All posts with more than 3000 Hits, prior to 2008

Thu Nov 16, 2006 8:19 pm

Memphis Flash wrote:But I enjoy facts.


As do I.

I tend to enjoy finding them in well-written books and from sources without a major bias and slutty writing style, however. Maybe that's just just me.

While Goldman's book has its uses, so did the two A-bombs on Japan. So did Adolf Hitler rising to power. And on and on... It doesn't mean these things are worthy of praise or veneration. Good can arise from bad, and bad often stimulates the good into being. I despise Michael Moore and his equally leacherous and phoney films like "Bowling For Columbine", but I do accept they have their place, and for all their distortions and lies, can actually provoke people into researching issues and speaking out. We're not saying anything different, are we, Memphis Flash?

The ONLY thing I feel I should challenge you on is the claim that Goldman's descriptions were/are accurate. OK, let's assume those particular ones are. But how could you know they were accurate without significantly greater research beyond his book? Because Goldman filled his book with venom and junk, there was no way any of it could be taken at face value if one was being logical and objective, but many people were not. Great: he got some things right. But the book is so hideously polluted and warped that you could just as well - and, in fact, needed to -- learn those things from some place else.

Nonetheless: in broader historical terms, I agree with you. Negativity is an extremely powerful motivator on multiple levels. Without Goldman, some people might never have taken their fandom to the next level after encountering his bile (then again, he could have turned a great many potential fans off Elvis, though an argument can be made that *those* people, if so easily fooled, aren't worth having).

Memphis Flash wrote:
JLGB wrote:Elvis did great but 68 special was CREATED tv magic not real magic on the stage like in the 69 comeback or 50s explosion. On a regular ,live setting it would have bombed. The editing played major role.


So what? It worked, didn't it? I don't see any reason to even bring it up, unless to imply Elvis was a bit out of practice.

Can anyone name any other single performer who accomplished so much in such a short period of time? I cannot think of any.


I'll better you, Ms Flash.

Stand back while I tear JLGB a new one. :wink:

JLGB: The REAL magic captured in those NBC Studios was and is without artifice. The REAL magic was and is Elvis Presley, sat down in a "little theater", performing at the top of his game. And those were two live shows. All Binder had to do was roll the cameras and then *not* botch the footage in editing. That's it. His other ideas -- namely, a stand-up segment with an unpractised orchestra, not to mention untested sound levels and overblown arrangements, the cheesy production numbers which dragged Elvis *right* back to his "employee in his own movie studio" cage and a powerful song like "If I Can Dream" backed with a pre-recorded "Broadway Musical Lite" sludge-pudge instrumental -- were all....... C-R-A-P. Elvis obliged because his career needed digging out of a hole and he didn't have the confidence or the know-how to do it all by himself. Everything Binder did, to borrow one of Goldman's overblown but oh-so-apt phrases, "travestied and soft-soaped" Elvis Aaron Presley; everything Elvis Aaron Presley did only showed him for the demigod of a performer he was. No, Elvis was not and never could be "Superman", but he was firing on all cylinders in 1968, and Binder's ideas only blunted his edges and obscured his true greatness.

Re: sheila Ryan book

Thu Nov 16, 2006 8:27 pm

sid wrote:
So you think he would have married Ginger then?

And did Anita leave Graceland because Priscilla came on the scene?


No idea what he would have done, but she certainly believed they were going to get married that Christmas from the things he told her. Others say differently so I just don't know. But Kathy Westmoreland has said in interviews that he really wanted to make that work. Even David Stanley commented that Elvis never opened himself up to Priscilla but he did to Ginger.

But either way it was not to be.

As far as Anita Wood, she apparently was coming down the stairs at Graceland and overheard Elvis saying that he wasn't sure what to do about her. So she confronted him and said she was going to save him the trouble of making a decision, that she was going to leave. And she did.

I was sitting a few feet away from Larry King during his show where he had Patti Parry, Jerry Schilling and Kathy Westmoreland in studio and Anita Wood and Lamar Fike by satellite. Only those with earpieces could hear what Anita was saying, but Elvis once reminisced to Kathy about all his former girlfriends, and he spoke the fondest about Anita Wood, saying how much fun they had.

Thu Nov 16, 2006 8:29 pm

Cryogenic wrote:
Memphis Flash wrote:But I enjoy facts.


As do I.

