how's the sound on new american trilogy FTD?

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Robert
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#358702

Post by Robert »

drjohncarpenter wrote:
Robert wrote:Poor sound on Elvis' records was the story of his life.
You must have a tiny Elvis collection.
Tiny enough to notice sound quality didn't do Elvis justice on most recordings made in Hollywood in the mid 60's.
Although it's "only" movie material, it's still a shame.
Soundwise, Nashville was the place to be.
Elvis' material recorded there is the best ever.

The Stax material is fine, but Elvis himself got mad about his faulty mic.. (Girl of mine)
I won't judge the '73/'76 "home recordings".
It was Elvis to blame he didn't want to go to Nashville anymore..

About Elvis live material on the original MSG release/Aloha&EIC:
Soundwise it's a joke. Please don't tell me you think these were mid 70's state of the art recordings Doc.
Thankfully Aloha is already remastered years ago.
MSG should be next...
Maybe start a poll on EIC? :wink:

To get back on topic, these 1972 Las Vegas recordings are one of the best live recordings around..

Soundboard quality from this engagement is also pretty good.



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#358750

Post by Jamie »

It is fair to say that some comments on here have gone way over the top. I am more than happy with the FTD label as are the vast majority who buy the product. We all know that the classic album series are usually top notch. But I also think it is fair to discuss views on sound quality relating to the live material. But whilst I think it is clear whats good and what isn't, it is also clear that is just my opinion. For every strong opinion I have about a live recording there are others who would disagree strongly the other way. It is obviously highly subjective.

I personally agree with Frus77 about the back to back comparisons. I wondered whether this was just a volume/compression issue but everything seems to be there on the Burning Love recordings and more. I don't think the FTD release is crap though. I think it's pretty good but I hoped for better. That's where I agree with Matt's comments - we should be able to question Tocano's approach to live releases not least just to actually understand their approach. From a customer perspective it would be good to understand this and it might end some of the negative discussions on this board. Again, just my view, but I don't think they are providing the quality service that Sony provides on it's main releases e.g. Elvis Live.

cheers Jamie


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#358758

Post by GERRY »

Hi i have heard every single FTD and every single release Ernst has overseen-i am not happy with the sound on any one of them- they are mixed differently-they are no fun-i cannot do anything with them as they are tamper proof.

Ernst isnt getting access to the multitrack tapes in a studio enviroment?

Studio time costs and Elvis and FTD aint making big money...

Thios is why

I prefer to have untouched bootleggs.



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#358856

Post by drjohncarpenter »

GERRY wrote:Hi i have heard every single FTD and every single release Ernst has overseen-i am not happy with the sound on any one of them ...
Have you, GERRY? Have you, really?

"Every single FTD and every single release Ernst has overseen" from 1990 to 2007??

You missed at least one: Elvis At SUN (BMG 2004).

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#358872

Post by deadringer »

GERRY wrote:Hi i have heard every single FTD and every single release Ernst has overseen-i am not happy with the sound on any one of them- they are mixed differently-they are no fun-i cannot do anything with them as they are tamper proof.

Ernst isnt getting access to the multitrack tapes in a studio enviroment?

Studio time costs and Elvis and FTD aint making big money...

Thios is why

I prefer to have untouched bootleggs.
What you mean by "untouched bootleggs" ?



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#358915

Post by YDKM »

Their have been some REALLY SILLY comments creeping in here now! a VERY big part of the problem is different people favour and hear things DIFFERENTLY- that would be a very LARGE part of the problem! :roll:


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Matthew

#358929

Post by Matthew »

YDKM wrote:Their have been some REALLY SILLY comments creeping in here now!
If by "here" you mean the message board as a whole I completely agree with you. The last couple of months have seen a small band of members posting comments usually ill informed, ignorant, just plain stupid, or designed simply to cause trouble. That they continue to do so is tedious and brings down the quality of the forum as a whole. I question whether these people are Elvis enthusiasts at all. I don’t need to name and shame; their posts speak volumes of their quality of character.




