Chaos? - Well hardly!!!

[YDKM]

"At the end of the day, when I listen to this disc, I hear thousands of people having a good night out, a performer, whilst not at the top of his game, putting on a good show"
I agree and while i listened AGAIN i simply must be deaf as i couldn't hear people saying comments like 'terrible' after songs at all. Even if Elvis DID hang on the microphone post for support at the start of the show the AUDIENCE screams just show most people actually their simply LOVED the show!!

[Blue-Gypsy]

For example Charlie Hodge would suggest Elvis had Bone Cancer.... Kathy Westmoreland would suggest the same thing, both believe in the truth and both believe they are telling the truth, however Joe Esposito says B/S... Jerry Schilling says B/S...

I don't recall Charlie or Kathy citing "bone cancer" as a reason for the disaster at College Park in 1974.
Doc, I see you have a sense of humor today, good thing, as there should be a little comical relief now an again, anyway lets move on shall we.....

You are a nicer guy than me PEP. The board needs good guys like you to balance out the A holes like me....

[drjohncarpenter]

Or am I missing something here?

Unfortunately, the answer in this case is a resounding "yes."

[PEP]

Or am I missing something here?

Unfortunately, the answer in this case is a resounding "yes."

Here you go again with your humor Doc,

For this particular topic we end up agreeing to disagree....

If presented without edit's, in my view Audio evidence doesn't
exaggerate or lie, people can and do.....

Anyway we will leave it at that....
unless of course you have something
new to offer for this thread

PEP

[Robert]

Also, are you REALLY SURE that Tony B. was in College Park? What he was doing there??? Played piano??? I do not think so.

Tony played piano for Voice, so he was part of the opening act..

Cheers, RJ

[deadringer]

Robert: and are you 100% sure??? In book there is written something else.

[Smudge]

This topics gone on for quite a while now so I did a bit of diggin' and asked my uncles buisness partner (Sam) a few questions about these tours and Vegas from 72 to 77, as he worked a lot in the states and is a big Elvis fan. He tried to see Elvis on tour and in Vegas as much as possible and in total saw him 112 times. He told me of having coffees in Vegas with Joe Guercio and other orchestra and band members. By late 76 the rumours of drugs were rife in the media and he always raised this with most of the band. Most denied it and said he was ill but liked to keep working. Talk of Elvis falling out of the limo were rumours then but Sam got wind of this and asked about it. He was told at that time ,76, that it was definately NOT true. Sam knew they were talking BS for fear of losing their jobs, but one said "if he fell out of the limo, we would not have seen it anyway as his entrance and exits were very quick".
Sam still worked in the US till 1985 and saw loads of different acts and stars and was in Vegas in 1980 when remembered 3 members of Guercio's orchestra and by chance they remembered him. Apparently they had left his orchestra and were working in Vegas. Anyway they really let the cat out of the bag then and said most of the band were drunk most of the time and could hardly remember their room numbers let alone exact shows and days on tour. Most did'nt even know where they were when they were on tour with Elvis. One time Elvis said "It's great to be here in ....." and forgot where he was and JW repied the wrong city and Charlie gave Elvis the right city. So much for accurate stories.

Sam was also told that Guercio was'nt really 'in the know' about Elvis and made things up about him to get money from magazines for interviews, aledgedly.

When Charlie came to the UK in 83 he stayed at one of my friends homes for the weekend and even he got shows and dates wrong and did'nt like it when he was corrected, but then turned around and said non of us can remember dates or days and when or where something happened. And then said he "was asked about the Aloha from Hawaii show, by fans in 1974 and it was very vague then so now I have no chance!". Charlie also said "most of us had our problems and nearly all got drunk most nights".

Even now JW has admitted he 'could'nt remember certain dates or shows and not to Quote him, never could'.

So surely these comments of the people on the show cannot be taken as gospel and anyone who believes different is a nut!

[BigredG]

Smudge, you have made my day

Great post, thanks for taking the time to dig into the issues.

[Ciscoking]

So surely these comments of the people on the show cannot be taken as gospel and anyone who believes different is a nut!

Exactly....we should now believe the evidence we have..the audio..
People are exaggerating..memories fade..legends are built..


...and busted..like here..

I firstly was a defender of this myth..I had to burry my fight..and believe what my ears are hearing..an average show from these days..no more..no less..