I tend to enjoy finding them in well-written books and from sources without a major bias and slutty writing style, however. Maybe that's just just me.

While Goldman's book has its uses, so did the two A-bombs on Japan. So did Adolf Hitler rising to power. And on and on... It doesn't mean these things are worthy of praise or veneration. Good can arise from bad, and bad often stimulates the good into being. I despise Michael Moore and his equally leacherous and phoney films like "Bowling For Columbine", but I do accept they have their place, and for all their distortions and lies, can actually provoke people into researching issues and speaking out. We're not saying anything different, are we, Memphis Flash?

The ONLY thing I feel I should challenge you on is the claim that Goldman's descriptions were/are accurate. OK, let's assume those particular ones are. But how could you know they were accurate without significantly greater research beyond his book? Because Goldman filled his book with venom and junk, there was no way any of it could be taken at face value if one was being logical and objective, but many people were not. Great: he got some things right. But the book is so hideously polluted and warped that you could just as well - and, in fact, needed to -- learn those things from some place else.

Nonetheless: in broader historical terms, I agree with you. Negativity is an extremely powerful motivator on multiple levels. Without Goldman, some people might never have taken their fandom to the next level after encountering his bile (then again, he could have turned a great many potential fans off Elvis, though an argument can be made that *those* people, if so easily fooled, aren't worth having).

Memphis Flash wrote:
JLGB wrote:Elvis did great but 68 special was CREATED tv magic not real magic on the stage like in the 69 comeback or 50s explosion. On a regular ,live setting it would have bombed. The editing played major role.


So what? It worked, didn't it? I don't see any reason to even bring it up, unless to imply Elvis was a bit out of practice.

Can anyone name any other single performer who accomplished so much in such a short period of time? I cannot think of any.


I'll better you, Ms Flash.

Stand back while I tear JLGB a new one. :wink:

JLGB: The REAL magic captured in those NBC Studios was and is without artifice. The REAL magic was and is Elvis Presley, sat down in a "little theater", performing at the top of his game. And those were two live shows. All Binder had to do was roll the cameras and then *not* botch the footage in editing. That's it. His other ideas -- namely, a stand-up segment with an unpractised orchestra, not to mention untested sound levels and overblown arrangements, the cheesy production numbers which dragged Elvis *right* back to his "employee in his own movie studio" cage and a powerful song like "If I Can Dream" backed with a pre-recorded "Broadway Musical Lite" sludge-pudge instrumental -- were all....... C-R-A-P. Elvis obliged because his career needed digging out of a hole and he didn't have the confidence or the know-how to do it all by himself. Everything Binder did, to borrow one of Goldman's overblown but oh-so-apt phrases, "travestied and soft-soaped" Elvis Aaron Presley; everything Elvis Aaron Presley did only showed him for the demigod of a performer he was. No, Elvis was not and never could be "Superman", but he was firing on all cylinders in 1968, and Binder's ideas only blunted his edges and obscured his true greatness.


Well said Cryo. Just to add to this, the fact that Binder wanted to film him jamming in his dressing room, shows the greatness that was Elvis Presley.

Thu Nov 16, 2006 8:35 pm

Cryogenic wrote:
Memphis Flash wrote:But I enjoy facts.


As do I.

I tend to enjoy finding them in well-written books and from sources without a major bias and slutty writing style, however. Maybe that's just just me.

While Goldman's book has its uses, so did the two A-bombs on Japan. So did Adolf Hitler rising to power. And on and on... It doesn't mean these things are worthy of praise or veneration. Good can arise from bad, and bad often stimulates the good into being. I despise Michael Moore and his equally leacherous and phoney films like "Bowling For Columbine", but I do accept they have their place, and for all their distortions and lies, can actually provoke people into researching issues and speaking out. We're not saying anything different, are we, Memphis Flash?

The ONLY thing I feel I should challenge you on is the claim that Goldman's descriptions were/are accurate. OK, let's assume those particular ones are. But how could you know they were accurate without significantly greater research beyond his book? Because Goldman filled his book with venom and junk, there was no way any of it could be taken at face value if one was being logical and objective, but many people were not. Great: he got some things right. But the book is so hideously polluted and warped that you could just as well - and, in fact, needed to -- learn those things from some place else.

