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Re: The Concert Sinatra reissue

Fri Jul 13, 2012 2:37 am

One of the websites that the Doc links to has the same information as Greystoke originally put forward: that the album entered the charts on June 2nd. It could not have done this if it was released in June, meaning that it had to have been issued in late May.

http://www.the-main-event.eu/musik/sinatraindencharts/reprisealbenbillboardcharts.html

Re: The Concert Sinatra reissue

Fri Jul 13, 2012 2:44 am

drjohncarpenter wrote:
greystoke wrote:
drjohncarpenter wrote:
poormadpeter wrote:If ...

It seems you reference a book you yourself do not possess.  Thanks for sharing.

People may make up their own minds on the release date:
- Contemporaneous articles and ads from the #1 music weekly
- Secondhand declarations from a book no one owns

The choice is pretty clear.


Or we could just read the back cover of the Warner Bros./Reprise CD release that says "LP originally released May, 1963."

Yes!  How easy was that?

You are certainly knowledgeable enough to well know that major label CD reissues are not infallible.  So to suggest this statement is definitive is a bit cavalier.  Think of the miscues we know from following Elvis CDs on RCA, BMG, Sony or FTD.

I'm a stickler for facts and historical accuracy.  This topic cited no chronology of any kind until my input.  Additional research I've posted here strongly implies a June release. 

Reprise had been sold to Warner Brothers just prior to the releases seen in the above June 1963 ad, and the label was all about getting better numbers at retail than what had gone down since 1960.  So a May 1963 release would strongly imply May 1963 publicity and push from the Reprise sales department.  But I could find none.

If anyone -- besides me -- is able to produce something credible and definitive to support an earlier release date, bring it on.

::rocks


It was very easy because it's the obvious place to find such information, however, there's no shortage of literature both found in Sinatra box sets and several highly regarded books that cite May, 1963 as the release date of The Concert Sinatra.

But you're certainly correct in stating that there was no chronology cited on this thread prior to your input -- which, I'm sure, was started - and certainly contributed to - as a means of discussing the many merits of a quite brilliant album. Anyone, such as yourself, who are more inclined to pursue release dates as opposed to offering an appreciation of such outstanding music have at their disposal no lack of web sites and accurate tomes -- so if you find anything absolute to contradict what has been documented by Sinatra biographers and his record label, please share.

Incidentally, the first album released on Reprise - Ring-a-Ding Ding - hit shelves in the spring of 1961. Therefore, getting "better numbers at retail than what had gone down since 1960" misses the mark. Especially when Sinatra didn't begin negations to sell Reprise to Warner Bros. until September of 1963. Not prior to June, 1963, as you erroneously state above.

Stickler for facts and historical accuracy, indeed . . .

Re: The Concert Sinatra reissue

Fri Jul 13, 2012 4:04 am

greystoke wrote:It was very easy because it's the obvious place to find such information, however, there's no shortage of literature both found in Sinatra box sets and several highly regarded books that cite May, 1963 as the release date of The Concert Sinatra.

How about naming just one source example from the "literature both found in Sinatra box sets and several highly regarded books"? I've requested this several times. Do we have to beg?


greystoke wrote:Anyone, such as yourself, who are more inclined to pursue release dates as opposed to offering an appreciation of such outstanding music ...

The rudeness of this comment is unexpected, unwelcome and untrue.

On this topic I saw no need to add appreciation that would only serve to be redundant after your extensive posts. You should know these, as they were the ones I praised.

Let no good deed go unpunished! Duly noted.


greystoke wrote:... so if you find anything absolute to contradict what has been documented by Sinatra biographers and his record label, please share
.
Ignoring yet more smugness on your part, my research and posts are more absolute than anything on this topic to date.

But I won't be extending such goodwill again, as it seems to make people like you very uncomfortable.


greystoke wrote:Incidentally, the first album released on Reprise - Ring-a-Ding Ding - hit shelves in the spring of 1961. Therefore, getting "better numbers at retail than what had gone down since 1960" misses the mark.

