Elvis, but: are there any shows (especially from the August '70 period) that aren't available in any form yet?

I'm convinced Elvis of course said this for a reason. Maybe he performed it indeed live in the 50's, in front of not-too-many people. But the acetate assumption is the one I want to believe in. Maybe it's still hidden somewhere in Sam Philips' legacy. Let's not hope it's true that Sam recorded it over because they thought it was not good enough.

Well, in the end we have the slow 1975 jam... and that one surfaced at least!!! :roll:

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Thu Jan 26, 2012 6:51 pm

Renan wrote:I see three possibilities:

1) -> Elvis never sang / rehearsed the song in Sun;

2) -> Elvis jammed the song with Bill and Scotty while in Sun Records but the performance was never caught on tape by Sam Phillips;

3) -> Elvis version of Tigerman was recorded and survived all these years and it is hidden somewhere in this big world.

I want to believe in option number 3 but unfortunately I think the number 2 option is very probable.

And yes, it is known his mind was not so accurate about his early days but in this case, Elvis repeats too many times the story so I guess it is safe to assume he was confident in his words for the public.

But I would love to be surprised. :wink:



I'm with version 3! His own statement countless times was...The second record i recorded! Thats the evidence in his own words. There's to much speculation with some fans putting words and thoughts into his head ie.......he probably thought it was his second record but he only jammed it, or he only sung it live etc.........There is no evidence he jammed it back at sun and i think i'm right in saying there is no evidence he sang it live, but we do have evidence from the man himself that this was a second record he recorded but for some unknown reason we dont know the history surrounding its creation and fate?

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Thu Jan 26, 2012 8:15 pm

draig goch wrote:I'm with version 3! His own statement countless times was...The second record i recorded! Thats the evidence in his own words ... we do have evidence from the man himself that this was a second record he recorded ...

Exactly right. This is Point #1.

Any of the arguments to the contrary willfully ignore all I have brought to the table on this topic.

Point #2 is: does it still exist on an acetate somewhere?

Point #3 is: does someone have it and if so, are they reading my pleas to release it?

Where there's life, there's hope.

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Thu Jan 26, 2012 8:27 pm

draig goch wrote:
I'm with version 3! His own statement countless times was...The second record i recorded! Thats the evidence in his own words.


On June 25, 1973 In Pittsburgh...Elvis congrats the Colonel to his birthday...
..so we change the date into June 25,..cause Elvis said so.
"Thats the evidence in his own words.".... :wink:

Please don`t get me wrong, friends..but I honestly think we should take
such remarks with reservations and not for granted. Elvis and dates or
occasions is "difficult"..and often be taken too serious.

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Fri Jan 27, 2012 2:06 am

Ciscoking wrote:
draig goch wrote:
I'm with version 3! His own statement countless times was...The second record i recorded! Thats the evidence in his own words.


On June 25, 1973 In Pittsburgh...Elvis congrats the Colonel to his birthday...
..so we change the date into June 25,..cause Elvis said so.
"Thats the evidence in his own words.".... :wink:

Please don`t get me wrong, friends..but I honestly think we should take
such remarks with reservations and not for granted. Elvis and dates or
occasions is "difficult"..and often be taken too serious.



Point taken, but the Tigerman statement he made many times. Why would he make such a statement? surely he cant be referring to a song he jammed or sung live, he must have jammed hundreds of songs back in the sun days so why did he constantly keep referring to Tigerman as a second record? Perhaps it was never recorded at sun? maybe he recorded it as a demo at another studio or radio station?......just a thought!

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Fri Jan 27, 2012 2:24 am

Ciscoking wrote:On June 25, 1973 In Pittsburgh...Elvis congrats the Colonel to his birthday...
..so we change the date into June 25,..cause Elvis said so.
"Thats the evidence in his own words.".... :wink:

Please don`t get me wrong, friends..but I honestly think we should take
such remarks with reservations and not for granted. Elvis and dates or
occasions is "difficult"..and often be taken too serious.

*Sigh*

No one has suggested changing any facts because of an erroneous stage comment.

Your example has zero context.

You use a one-off comment, made by a performer who, in June 1973, was about to nearly die of an overdose three days later. A comment made about someone who he had no respect for, and would soon fire.