[Guest]

Ciscoking wrote:"Exactly....we should now believe the evidence we have..the audio.. "

.....but surely not dismiss out of hand the evidence we DON'T have(e.g. a visual record) which could greatly affect the perception of this show by those present.

Futhermore, I don't expect I'm going to be alone in feeling that this third hand gossip is much of a counter argument here. Uncredited sources making general assertions along with loose accusations, hardly represent a compelling case for dismissing specific testimony from the band members involved

Another point to remember is that this was an opening show and therefore more likely to stick in the memory than simply another night on the tour.

As I've previously stated, I still feel that more hard evidence is required before we are able to categorically dismiss all reports about this show from those who were present at the time.

[BigredG]

.....but surely not dismiss out of hand the evidence we DON'T have(e.g. a visual record) which could greatly affect the perception of this show by those present.

Futhermore, I don't expect I'm going to be alone in feeling that this third hand gossip is much of a counter argument here. Uncredited sources making general assertions along with loose accusations, hardly represent a compelling case for dismissing specific testimony from the band members involved

Another point to remember is that this was an opening show and therefore more likely to stick in the memory than simply another night on the tour.

As I've previously stated, I still feel that more hard evidence is required before we are able to categorically dismiss all reports about this show from those who were present at the time.

Mike S, I don't think anyone is categorically dismissing all reports about this show. The sleeve notes of the very cd explain that it is evident that E was in some measure of trouble in this show, but what we have found (and I know you agree) is that in listening to the show he appears to be in no more trouble than any other date on this tour, and would certainly seem to be in a worse state the very next day.

The third hand gossip you mention is not a rebuttal really, you are right. But it speaks a lot of sense into the situation. The guys memories have been proven to be completely wrong about the length of the show and the intelligibity of Elvis speech/singing. I suspect that even DJC will agree with this, though he has neatly ducked the issue countless times so far. Add to this the frank and not at all startling admission that the guys could barely remember where they are on the day, and the testimony is very far from rock solid - do you agree?

The concept of dismissing evidence that we don't have is a bit of a nonsense really, but I know where your coming from. I agree, a good quality video would be indespensible to glean the full picture. Nobody would deny that because it would be foolish to do so!!

But to cling to the shaky and already half disproven testimony in the light of the clear audio evidence is indeed nuts, as Smudge so rightly pointed out.

[Guest]

According to testimony from band members and others close to him (e.g. his bodyguards) Elvis' appearance and performance gave cause for particular concern at this show.

Whilst it is true that there does appear to be some factual discrepancies (e.g. concerning the length of the show) it is still possible that THIS particular performance did shock those close to him and provide the basis of those very negative reports. We simply don't know, we weren't there.

Visual evidence is crucial here, also remembering that this is only an audience recording and that a soundboard recording of Elvis' vocal performance could appear much worse than we can determine from this source.

As I've mentioned before, I'm not saying anything DEFINITE other than that this audio record may only be part of the whole picture that evening.

[deadringer]

Well personally I think that for band members, who were there for embarrasing Vegas 02.09.75 closing show, it was no big shock to see Elvis in College Park 27.09.74. because he was not "out of it" like in Vegas.

::: Visual evidence is crucial here, also remembering that this is only an audience recording and that a soundboard recording of Elvis' vocal performance could appear much worse

- it is very clear audience recording and Elvis vocal is stronger than next day, just compare i.e. How Great Thou Art from both shows using headphones and you know what I mean. No clear audience recording will hide fact that (if) Elvis was vocally weak for certain show. Just play Atlanta 6.6.76 - Elvis was vocally weak and it is evident from audience tape too...

On the other side, SOUNDBOARD recording is NOT what audience hear in concert hall ... it is rather unbalanced, hollow mix... thus not true representation of an Elvis concert... audience recording, even lo-fi, is much closer to the "real sound"...

::: that this audio record may only be part of the whole picture that evening.

- I agree, every audio is only a part but very important part. From 27.09.74 photos is is rather clear that Elvis was unwell, his eyes puffy and he was bloated. But his show was not TERRIBLE. remember, it has been reported that it was definitely one of his 2-3 WORST show. So I expected an incoherent mess, much worse than next day second College Park show... and surprise, it did not happened.

[Hans]

It could be that this particular tour has stuck in the memory of the bandmembers for being the first abysmal tour. A lot of the given performances seemed to be poor and far below average and maybe the members reflect their memory on the tour as a whole.

Furthermore is the Joe Guercio comment quoted in the John Wilkinson interview as far as I read it.