No, my reference is simply to the year the label was formed, which is indeed 1960. But nice try!


greystoke wrote:Especially when Sinatra didn't begin negations to sell Reprise to Warner Bros. until September of 1963 ...

Stickler for facts and historical accuracy, indeed . . .

Boy, they must have used a time machine for those negotiations.

You might be interested in learning the completion of the Reprise deal was announced in mid-August.


Billboard Aug 17 1963 p3.JPG
Billboard - August 17, 1963


Maybe you need to upgrade your books. :D

Enjoy the music!

::rocks
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Re: The Concert Sinatra reissue

Fri Jul 13, 2012 4:12 am

August, not September -- my mistake there. Although, I can certainly admit when I'm wrong and that mistake came from memory. So excuse me . . .

And I'm certainly enjoying the music. Let me know when you finally hear the album.

Re: The Concert Sinatra reissue

Fri Jul 13, 2012 4:30 am

greystoke wrote:August, not September -- my mistake there.

Not August.

If everythng was officially done by August 3, as the article clearly states, then negotiations must have started in May-June.

Perhaps even before the release of The Concert Sinatra.

Live and learn! And maybe don't be so rude and ungracious to those who are neither.

::rocks

Re: The Concert Sinatra reissue

Fri Jul 13, 2012 5:12 am

drjohncarpenter wrote:
greystoke wrote:August, not September -- my mistake there.

Not August.

If everythng was officially done by August 3, as the article clearly states, then negotiations must have started in May-June.

Perhaps even before the release of The Concert Sinatra.

Live and learn! And maybe don't be so rude and ungracious to those who are neither.

::rocks


And you keep clutching to those straws, Doc . . .

The Concert Sinatra was still released in May, 1963, BTW.

Re: The Concert Sinatra reissue

Fri Jul 13, 2012 5:29 am

drjohncarpenter wrote:
greystoke wrote:It was very easy because it's the obvious place to find such information, however, there's no shortage of literature both found in Sinatra box sets and several highly regarded books that cite May, 1963 as the release date of The Concert Sinatra.

How about naming just one source example from the "literature both found in Sinatra box sets and several highly regarded books"? I've requested this several times. Do we have to beg?


greystoke wrote:Anyone, such as yourself, who are more inclined to pursue release dates as opposed to offering an appreciation of such outstanding music ...

The rudeness of this comment is unexpected, unwelcome and untrue.

On this topic I saw no need to add appreciation that would only serve to be redundant after your extensive posts. You should know these, as they were the ones I praised.

Let no good deed go unpunished! Duly noted.


greystoke wrote:... so if you find anything absolute to contradict what has been documented by Sinatra biographers and his record label, please share
.
Ignoring yet more smugness on your part, my research and posts are more absolute than anything on this topic to date.

But I won't be extending such goodwill again, as it seems to make people like you very uncomfortable.


greystoke wrote:Incidentally, the first album released on Reprise - Ring-a-Ding Ding - hit shelves in the spring of 1961. Therefore, getting "better numbers at retail than what had gone down since 1960" misses the mark.

No, my reference is simply to the year the label was formed, which is indeed 1960. But nice try!


greystoke wrote:Especially when Sinatra didn't begin negations to sell Reprise to Warner Bros. until September of 1963 ...

Stickler for facts and historical accuracy, indeed . . .

Boy, they must have used a time machine for those negotiations.

You might be interested in learning the completion of the Reprise deal was announced in mid-August.


Billboard Aug 17 1963 p3.JPG
Billboard - August 17, 1963


Maybe you need to upgrade your books. :D

Enjoy the music!

::rocks


So far, you have been shown five sources which state the date as May 1963. Two of the books quoted are available online via google books, and an online source from the main event website is one that YOU linked to in the first place. Surely if you were guiding us to that website yourself, YOU must believe that the information contained within it is reliable. After all YOU would not link to an unreliable website, now would you????

