how's the sound on new american trilogy FTD?

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Jamie
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#355586

Post by Jamie »

Totally agree midnight. The live mixes have been generally poor on FTD compared to where they should be to do Elvis justice. It just seems sloppy and I'd love to hear some sort of explanation from FTD.

As ever I qualify that with the comment that we are all grateful for these releases - but we also pay good money for them. And surely, the live mixes deserve the care and attention applied by the likes of Kevin on the 50's material. What saddens me is that because these are not full blown BMG releases we are unlikely to ever get this material in better quality than now.

cheers Jamie


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Robert
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#355591

Post by Robert »

midnightx wrote: there is never any consistency to the mixes.
In fact there is: Elvis live sound always lacks quality ;)




James
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I liked it...

#355983

Post by James »

I liked the sound, I mean the FTD people can only work with what they've got. If the source tape has been mixed poorly and there's no separation of the instruments, then there isn't much anyone can do.

True if all the instuments were on different tracks and it STILL was mixed poorly then I can understand - but aren't we dealing with two track mixed down reel to reels here that are thirty years old or older a lot of the time? Tape hiss is always a factor and distortion can be too (you try mixing in the same room as the concert, i've done it and it's murder!) because you're more interested in the sound that comes out of the speakers rather than what's on the tape, especially if the concert's being recorded informally and not for commercial release like the Madison Square Garden concerts.

I've worked on audio restoration and it is hard so give the guys their due I think. :)



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DarrylMac
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#355995

Post by DarrylMac »

James, you might have a point if those recordings on Burning Love, and the 70's boxset hadn't sounded so good. Surely if BMG can do a good job, FTD has access to the same source material?



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monkboughtlunch
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Re: I liked it...

#356107

Post by monkboughtlunch »

James wrote:I liked the sound, I mean the FTD people can only work with what they've got. If the source tape has been mixed poorly and there's no separation of the instruments, then there isn't much anyone can do.

True if all the instuments were on different tracks and it STILL was mixed poorly then I can understand - but aren't we dealing with two track mixed down reel to reels here that are thirty years old or older a lot of the time? Tape hiss is always a factor and distortion can be too (you try mixing in the same room as the concert, i've done it and it's murder!) because you're more interested in the sound that comes out of the speakers rather than what's on the tape, especially if the concert's being recorded informally and not for commercial release like the Madison Square Garden concerts.

I've worked on audio restoration and it is hard so give the guys their due I think. :)
The pro-recorded portion of this FTD consists of 16 track source material. Only the bonus soundboard cuts were mixed on the fly.

The 16 track material was mixed down and mastered in the modern digital era, hence the disappointment.




thekingisalive

#356217

Post by thekingisalive »

FTD no longer tells us who has remixed these multitrack concerts. I think this started with All Shook Up. I suppose these are old Dennis Ferrante mixes, but I really don’t know. Lene Reidel is definitely to blame for the dull sound. The soundboard portion of this escape sounds pretty good, though, at least better than the bootleg, but the multitrack recordings are a bit lightweight compared to the superb Burning Love mix.

Anyway, it’s a nice addition to the series. Just too bad it’s been handled by an amateur.

Per



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Jamie
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#356639

Post by Jamie »

James,

the disappointement is because they are 16 track recordings and not mix downs. I do agree that we don't know what conditions they had to work with e.g. tape damage, perhaps microphones placed differently on a particular night, etc. I think a bit more information from FTD may help suppress some of the negative conversations about sound quality - or perhaps not! Its not bad sound quality just not as good as we know it could be because of Burning Love CD.

Per

the strange thing is Burning Love was mixed by Ferrante! I suppose he had to get it right sometime. But once he had why change the formula?

cheers Jamie


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Juan Luis

#356641

Post by Juan Luis »

midnightx wrote:With all of this going back and forth about the sound quality of these live tapes, it really begs the question, why can't BMG hire a competent engineer to mix Elvis' multi-track concert tapes? It can't be that difficult, yet there is never any consistency to the mixes.
Because no one will be satisfied unless done by a major leager and even then...How do you want show to sound? Like the date it was recorded..or as if EP did it last week? Right there people expecting one thing will hate what they hear. IMO...