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#358973

Post by Juan Luis »

Matthew wrote:
Juan Luis wrote:And was it added reverb or oneof the ambience tracks that was on 16 track? Even if thats true maybe a little overdone..but as rob said first awhile back..it brought to him the deja vou of concert experience as well as it did to me...not in those words.
Ambience tracks?
I was not there when someone mixed this show for FTD...BUT 2 microphones were at the venue all the way back to capture applause AMBIENCE etc...If that had been mixed way up THEN it would have same effect as added echo.....BTW can anyone tell the difference between natural reverb,ambience etc from FAKE?I doubt it..plus the fact that Elvis' mic had local sound treatment etc....Even at outdoor events reverb etc. is added to singers voice...you may have noticed at least oncewhen someone on TV sounds really crappy...its because the audio person used the wrong UNTREATED feed...anyways a live recording that is echoless sounds like really really poor or bad..and it isn't natural as well! :lol:




Matthew

#359001

Post by Matthew »

Juan Luis wrote:
Matthew wrote:
Juan Luis wrote:And was it added reverb or oneof the ambience tracks that was on 16 track? Even if thats true maybe a little overdone..but as rob said first awhile back..it brought to him the deja vou of concert experience as well as it did to me...not in those words.
Ambience tracks?
I was not there when someone mixed this show for FTD...BUT 2 microphones were at the venue all the way back to capture applause AMBIENCE etc...If that had been mixed way up THEN it would have same effect as added echo.....BTW can anyone tell the difference between natural reverb,ambience etc from FAKE?I doubt it..plus the fact that Elvis' mic had local sound treatment etc....Even at outdoor events reverb etc. is added to singers voice...you may have noticed at least oncewhen someone on TV sounds really crappy...its because the audio person used the wrong UNTREATED feed...anyways a live recording that is echoless sounds like really really poor or bad..and it isn't natural as well! :lol:
I understand what you're saying but I just have a sneaking suspicion that the sheer level of reverb on the FTD is not natural but added after the effect. I don't quite know how to describe it other than it doesn't sound like a recording of reverb but rather a recording played through a reverb effect. I can of course be wrong.



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#359194

Post by drjohncarpenter »

Matthew wrote:... the sheer level of reverb on the FTD is not natural but added after the effect.
Matthew has hit upon the most likely scenario, although why the choice was made by Ernst and the reissue engineer is unclear. It is about the only drawback to the FTD set.

Felton Jarvis had to have taped some kind of ambient sounds back in 1974 -- or pulled something from the RCA archives -- as they are added to the 1974 LP master at various spots to create greater excitement. These were not utilized on the FTD release, and one reason could be that these tapes are now lost.


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#359281

Post by midnightx »

minkahed wrote:Although Ronnie's bass drum is a tad bit, (not much), more prominant on the FTD re-issue, what happened to the original mix of Recorded Live In Memphis :?:

It can't be due to that overblown fake applause ... :!: :?:

It's a great "LIVE" concert, (One of my favs), captured by RCA in 1974, but compared to some of the other "LIVE" records I have heard from other artists of that era, it does sound flat and with no punch at all.
You can't assume the entire show was "originally" mixed. Most likely Felton and crew picked the desired set-list to be used on the album and mixed the selected tracks.

What other live albums from other artists are you referring to from 1974?



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#360825

Post by midnightx »

Aside from disecting the sound on this release, everyone should be pleased that FTD finally issued these fantastic Jan/Feb recordings from the archives. This is one of the best live FTD releases so far.




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#360872

Post by minkahed »

midnightx wrote:
minkahed wrote:Although Ronnie's bass drum is a tad bit, (not much), more prominant on the FTD re-issue, what happened to the original mix of Recorded Live In Memphis :?:

It can't be due to that overblown fake applause ... :!: :?:

It's a great "LIVE" concert, (One of my favs), captured by RCA in 1974, but compared to some of the other "LIVE" records I have heard from other artists of that era, it does sound flat and with no punch at all.
You can't assume the entire show was "originally" mixed. Most likely Felton and crew picked the desired set-list to be used on the album and mixed the selected tracks.
I really wasn't assuming anything, but usually, records are mixed before the mastering process.

