Yes it is a NEW 1969 show!

I',m convinced now its the 21.8.69 D/S (containing the previously released tracks from collectors gold + the legend lives) on which were incorrectly dated and it also contains some "edits"

Hi,

do we have more infos on the "edits" ? Is it due to :
- tapes change (tapes or reels) ?
- technical difficulties ?
- real intentional cuts done by RCA ?

And what about the rumour of a "new" rerelease as a single CD with a bonus extra track ? Is it true (and what is the source) or is it a joke ?
May be the bonus song be "Words" ?

See You

Vince

Hi Vince...well i'll tell you 2 things for now:-
1.dialogue b4 hound dog MUST be edited-as was it EVER that short???
2.surrender is b4 Runaway.

While listening to this on my MP3 player at work, I noticed that though the instruments are mixed pretty much where they should be, the background vocals seem to be more prevalent in the left channel. Should they not image from the right?

It's not distracting to the recording, which I find very good. Just wondered if anyone else noticed this.

I am very much enjoying this release on my player

To the person in San Mateo, California who can't locate a Walmart...try Mountain View, California...about 20 minutes South on Highway 101. They had plenty copies of Viva Las Vegas on the shelves when I bought my copy on the weekend.

It's not that I can't find a Wal-Mart...I was saying they weren't allowed to buy land and build here in San Mateo County because of their practices and the damages they cause to the local economies.
I have already ordered all my DVDs online and they should be here by the time I get back from Memphis.

Axe

PS - I live in San Mateo *County* (it's a big place, man), not San Mateo...and it's a good 40-45 minute drive from my home in the Santa Cruz mountains to get to San Mateo proper. If you think I'm driving two hours round trip with today's gas prices...think again!

I',m convinced now its the 21.8.69 D/S (containing the previously released tracks from collectors gold + the legend lives) on which were incorrectly dated and it also contains some "edits"

Do we all agree that it is the 21.8 DS indeed?

We can all agree to it, but it still doesn't necessarily mean that it is indeed the dinner show.

However, I've already logged it into my files that it is the dinner show and I'm not changing it now (and don't anyone try to change my mind either)!

:lol: Hi Vince...well i'll tell you 2 things for now:-
1.dialogue b4 hound dog MUST be edited-as was it EVER that short???
2.surrender is b4 Runaway.

I dunno about the dialog before 'Hound Dog', but I think 'Surrender' was edited before 'Runaway' on Collector's Gold rather than vice versa. Also if you listen to the audience applause after AYLT it sounds like it could be spliced to skip 'Words'. If this is the case, I'm guessing that there was a reel change and maybe 'Words' is incomplete, only speculation though. As far as DS or MS though--???

Hi,

it would be interesting to know how were the sound engineers working when taping a gig in that time area. I'm pretty confident that a multitrack recording was able to record a gig without any edit. Only a "inline" recording (not multitrack) on Reel-To-Reel must have cuts each 15-20 minutes period. Even that many band that were not using multitrack equipments were using two or three Reel-To-Reel recorders each with a 5-10 minutes delay. Just think to the famous "Get Back Sessions" recorded on Nagra tapes by various cameras...

Yes, it is commonly used to "edit" a song, liking the next applause to the end of the previous song.

See You

Vince

So is Target any better than Walmart? To be honest I don't quite see a difference...

Target's TV commercials are superb, WAY better than Wal-Mart's.

There are no Walmarts or Targets here in Russia. What in the world am I supposed to do?

PS None of their commercials are here either

Hi,

the best way to confirm that each 1969 was probably complete, is that for example the "Here I Go Again" (60 minutes tape of 24-08-1969 midnight Show) is mono and cut at the 60 minutes mark, and RCA released part of the gig on multitrack stereo (including complete Suspicious Minds, track that was cut on "Here I Go Again").
As we already had a few complete 1969 gigs (2 on FTD, 1 on Live In Las Vegas box), i can't see why they may have "incomplete" gigs.
Of course a technical problems may have occured, but i think that even that RCA was using probably some "inline" recordings as "security" (explanation of the "Here I Go Again" tape ?).
For example when Pearl Jam released most of their 2000 world tour on 2CDs, during 1 gig they had technical difficulties with their multitrack for a few songs, so they apologized and included a "rough" inline recording to fill the gap. Even if most the fans did not noticed any difference or were not very interested by the explanation...

Maybe the simple explanation is that RCA wanted to include a more polished gig ? At least as the CD is 70 minutes long, i don't see any reason of an edit of "Words".
Even if they are "cheap", they may have pressed a 74 minutes CD with "Words" - pressing after the 74 minutes mark is usually more expensive.
But bootlegs say the contrary - look the number of short Elvis gigs released with bonus tracks to make a full 80 minutes CD.

