Off Topic Messages

Re: More Lost Film Of JFK Motorcade

Tue Nov 05, 2013 9:07 am

ranskal wrote:
How can you make such an ignorant claim when you have no idea what I've seen or read?? I believe he acted alone.



Have you read this book yet ? This book pretty much sums it up nicely of what really happened.

Image

Re: More Lost Film Of JFK Motorcade

Tue Nov 05, 2013 9:35 am

I always thought LBJ had something to do with it. He always had that "look" about him. I guess it was his "lucky" day that he wasn't in the car with the president....Folks think the president is the most powerful man in the world...he is only a puppet. Of course everyone always point their fingers at the Masons for every tragic even that happens. :wink:

Re: More Lost Film Of JFK Motorcade

Tue Nov 05, 2013 10:02 am

mike edwards66 wrote:
rjm wrote:
50 years. The young man sacrificed would be 74 today. He also had young children at the time. Does anyone give a damn


Do you believe he was innocent of killing the police officer ?


Good question. I don't know that.

I do know Oswald did not have a handgun with him at work, and when he came downstairs and saw the commotion, went home to get one. That's why he ended up on that street. You have to wonder why Tippet was there: had there been sufficient time to ID Oswald, and send a single officer after him?

I would say, based on what I've read, that if he did it, he did it in self-defense. After all, Oswald would soon be shot in a garage that was left open enough for Ruby to get in and shoot him; clearly the Dallas Police were complicit in his death or it could not have happened. So, did they want to rub him out even earlier? I don't know, but it is odd that Tippet was there, and some sort of scuffle ensued - with someone, enough so that Tippet ended up dead. The odds are that it was indeed Oswald, but again, nothing went to court. If it had, perhaps he might have explained what happened, if he was involved.

The main point is that if he didn't feel he had become a "patsy" for the assassination of the President of the United States, he never would have gone home to get a gun. I believe he felt himself in great danger. As to why he entered a theater without paying for a ticket (thereby ensuring the cops would come), I have absolutely no idea. It seems that someone he trusted may have told him to go to this theater, and it didn't work out as he expected. He fought them.

You see, Oswald was no stranger to those actually involved in the assassination. Not at all. (The handbills he gave out supposedly for the "Fair Play for Cuba Committee" had the address of a right-wing alphabet agency hangout on the back of them. In other words, they sent him out to "pretend to be a communist," start a scuffle, and mark himself. They totally set him up. This happened in Garrison's jurisdiction, which is why he got involved.) If that's not proof that he was not who they said he was, I don't know what else anyone needs. Gosh, there's more, and it's all pretty much written in stone.) He may not have done it (good evidence shows he was eating chicken and a coke in the lunchroom at 12:30, including a police officer who saw him shortly thereafter, and women who didn't see him on the stairs, where he had to be in this scenario), but he was "among the crowd" they were in with. He could not have been a "patsy" unless he knew them, and knew them well. This also means he didn't just "maintain his innocence"; he said there was a conspiracy, and that he knew it. Not so surprising he was killed, forthwith.

And this is not to say that no one was in the sixth floor window. All but one witness had said they saw "a Mexican and a Negro." Two people, and in Texas, the witnesses might not know the difference between "a Mexican" person, and a person of Cuban origin. The one guy who claimed he saw Oswald, or someone like him, had an eye operation shortly after. Blind as a bat.

It's much better to look at what people said and did as close to the actual incident as possible. The early books are very helpful in this regard, as to "what" happened. As to the why, well, more recent books are helpful. I do not subscribe to the "high cabal" notion of "conspiracy." Conspiracies are loose affairs that gather momentum when like-minded individuals and groups find each other, and when these individuals and groups find a source of funding. Kennedy was hated unto death by several groups. And some already had strong connections with one another. (Another myth is that the CIA is a monolithic organization from top to bottom, so it had to be orders "from on high." That's not true; there was a lunatic fringe, used for black ops. Hunt was one of the lunatics. I do not believe the CIA director at that time knew anything. PLEASE read a VERY reasonable book called Sons and Brothers, if you read nothing else. It's not an assassination book at all, but it's just there, as it had to be to tell the story. The author was a Fellow with the Kennedy Library. For two bucks, it's on your Kindle, or Kindle app, NOW. http://www.amazon.com/Kennedy-Brothers-Rise-Bobby-ebook/dp/B0056GXHRG/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1383634024&sr=8-1&keywords=Sons+and+Brothers Practically free, and a MOST excellent book. Maybe the best. And I have read most of the key books, including the Posner and Bugliosi rags.[*])

So, the way I see it, from Oswald's perspective, is that he knew something would be up at 12:30. Adlai Stevenson had recently been "egged" in the area. Handbills appeared in the morning saying, of Kennedy, "Wanted For Treason," which was waved off by the Dallas police. Something was up - something was going to happen, and Oswald knew it. (Even JFK kind of expected something due to his recent peace positions . . . "we're in nut country, now," he said.) And Oswald probably expected something of this nature. So, he ate his chicken, and drank his coke in the windowless lunchroom, and saw the officer just a bit after the 12:30 shooting. A person with the building told the officer "he works here." So, the officer continued looking around. At that point, Oswald wanted to see what-all had happened. So, he went downstairs. And all he** had broken loose! It was at this point, if you believe him (and I believe him), that he figured HE was the "patsy" for what they had done. And what they had done was to KILL the president! So, he went home to get a handgun.