"The last nine months with Elvis [1973], we had three ODs; it was unbelievable." ... Vernon Presley, who from other accounts had kept his distance from his son's drug problems, witnessed some of these overdoses, Caughley said, including a near-fatal one in St. Louis.

Charles C. Thompson II & James P. Cole, Robert Hale, The Death of Elvis: What Really Happened (New York: Delacorte Press, 1991), p. 323-324


As I just summarized on page 15 of this topic:

If you review the previous pages of this topic, it has been clearly established that:

- When he cared, Elvis' memory was like an elephant's (e.g. talking to June Juanico in 1969)
- Stage comments were quite accurate when recounting something important to him (e.g. 1969 monologues)
- His introductions of "Tiger Man" in mid-August 1970 were consistently delivered, and pointed



What is unclear about the above?

.

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Fri Jan 27, 2012 10:38 am

John..nothing is unclear...I even helped you by collecting these shows where he states this.
I`d be more than happy if it was true..but we don`t have a definite proof..

When I read this ...

drjohncarpenter wrote:
You use a one-off comment, made by a performer who, in June 1973, was about to nearly die of an overdose three days later. A comment made about someone who he had no respect for, and would soon fire.


I have to remind you that Rick Rennie stated he had to cut out Love Me Tender on his recording of August 19, 1970 DS caùse Elvis just walked and talked nonsense and the audience started to booh ..reportedly during Polk Salad Annie he fell on the floor....cause he was high as a kite....so when he talked bull in 1973 cause of drug abuse ..he did in in 1970, too...so this argument don`t count..

Please correct me if I am wrong.

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Fri Jan 27, 2012 1:41 pm

Ciscoking wrote:I have to remind you that Rick Rennie stated he had to cut out Love Me Tender on his recording of August 19, 1970 DS caùse Elvis just walked and talked nonsense and the audience started to booh ..reportedly during Polk Salad Annie he fell on the floor....cause he was high as a kite....so when he talked bull in 1973 cause of drug abuse ..he did in in 1970, too...so this argument don`t count..

Please correct me if I am wrong.

Yes, you are wrong.

First of all, you will find few -- if any -- knowledgeable fans, friends or medical professionals who will agree with your claim that Elvis' physical state in August 1970 was no different in June 1973.

Secondly, your Rennie story is exaggerated and somewhat misremembered. I have posted Rick's direct quotes on this event at least twice on this forum, go find them.

Thirdly, what you you cite from the Rennie tape is another ONE-OFF example. Does this refute the consistent statements, from multiple evenings, presented on this topic? No, it doesn't.

The whole point is this act is unprecedented in the Presley career. This makes it significant.

Please, if you're going to debate, at least put up a credible argument.

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Fri Jan 27, 2012 2:04 pm

drjohncarpenter wrote:

First of all, you will find few -- if any -- knowledgeable fans, friends or medical professionals who will agree with your claim that Elvis' physical state in August 1970 was no different in June 1973.



I didn`t say it was no different, John...but "it" happened.."it" was already obvious at times in 1970. So your argument about Elvis mixing up dates because of drug abuse in 1973 can count as well for 1970.
So when he was wrong about Parkers birthday in 1973 (a date that he should know for almost 20 years and that happened every year)..he can easily be wrong with his "second record", too.

But it`s now leading to a wrong way. I`d be more than happy if a recording of Tiger Man surfaced...
Your thread is very interesting, John..in any case..and leaves room for speculation in any direction.

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Fri Jan 27, 2012 2:28 pm

I'd like to believe Elvis was right and the repeated mentions do add weight to his recollections, but like other instances where he failed to accurately recall his early career I still have my doubts. Hopefully there will be some proof one day that it happened and we will all get to hear it.

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Fri Jan 27, 2012 3:18 pm

This is an intriguing possibility and it's been a great thread. I find myself unable to form a firm conclusion though.

The trouble is that Elvis is often an unreliable source of information about his own career. The fact that he repeated the claim many times does add some credibility, but even then we unfortunately have a very good example of Elvis repeating incorrect information night after night the previous summer, and sounding plausible doing so. In the August 1969 season he kept telling the audience that while he was a truck driver he made a record for his own use and that the guy (Sam Phillips) put it out 18 months later. He's very clear about that and very wrong. A quick check shows that he made that comment on:

3 Aug, 1969 DS
21 Aug, 1969 MS
23 Aug, 1969 MS
24 Aug, 1969 DS
24 Aug, 1969 MS
26 Aug, 1969 MS

Those were just the shows I had in easy reach, but I expect he also said it in a bunch of other shows.