If anyone can check on Soundforge the whole gig, for the frequencies and have the visual of the sound capture (usually a good method to check the edits and differences that can be missed by the hear), it can help us...

See You

Vince

EDIT NOTE : the 45 minutes mark is right after "AYLT ?". But if the gig is taken from a multitrack, the explanation of a tape flip that may have missed part of "Words" can't be used there.

EDIT NOTE : the 45 minutes mark is right after "AYLT ?". But if the gig is taken from a multitrack, the explanation of a tape flip that may have missed part of "Words" can't be used there.

Not a tape flip, Vince- changing reels.

And your argument is exactly backwards. Multitrack tape doesn't last as long due to recording speeds.

Elvis's shows were recorded 3 ways

1) 16-track tape recording at 15 inches per second

2) Mono (sometimes stereo) reel to reel soundboards at 7.5 inches per second

3) Cassette tapes recording at 1 and 7/8 inches per second

So you see that multitrack obviously takes up FAR more tape length than the other two- all three are capable of capturing an entire show, BUT it depends on what length of reel RCA was using at the time.

Interesting side note, methods 2 and 3 were sometimes used simultaneously, so some boots that have been released of SBs from cassette sources actually have better sources out there somewhere.

You take it for granted that RCA Moblie recording would not miss any portion of a concert during a reel change, these guys were highly experienced and by 1969 had some 20 years of concert and broadway live recording.

How can we be really sure that Words was even in the DS. This song came and went during the week of RCA recording week.

I will catolog this as a DS for now.

This is a time when EJ could easily be a bit more forthcoming....those people who claim to ring him up...have you asked>>

I think that the 1969 shows were recorded on 8-track tape, only from Feb. 1970 and onwards were 16-track tapes used. (if my memory serves me right).

1969 Vegas shows were 8 track, 15 inches per second.

If Pachuki used a 10.5 inch reel of tape the maximum number of minutes per reel would be 33.

If he used the larger 14 inch reel of tape, the run time per reel would be 66 minutes.

It was standard NAB practice during the period for engineers to employ 2 tape machines for live location recordings. The second machine would start recording 10 or 15 minutes before the first reel ran out, so as to have complete show coverage. But we don't know if Pachuki employed two tape decks.

Tunzi published that Words occurs after Are You Lonesome Tonight in the Aug. 21 Dinner Show. If this song was peformed, it would have occurred about 44 minutes into the show.

If Pachuki started a new reel with each new show, it seems implausible that he would have missed "Words" due to a tape change.

However, if he stopped tape each night after a show ended, and resumed recording on the same tape just after where a previous show had ended, it is possible it could have been missed during a tape change.

I remember Ernst said that part of the monologue for one of the FTD 69 shows was missing due to a reel change, so it's possible for this show as well.

It's interesting that Tunzi hasn't weighed in. Some have stated that he owns copies of all the 69 shows. If this is true, he should be able to compare his dub to the new release and lay all the speculation to rest, including Words.

Last edited by monkboughtlunch on Fri Aug 10, 2007 4:54 am, edited 2 times in total.

Here are 2 additional variables that will factor in when considering what time the first Aug. 21 DS tape reel ends:

a) One would assume Pachuki started with a fresh reel of tape for the very first show RCA recorded - the Aug. 21 DS.

b.) However, there were apparently (according to Tunzi) several incomplete rehearsal fragments recorded by Pachuki before the first show, presumably to set/test the sound levels. These rehearsal fragments--if not recorded over--would presumably exist in the several minutes of tape before the Aug. 21 dinner show begins. Tunzi believes these fragments exist and were not recorded over, so the start of the Aug. 21 dinner show may have begun several minutes into the tape.

Last edited by monkboughtlunch on Fri Aug 10, 2007 4:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

I can't find the post about the rehearsal fragments that were recorded, but someone posted that Tunzi said something to the effect parts of about 5 songs were recorded--all less than a minute each.

So if we assume that the Aug. 21 dinner show begins about 5 minutes into the first reel of tape (due to the existence of the test rehearsal fragments), the first reel would have ended around the time the monologue (track 10 on the cd) begins--if Pachuki was using a 33 minute tape.

But Tunzi claims that Words occurs after Are You Lonesome tonight, roughly 15 minutes later.

If these assumptions, based on what Tunzi has apparently stated, are correct, it becomes difficult to imagine a scenario where Pachuki misses "Words" due to a tape change. Plus, if he was using the longer 66 minute tape length, it wouldn't have been an issue at all.

So if Words was performed at the dinner show, and what we have on the new CD is in fact the dinner show, the evidence weighs more towards this being recorded and apparently edited out for this CD.