And, after he got it, was on his way, I guess, to this theater -- or at some point, before or after encountering Tippet (and who knows who else), was told to go to this theater. Whether he killed Tippet, or if there was someone else involved in the scuffle, I can't say. He might have shot Tippet.

rjm

[*]Posner: Aside from being a proven plagiarist, Posner's work has been revealed as the dung heap that it is. Even Bugliosi said it was filled with inaccuracies! He's a joke. He also wrote a book, very similar, about the King assassination. It's his mission, I guess. Anyway, read this: http://articles.baltimoresun.com/1993-09-22/features/1993265177_1_gerald-posner-oswald-posner-book

And these citations from his Wiki entry:
Review of Gerald Posner, Case Closed. David R. Wrone. Journal of Southern History 6 (February 1995), pp. 186–188. http://www.assassinationscience.com/wrone.html
Harold Weisberg, Case Open: The Omissions, Distortions and Falsifications of Case Closed, NY, Carroll and Graf, 1994.
Peter Dale Scott, "A Review of Gerald Posner, Case Closed: Lee Harvey Oswald and the Assassination of JFK, Deep Politics II: Essays on Oswald, Skokie, Illinois, Green Archives Publications, 1995.


As for Bugliosi, he's a prosecutor who is inordinately full of himself; I met him once, when he spoke at 'bama. "I am on Manson's Death List." His whole talk was about himself. And he signed autographs. For real! :roll:

Re: More Lost Film Of JFK Motorcade

Tue Nov 05, 2013 11:01 am

rjm,

You seem to be very well informed. I am also very interested about this, since a long time. Which book would you reccomend? Although english is not my native language, I do read english books. But please keep in mind when it's too much 'academical' english, it's hard for me to get it. Lets say the Guralnick books about EP are pretty good to read for me, so that you have an idea about my level of reading english.

Re: More Lost Film Of JFK Motorcade

Tue Nov 05, 2013 12:05 pm

ranskal wrote:
drjohncarpenter wrote:
ranskal wrote:I believe Oswald was the lone gunman.


That's a shame. The only way to make such an assessment is to be ignorant of the events before, during and after 11-22-1963. Rather than watch a bunch of TV documentaries whose sole purpose is to confuse or obscure the truth, you should invest your time in reading some of the more insightful, factual studies that have been published since the death of John Kennedy.


How can you make such an ignorant claim when you have no idea what I've seen or read??


It's easy to make the statement. My view is clearly based on what you have posted on this topic, and I am extremely well-read on the subject.

If you care enough, and are strong enough, to make the difficult journey from the dark to the light, let me know.

Re: More Lost Film Of JFK Motorcade

Tue Nov 05, 2013 12:09 pm

TCB-FAN wrote:Have you read this book yet ? This book pretty much sums it up nicely of what really happened.

Image


Sadly, that book is fantasy, and only serves to distract those interested ferreting out the truth of 11-22-1963.

Re: More Lost Film Of JFK Motorcade

Tue Nov 05, 2013 1:01 pm

DJC,

Which books would you reccomend?

Re: More Lost Film Of JFK Motorcade

Tue Nov 05, 2013 2:01 pm

Lexie1973 wrote:rjm,

You seem to be very well informed. I am also very interested about this, since a long time. Which book would you reccomend? Although english is not my native language, I do read english books. But please keep in mind when it's too much 'academical' english, it's hard for me to get it. Lets say the Guralnick books about EP are pretty good to read for me, so that you have an idea about my level of reading english.


Well, Sons and Brothers, as referenced above. His credentials are impeccable and it is not an assisanation book. But it's there -- very matter of fact. Great place to start. And a fine book about the two Kennedy brothers.

rjm

Sent From My Phabulous Galaxy Note II Phablet Using Tapatalk 4

Re: More Lost Film Of JFK Motorcade

Tue Nov 05, 2013 6:08 pm

TCB-FAN wrote:This is a rarely seen film taken from the Secret Service car that was directly behind JFK's and Jackie's car in the motorcade on 22 November 1963. Filming stopped just before the motorcade entered Dealey Plaza. This video may shed light on a theory hitting the headlines due to the recent announcement of the Reelz Channel's documentary 'JFK: The Smoking Gun', which will air 3 November 2013. Based on Bonar Menninger's and Howard Donahue's book 'Mortal Error: The Shot That Killed JFK', the documentary claims that a secret service agent, George Hickey, sitting in the car following JFK's accidentally fatally shot JFK.