Was he misremembering what actually happened or simply providing a simplified version? Hard to say, but it does show that we need to treat what Elvis said on stage with caution, even if said repeatedly.

I'm really not trying to pour cold water on the idea that Elvis recorded "Tiger Man" at Sun, because I do regard it as a genuine possibility. Certainly it seems that Elvis associated the song with the early days. I just think that Elvis' comments aren't solid enough evidence to be sure either way. The question is, are there stones left unturned that might back up Elvis' comments?

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Fri Jan 27, 2012 3:34 pm

Excellent posting which mirrors my thoughts exactly..... ::rocks

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Fri Jan 27, 2012 3:43 pm

Another interesting thought is that all of Elvis' Sun masters were released prior to the dates Doc quoted Elvis as saying "Tiger Man was his second record" , EXCEPT his actual second record "I Don't Care If The Sun Don't Shine" , which made it's debut on the "Sun Sessions" LP unexpectedly six years later in 1976.

Perhaps maby he knew all of his Sun masters were released except that one song side from his second record (I Don't Care If The Sun Don't Shine) and thought maby he could make some think that missing release was really "Tiger Man" (that Sam may have rejected) since very few people would not have heard it unless they had the original Sun 210 45/78.

Just another possible theary...

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Fri Jan 27, 2012 5:25 pm

Unfortunately I have to mention again that still my first thought on this behalf is Elvis messed it up with "Mystery Train". Can't tell you why. Maybe because it was my very first assumption.

Even IF he recorded it while at SUN and the acetate could be lost forever: there's one comfort, because at least we have his great '68 performance to cherish and enjoy. And I don't think even the SUN recording could top this one (artistically - I'm not talking about the historical significance!).

Have a great weekend!

Lucky :smt006

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Fri Jan 27, 2012 9:16 pm

Ciscoking wrote:I didn`t say it was no different, John...but "it" happened.."it" was already obvious at times in 1970. So your argument about Elvis mixing up dates because of drug abuse in 1973 can count as well for 1970.
So when he was wrong about Parkers birthday in 1973 (a date that he should know for almost 20 years and that happened every year)..he can easily be wrong with his "second record", too.

Your logic is convoluted and your argument superficial. I did my best.

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Fri Jan 27, 2012 9:27 pm

Elvis did drive a truck...and did have a hit record 18 months (or so later) with RCA...maybe he mixed up somethings in the timeline, but they all did happen. For instance, its not like he never drove a truck...when Elvis says TigerMan was his second record, maybe he confused the order of the records, but I believe he did record this song in Sun's studio.
TJ wrote:This is an intriguing possibility and it's been a great thread. I find myself unable to form a firm conclusion though.

The trouble is that Elvis is often an unreliable source of information about his own career. The fact that he repeated the claim many times does add some credibility, but even then we unfortunately have a very good example of Elvis repeating incorrect information night after night the previous summer, and sounding plausible doing so. In the August 1969 season he kept telling the audience that while he was a truck driver he made a record for his own use and that the guy (Sam Phillips) put it out 18 months later. He's very clear about that and very wrong. A quick check shows that he made that comment on:

3 Aug, 1969 DS
21 Aug, 1969 MS
23 Aug, 1969 MS
24 Aug, 1969 DS
24 Aug, 1969 MS
26 Aug, 1969 MS

Those were just the shows I had in easy reach, but I expect he also said it in a bunch of other shows.

Was he misremembering what actually happened or simply providing a simplified version? Hard to say, but it does show that we need to treat what Elvis said on stage with caution, even if said repeatedly.

I'm really not trying to pour cold water on the idea that Elvis recorded "Tiger Man" at Sun, because I do regard it as a genuine possibility. Certainly it seems that Elvis associated the song with the early days. I just think that Elvis' comments aren't solid enough evidence to be sure either way. The question is, are there stones left unturned that might back up Elvis' comments?