So, what your saying midnightx is Felton and Co. did not "Mix" the original concert tapes, but just released what was recorded as is :?:
What other live albums from other artists are you referring to from 1974?
Well, I already stated Live albums from that era, not specifically 1974, but one record that comes to mind is the fantastic 1975 Grand Funk Railroad Caught In The Act Live album. :wink:


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Matthew

#360875

Post by Matthew »

I think comparing Elvis live albums to rock bands of the era is a bit misleading. Consider the difference in recording circumstances. To record Elvis live many sources had to be mic’d up and assigned to a track on the multitrack tape: Elvis, James, John, Duke, Ronnie, Glen, Charlie, The Stamps, The Sweet Inspirations, Kathy, Voice, the orchestra, and the audience. Now I’m not sure how many tracks they had to work with but I think it was 16 track tape (please correct this info if I’m wrong). Pretty hard for everyone to get a separate track let alone assigning multiple tracks to a drum kit which on a tape like this would probably have been assigned a max of 2 tracks with a stereo balance achieved when recording. So you could have a spread like:

01 – Elvis
02 – James
03 – John
04 – Ronnie
05 – Ronnie
06 – Duke
07 – Glen
08 – Charlie vocals
09 – JD Sumner and the Stamps
10 – The Sweet Inspirations w/ Kathy
11 – Voice
12 – Orchestra
13 – Orchestra
14 – Audience
15 – Audience
16 – Spare: Orchestra/Audience/Kathy etc etc

Recording a rock band live at the time allows for greater freedom with the spread of tracks. With a 4 piece band with 2 vocalists you only have to find tracks for 2 vocals, 2 guitars, 1 bass, the drumkit, and the audience. The band could also use an electric piano etc but there is still greater breathing room to say mic up a drum kit and spread it over 3 or 4 tracks.




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#360891

Post by minkahed »

Matthew wrote:I think comparing Elvis live albums to rock bands of the era is a bit misleading. Consider the difference in recording circumstances. To record Elvis live many sources had to be mic’d up and assigned to a track on the multitrack tape: Elvis, James, John, Duke, Ronnie, Glen, Charlie, The Stamps, The Sweet Inspirations, Kathy, Voice, the orchestra, and the audience. Now I’m not sure how many tracks they had to work with but I think it was 16 track tape (please correct this info if I’m wrong). Pretty hard for everyone to get a separate track let alone assigning multiple tracks to a drum kit which on a tape like this would probably have been assigned a max of 2 tracks with a stereo balance achieved when recording. So you could have a spread like:

01 – Elvis
02 – James
03 – John
04 – Ronnie
05 – Ronnie
06 – Duke
07 – Glen
08 – Charlie vocals
09 – JD Sumner and the Stamps
10 – The Sweet Inspirations w/ Kathy
11 – Voice
12 – Orchestra
13 – Orchestra
14 – Audience
15 – Audience
16 – Spare: Orchestra/Audience/Kathy etc etc

Recording a rock band live at the time allows for greater freedom with the spread of tracks. With a 4 piece band with 2 vocalists you only have to find tracks for 2 vocals, 2 guitars, 1 bass, the drumkit, and the audience. The band could also use an electric piano etc but there is still greater breathing room to say mic up a drum kit and spread it over 3 or 4 tracks.
So Matthew, what was/is the excuse for alot of the poor mixing engineered on Elvis' records when he recorded in the studio :?:

Even YOU have praised the new mixes from 1995/2000 over the originals ...


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#360935

Post by Jamie »

Matt,

the split of tracks is a good one - highlighting the fact that you would soon fill up a 16 track mixing desk. I thought I read somewhere that the mobile recording studio used at the Memphis concert was only an 8 track but I could be wrong. I did a beginners coures in sound engineering a while back and part of the course was micking up studio instruments. We used 8 mics on the drum kit (snare above and below, hi hat, bass drum, 2 toms, 2 overheads). I've tried to see what the mics were on Ronnie's kit on the On Tour tape and I think I spotted four (I did this a while back) - snare, bass, 2 overheads.

Minkahead,

don't think there is an excuse on the studio material - other than perhaps the Stax material where I think they brought in a mobile recording truck to supplement/replace the house desk. Again, I think I read that but can't remember where, possibly Ernst book on recording sessions.

chers Jamie


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#360944

Post by frus75 »

Jamie wrote:Matt,

the split of tracks is a good one - highlighting the fact that you would soon fill up a 16 track mixing desk. I thought I read somewhere that the mobile recording studio used at the Memphis concert was only an 8 track but I could be wrong. I did a beginners coures in sound engineering a while back and part of the course was micking up studio instruments. We used 8 mics on the drum kit (snare above and below, hi hat, bass drum, 2 toms, 2 overheads). I've tried to see what the mics were on Ronnie's kit on the On Tour tape and I think I spotted four (I did this a while back) - snare, bass, 2 overheads.