Just some thoughts....

[Guest]

Deadringer wrote:
"Well personally I think that for band members, who were there for embarrasing Vegas 02.09.75 closing show, it was no big shock to see Elvis in College Park 27.09.74. because he was not "out of it" like in Vegas."

Evidently it was if their reports are to be believed.


"No clear audience recording will hide fact that Elvis was vocally weak for certain show."

It will inevitably mask the scale of his vocal ability. If you listen to both an audience and soundboard recording of his show the following night, you may see what I mean.


"SOUNDBOARD recording is NOT what audience hear in concert hall ..."

No, but a soundboard recording will give a much clearer picture of Elvis' vocals and provide us with further clues as to his condition that night.


"I expected an incoherent mess, much worse than next day second College Park show... and surprise, it did not happened."

No it was not an incoherent mess, but his appearance and performance could possibly have been perceived by those close to him as being worse than this audio record suggests.

[Robert]

Now we know things were not that bad in the College Park opening, how about some other October'74 gigs?

We've had discussions about the first Detroit show.. there are mixed reviews. Hard to judge.

The first show in St Paul was reportedly only 50 minutes, including intro's and "Killing me softly", by Voice.

2001 Theme / See See Rider / I Got A Woman / Amen / Love Me / Blue Suede Shoes / Big Boss Man / It's Midnight / Fever / If You love Me / Love me Tender / Hound Dog / Intros - Lawdy Miss Clawdy / All Shook Up / Teddy Bear - Don't Be Cruel / Killing Me Softly -(Voice) / Why me Lord? / The Hawaiian Wedding Song / The Wonder of You / Can't Help Falling In Love / Closing Vamp

The matinee in Indy was rather uninspired.. but not extremely poor as mentioned. I listened to it, I'll give it 6 out of 10.

The rest of the tour seems to be fine, some better than others..
I would welcome any other releases from this tour in the future..

Cheers, RJ

[deadringer]

::: Evidently it was if their reports are to be believed.

- yes the word IF must be remembered first. IF. I.e. what do you think about Tony Brown telling that Fort Worth 76 was one of very best Elvis shows? We both know that this is BS. What was so special about Fort Worth shows? NOTHING. Both shows were substandard for Elvis and about average for 76, nothing exceptional. Do you think that it was VISUAL part, which made this show so great for Tony ??? I do not think so, too. What I want to explain you is that I DO NOT TRUST Elvis band members if they are speaking about these details from 70s tours. These "insiders" were so often wrong - not because they are liars - but because they simply do not remember these old days in detail... and this is no wonder...

To me is simply more natural to accept that - lets say Wilkinson - was wrong, than to try to construct complicated theories that he was basically right due this or that reason - which I missed because I was not there...

::: will inevitably mask the scale of his vocal ability. If you listen to both an audience and soundboard recording of his show the following night, you may see what I mean.

- yes but this 28.09.74 audience recording is not too good. Pls... I had the SAME feeling after listening this AR as I had from the same show soundboard.

::: No it was not an incoherent mess, but his appearance and performance could possibly have been perceived by those close to him as being worse

- well as I wrote to me these memories are not really relevant if I have real thing - audio or video evidence and photos... these memories are part of the "picture" but AUDIO is always more relevant than any 30 years old memories... at least to me. The same goes for newspaper reviews, they are usually very innacurate and not concentrated to Elvis anyway... I think that majority of them is worthless for any serious research.

::: No, but a soundboard recording will give a much clearer picture of Elvis' vocals and provide us with further clues as to his condition that night.

- probably yes but this 27.09.74 sound is good enough to tell for sure that it was BETTER show than the next one. And it means that legends about 27.09.74 being Elvis worst show are BS.

In any case I will agrre that Sept.Oct. 74 tour was the WORST Elvis tour to date. None of these shows was comparable with March or June 74 shows.

[Larry Dickman]

As I have said, the available audio, photos, not to mention the thousands of cheering audience members belie the the vague (read, holes in there stories you could drive a truck through) recollections of two band members and one member of the support act...........

Quote's from John Wilkinson :
".....It started about 1974. I forget the exact date, but we were in College Park, Maryland. "

"It was so bad you could the words to the songs were barely intelligble." HUH?

"College Park let it be known they wouldn't have him back" Says who?