I caught the documentary the other night, as well. In fact, I recorded it and watched it a second time. I will say, they certainly laid out a very compelling argument in the story they presented.

Like many others on this forum, I have read and watched about as much material as humanly possible to form an opinion--theories presenting all sides of the debate--and for the longest time, I believed in the lone gunman theory. I still lean that way, but my mind is open to any/all possibilities.

Re: More Lost Film Of JFK Motorcade

Wed Nov 06, 2013 2:53 am

The famous Zapruder film 100 frames per second (super slow-mo) I only wish Mr. Zapruder had included the second car (panned the camera more to the left) during the filming to see exactly how George Hickey had pointed the rifle , while mis-firing at the President at the very millisecond the President received the fatal shot. This would've solved a lot of things.


phpBB [video]

Re: More Lost Film Of JFK Motorcade

Wed Nov 06, 2013 3:20 am

KHoots wrote:Like many others on this forum, I have read and watched about as much material as humanly possible to form an opinion ...


In previous discussions on this topic, when pressed for details, you revealed that this is patently untrue.

Re: More Lost Film Of JFK Motorcade

Wed Nov 06, 2013 3:48 am

drjohncarpenter wrote:
ranskal wrote:
drjohncarpenter wrote:
ranskal wrote:I believe Oswald was the lone gunman.


That's a shame. The only way to make such an assessment is to be ignorant of the events before, during and after 11-22-1963. Rather than watch a bunch of TV documentaries whose sole purpose is to confuse or obscure the truth, you should invest your time in reading some of the more insightful, factual studies that have been published since the death of John Kennedy.


How can you make such an ignorant claim when you have no idea what I've seen or read??


It's easy to make the statement. My view is clearly based on what you have posted on this topic, and I am extremely well-read on the subject.

If you care enough, and are strong enough, to make the difficult journey from the dark to the light, let me know.


Obviously you didn't read my post with care, I suggest you do. I asked what more insightful, factual studies do you recommend.

I am open to others opinions and learning more about subjects that interest me, but please don't pretend that I am ignorant on a subject that I am clearly interested in just because your opinion is different than mine. I purposely made a trip to Dallas specifically to go to Dealy Plaza and to visit the Sixth Floor Museum.

Re: More Lost Film Of JFK Motorcade

Wed Nov 06, 2013 3:55 am

I probably did, Doc, but what's the point? It is unnecessary to lay out the materials I've studied to come to my conclusion. No one needs to do that. Everyone believes what they believe, and that's good enough for me. I respect that, without lobbing grenades at their opinions.

I also said my mind is open to any/all possibilities. That's why I continue to pay attention, and research further. I am not one to come to a conclusion and stick with it out of stubbornness. If I'm proven wrong, I have no problem saying so. In this case, as I said, I lean towards the lone gunman theory, but maybe I'm wrong.

Nobody knows for certain. If I did, I would be a "mastermind," to quote that rock 'n roll fella.

Re: More Lost Film Of JFK Motorcade

Wed Nov 06, 2013 4:35 am

TCB-FAN wrote:The famous Zapruder film 100 frames per second (super slow-mo) I only wish Mr. Zapruder had included the second car (panned the camera more to the left) during the filming to see exactly how George Hickey had pointed the rifle , while mis-firing at the President at the very millisecond the President received the fatal shot. This would've solved a lot of things.


phpBB [video]



I will say this just once: THERE IS NO RIFLE POINTED BY AGENT GEORGE HICKEY.

Please let go of that ridiculous and confusing notion.

---

As for the YouTube video you posted of the Zapruder footage, slowed, stabilized and using full frame, although the original film was compromised, it still shows quite a bit, if one knows what to look for.

---

For those who want to see a compelling JFK documentary which first aired on the History Channel in 2009 (I bought the 2010 DVD), someone has posted the entire thing on YouTube. It also reveals quite a bit, if one knows what to look for:


phpBB [video]

JFK: Three Shots That Changed America" (History Channel, Sunday, October 11, 2009)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JFK:_3_Shots_That_Changed_America



091011_JFK Three Shots DVD.JPG



DVD: 'JFK: 3 Shots That Changed America'
Mick LaSalle, San Francisco Chronicle
Sunday, January 17, 2010

Highest Rating.jpg

OK, say you're Lee Harvey Oswald, and reporters ask you if you killed the president. If you're innocent, you say, "What are you, nuts? Killed the president? That's crazy." And if you're guilty, you say, "What are you, nuts? Killed the president? That's crazy." Instead Oswald goes into an explanation of how he hasn't quite been charged with the crime yet, and then, some time later, says, "I'm a patsy." I'm a patsy? Instead of saying, "These police are accusing me unfairly," he says that people have set him up - with just the faintest suggestion that he might know who did. What a weird thing for an innocent man to say. What a weird thing for a guilty man who wants to appear innocent to say. Interesting.