Minkahead,

don't think there is an excuse on the studio material - other than perhaps the Stax material where I think they brought in a mobile recording truck to supplement/replace the house desk. Again, I think I read that but can't remember where, possibly Ernst book on recording sessions.

chers Jamie
you're right, I even thought that the memphis show was a 4 track recording....

the thing about stax is taken from ernst book and it was a decision made for the dec. sessions to avoid the sound problems that had taken place in the july sessions.


Iván

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Matthew

#361135

Post by Matthew »

minkahed wrote:So Matthew, what was/is the excuse for alot of the poor mixing engineered on Elvis' records when he recorded in the studio :?:

Even YOU have praised the new mixes from 1995/2000 over the originals ...
You would need to expand on just which sessions you are referring to. The only sessions I have drawn focused criticism to with regards to mixing/mastering are the Dec ’73 Stax sessions. I prefer the overall sound of the Promised Land upgrade featuring the 1995 Ferrante mixes to the original mixes generally but I do listen to both. Otherwise I fail to recall making comments on "the poor mixing engineered on Elvis' records". I also don't see what this has to do with 1970s live recordings anyway which my previous post addresses in some detail.



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#361164

Post by midnightx »

minkahed wrote:
midnightx wrote:
minkahed wrote:Although Ronnie's bass drum is a tad bit, (not much), more prominant on the FTD re-issue, what happened to the original mix of Recorded Live In Memphis :?:

It can't be due to that overblown fake applause ... :!: :?:

It's a great "LIVE" concert, (One of my favs), captured by RCA in 1974, but compared to some of the other "LIVE" records I have heard from other artists of that era, it does sound flat and with no punch at all.
You can't assume the entire show was "originally" mixed. Most likely Felton and crew picked the desired set-list to be used on the album and mixed the selected tracks.
I really wasn't assuming anything, but usually, records are mixed before the mastering process.

So, what your saying midnightx is Felton and Co. did not "Mix" the original concert tapes, but just released what was recorded as is :?:
What other live albums from other artists are you referring to from 1974?
Well, I already stated Live albums from that era, not specifically 1974, but one record that comes to mind is the fantastic 1975 Grand Funk Railroad Caught In The Act Live album. :wink:
Do you think Felton and Co. mixed the tapes of the entire show and then handpicked certain tracks for release? It is possible, but was not necessarily a common practice. Hendrix and Eddie Kramer listened to all 4 of his Fillmore East shows for the Band Of Gypsys project, but ultimately did not mix all 4 shows, but a portions from each which are now found on the original BOJ album and Live At The Fillmore releases. Tom Dowd did not originally mix all 4 of the March 1970 Fillmore East shows from the Allman Brother's historic run which made up their masterpiece At The Fillmore.

If you are talking about fantastic live albums from the 70's, no way does Recorded Live In Memphis hold up well against some of music's greatest live releases issued during that decade, but it saying it is flat and lacking punch isn't accurate.



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#361755

Post by Jamie »

Just as an aside - I was at the James Burton/Billy Swann gig in Newcastle last week ad the drummer had 6 mics. The venue is a small converted warehouse that holds about 300 max. Snare, hi hat, kick drum, 2 toms and 1 overhead. I was suprised there was only one overhead. But the sound at the gig was great despite it being a split level room with the room being split down the length of the horizontal rather than a traditional across the room split, if that makes sense?


cheers Jamie


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#362163

Post by minkahed »

I listened to the FTD AN AMERICAN TRILOGY last nite and today and I am very happy with this release.

My only tiny lil quibble about this release is the title.

Surely, the FTD team could, or can be, a bit more consistent and imaginative when it comes for searching or making up proper titles for the specific material we are being presented with.

I think Elvis is in fine vocal form and the band sounds raw and tight.

I played Hound Dog a few times and thought that ELvis and the TCB band were really grooving with that tune. the whole reverse fast first, slow second, tempo takes you for a spin when you are so used to the other way around.

Nevertheless, great cd in great sound.

By the way, was this January-February 1972 material ever mixed, or remixed :?:

Felton(e) :?: Ferantte :?:


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#362183

Post by Rob »

minkahed wrote:I listened to the FTD AN AMERICAN TRILOGY last nite and today and I am very happy with this release.
To think you had doubts about it. Would I lie to you?



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#362321

Post by Rich_TCB »

An American Trilogy is a fantastic CD.