Re: The Concert Sinatra reissue

Sat Jul 14, 2012 8:54 am

Hi there!! :D :D :D.
poormadpeter wrote:
Mike Windgren wrote:Hi there!! :D :D :D.

Frank Sinatra is my 2º music passion 8).
poormadpeter, please let me know where I can get this Sinatrafiles books. I can´t find them anywhere :cry:. Thank you!. Bye for now :smt006.


A search for Sinatrafile on amazon.co.uk gives you some of the books, only available secondhand now. The 1990s 2nd editions are the ones to get (they are substantially bigger than the 70s editions) - but be warned, they are literally books of lists in the main, and not like, for example, Jorgensen's A Life In Music which has a substantial amount of reading material as well.


I understand, I thought it was kinda like Ernst Jorgensen´s book. Thank you any way. Bye for now :smt006.

Re: The Concert Sinatra reissue

Mon Jul 16, 2012 4:33 am

drjohncarpenter wrote:
poormadpeter wrote:The record was released in late May. Confirmed in the three-volume sessionography/discography Sinatrafile by Sinatra expert John Ridgeway.

"Late May"?

How odd Reprise didn't place a Billboard ad until almost a month later, and the weekly held off reviewing the new Reprise LP for over a month. I guess this new label had no interest in selling new product by its #1 artist.

"Confirmed"?

Fans here are well aware of the fallibility of the JAT Presley sessionography/discography books. Now, since none of us have this Sinatra tome, please share what source this "expert" references, instead of a pair of sentences anyone could have written.

In lieu of any other valid information, I'll stick to the contemporaneous material I posted above as overwhelming evidence of an early-to-mid-June release.

Ridgway apparently had access to Reprise paperwork that included shipping dates.

Ridgway is no fly-by-night. His scholarship is exemplary, and has been the gold standard for decades (although I prefer do Nascimento Silva's book these days when it comes to track-by-track info, as it includes details on releases through the end of the 20th Century). Ridgway's Sinatrafiles have sadly been out of print for decades.

Remember, chart dates are for the week ending on whatever date is given. If it charted for the *week ending* 2 June, that's actually more evidence that the late May date is accurate.

Reprise was famous for turning around Sinatra product almost instantly if he wanted them to. It's a perk of owning the label one's self, as he still did at this point.

The unfortunate thing about the original release of 'The Concert Sinatra' is that after going to all that trouble recording in 35mm, they then made the record based on twin-track mixdowns onto tape. This CD release is largely remixed using whatever they possibly could from the film itself. 35mm is a horrible storage format though, so not everything was recoverable and in some cases mixdowns and 3 track tape backups were used to generate the new disc. The work was supervised by Frank Jr., and it really is a work of art in terms of restoration - there is all sorts of detail that is not present in the original mix (or the 1999 remix from safety tapes, which was a huge improvement on the original CD issue, which faithfully reproduced the original vinyl production master).

Re: The Concert Sinatra reissue

Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:55 am

I only bought the new version of the album today. I bought the one that came out a couple of years ago, and wasn't keen on splashing out for another one! I have to say I'm in the minority that I prefer the sound mix of the first version. While it's lovely to hear Riddle's orchestrations more fully and clear, Sinatra's voice seems to be more prominent in the mix and sounds much harsher to me. As I've said before, I admire the album very much and think it's a wonderful work, but it's not one I play a great deal, probably due to its heavier nature which doesn't necessarily suit playing when working etc in the way the swing or Jobim albums do. It is great to hear the single sides attached to the other songs from the sessions; it's been a shame that their only CD release was on the 20CD reprise set. Talking of which, it seems high time that a 3 CD set of the "lost reprise recordings" were made available. There is plenty from that set which were either discarded by Sinatra entirely or used as single sides which deserve to be heard. That such wonderful tracks as Just As Though You Were Here, I'm Not Afraid and Forget to Remember are not available for people to enjoy is almost a crime.