Anyway, this documentary brings together raw footage, some of it never shown before, from the morning of the assassination through the murder of Oswald two days later. It is riveting. One interesting thing, of many, is the number of times Oswald spoke to reporters in those two days. Whenever he saw a reporter, he seemed to go out of his way to say something. Also interesting is watching Kennedy speaking that morning in Fort Worth. The man was such a charming speaker and had such a way with a wisecrack that it's possible to sit there laughing with him, even knowing what's about to happen an hour later.

JFK: 3 SHOTS THAT CHANGED AMERICA
2010
NOT RATED
A&E HOME VIDEO
$19.95

http://www.sfgate.com/movies/article/DVD-JFK-3-Shots-That-Changed-America-3275498.php
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

Re: More Lost Film Of JFK Motorcade

Wed Nov 06, 2013 4:41 am

Lexie1973 wrote:rjm,

You seem to be very well informed. I am also very interested about this, since a long time. Which book would you recommend? Although English is not my native language, I do read English books. But please keep in mind when it's too much 'academical' English, it's hard for me to get it. Lets say the Guralnick books about EP are pretty good to read for me, so that you have an idea about my level of reading English.


Lexie1973 wrote:DJC,

Which books would you recommend?


I suggest anyone who cares, truly cares, find these books and read them, cover to cover.

Rush To Judgment - Mark Lane (Holt, Rinehart & Winston, 1966)
JFK and Vietnam - John M. Newman (Warner Books, 1992)
Deep Politics and the Death of JFK - Peter Dale Scott (University of California Press, 1993)
Bloody Treason - Noel Twyman (Laurel Publishing, 1997)
Murder In Dealy Plaza - James H. Fetzer, Ph.D. (Catfeet Press, 2000)

A final thought, and something I referenced earlier in this topic:

One central fact is constantly overlooked in any news report on Kennedy's assassination or its aftermath -- any question of conspiracy was settled as an official truth by the House Select Committee on Assassinations (HSCA) in 1979:

The scientific evidence available to the committee indicated that it is probable that more than one person was involved in the President's murder. That fact compels acceptance. And it demands a re-examination of all that was thought to be true in the past.

Further, the committee's investigation of Oswald and Ruby showed a variety of relationships that may have matured into an assassination conspiracy. Neither Oswald nor Ruby turned out to be "loners," as they had been painted in the 1964 investigation. Nevertheless, the committee frankly acknowledged that it was unable firmly to identify the other gunman or the nature and extent of the conspiracy.

- HSCA Report, p. 180

That the majority of Americans today are unaware that the Congress of the United States declared our president's murder a conspiracy more than 30 years ago is disturbing and depressing.

And it is telling that the major media never mentions this report. Ever.

Wondering about Dealey Plaza "bullets" and "angles" and "number of shooters" is all a parlor game, obscuring what people should ask, even today:

Why did JFK get killed? Who might gain from his death? What does it mean today?

Fifty years later, it still matters.

Re: More Lost Film Of JFK Motorcade

Wed Nov 06, 2013 5:01 am

Just noticed an AP article from two days ago, which shows how the powers that be still continue to suppress the evidence.

"They held stuff back from the Warren Commission, they held stuff back from us, they held stuff back from the ARRB," he said. "That's three agencies that they were supposed to be fully candid with. And now they're taking the position that some of these documents can't be released even today.

"Why are they continuing to fight tooth and nail to avoid doing something they'd promised to do?"


If "the cased is closed," as shill historian Gerald Posner claimed two decades ago, why the need for secrecy fifty years later? Common sense. Use it!


5 decades later, some JFK probe files still sealed
By DAVID PORTER, Associated Press
Sunday, November 3, 2013


631122_JFK motorcade on Main and Ervay.JPG


Five decades after President John F. Kennedy was fatally shot and long after official inquiries ended, thousands of pages of investigative documents remain withheld from public view. The contents of these files are partially known -- and intriguing -- and conspiracy buffs are not the only ones seeking to open them for a closer look.

Some serious researchers believe the off-limits files could shed valuable new light on nagging mysteries of the assassination -- including what U.S. intelligence agencies knew about accused assassin Lee Harvey Oswald before Nov. 22, 1963.