Matthew

#356791

Post by Matthew »

Juan Luis wrote:
midnightx wrote:With all of this going back and forth about the sound quality of these live tapes, it really begs the question, why can't BMG hire a competent engineer to mix Elvis' multi-track concert tapes? It can't be that difficult, yet there is never any consistency to the mixes.
Because no one will be satisfied unless done by a major leager and even then...How do you want show to sound? Like the date it was recorded..or as if EP did it last week? Right there people expecting one thing will hate what they hear. IMO...
The only way to be truely authentic, or at least as authentic as possible is the use the original live albums as template guidelines ie: 1969 material mixed to reflect In Person, August 1970 to match the original TTWII album live instrument placement. April '72 to match MSQ placement and so on.

Failing that the mixes could place the instruments and voices by the audiences perception of where the stage placement of the instruements are and even then the sound image would be open to debate.



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thenexte
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#356798

Post by thenexte »

Jamie wrote:James,

the disappointement is because they are 16 track recordings and not mix downs. I do agree that we don't know what conditions they had to work with e.g. tape damage, perhaps microphones placed differently on a particular night, etc. I think a bit more information from FTD may help suppress some of the negative conversations about sound quality - or perhaps not! Its not bad sound quality just not as good as we know it could be because of Burning Love CD.

Per

the strange thing is Burning Love was mixed by Ferrante! I suppose he had to get it right sometime. But once he had why change the formula?

cheers Jamie
Bear in mind a lot of good mixes can actually be totally screwed up by the mastering engineer (which is what I believe happened here). The unmastered mix probably sounded great. That's the problem with a lot of mastering studios today (especially the smaller ones with less experience, like Tocano), they somehow can't let a good sounding mix be what it already is. They feel if they can't tweak the hell out of it they haven'd done their job, regardless if they had a perfect sounding mix to begin with. I seriously doubt the Sony Studios in New York operate in this fashion, which is why we are consistently seeing great results from them. This is definitely not the case for Tocano, they are all over the map!




Matthew

#356801

Post by Matthew »

thenexte wrote:This is definitely not the case for Tocano, they are all over the map!
And is certainly an area of customer concern that doesn't appear to ever be addressed by FTD.




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#356824

Post by minkahed »

I just ordered my copy of An American Trilogy and after reading all these reviews, I'm a lil disappointed and concerned.

Judging by some of these trax being released in the past, (ie: "Burning Love", "Live In Las Vegas" 4 cd set ...), I assumed that the mixes and mastering was going to be top notch, but now I'm definitely sceptical ... :roll:


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Rob

#356841

Post by Rob »

minkahed wrote:I'm definitely sceptical.
Don't be.

No matter what FTD releases, there will always be moaning from the select few. Enjoy your CD.



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Jamie
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#356876

Post by Jamie »

minkahead,

continue to look forward to it as there is some great stuff on the release and I'm sure you'll love it. I've been playing it regularly for the last couple of weeks.

Rob

no one is questioning the release, content or Elvis performances - it's great to have and I hope there are a few more versions to come of some of these songs. But the bar for quality should have set with releases like Burning Love. I think it is a legitimate question to ask why the best hasn't been achieved. As Matthew says it is a reasonable question for a customer to ask - is there an issue with Tocano?

cheers Jamie


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JEFF d
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#356885

Post by JEFF d »

An American Trilogy is a fine cd...

...and when the heck did Burning Love all of a sudden be the mark of perfection, as I recall that release was also raked over the coals when it came out! :roll:

JEFF d
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minkahed
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#356934

Post by minkahed »

Rob and Jamie, Thanks for the encouragement and advice. I am definitely looking forward to this disc as I patiently await ...
JEFF d wrote:An American Trilogy is a fine cd...