Quote from Joe Guercio:
"He could barely get through the introductions on stage.......He cut the show very short....." Wrong

Quote from Tony Brown:
"He walked onstage and held onto the mike for the first thirty minutes............." Wrong

Quote from Jerry Hopkins:
"So great was the change (in EP's appearance), some of the boys in the band say they had trouble recognising him" GIVE ME A BREAK......DIDN'T RECOGNISE ELVIS PRESLEY???


Anyone who thinks either a soundboard recording or footage from the night in question is going to prove the above quotes to be factual, has borrowed 'Doctor' John's sh*t stained glasses......

[Larry Dickman]

Quote from Jerry Hopkins, The Final Years:
"So great was the change (in EP's appearance), some of the boys in the band say they had trouble recognising him"



hmmm......Wayne Newton?

[Blue-Gypsy]

.........

[Deke Rivers II]

"At the end of the day, when I listen to this disc, I hear thousands of people having a good night out, a performer, whilst not at the top of his game, putting on a good show"
:

I have been following this thread from the beginning. I have not heard the show in question, so I will not comment on that aspect; however, I will comment that at the end of the day Elvis could have appeared in the worst shape possible going through the motions with slurred speech at death's door and "the fans" (if one could call them that) would cheer him on when they should have been saying "wake up man, our love for you is unconditional but you are not even a shadow of what you once were and you are killing yourself and it pains us. Straighten up and get back to singin your a#@ off for yourself and us", instead of amusing him with their delusions of how great he was when even Elvis himself knew that if he had farted they would have applauded. Nothing but the best should have ever been expected or accepted from Elvis. Mediocrity should have never been accepted then or now for anything more that what it was or is.

When I see a young nice looking female describe Elvis as 'so good looking' in June of 1977, I wonder what kind of drug she is on but I guess "love" is blind, but Elvis needed that unconditional "tough" love.

I have lots of mediocre shows in my collection and it saddens me to know that Elvis got away with it then and now. When Elvis did arise to the occaision and give a great performance it had to be for himself because "the fans" would have accepted much less. How often I wish and dream that Elvis had maintained the desire and drive to be "better far than you are" and continue reaching unreachable stars; but I realize that this is the impossible dream.--Deke Rivers

[Scott Haigh 781990EP]

Btw, in the book 'Elvis: The concert years', concert hall staff have told that Elvis himself said the matinee concert in Indy was the worst of his career, and certainly one of the the pictures i've seen and the newpaper review even admits so, in the nicest possible way. The person that wrote it was obviously a fan of Elvis

Also Sprach Zarathustra
See See Rider
I Got A Woman/Amen
Love Me
Blue Suede Shoes
It's Midnight
Big Boss Man
Fever
If You Love Me
Hound Dog
[band introductions]
Lawdy Miss Clawdy
All Shook Up
Teddy Bear/Don't Be Cruel
Heartbreak Hotel
Killing Me Softly [Voice]
Johnny B. Goode
Why Me Lord
Let Me Be There
Hawaiian Wedding Song
Love Me Tender
Polk Salada Annie
Can't Help Falling In Love

Indeed, the large majority of this concert looks liek it is just a concert for the fans of the 50s hits, and we all know how Elvis felt when he had to do these.

Plus, as is mentioned in my owned book, Elvis's use iwth uppers and downers at this time made him give bad shows when it came to matinees, for this is just when he started to wake up. Remembering Elvis slept in daytime, and stayed up at night

and heres that article i mentioned ...........-----------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
HO-HUM, Elvis Presley was in town Saturday. Remember him? The King of rock 'n' roll?

Tickets to his two sell-out concerts at the Expo Center were grabbed up way in advance, which is typical for an Elvis concert. His fans were excited as they descended on the building armed with cameras and homemade clothes with their idol's picture on them.

As everyone left the afternoon performance, there were a lot of subdued faces, which is NOT typical for an Elvis concert. Things like "rip-off" and "I don't believe it" were being muttered.

HARD AS IT may be to fathom, the King just didn't hack it. The flair with which he entertained us at the Coliseum two-and a half years ago was only just a memory. We even went too far as to wonder if this man on the stage was an imposter, and hope that the REAL Elvis was going to come bursting on stage, cape swirling, any minute.

Even staunch Elvis fans (and there are millions of them) were dissapointed. One who has been to several performances in the area over the last few years, commented that he "was either sick or had a hangover"

The only hangover we saw the one he had over his belt, which incidentally fell off at the start of the show, much to everyone's delight.