It turns out that several hundred of the still-classified pages concern a deceased CIA agent, George Joannides, whose activities just before the assassination and, fascinatingly, during a government investigation years later, have tantalized researchers for years.

"This is not about conspiracy, this is about transparency," said Jefferson Morley, a former Washington Post reporter and author embroiled in a decade-long lawsuit against the CIA, seeking release of the closed documents. "I think the CIA should obey the law. I don't think most people think that's a crazy idea."

Morley's effort has been joined by others, including G. Robert Blakey, chief counsel for a House investigation into the JFK assassination in the 1970s. But so far, the Joannides files and thousands more pages primarily from the CIA remain off-limits at a National Archives center in College Park, Md.

Others say the continued sealing of 50-year-old documents raises needless questions in the public's mind and encourages conspiracy theories.

"There is no question that in various ways the CIA obfuscated, but it may be they were covering up operations that were justifiable, benign CIA operations that had absolutely nothing to do with the Kennedy assassination," said Anthony Summers, a British author who has written extensively about the JFK case.

"But after 50 years, there is no reason that I can think of why such operations should still be concealed," Summers said. "By withholding Joannides material, the agency continues to encourage the public to believe they're covering up something more sinister."

To understand the attention to the Joannides files, it's necessary to go back to 1963 and to review what's known about Oswald that put him on the CIA's radar.

It's also important to recall the differing conclusions of the two official investigations of the JFK killing -- one denying any conspiracy, the other suspecting one -- and how much or how little cooperation investigators received from CIA officials, including Joannides himself.

___

Oswald was a loner and an enigma even to those closest to him. He was "as difficult to understand as anyone I've studied in 35 years as a professional historian," said David Kaiser, whose 2008 book, "The Road To Dallas: The Assassination of John F. Kennedy," drew on tens of thousands of documents released in the 1990s.

Still, plenty was learned about Oswald after the shooting in Dallas. And, it's now clear, he was not unknown to the U.S. government before that.

Assassination investigators learned that Oswald had formed a group in New Orleans in the summer of 1963 that ostensibly supported Cuban leader Fidel Castro (Oswald was the only local member) and had been involved in a street altercation with anti-Castro demonstrators that was captured by a local television station.

Pamphlets Oswald had in his possession bore an address of a local anti-Castro operation connected to a former FBI agent with ties to organized crime, investigators discovered. That and other information has led researchers to believe that Oswald may have been part of a counterintelligence operation to discredit the group he had joined, the Fair Play For Cuba Committee, and that the street scene was a setup.

If so, who would have overseen such an operation?

Declassified documents show that Joannides, while based in Miami, was the CIA case officer for the anti-Castro Student Revolutionary Directorate (DRE), the group involved in the street fracas with Oswald.

What did this all add up to, if anything? Official investigations of the Kennedy assassination were not able to provide complete answers.

The Warren Commission, which concluded in 1964 that Oswald acted alone and was not part of a conspiracy, was never told about the CIA's possibly relevant anti-Castro activities, despite the fact that former CIA director Allen Dulles was a Warren Commission member.

Warren Commission staff counsel Burt Griffin, now a retired judge, calls it "an act of bad faith" by the CIA.

"I think they had an obligation to tell the chief justice (Earl Warren, commission chairman) about that, and then that decision would have been his and the commission's to make," Griffin said.

In separate interviews with The Associated Press, Griffin and fellow staff counsel David Slawson stood by the Warren Commission's conclusions.

Each pointed to a series of personal rejections behind Oswald's deadly action: Weeks after he made an unsuccessful attempt in Mexico City to get a visa to Cuba, his wife Marina rejected his attempts to reconcile their rocky marriage. It was during Oswald's visit, the night before the shooting, to the suburban Dallas home where his wife and two young daughters were staying that he packed up his disassembled Mannlicher-Carcano rifle to take to work the next day, the Warren Commission determined. That next morning, he removed his wedding ring, left his money with his wife, and departed to carry out the assassination.

"If she had taken him back," Slawson said, "he wouldn't have done it."

More complex and sinister theories about his motivation have been offered, of course, some flowing from the release in the 1990s of previously classified documents.

Kaiser, the historian, has postulated that Oswald, long seen as a devout leftist, was in fact being manipulated by right-wing and mob elements in his final months and that his visit to the Cuban and Soviet embassies in Mexico City in the fall of 1963 was part of an attempt to reach Cuba and kill Castro. Release of documents held by those governments could be revealing, Kaiser said.

By the time the House Select Committee on Assassinations convened in the mid-1970s to probe the Kennedy and Martin Luther King Jr. killings, other congressional investigations had exposed the CIA's activities in the early 1960s, including plots to assassinate Castro.