...and when the heck did Burning Love all of a sudden be the mark of perfection, as I recall that release was also raked over the coals when it came out! :roll:

JEFF d
EAP fan
Jeff, I was kinda thinkin' the same thing about the 1999 "Burning Love" disc ...

I remember that cd getting hammered when it was first released for it's poor and sloppy editing, lack of continuity and bad mastering.

I guess it's grown on some people.


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Thekingstillrocks
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Why ruin a multi track recording

#356981

Post by Thekingstillrocks »

I’m listing this cd in a recording studio with 50.000 Euro speakers so I hear it like the guys in the mastering studio listen at it… Like I did with Live in LA
I know I do complain but I was very happy with many other releases of FTD.
What did they do ?
They have a multitrack recording and don’t make a proper mix …. Instruments sound weak , specially the orchestra only Elvis comes out , What are they doing ?
This could have been mind blowing release and been talked about as fantastic , now it’s just a bit better as a regular SB release with less white noise.
The engineer in Denmark (Reidel) doesn’t know much about Elvis sound.
Is he having these jobs because he works around the corner of BMG Denmark, standard contract?
Somebody saves on the budget at FTD, and we start to see/ hear the results.


I'm sorry to be so negative but its the truth.



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Marc Haegeman
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#357007

Post by Marc Haegeman »

I don't think either that "Burning Love" does that much better as this new FTD release. It's louder and mixed differently, for sure, but not necessarily better. Yet, that we are indeed missing a lot on "American Trilogy" can best be heard if you compare "It's Impossible" here with the the master on "Love, Elvis". Completely different world...
A missed chance, because it's a great selection IMO, our man is in great voice and the "new" songs have superb arrangements that would benefit from a first-rate mastering.



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bajo
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#357014

Post by bajo »

I've just been through this, along with a bunch of FTD's. I think An American Trilogy sounds really good! And that includes the soundboard!!
I'm very found of the february '72 Vegas recordings, and this doesn't bring you down at all!
As such it is a pity there were no more recordings done! Elvis was in real good voice, the recordings were pro and as we can recall from On Tour, '72 was a good year!


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Matthew

#357019

Post by Matthew »

I think using "Burning Love" as the marker point is probably a little misleading as the live material was prepared for The Essential 70s Masters box set in 1995. I presume songs like “Little Sister/Get Back” and “Hound Dog” were also prepped at that time.

Can someone confirm some information about the previously released material on “An American Trilogy” (I don't have it yet): are these recordings subject to new mixes or are they indeed the same mixes that appeared on “The 70s Masters”/”Burning Love”/”Live In Las Vegas” etc? If they are then the difference in apparent sound quality between this new release and the older issues of the material would most certainly be attributed to the mastering applied to this new release. Indeed Lene Reidel does appear (from past experience) to reach for the reverb knob whenever multitrack live material passes her way.

If done subtly and used correctly reverb is a decent tool to use on live recordings such as these ONLY if it is not evident that it is an added effect but rather more natural sounding as if the recording mics have picked up the resonance from the hall they are recording in. It is a fine line though and unfortunately the added reverb on some FTD releases such as Elvis at the International is obviously an additional effect which can actually (to my ears anyway) reduce the qualities of the listening experience.

In any case the unreleased material here isn’t available elsewhere and being stereo multitrack means I can’t possibly pass it up compared to a soundboard release. I think this is what it comes down to at the end of the day, we either buy this material or not – like it or lump it about poor mastering efforts here and there. I would have hoped the ongoing mastering complaints which are almost always attributed to one engineer on these FTDs would have caused the produces of this series to take note and look elsewhere. Indeed it could be argued this has already begun by virtue of the fact all the 50s classic albums have been mastered by Kevan Budd so far and who has also mastered the second regular release of 68 Comback material to fan satisfaction (remember, the first ever FTD was a Lene Reidel effort and this drew complaints back then). The 60s Nashville recordings so far have been covered by another talented individual: Sebastian Jeansson. The key here is that these two individuals are dedicated to the material and really this is what is needed across the board. Unfortunately it has got to the stage now where every regular release is anticipated to be flawed in some way by the mastering and this position hasn’t been reached out of thin air. Classic Albums are anticipated to sound great and regular releases are anticipated to sound bad.