Nonetheless: in broader historical terms, I agree with you. Negativity is an extremely powerful motivator on multiple levels. Without Goldman, some people might never have taken their fandom to the next level after encountering his bile (then again, he could have turned a great many potential fans off Elvis, though an argument can be made that *those* people, if so easily fooled, aren't worth having).

Memphis Flash wrote:
JLGB wrote:Elvis did great but 68 special was CREATED tv magic not real magic on the stage like in the 69 comeback or 50s explosion. On a regular ,live setting it would have bombed. The editing played major role.


So what? It worked, didn't it? I don't see any reason to even bring it up, unless to imply Elvis was a bit out of practice.

Can anyone name any other single performer who accomplished so much in such a short period of time? I cannot think of any.


I'll better you, Ms Flash.

Stand back while I tear JLGB a new one. :wink:

JLGB: The REAL magic captured in those NBC Studios without artifice. The REAL magic was Elvis Presley, sat down in a "little theater", performing at the top of his game. And those were two live shows. All Binder had to do was roll the cameras and then *not* botch the footage in editing. That's it. His other ideas -- namely, a stand-up segment with an unpractised orchestra, not to mention untested sound levels and overblown arrangements, the cheesy production numbers and a powerful song like "If I Can Dream" backed with a pre-recorded "Broadway Musical Lite" sludge-pudge instrumental -- were all....... C-R-A-P. Elvis obliged because his career needed digging out of a hole and he didn't have the confidence or the know-how to do it all by himself. Everything Binder did, to borrow one of Goldman's overblown but oh-so-apt phrases, "travestied and soft-soaped" Elvis Aaron Presley; everything Elvis Aaron Presley did only showed him for the demigod of a performer he was.
After 4 hours of performing plus dozens of hours more for the rest including the great If I Can Dream closing...the magic BEGAN with EDITING and then finally the medium the ole' Colonel used to great,great effect!!! T-E-L-E-V-I-S-I-O-N. Specially in C-O-L-O-R!!!!!...some countries had B/W as late as the late 70s....MAGIC!! :lol:

Thu Nov 16, 2006 8:35 pm

Cryogenic wrote:
JLGB: The REAL magic captured in those NBC Studios was and is without artifice. The REAL magic was and is Elvis Presley, sat down in a "little theater", performing at the top of his game. And those were two live shows. All Binder had to do was roll the cameras and then *not* botch the footage in editing. That's it. His other ideas -- namely, a stand-up segment with an unpractised orchestra, not to mention untested sound levels and overblown arrangements, the cheesy production numbers which dragged Elvis *right* back to his "employee in his own movie studio" cage and a powerful song like "If I Can Dream" backed with a pre-recorded "Broadway Musical Lite" sludge-pudge instrumental -- were all....... C-R-A-P. Elvis obliged because his career needed digging out of a hole and he didn't have the confidence or the know-how to do it all by himself. Everything Binder did, to borrow one of Goldman's overblown but oh-so-apt phrases, "travestied and soft-soaped" Elvis Aaron Presley; everything Elvis Aaron Presley did only showed him for the demigod of a performer he was. No, Elvis was not and never could be "Superman", but he was firing on all cylinders in 1968, and Binder's ideas only blunted his edges and obscured his true greatness.


Bravo!!! You nailed it perfectly. Those production numbers were embarrassingly lame, and about as far from a stroke of genius as one could get.

For the record, I have always disliked Binder's stunt, if it's true, of taking Elvis out on the street to demonstrate to him that he was passe'. F*ck Binder. But at least he did override the Colonel's awful ideas. (By the way, the Colonel told Kathy Westmoreland - who he wanted to record a la Kate Smith, with just a piano - that if he'd had his way, "It would be just Elvis and his guitar.'

Thu Nov 16, 2006 8:35 pm

Thanks for that. I always thought Ginger was a sweet girl, and who knows she may have been the best thing for him. I remember the interview with Geraldo and she said then that Elvis had been talking about the wedding plans for Christmas time on the evening before he died.

As for Anita,I dont know much about her but after hearing that I feel quite sorry for her.

I have read some of the transcripts from the Larry King show with Priscilla and Lisa Marie on but couldnt find anymore,I bet they were good

Thu Nov 16, 2006 8:39 pm

Memphis Flash wrote:
sid wrote:
So you think he would have married Ginger then?

And did Anita leave Graceland because Priscilla came on the scene?