Those revelations would be overshadowed, however, by the House committee's JFK conclusion: That sound impulses recorded on the microphone of a Dallas police officer amounted to evidence of a shot from the infamous "grassy knoll" in Dealey Plaza, and thus of an additional gunman besides Oswald firing from a building window.

Kennedy, the committee's final report said in carefully tempered language, was "probably assassinated as the result of a conspiracy. The committee is unable to identify the other gunman or the extent of the conspiracy."

Subsequent analyses have cast doubt on the acoustic evidence, and the issue is considered unresolved.

That evidence was, of course, only part of the mountains of material considered by the committee, some of it from the CIA. And the CIA's liaison to the committee was none other than George Joannides, by then retired from the agency.

Blakey, the committee's chief counsel, recalled how the CIA brought in Joannides to act as a middleman to help fill requests for documents made by committee researchers. "He was put in a position to edit everything we were given before it was given to us," Blakey said.

But Blakey didn't learn about Joannides' past until Morley unearthed it in files declassified years later.

"If I'd known Joannides was the case officer for the DRE, he couldn't have been liaison; he would have been a witness," Blakey told The Associated Press.

Blakey added: "Do I think I was snookered, precisely like the Warren Commission was? Yes."

___

Which brings us back to the still-secret investigative files -- about 300 pages of which relate to Joannides.

First, some background:

Certain files held by the Warren Commission and House Select Committee were originally ordered sealed, for privacy, security and other considerations, well into the 21st century.

Decades passed before public pressure spurred by Oliver Stone's 1991 film "JFK" changed that.

Congress passed the President John F. Kennedy Assassination Records Collection Act of 1992, which established the Assassination Records Review Board, or ARRB, to carry out release of records. As a result, about five million pages of documents have been released and are available for review at the National Archives and Records Administration in Maryland.

But the review board agreed to withhold about 1,100 records -- each record comprises 1-20 pages -- that are considered to contain information about confidential sources or methods or have national security implications.

The JFK Act required all records to be released by 2017, but it left some wiggle room for agencies to petition to have records withheld if disclosure would compromise "military defense, intelligence operations, law enforcement, or conduct of foreign relations."

It is unknown whether the CIA will try to keep some documents classified past 2017; if it does, that may only increase Morley's resolve.

"You have to wonder what is so important in a 50-year-old document," he said. "I've come to the conclusion that they're guarding something big, and that has stiffened my determination."

A CIA spokesman, Ned Price, said the agency has complied with the law in releasing documents and the archives center "has all of the Agency's documents and files on the Kennedy assassination. Price didn't comment on the Joannides material specifically, citing Morley's lawsuit.

"The classified information contained in the files remains subject to the declassification provisions of the Act," he said.

Meanwhile, the documents sit in metal boxes on shelves in "a big room that's temperature- and humidity-controlled," said Martha Murphy, the Archives' chief of special access and Freedom of Information Act requests.

Among those are the Joannides files. An index created by the CIA and provided to The Associated Press by Morley describes many of the files as containing information on Joannides' travel, training and personnel evaluations as well as memos pertaining to the CIA's interactions with the House Select Committee on Assassinations.

Morley's interest dates to the 1990s when he covered the newly-formed ARRB. He filed suit for the Joannides documents in 2003 and has pried loose several hundred pages since then.

A federal judge dismissed the case in 2010. But in June, a federal appeals court overruled a lower court that had denied Morley's request to be reimbursed for attorneys' fees. "Records about individuals allegedly involved in President Kennedy's assassination serve a public benefit," the decision said.

Morley does not suggest the Joannides files point to agency involvement in the assassination itself, but more likely that their release would show the CIA trying to keep secret its own flawed performance before the assassination.

"The idea that Lee Harvey Oswald was some unknown quantity to CIA officers was false," Morley said. "There was this incredible high-level attention to Oswald on the eve of the assassination."

Assuming that Oswald fired the fatal shot, he said, "These top CIA case officers are guilty of negligence."

Blakey isn't optimistic about getting all of the documents from the intelligence agency.

"They held stuff back from the Warren Commission, they held stuff back from us, they held stuff back from the ARRB," he said. "That's three agencies that they were supposed to be fully candid with. And now they're taking the position that some of these documents can't be released even today.

"Why are they continuing to fight tooth and nail to avoid doing something they'd promised to do?"

http://www.sfgate.com/default/article/5-decades-later-some-JFK-probe-files-still-sealed-4951113.php

You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

Re: More Lost Film Of JFK Motorcade

Wed Nov 06, 2013 5:28 am

drjohncarpenter wrote:
TCB-FAN wrote:The famous Zapruder film 100 frames per second (super slow-mo) I only wish Mr. Zapruder had included the second car (panned the camera more to the left) during the filming to see exactly how George Hickey had pointed the rifle , while mis-firing at the President at the very millisecond the President received the fatal shot. This would've solved a lot of things.


phpBB [video]



I will say this just once: THERE IS NO RIFLE POINTED BY AGENT GEORGE HICKEY.