Re: The Concert Sinatra reissue

Wed Dec 17, 2014 9:36 pm

poormadpeter wrote: .... It is great to hear the single sides attached to the other songs from the sessions; it's been a shame that their only CD release was on the 20CD reprise set. Talking of which, it seems high time that a 3 CD set of the "lost reprise recordings" were made available. There is plenty from that set which were either discarded by Sinatra entirely or used as single sides which deserve to be heard. That such wonderful tracks as Just As Though You Were Here, I'm Not Afraid and Forget to Remember are not available for people to enjoy is almost a crime.


... two and a half years later, and the tracks you reference are still not available for others to enjoy. "the lost reprise recordings" are still lost. How frustrating. If I were producing, The Concert Sinatra Part Two would be out by now.

Everything Greystoke says about The Concert Sinatra is understatement.

I haven't listened to the album since it was remasterd but I plan to sit down with a glass of wine and give the remaster a spin when I get home tonight.

Re: The Concert Sinatra reissue

Wed Dec 17, 2014 11:29 pm

It would have been nice if Reprise had included a booklet of all the photographs taken at this session in the remastered CD. There were a lot, evidently.

I have a CD-R clone of a fan-made boot of the entire session. How it got out, is anyone's guess.

Was the session filmed, does anyone know?

Re: The Concert Sinatra reissue

Wed Dec 17, 2014 11:35 pm

Richard--W wrote:It would have been nice if Reprise had included a booklet of all the photographs taken at this session in the remastered CD. There were a lot, evidently.

I have a CD-R clone of a fan-made boot of the entire session. How it got out, is anyone's guess.

Was the session filmed, does anyone know?


Reprise are not behind the reissuing of the Reprise material. I think it is Concord in the States and Universal in the UK/Europe.

Re: The Concert Sinatra reissue

Wed Dec 17, 2014 11:41 pm

Richard--W wrote:
poormadpeter wrote: .... It is great to hear the single sides attached to the other songs from the sessions; it's been a shame that their only CD release was on the 20CD reprise set. Talking of which, it seems high time that a 3 CD set of the "lost reprise recordings" were made available. There is plenty from that set which were either discarded by Sinatra entirely or used as single sides which deserve to be heard. That such wonderful tracks as Just As Though You Were Here, I'm Not Afraid and Forget to Remember are not available for people to enjoy is almost a crime.


... two and a half years later, and the tracks you reference are still not available for others to enjoy. "the lost reprise recordings" are still lost....


I'm still hoping.

I was looking through the sessions book I have today and noticed the amount of songs from the Reprise period that were seemingly recorded but not released - or which were tried once, abandoned, and then tried again at the next session (such as The Saddest Thing of All - better than the remake in my opinion -, Everybody Ought to Be in Love, and much of the first and second segments of Trilogy). There is also supposedly a complete recording Remember, an Elton John song, recorded for that project - and certainly there are live renditions floating around which are reasonably impressive. There are also live songs such as All By Myself and The Hungry Years that have been released on grey releases in the UK and Europe but not officially by his label. There's also oddities such as It's Time For You, recorded for an advert, and the rather nice run-through of Evergreen (although Sinatra doesn't continue to the end of the song).

Re: The Concert Sinatra reissue

Thu Dec 18, 2014 4:30 pm

I'm sure we would all like to see Sinatra's concept albums given a Special Edition release like FTD does for Elvis. Disc 1, the album. Disc 2, the sessions and related.

Re: The Concert Sinatra reissue

Thu Dec 18, 2014 5:12 pm

Richard--W wrote:I'm sure we would all like to see Sinatra's concept albums given a Special Edition release like FTD does for Elvis. Disc 1, the album. Disc 2, the sessions and related.


That wouldn't be for me. I've never liked the classic album series. I liked the anthologies of selected outtakes much better (as in the early FTD releases like Easter Special, Out in Hollywood). They make far better listening experiences.