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thenexte
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#357040

Post by thenexte »

It would be great if they could get a person on board specializing on mastering the 70's material (may that be live or studio), preferably somebody like Kevan Budd or Sebastian Jeansson, who enjoy music with dynamic range and recordings where production decisions (such as EQ or compression) don't call attention to themselves but instead, reveal more of the music.



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#357051

Post by monkboughtlunch »

It's frustrating that Jorgenson won't let someone else tackle the mutitracks from either a mixing or mastering perspective.

Ferrante stockpile or not, every single 1969 release has fallen short.

Live in Las Vegas: Disc 1. Piano deleted from the mix. Monologue cut and resequenced.

Live at the International FTD: This should have been the killer! A wonderful show. But the mixing featured some strange mixing moments, such as when Ferrante pots down the electric piano fills so they can't be heard on the Tiger Man portion of the Mystery Train medley. Another bizarre mixing moment happens when Ferrante pots the lead guitar too low (swamped by the horns) during the extended, blistering guitar solo during What'd I Say.

And then there is the mastering on this release. The bass is paper thin, whereas it had been rich, deep and warm on the Live in Las Vegas disc one. Reidel floats a gob of digital reverb on the whole affair.

All Shook Up FTD: Another slapdash Ferrante mixdown finds him over-reacting to the criticism of the "missing piano" syndrome. He pots up the piano so it can be heard, but frequently pots the strings so incredibly and artificially low in the mix that they can barely be heard.

The Reidel mastering again has the thin flat sonic signature many have come to expect with dread.

I haven't heard the Writing for the King 69 material, and would be interested in hearing a report.

Why can't Jorgenson let someone else mix and master one of the 69 shows? Although Kevan Budd has built a reputation as a mono restoration specialist, I say give him a shot. Or Sebastian who did the great Elvis is Back FTD. Another great choice would be Vic Anesini of Sony who mastered the phenomenal first 3 discs of Close Up as well as 2nd To None. Vic is brilliant.

What engineer in their right mind would pass up an opportunity to mix and master a 1969 live Elvis performance? These shows can and deserve to sound much better. The FTD mixes sound like a slapdash afterthought that sonically disappoint on repeated listens. Frustrating.

Maybe someday Jorgenson will give someone else a shot.

Has their been any word on the Vegas show that was rumored for a BMG major label release this summer in a 2 disc set?



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Robert
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#357121

Post by Robert »

Poor sound on Elvis' records was the story of his life.
Too bad f*ck ups are made even today.

Elvis legacy deserves a better treatment.

I'd rather have a little less material released in the greatest sound in the world,
than numerous low budget mastered (live) FTD's as we are offered right now.

Baxter & Madison do a better job on Elvis live material,
I wonder what happens if these labels get access to multitrack recordings..

One thing I don't really get.
FTD is a fan label.
As in business, the consumer decides.
We respresent the market potential for FTD..

For the most part, we obviously don't appreciate Lene's mastering job.
Ernst knows this.

Why the hell not change things and assign another person for the job? :x

Cheers, RJ



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Marc Haegeman
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#357129

Post by Marc Haegeman »

Matthew, the "American Trilogy" CD only says "Mastered by Lene Reidel" but the released songs do sound like remixed as well - the orchestra is balanced much more forward, unless this is due to the mastering? Yet, whatever the reason - mix or mastering - it doesn't really matter; the main thing is that they DO sound different again (the setup of instruments and orchestra is again totally different), and IMO they aren't up to the highest standards as hinted at by other releases like "Love, Elvis". How many more different sounding versions do they have in store for us?




Guest

#357132

Post by Guest »

Robert wrote:
Why the hell not change things and assign another person for the job?
Perhaps because despite all the grumbles they still sell??

It seems we can't win here unless someone speaks to Ernst directly, voicing our concerns for a definitive answer to this question--Any volunteers?


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