No idea what he would have done, but she certainly believed they were going to get married that Christmas from the things he told her. Others say differently so I just don't know. But Kathy Westmoreland has said in interviews that he really wanted to make that work. Even David Stanley commented that Elvis never opened himself up to Priscilla but he did to Ginger.

But either way it was not to be.


I'm not sure Elvis was actually going to marry Ginger. Not until she started doing his bidding and conforming to his idealised image of her, anyway. (Which was never going to happen).

According to many, and the historical record certainly bears this out, he was obsessed with Ginger. Dr Nick claims that Elvis saw something of his mother in Ginger's face. I believe him on that. (Though Elvis was certainly capable of seeing women who didn't necessarily have such a characteristic, or, from the myriad of women he was romantically involved with, I'd *imagine* that was the case -- though was he capable of thinking marriage with them?). The Oedipal component of the Elvis Legacy cannot be ignored. Note: I am not making any moral judgements about that; it is what it is. (Though, for the record, it can't have been healthy; not if it caused him to concern himself with women who were completely unsuitable for him long-term).

Joe Car wrote:Well said Cryo. Just to add to this, the fact that Binder wanted to film him jamming in his dressing room, shows the greatness that was Elvis Presley.


Indeed.

I will say this much: like the argument with the Goldman book, it's possible that Elvis was inspired by the negative element of the orchestra, and saw something he could salvage and improve upon. The orchestra he then brought into his shows completely LEVELLED the crappy Burbank one (not that any of those original players were necessarily crap; they just didn't gell with him during recording -- rehearsals, Binder, rehearsals!!!). And "Jailhouse Rock", not to mention the off-the-cuff rendition of "Baby What You Want Me To Do", are performed so well that the stand-up segment is a legitimate part of Elvis' performance history. (Though, again, we had to wait to see the "Baby What You Want Me To Do" jam; but I don't hold Binder responsible for this; he only had a limited time to play with and the jam was never foreseen).

Memphis Flash wrote:Bravo!!! You nailed it perfectly. Those production numbers were embarrassingly lame, and about as far from a stroke of genius as one could get.

For the record, I have always disliked Binder's stunt, if it's true, of taking Elvis out on the street to demonstrate to him that he was passe'. F*ck Binder. But at least he did override the Colonel's awful ideas. (By the way, the Colonel told Kathy Westmoreland - who he wanted to record a la Kate Smith, with just a piano - that if he'd had his way, "It would be just Elvis and his guitar.'


The Colonel's basic idea -- a Christmas show -- was NO WHERE NEAR as bad as Binder's. That's my controversial opinion, anyway. Binder had his finger on what made Elvis tick, allegedly, yet he reduced him to a crude circus act (no better than anything Parker had done, with a KEY DIFFERENCE being that Parker never professed to having an artistic knowledge). None of The Colonel's ideas were inherently bad. A Christmas show would have been cool. Really cool. But that's not what Elvis needed at the time. I'm sure The Colonel knew that deep down. That's why he kicked up a stink but did nothing to contradict or override Binder. Parker knew there that Elvis had fire in his belly and was going to make it work. A happy artist is a productive artist. And The Colonel knew he would still get a load out of it. So all was good. I do love all his showboating, personally. That was who *he* was, just as Elvis was who he was. They were two pretty straight-up guys when you get down to it (though The Colonel would have seemed like an enigma at the time). They were like the ultimate father and son team. Elvis had Vernon and he had The Colonel. And The Colonel had Elvis. I really do think he saw him as the handsome son he could never have had. The Colonel just had his strict carny ways, and Elvis, being his "boy", was too obliging. But I credit them both WAAAAAAY more than Binder. Ol' Colonel was a *very* wise man.
Last edited by Cryogenic on Thu Nov 16, 2006 9:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Thu Nov 16, 2006 8:41 pm

Memphis Flash wrote:
Cryogenic wrote:
JLGB: The REAL magic captured in those NBC Studios was and is without artifice. The REAL magic was and is Elvis Presley, sat down in a "little theater", performing at the top of his game. And those were two live shows. All Binder had to do was roll the cameras and then *not* botch the footage in editing. That's it. His other ideas -- namely, a stand-up segment with an unpractised orchestra, not to mention untested sound levels and overblown arrangements, the cheesy production numbers which dragged Elvis *right* back to his "employee in his own movie studio" cage and a powerful song like "If I Can Dream" backed with a pre-recorded "Broadway Musical Lite" sludge-pudge instrumental -- were all....... C-R-A-P. Elvis obliged because his career needed digging out of a hole and he didn't have the confidence or the know-how to do it all by himself. Everything Binder did, to borrow one of Goldman's overblown but oh-so-apt phrases, "travestied and soft-soaped" Elvis Aaron Presley; everything Elvis Aaron Presley did only showed him for the demigod of a performer he was. No, Elvis was not and never could be "Superman", but he was firing on all cylinders in 1968, and Binder's ideas only blunted his edges and obscured his true greatness.