Please let go of that ridiculous and confusing notion.

---

As for the YouTube video you posted of the Zapruder footage, slowed, stabilized and using full frame, although the original film was compromised, it still shows quite a bit, if one knows what to look for.

---

For those who want to see a compelling JFK documentary which first aired on the History Channel in 2009 (I bought the 2010 DVD), someone has posted the entire thing on YouTube. It also reveals quite a bit, if one knows what to look for:


phpBB [video]

JFK: Three Shots That Changed America" (History Channel, Sunday, October 11, 2009)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JFK:_3_Shots_That_Changed_America



091011_JFK Three Shots DVD.JPG



DVD: 'JFK: 3 Shots That Changed America'
Mick LaSalle, San Francisco Chronicle
Sunday, January 17, 2010

Highest Rating.jpg

OK, say you're Lee Harvey Oswald, and reporters ask you if you killed the president. If you're innocent, you say, "What are you, nuts? Killed the president? That's crazy." And if you're guilty, you say, "What are you, nuts? Killed the president? That's crazy." Instead Oswald goes into an explanation of how he hasn't quite been charged with the crime yet, and then, some time later, says, "I'm a patsy." I'm a patsy? Instead of saying, "These police are accusing me unfairly," he says that people have set him up - with just the faintest suggestion that he might know who did. What a weird thing for an innocent man to say. What a weird thing for a guilty man who wants to appear innocent to say. Interesting.

Anyway, this documentary brings together raw footage, some of it never shown before, from the morning of the assassination through the murder of Oswald two days later. It is riveting. One interesting thing, of many, is the number of times Oswald spoke to reporters in those two days. Whenever he saw a reporter, he seemed to go out of his way to say something. Also interesting is watching Kennedy speaking that morning in Fort Worth. The man was such a charming speaker and had such a way with a wisecrack that it's possible to sit there laughing with him, even knowing what's about to happen an hour later.

JFK: 3 SHOTS THAT CHANGED AMERICA
2010
NOT RATED
A&E HOME VIDEO
$19.95

http://www.sfgate.com/movies/article/DVD-JFK-3-Shots-That-Changed-America-3275498.php


Thank you, John. If I don't post much tonight, it's because I am watching the whole film. This is one that "got away," and I'm anxious to see it. No time like the present.

rjm

Re: More Lost Film Of JFK Motorcade

Wed Nov 06, 2013 6:21 am

What about the video footage of secret service standing down just seconds before he was shot? Anyone have any information about that?

Re: More Lost Film Of JFK Motorcade

Wed Nov 06, 2013 6:38 am

drjohncarpenter wrote:
Lexie1973 wrote:rjm,

You seem to be very well informed. I am also very interested about this, since a long time. Which book would you recommend? Although English is not my native language, I do read English books. But please keep in mind when it's too much 'academical' English, it's hard for me to get it. Lets say the Guralnick books about EP are pretty good to read for me, so that you have an idea about my level of reading English.


Lexie1973 wrote:DJC,

Which books would you recommend?


I suggest anyone who cares, truly cares, find these books and read them, cover to cover.

Rush To Judgment - Mark Lane (Holt, Rinehart & Winston, 1966)
JFK and Vietnam - John M. Newman (Warner Books, 1992)
Deep Politics and the Death of JFK - Peter Dale Scott (University of California Press, 1993)
Bloody Treason - Noel Twyman (Laurel Publishing, 1997)
Murder In Dealy Plaza - James H. Fetzer, Ph.D. (Catfeet Press, 2000)

A final thought, and something I referenced earlier in this topic:

One central fact is constantly overlooked in any news report on Kennedy's assassination or its aftermath -- any question of conspiracy was settled as an official truth by the House Select Committee on Assassinations (HSCA) in 1979:

The scientific evidence available to the committee indicated that it is probable that more than one person was involved in the President's murder. That fact compels acceptance. And it demands a re-examination of all that was thought to be true in the past.

Further, the committee's investigation of Oswald and Ruby showed a variety of relationships that may have matured into an assassination conspiracy. Neither Oswald nor Ruby turned out to be "loners," as they had been painted in the 1964 investigation. Nevertheless, the committee frankly acknowledged that it was unable firmly to identify the other gunman or the nature and extent of the conspiracy.

- HSCA Report, p. 180

That the majority of Americans today are unaware that the Congress of the United States declared our president's murder a conspiracy more than 30 years ago is disturbing and depressing.

And it is telling that the major media never mentions this report. Ever.