He opened his half of the show with "C.C. Rider," accompanied by the usual sea of flashbulbs and screams. When several fans on one side of the concert hall yelled that they couldn't see, Elvis made himself popular by asking his back-up singers to move their chairs.

Then he progressed to other familiar hits - "Blue Suede Shoes," "Fever," "Hound Dog," "All Shook Up," "Heartbreak Hotel,""Love Me Tender," "Hawaiian Wedding Song," "Poke Salad Annie" and his new song, "It's Midnight" and "I Miss You"

IT HAD the makings of a fine concert, but the only one who got their money's worth were the ones in the first few rows.

First of all, the acoustics (or lack of them) in the Expo Center are horrible. Echo chambers may be all right for records, but not for live concerts. It was fortunate that the amplifiers were suspended above the stage on a plataform - too many times fans pay top tickets prices and end up with a $10 view of a speaker - but even that didn't help.

Secondly, lack of enthusiasm of Elvis' part was obvious as he paced around the stage, mumbling into the microphone so no one outside of a five-foot radius could hear him.

He spent a lot of time conversing with his musicians and singers, which usually drowned him out when he DID sing. It seemed more like a dress rehearsal than a concert.

Between songs, Elvis doesn't keep the show moving with glib, witty conversation. All he has to do is look at the box-office receipts to know that fans will be satisfied with paying to see him wiggle his legs and throw sweaty scarves to excited females crowded around the stage. He never sings a song all the way through - just segments of each one.

Somehow, we expected more for our money.

IT'S RARE when warm-up acts out-perform the headliner, especially when it's Elvis Presley. But the Voices trio, Sweet Inspirations and comedian Jackie Kahane, with his Elvis jokes, put forth valiant performances. J.D. Sumner of the Stamps, with his deep deep voice, was another highlight.

Okay, so maybe Elvis wasn't feeling good. We hope that's the only reason for the bad show. It would disappoint a lot of fans if the King were to be dethroned.

[Blue-Gypsy]

......

[PEP]

I have been following this thread from the beginning. I have not heard the show in question, so I will not comment on that aspect; however, I will comment that at the end of the day Elvis could have appeared in the worst shape possible going through the motions with slurred speech at death's door and "the fans" (if one could call them that) would cheer him on when they should have been saying "wake up man, our love for you is unconditional but you are not even a shadow of what you once were and you are killing yourself and it pains us. Straighten up and get back to singin your a#@ off for yourself and us", instead of amusing him with their delusions of how great he was when even Elvis himself knew that if he had farted they would have applauded. Nothing but the best should have ever been expected or accepted from Elvis. Mediocrity should have never been accepted then or now for anything more that what it was or is.

When I see a young nice looking female describe Elvis as 'so good looking' in June of 1977, I wonder what kind of drug she is on but I guess "love" is blind, but Elvis needed that unconditional "tough" love.

I have lots of mediocre shows in my collection and it saddens me to know that Elvis got away with it then and now. When Elvis did arise to the occaision and give a great performance it had to be for himself because "the fans" would have accepted much less. How often I wish and dream that Elvis had maintained the desire and drive to be "better far than you are" and continue reaching unreachable stars; but I realize that this is the impossible dream.--Deke Rivers

I agree with a lot of what you said in your post
Deke Rivers II...

No doubt about it, Elvis wasn't pushing for the standards
he should have been at, there is no deny this.....

Still at the end of the day, it's sad too that the band
members in question were not a little more vocal to
what they were seeing either and express their feelings
to the right people then instead of just thinking about
their pay check at the end of the day,.....especially since
they appeared more vocal after the fact and would get
dates and times wrong.....

I know it's easy for anyone to say what I'm saying
outside looking in, but still it sucks no matter
what...

If they were that shock and that sad about the
whole thing...

It really was Too little too late after he's dead...

I mean by the time 76' was rolling around did
the shock an the sadness end for these guys?

It appears it got worse not better...


PEP

[Ciscoking]

About the incident of Elvis falling out of the limo that day:

This can, of course contribute to exaggerations.
You can fall out when you´re totally drunk and you can
fall out by just stumbling..
In our case such an incident can have dramatic effects.
What if he just stumbled...??
Knowing of course that he was overdosed these days..the fact he fell
out of his car leads immeditaly to the assumption he was totally stoned.
His slurring and usual behaviour on stage these days gives the rest.
I mean it`s just possible that this incident made the whole thing to what it is today...a pure exaggeration and within a few weeks legends are built..