Bravo!!! You nailed it perfectly. Those production numbers were embarrassingly lame, and about as far from a stroke of genius as one could get.

For the record, I have always disliked Binder's stunt, if it's true, of taking Elvis out on the street to demonstrate to him that he was passe'. F*ck Binder. But at least he did override the Colonel's awful ideas. (By the way, the Colonel told Kathy Westmoreland - who he wanted to record a la Kate Smith, with just a piano - that if he'd had his way, "It would be just Elvis and his guitar.'


Elvis, his guitar and no Colonel would have been fine with me!

Thu Nov 16, 2006 8:44 pm

Joe Car wrote:
Cryogenic wrote:[quote="Memphis Flash"

Stand back while I tear JLGB a new one. :wink: .
Watch it kiddy! just because you have a rich vocabulary does not mean you have any type of authority to disrespect!!!! Don't overestimate yourself..or rather underestimate me!!!! On M-U-L-T-I-P-L-E levels!! :lol: PS...N8 sounds much better AGAIN on multiple levels...

Thu Nov 16, 2006 8:50 pm

JLGB wrote:
Cryogenic wrote:Stand back while I tear JLGB a new one. :wink: .
Watch it kiddy! just because you have a rich vocabulary does not mean you have any type of authority to disrespect!!!! Don't overestimate yourself..or rather underestimate me!!!! On M-U-L-T-I-P-L-E levels!! :lol: PS...N8 sounds much better AGAIN on multiple levels...


You really ought to stop thinking I'm N8.

I'm not N8, I'm not Jimmy Hoffa, I'm not the Easter Bunny, I'm not a Sith Lord...

I'm just... me. :D

Thu Nov 16, 2006 9:01 pm

Cryogenic wrote: Dr Nick claims that Elvis saw something of his mother in Ginger's face. I believe him on that. (Though Elvis was certainly capable of seeing women who didn't necessarily have such a characteristic, or, from the myriad of women he was romantically involved with, I'd *imagine* that was the case -- though was he capable of thinking marriage with them?). The Oedipal component of the Elvis Legacy cannot be ignored. Note: I am not making any moral judgements about that; it is what it is. (Though, for the record, it can't have been healthy; not if it caused him to concern himself with women who were completely unsuitable for him long-term).


For that matter, Larry Geller claims that Elvis had a dream that Ginger morphed into his mother as she was riding a horse or something, it's been a long time since I read it but there was some connection he made between Ginger and his mother.

Hmm, I'll have to think about that.

Offhand I don't see much physical similarity. I think he just made those connections where sometimes there weren't any. Case in point, he told Kathy Westmoreland how much she and he were alike, and how much they even looked alike, the same hooded eyes, the same shaped backside, that in a jumpsuit she looked like a smaller version of him. Do you see it? I don't. Again, I think it's projection more than anything else.

Interestingly, Alfred Wertheimer once commented to me that in his younger years Elvis looked like his father, but that as he grew older, he looked more like his mother. I had never thought about that before, but he was an interesting combination of both.

Regardless of whether he was just feeding Ginger a line when they talked about their Christmas wedding just a few hours before he passed away, it has had a profound impact on Ginger's life. I did not realize it until I read an interview (which she rarely gives) that Christmas is always a sad holiday for her, because that's when she and Elvis had planned to marry.

Think of it. Here she has a husband and a young son, and the holiday which is supposed to be happy has always been sad for her? How tragic. And to those who claim she told all to the tabloids, hell, she didn't even tell her own son she had dated Elvis until just before the 25th anniversary when it was I think almost 9 years old. She feared he would hear about it from someone at school.