Obviously without access to the tape logs, tape reels etc this is just pure speculation and could be wrong. But it is a reasonable hypothesis given the limited information available (which is admittedly anecdotal and subject to error).

Last edited by monkboughtlunch on Fri Aug 10, 2007 5:01 am, edited 4 times in total.

hey don't treat those track-listings 'given' for both shows ion 21st Aug 69 as 'gospel' if they wern't correct that in itself would explain the differences!

hey don't treat those track-listings 'given' for both shows ion 21st Aug 69 as 'gospel' if they wern't correct that in itself would explain the differences!

Very true. The argument is based on posts by several on this board who know Tunzi and claim he has all 12 shows on tape, including rehearsal fragments. Of course Tunzi could be wrong about Words--maybe it wasn't performed at all. Maybe he doesn't have tapes as some say--I don't know.

Hopefully someone will ask Tunzi to weigh in after he has listened to the CD.

Last edited by monkboughtlunch on Fri Aug 10, 2007 5:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

those people who claim to ring him up...have you asked>>

I've wondered this too.

On the elvis site: http://www.elvisconcerts.com words is not listed as being performed.


Eddy.
ALWAYS ELVIS ON MY MIND

On the elvis site: http://www.elvisconcerts.com words is not listed as being performed.


Eddy.
ALWAYS ELVIS ON MY MIND

But according to the website Surrender comes from the MS, where Words IS performed... and the dinner show contains My Babe....

(...)

This is a time when EJ could easily be a bit more forthcoming....those people who claim to ring him up...have you asked>>

Can someone PLEASE contact Ernst about this?

Hi,

very interesting infos about the methods of recording that were used.
As for many other bands, i think that it is doubtful that :

- Pachuki taped gig after gig on a series of tapes. I think that RCA had enough money to have as many fresh new tapes for each show.

- Pachuki had "lost" some songs after the first rehearsals/gigs. This is possible that rehearsals and soundchecks are partial, even one or two gigs, but after the whole series of gigs will have been taped complete.

Many bands in the 60's were using two recorders to be sure to capture the whole gig. It is plausible that RCA used that method.
The fact that Elvis was not doing "real" encores (monologues and solos were good dead airs during the shows for Elvis) was probably a problem due to the various lengths of the gigs (from 45 to more than 90 minutes). But RCA were probably real professionals, and planned that.

About the 45 minutes tape flip, the audio cassette was already in use, and it is unfortunately (like the 30 minutes tape flip) the main drawback with most of the Elvis recordings (both audience and copies of soundboards done on audio tapes). The best example is the "One Night Only !" soundboard, that was cutting two songs at the 30 minutes tape flip (or Reel To Reel tape flip ? but this is strange that the cut is at 29-30 minutes, and not 32-33 minutes), but was recently completed by an audience tape... that also was cut at the 45 minutes tape flip...
For some bands, like Led Zeppelin for example, it is impossible to complete some gigs even if there are more than 3 different audience tapes (all cutting at the same moment...).

At least, Ernst can help us with that gig...

See You

Vince

Hi,

very interesting infos about the methods of recording that were used.
As for many other bands, i think that it is doubtful that :

- Pachuki taped gig after gig on a series of tapes. I think that RCA had enough money to have as many fresh new tapes for each show.

- Pachuki had "lost" some songs after the first rehearsals/gigs. This is possible that rehearsals and soundchecks are partial, even one or two gigs, but after the whole series of gigs will have been taped complete.

Many bands in the 60's were using two recorders to be sure to capture the whole gig. It is plausible that RCA used that method.
The fact that Elvis was not doing "real" encores (monologues and solos were good dead airs during the shows for Elvis) was probably a problem due to the various lengths of the gigs (from 45 to more than 90 minutes). But RCA were probably real professionals, and planned that.

About the 45 minutes tape flip, the audio cassette was already in use, and it is unfortunately (like the 30 minutes tape flip) the main drawback with most of the Elvis recordings (both audience and copies of soundboards done on audio tapes). The best example is the "One Night Only !" soundboard, that was cutting two songs at the 30 minutes tape flip (or Reel To Reel tape flip ? but this is strange that the cut is at 29-30 minutes, and not 32-33 minutes), but was recently completed by an audience tape... that also was cut at the 45 minutes tape flip...
For some bands, like Led Zeppelin for example, it is impossible to complete some gigs even if there are more than 3 different audience tapes (all cutting at the same moment...).

At least, Ernst can help us with that gig...

See You

Vince

Hi - there is no tape flip with an 8 track reel. Once it ends, you move the empty reel to the take up arm and then load/thread up a new reel of tape.