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Fri Jan 27, 2012 9:33 pm

Jarle Jensen wrote:
If this had been math, your report card would have shown an F when refering to the rules for implication, that is really what I am saying. But maybe it is the theorist in me, but I am not convinced at all by this. And trying to explain the theory behind equivalence and implication is way off topic. Yes it is interesting to read and speculate. But that's all it is at the moment, speculations.



This sums up this conversation. It is all just speculations. Yes, it is fun and interesting to speculate, but it is not fun when some people represent guesses as facts and start arguing about the "truth"...
Last edited by Albert Goldman on Sat Jan 28, 2012 12:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Fri Jan 27, 2012 9:50 pm

TJ wrote:This is an intriguing possibility and it's been a great thread. I find myself unable to form a firm conclusion though.

The trouble is that Elvis is often an unreliable source of information about his own career. The fact that he repeated the claim many times does add some credibility, but even then we unfortunately have a very good example of Elvis repeating incorrect information night after night the previous summer, and sounding plausible doing so. In the August 1969 season he kept telling the audience that while he was a truck driver he made a record for his own use and that the guy (Sam Phillips) put it out 18 months later. He's very clear about that and very wrong.

*Sigh*

It's not an example at all.

Beyond every point presented on these many pages, some more than once, you show no sense of interpretation. A literal examination of all of Elvis' stage comments is a fallacious conceit, as it disregards context.

Elvis is not "very wrong." What we have in those 1969 discourses is someone who is simply conflating the general event of how he was discovered. Elvis was not introducing a specific song, he was telling a story about how he began.

Yet, even in your argument a closer look reveals more. The path from July 1953's "My Happiness" to July 1954's "That's All Right" is a very short one, and in fact the session for "That's All Right" wasn't even a session at all but a rehearsal. And, as we know, the guy recorded and "put it out" two weeks later. The event of his discovery is about as whirlwind as he tells the audience. And if you actually pay close attention to the bulk of what is said in these 1969 monologues, they prove to be very honest, and revelatory.

Back on topic, there is no refuting the unprecedented, pointed and serious introductions to "Tiger Man" -- unusually done all by itself, no medley -- in August 1970.

We gotta get that acetate out -- somehow, someway.

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Sat Jan 28, 2012 12:24 am

If an acetate was ever made!

I am warming to the thought that Tiger Man may have been a rehearsal, tryout or actual recording made at the "Blue Moon" session.

It does not seem credible that only one song was attempted at this session when Sam Phillips would be seeking new single material.

If so, the recording, if made was rejected by Sam and the tape reused. There would be no particular reason for an acetate to be made even if a final master was completed.

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Sat Jan 28, 2012 12:40 am

KiwiAlan wrote:I am warming to the thought that Tiger Man may have been a rehearsal, tryout or actual recording made at the "Blue Moon" session.

Yes!

KiwiAlan wrote:There would be no particular reason for an acetate to be made even if a final master was completed.

Here's a reason:

Sam would have made an acetate for audition and quiet airplay on DJ Dewey Phillips' WHBQ radio program. He did it right after he captured "That's All Right," and the response confirmed his feeling it could be a successful release for Sun.

Perhaps spins of "Tiger Man" across an evening or two did not set the WHBQ phones a-ringing in the same fashion, so Sam cooled on the idea of it being a candidate for Sun 210. And this would not only explain the existence of an acetate but also Elvis calling it his "second record" that "not a lot of people heard."

Thank you.

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Sat Jan 28, 2012 12:59 am

A acetate for Dewey could be possible.

But it is a big jump from the rumour of a recording to an actual acetate.

Somehow I don't see Sam promoting a cover (for a single) of Rufus Thomas minor hit less than a year after the original

Perhaps it was Elvis second record literally, a private acetate, this would explain Scotty Moore not remembering it and Elvis' comments.

It is a mystery and I am rather dissapointed that Ernst is not pursueing any information. It would make a stellar factor for the Sun project.

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Sat Jan 28, 2012 1:49 am

Correct me if I'm wrong - was there any TV movie or series where a young Elvis at SUN actually played "Tiger Man"?
Or was it just the guy on stage in Britain in TTWII?

Maybe I messed it up - somehow I have the image of Michael St. Gerard in my head... I'm confused now.