Ironically, just a year earlier Hunter had asked Ginger about Elvis. Don't remember how it came up, but he brought up the name. And all she said then was that he was not only a great singer but a wonderful person as well. Never even hinted that she had known him. That's how private Ginger was, and is. All the lies she has had to endure. Oh well, that's life, and she never defends herself so I won't bother.

Thu Nov 16, 2006 9:05 pm

Cryogenic wrote:
You really ought to stop thinking I'm N8.

I'm not N8, I'm not Jimmy Hoffa, I'm not the Easter Bunny, I'm not a Sith Lord...

I'm just... me. :D


Oh no, not N8, not in a million years.

N8 could never write like that, could never think like that. And had a much nastier edge.

Thu Nov 16, 2006 9:07 pm

I'd be weary of Larry Geller and Ginger Alden.

Then again: I'd be weary of Dr Nick.

I just think he is relatively trust-worthy on non-medical aspects of EP's life that he was privvy to.

That said.........

Everyone has pieces of the puzzle. Geller actually said that there was "no way" Elvis was actually going to marry Ginger. I think he saw a side I spoke of back there: that Ginger and Elvis just weren't suited. I wonder who *was* suited to Elvis. Geller also claims he spoke to Elvis on a hotel balcony and told him he'd only ever had one love affair his whole life. Elvis demanded to know what he was talking about; Geller clarified: "your fans." EP agreed.

EDIT: N8 is a true friend of mine. While I have no idea what he's like in "real life", I have never seen a hint of nastiness from him on the Internet. Ever. He is straight and to the point, but has a patience. He has certainly shown it to me and I will be forever grateful that someone of his standing extended it.*

*OK: That last sentence sounded...... BAAAAAAAAD. (If you have a dirty mind). He has certainly shown his patience to me and I will be forever grateful that someone of his knowledge and intellect offered it.

Thu Nov 16, 2006 9:21 pm

Cryogenic wrote:I'd be weary of Larry Geller and Ginger Alden.

Then again: I'd be weary of Dr Nick.

I just think he is relatively trust-worthy on non-medical aspects of EP's life that he was privvy to.

That said.........

Everyone has pieces of the puzzle. Geller actually said that there was "no way" Elvis was actually going to marry Ginger. I think he saw a side I spoke of back there: that Ginger and Elvis just weren't suited. I wonder who *was* suited to Elvis. Geller also claims he spoke to Elvis on a hotel balcony and told him he'd only ever had one love affair his whole life. Elvis demanded to know what he was talking about; Geller clarified: "your fans." EP agreed.


Sorry but I have learned that some who appear to be trustworthy actually are not. And that's all I'm going to say about that. About the fans being Elvis' number one love, who doesn't know that? That's self-evident.

Joe Esposito made an interesting comment: He said if [someone] had actually kept a diary for Elvis, "it would have been the first book he wrote, not the third."

The reason people do not simply have pieces of a puzzle that you could put them together and figure out Elvis is that Elvis controlled what each person saw. Joe told Peter Guralnick that if he wanted to know about Elvis, he would have to talk to the women, because Elvis did not open himself up to men, that he put on a macho front to the guys. He could be soft and vulnerable in front of the women.

Even what Priscilla saw was not necessarily the real Elvis. Elvis told Ginger that Priscilla asked to borrow the Lisa Marie to take her hairdresser boyfriend Elie Ezerzer on safari to Africa, and that she wanted Elvis to set up her father in the wine business. "She's crazy if she thinks I'm going to do that," he said. But who thinks for a moment that's what he told Priscilla? You know he was far more tactful to her, gave her some other excuse. So no, I don't believe that anybody but Elvis knows what he really thought about any given thing.

Thu Nov 16, 2006 9:29 pm

Cryogenic wrote:N8 is a true friend of mine. While I have no idea what he's like in "real life", I have never seen a hint of nastiness from him on the Internet. Ever. He is straight and to the point, but has a patience. He has certainly shown it to me and I will be forever grateful that someone of his standing extended it.


That's your truth. But it would be a mistake to assume that is everyone's truth. Believe me, he knows and tries to control his edge.

Thu Nov 16, 2006 9:36 pm

Memphis Flash wrote:Sorry but I have learned that some who appear to be trustworthy actually are not. And that's all I'm going to say about that. About the fans being Elvis' number one love, who doesn't know that? That's self-evident.

Joe Esposito made an interesting comment: He said if [someone] had actually kept a diary for Elvis, "it would have been the first book he wrote, not the third."