I've been waiting for this FTD to come out, and it was worth the wait. There are some terrific versions of "Proud Mary", "You Gave Me A Mountain", and "Never Been To Spain". And the sound quality is excellent.

This is one of the best FTD's ever released.

Two thumbs up

:smt023 :smt023

Rich


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#362760

Post by PiersEIN »

Hi Gang,
In reviewing Elvis CDs I always search for the positives.
After all, what's the point in saying that the 'Double Trouble' or 'Paradise Hawaiian Style' FTDs contained bad songs?

People who buy them presumably like the material and if there are some fun new outakes, Elvis studio interaction or audio improvement then that is what is worth investigating.
Even a real stinker like 'PHS' is pretty good fun as presented by FTD.

Of course not all of us are lucky enough to afford a good quality HiFi to be able to appreciate the great work that Kevan Budd, Sebastian etc do with the new Elvis releases.
I am sure that a lot of fans will listen to the DSD audio improved CDS in their cars, on low-end stereo systems, even on iPods.
However BMG obviously know that it IS a major selling-point since they regularly place stickers on the CD covers "DSD audio from Master recordings" etc.

However in the end it IS assuredly the content that matters the most.

So let's get on to 'An American Trilogy'.
Yes it is a great early 1972 live track selection. :smt023 agreed.
Maybe it could have done with filling up with more Opening Night tunes but, hey, perhaps I'm just being greedy.

But reading Johnny Savage's FECC review here today ... "the improvement in audio quality by engineer Lene Reidel, as with the entire CD, is terrific."
Yes, the Opening Night is fabulously improved over the old bootleg, but the "Whole CD" - I don't think so!

Lene Reidel may not have the luxury of labours-of-love time that die-hards like Kevan & Sebastian do but this CD is a real step backwards from previous issues of the same material.

Did she not listen to the 'Burning Love' compile which had a far more impressive high-end?
Listen to the crispness to Ronnie Tutt's cymbals on earlier 'It's Over' releases.

What about Vic Anesini's wonderful work with 'The Impossible Dream' on 'Elvis: Inspirational' which positively shimmers, and is better still?
Did Lene never listen to the most recently released version of the work she was doing?
(And yes, there is a digital splat at 04:09 on 'It's Impossible')

But what really s**ts me here is even noticeable on my crappy car stereo!
What on earth is James Burton's guitar doing mixed to the left and Glen D Hardin's piano stuck on the right channel with the orchestra strings and backing vocals?

Was Glen's piano ever on the right of the stage next to The Stamps? I don't think so.
I even had to check that the CD channels weren't mistakenly reversed. But they are not, she has positively mixed it this way. (Bring back Dennis!).

But does this actually make any difference to the music?
Well actually to me it does, and that's why I noticed.

Did Glen Hardin arrange 'It's Impossible'?
If he did, he should be most annoyed as now that fabulous piano intro (left channel on all releases so far) is buried on the right channel with the orchestra. It's hardly there at all. Same on 'It's Over'.
In fact Glen's piano is messed around like this on the whole CD.

And then what about that lovely part where J D Sumner joins in with Elvis on 'The Impossible Dream'?
Well guess what, that's also (nearly) mixed out too.

Maybe Lene wanted to present us with 'different' mixes so that we weren't buying the same mixed tracks all over again, but I doubt it. The multi-track part of the CD overall is missing high-end treble, so something more is going on.

Now as I said, I do look for the good things in reviews so I won't add so much audio detail to my EIN review - but this is a great forum to share my feelings as you all understand.

I hope that Johnny Savage paid for his 'An American Trilogy' FTD as I did.

Yes, the content is very fine indeed as my EIN review will state, but I would like to see Johnny Savage explain how he thinks that "the improvement in audio quality by engineer Lene Reidel is terrific on the entire CD".

Cheers
Piers



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#362794

Post by frus75 »

Piers, you hit it. I am sure we would agree that this particular recordings made in february 72 are the best elvis live recordings (like sinatra's september 63 recordings at the sands). You could even spot the people noises while eating in the dinner shows selections.

1995 mixes had shown us how good they could sound. And in 1999, ferrante mixed hound dog and little sister for the burning love compilation. And you could hear that these 2 tracks sounded even better than the rest.


So everything was ready in 2007 to do a killer live compilation album on ftd. The result: a complete disaster. I should insist that is not only how that particular cd sounds, but how IT COULD AND SHOULD SOUND.

The worst thing is that they won't be re-released.


Iván

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