By the way, I just found this list here:
http://www.imdb.com/list/dUB2JBaX0YE/

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Sat Jan 28, 2012 3:01 am

drjohncarpenter wrote:
Sam would have made an acetate for audition and quiet airplay on DJ Dewey Phillips' WHBQ radio program. He did it right after he captured "That's All Right," and the response confirmed his feeling it could be a successful release for Sun.

Perhaps spins of "Tiger Man" across an evening or two did not set the WHBQ phones a-ringing in the same fashion, so Sam cooled on the idea of it being a candidate for Sun 210. And this would not only explain the existence of an acetate but also Elvis calling it his "second record" that "not a lot of people heard."

Thank you.


An interesting scenario...

It would make sense that Elvis, Scotty, and Bill attempted another song before or after "Blue Moon" was captured on tape on August 19, 1954. Perhaps the "Blue Moon" reel contains a clue.

It was already apparent from the many reels of tape expended in August and September 1954 (and who knows what was tried and not taped) that a great deal of thought and care was given to a follow-up to Sun 209. If Sam Phillips tested an acetate of "Tiger Man" on WHBQ with disappointing results, it begs the question of whether any other recordings were tested in this fashion during the summer of 1954.

It must have been a great relief for Sam and Elvis when "Good Rockin' Tonight" was captured on tape. It was a magic moment that belied all of the hard work since Sun 209.

Yet the larger question of the existence (or survival) of an acetate of "Tiger Man" remains unanswered. Let's remain hopeful...

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Sat Jan 28, 2012 6:12 am

drjohncarpenter wrote:
TJ wrote:This is an intriguing possibility and it's been a great thread. I find myself unable to form a firm conclusion though.

The trouble is that Elvis is often an unreliable source of information about his own career. The fact that he repeated the claim many times does add some credibility, but even then we unfortunately have a very good example of Elvis repeating incorrect information night after night the previous summer, and sounding plausible doing so. In the August 1969 season he kept telling the audience that while he was a truck driver he made a record for his own use and that the guy (Sam Phillips) put it out 18 months later. He's very clear about that and very wrong.

*Sigh*

It's not an example at all.

Beyond every point presented on these many pages, some more than once, you show no sense of interpretation. A literal examination of all of Elvis' stage comments is a fallacious conceit, as it disregards context.

Elvis is not "very wrong." What we have in those 1969 discourses is someone who is simply conflating the general event of how he was discovered. Elvis was not introducing a specific song, he was telling a story about how he began.

Yet, even in your argument a closer look reveals more. The path from July 1953's "My Happiness" to July 1954's "That's All Right" is a very short one, and in fact the session for "That's All Right" wasn't even a session at all but a rehearsal. And, as we know, the guy recorded and "put it out" two weeks later. The event of his discovery is about as whirlwind as he tells the audience. And if you actually pay close attention to the bulk of what is said in these 1969 monologues, they prove to be very honest, and revelatory.

Back on topic, there is no refuting the unprecedented, pointed and serious introductions to "Tiger Man" -- unusually done all by itself, no medley -- in August 1970.

We gotta get that acetate out -- somehow, someway.


The reason my comments were on topic is that all we have to support the idea of a "Tiger Man" acetate is Elvis' comments. That's it. There's no other evidence. So in getting to the truth, the logical step is to consider whether or not Elvis was usually accurate when talking about his early career. If he'd always been spot on with his recollections, it would strengthen the Aug, 1970 claims, but the reverse is also true. For a balanced debate, we can't give credence to June's observations about Elvis' good memory, but discount clear examples of him getting things repeatedly wrong. Both go into the mix .

I realise that you think the 1969 comments can be discounted on the grounds that he was simply conflating the events of 1953/54, and I also noted that possibility in my original post. However, that is conjecture. We can't be sure. If Elvis' recollection of the specifics really was poor, he could have similarly mixed up the "Tiger Man" facts, eg the song might not have got beyond the rehearsal stage and, therefore, there might not be an acetate to be heard. What if it was a song that Elvis had single ambitions for but others didn't agree?

Like I said, it has been a cool thread. Before the thread, I never really thought much of Elvis' pre-"Tiger Man" comments, as I assumed he was probably just mixing up the song with "Mystery Train" and misremembering the order of his Sun singles. That now seems less likely and I am inclined to think that "Tiger Man" was in some way part of the Sun story. I just think we need more evidence before assuming that it was definitely recorded.