I'm no fan of Geller, but he has part in assembling the bigger picture.

One thing that creeps me out: in the same book I was drawing that last quotation from, he claims to have been the last person to touch Elvis before the casket was sealed. Ugh. Of *all* people.

(Thank goodness that Elvis' vital organs had already been removed for Larry's sake, or he might just have come back to life with sheer disgust and strangled the freaky imp).

Memphis Flash wrote:The reason people do not simply have pieces of a puzzle that you could put them together and figure out Elvis is that Elvis controlled what each person saw. Joe told Peter Guralnick that if he wanted to know about Elvis, he would have to talk to the women, because Elvis did not open himself up to men, that he put on a macho front to the guys. He could be soft and vulnerable in front of the women.


This is true. And it's *exactly* why you need everyone and everything to begin to make sense of who Elvis was and the life he actually lead. It starts at the music and flows from there. As a wise man said: it's all about the music and so much more. :wink:

Memphis Flash wrote:Even what Priscilla saw was not necessarily the real Elvis. Elvis told Ginger that Priscilla asked to borrow the Lisa Marie to take her hairdresser boyfriend Elie Ezerzer on safari to Africa, and that she wanted Elvis to set up her father in the wine business. "She's crazy if she thinks I'm going to do that," he said. But who thinks for a moment that's what he told Priscilla? You know he was far more tactful to her, gave her some other excuse. So no, I don't believe that anybody but Elvis knows what he really thought about any given thing.


Elvis thought... therefore, he was. -- Descartes (kinda)

Much agreed.

But his thoughts can be extrapolated and approximated by studying all the accounts and evidence for long enough. And there is an apt saying: actions speak louder than words. Elvis was a man of few words, at least in public, yet his filmed behaviour reveals a lot. But it isn't definitive in and of itself. It's the whole tapestry that's important. We can stitch Elvis back together and construct ourselves a Quasi-Elvis with enough research. You just need a critical mind and a lot of time.

Memphis Flash wrote:
Cryogenic wrote:N8 is a true friend of mine. While I have no idea what he's like in "real life", I have never seen a hint of nastiness from him on the Internet. Ever. He is straight and to the point, but has a patience. He has certainly shown it to me and I will be forever grateful that someone of his standing extended it.


That's your truth. But it would be a mistake to assume that is everyone's truth. Believe me, he knows and tries to control his edge.


You sound like his wife. :P

In all seriousness: I don't like people trashing other people I admire. And I admire N8 very much.

Thu Nov 16, 2006 9:46 pm

.
Last edited by Memphis Flash on Thu Nov 16, 2006 9:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Thu Nov 16, 2006 9:47 pm

Cryogenic wrote:
In all seriousness: I don't like people trashing other people I admire. And I admire N8 very much.


You don't have to like it. He earned it. In spades.

Thu Nov 16, 2006 9:48 pm

Memphis Flash wrote:It's human nature, nothing new.


Agreed.

Have my own experiences here.

Memphis Flash wrote:
Cryogenic wrote:
In all seriousness: I don't like people trashing other people I admire. And I admire N8 very much.


You don't have to like it. He earned it. In spades.


I can say that Elvis earned Goldman's book... but he didn't.

What's your beef with N8? He never did a single thing wrong on this board. I don't know every last one of his posts, but I am familiar with many of them, not to mention his style and intellect overall. You're entitled to your opinions, but you wouldn't like it if I trashed your friends. PM me with your claims/evidence if you prefer. But I don't like seeing good people slandered.

Thu Nov 16, 2006 10:03 pm

Oh yes, right on this board. How long have you been here? January?

It's not worth my time to go into any history, and you are welcome to your reverie.

Nobody is perfect, in any event, so it should not matter a great deal to you.

Thu Nov 16, 2006 10:27 pm

Memphis Flash wrote:Oh yes, right on this board. How long have you been here? January?


Just a quick FYI:

I lurked way before then. And there is such a thing as the "Search" and "Find all posts by [member]" functions.

Memphis Flash wrote:It's not worth my time to go into any history, and you are welcome to your reverie.

Nobody is perfect, in any event, so it should not matter a great deal to you.


"Nobody is perfect". Interesting rhetoric. I can almost hear people defending the Goldman material with that line. :lol:

I like you, Memphis Flash, but I feel you are bitterly wrong on this issue, and your assumptions about me, combined with your unwillingness to explain your assessment of a good friend, lose you credibility. Shame.

Thu Nov 16, 2006 10:44 pm

Cryogenic wrote:\

I like you, Memphis Flash, but I feel you are bitterly wrong on this issue, and your assumptions about me, combined with your unwillingness to explain your assessment of a good friend, lose you credibility. Shame.


Have I made any assumptions about you? I don't recall making any but correct me if I have.

I am not worried about my credibility. Not at all. Sorry if I don't care to go into detail about someone who behaved as an absolute a sshole. Almost totally unjustified unless one can complain about unanswered PMs.

Any number of people here have witnessed, or been the brunt of, the behavior I am talking about, and I am sorry that you had to hear that there was no Santa Claus. It's wonderful that you didn't know it existed, because that says a lot about improved behavior. I always applaud that.

Some things are best forgotten. If you are burning to know the details, PM me and I'll consider it. But life is too short to dwell in the past, unless it is Elvis we are discussing.

Sorry if that isn't the answer you were looking for, but sometimes you just have to trust that someone knows what they are talking about. You are of course free to write them off as what, bitterly mistaken. That is your prerogative. Sometimes we just have to agree to disagree.

Thu Nov 16, 2006 10:49 pm

It seems that just about everyone that was close to Elvis puts their own spin on events and circumstances in his life.It goes back to what I said earlier about taking their comments with a grain of salt.The situation with Ginger is a perfect example of people remembering something the way they prefer rather than in a factual sense.I would add Westmoreland to the list of ones who may have clouded memories but I think she would have lots of company.
Jak

Thu Nov 16, 2006 11:27 pm

Memphis Flash wrote:Have I made any assumptions about you? I don't recall making any but correct me if I have.


You just assumed a few moments ago that my familiarity with this board and N880EP only extended to the date below my username. You were wrong.

Memphis Flash wrote:I am not worried about my credibility. Not at all. Sorry if I don't care to go into detail about someone who behaved as an absolute a sshole. Almost totally unjustified unless one can complain about unanswered PMs.


See? You throw a liquorice whip of an insinuation out into the open -- trashing someone on a public forum -- and don't elaborate.

Memphis Flash wrote:Any number of people here have witnessed, or been the brunt of, the behavior I am talking about


I have *never* seen or heard of anyone be insulted by N880EP. Whatever remarks he has made,.......... have *always* been PIN-SHARP accurate. Let me repeat: I have *never* seen N8 criticise someone or tar them with a brush that they didn't deserve. Yes, he is not a man to mince words, and he has a vast knowledge of Elvis (and other matters), and these are reasons that people clash and bad-mouth him later. I have seen it happen with my own eyes. It goes back to what you were saying before: human nature. Doesn't make those people "right" and N8 "wrong", however.

Memphis Flash wrote:I am sorry that you had to hear that there was no Santa Claus. It's wonderful that you didn't know it existed, because that says a lot about improved behavior. I always applaud that.


Santa Claus / "it" ?

You've lost me.

Memphis Flash wrote:Some things are best forgotten. If you are burning to know the details, PM me and I'll consider it. But life is too short to dwell in the past, unless it is Elvis we are discussing.


I already asked you to go that route. And now you're asking *me* to PM *you*? Sorry: why? Either explain yourself after the prompting I have already given,......... or do not. One may restore your credibility; the other will only continue to hamper it.

Memphis Flash wrote:Sorry if that isn't the answer you were looking for, but sometimes you just have to trust that someone knows what they are talking about. You are of course free to write them off as what, bitterly mistaken. That is your prerogative. Sometimes we just have to agree to disagree.


More vanilla-flavoured rhetoric.

I expected better.

sheila Ryan book

Thu Nov 16, 2006 11:56 pm

I'm no fan of Geller, but he has part in assembling the bigger picture.

One thing that creeps me out: in the same book I was drawing that last quotation from, he claims to have been the last person to touch Elvis before the casket was sealed. Ugh. Of *all* people.

(Thank goodness that Elvis' vital organs had already been removed for Larry's sake, or he might just have come back to life with sheer disgust and strangled the freaky imp).

- Sorry, I dont know how to put what someone else said in a box. But anyway, why did you write this? Was Larry Geller on Elvis black list at the time of Elvis death? I always get a weird feeling about Larry Geller.[/url][/list]