Wondering about Dealey Plaza "bullets" and "angles" and "number of shooters" is all a parlor game, obscuring what people should ask, even today:

Why did JFK get killed? Who might gain from his death? What does it mean today?

Fifty years later, it still matters.


Thanks for the information, I will check out some of these books.

I would like to mention my original post was that I believed Lee Harvey Oswald was the lone shooter that killed President Kennedy. I looked up the House Select Committee on Assassinations (HSCA) in 1979 from the National Archives and here is an excerpt of their findings:

I. Findings of the Select Committee on Assassinations in the Assassination of President John F. Kennedy in Dallas, Tex., November 22, 1963
1.Lee Harvey Oswald fired three shots at President John F. Kennedy. The second and third shots he fired struck the President. The third shot he fired killed the President. a.President Kennedy was struck by two rifle shots fired from behind him.
b.The shots that struck President Kennedy from behind him were fired from the sixth floor window of the southeast corner of the Texas School Book Depository building.
c.Lee Harvey Oswald owned the rifle that was used to fire the shots from the sixth floor window of the southeast comer of the Texas School Book Depository building.
d.Lee Harvey Oswald, shortly before the assassination, had access to and was present on the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository building.
e.Lee Harvey Oswald's other actions tend to support the conclusion that he assassinated President Kennedy.


2.Scientific acoustical evidence establishes a high probability that two gunmen fired at President John F. Kennedy. Other scientific evidence does not preclude the possibility of two gunmen firing at the President. Scientific evidence negates some specific conspiracy allegations.

3.The committee believes, on the basis of the evidence available to it, that President John F. Kennedy was probably assassinated as a result of a conspiracy. The committee is unable to identify the other gunman or the extent of the conspiracy.a.The committee believes, on the basis of the evidence available to it, that the Soviet Government was not involved in the assassination of President Kennedy.
b.The committee believes, on the basis of the evidence available to it, that the Cuban Government was not involved in the assassination of President Kennedy.
c.The committee believes, on the basis of the evidence available to it, that anti-Castro Cuban groups, as groups, were not involved in the assassination of President Kennedy, but that the available evidence does not preclude the possibility that individual members may have been involved.
d.The committee believes, on the basis of the evidence available to it, that the national syndicate of organized crime, as a group, was not involved in the assassination of President Kennedy, but that the available evidence does not preclude the possibility that individual members may have been involved.
e.The Secret Service, Federal Bureau of Investigation and Central Intelligence Agency were not involved in the assassination of President Kennedy.

4.Agencies and departments of the U.S. Government performed with varying degrees of competency in the fulfillment of their duties. President John F. Kennedy did not receive adequate protection. A thorough and reliable investigation into the responsibility of Lee Harvey Oswald for the assassination of President John F. Kennedy was conducted. The investigation into the possibility of conspiracy in the assassination was inadequate. The conclusions of the investigations were arrived at in good faith, but presented in a fashion that was too definitive.a.The Secret Service was deficient in the performance of its duties.
b.The Secret Service possessed information that was not properly analyzed, investigated or used by the Secret Service in connection with the President's trip to Dallas; in addition, Secret Service agents in the motorcade were inadequately prepared to protect the President from a sniper.
c.The responsibility of the Secret Service to investigate the assassination was terminated when the Federal Bureau of Investigation assumed primary investigative responsibility.

5.The Department of Justice failed to exercise initiative in supervising and directing the investigation by the Federal Bureau of Investigation of the assassination.

6.The Federal Bureau of Investigation performed with varying degrees of competency in the fulfillment of its duties. a.The Federal Bureau of Investigation adequately investigated Lee Harvey Oswald prior to the assassination and properly evaluated the evidence it possessed to assess his potential to endanger the public safety in a national emergency.
b.The Federal Bureau of Investigation conducted a thorough and professional investigation into the responsibility of Lee Harvey Oswald for the assassination.
c.The Federal Bureau of Investigation failed to investigate adequately the possibility of a conspiracy to assassinate the President.
d.The Federal Bureau of Investigation was deficient in its sharing of information with other agencies and departments.

7.The Central Intelligence Agency was deficient in its collection and sharing of information both prior to and subsequent to the assassination.

8.The Warren Commission performed with varying degrees of competency in the fulfillment of its duties.a.The Warren Commission conducted a thorough and professional investigation into the responsibility of Lee Harvey Oswald for the assassination.
b.The Warren Commission failed to investigate adequately the possibility of a conspiracy to assassinate the President. This deficiency was attributable in part to the failure of the Commission to receive all the relevant information that was in the possession of other agencies and departments of the Government.
c.The Warren Commission arrived at its conclusions, based on the evidence available to it, in good faith.
d.The Warren Commission presented the conclusions in its report in a fashion that was too definitive
.


http://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/select-committee-report/summary.html

I do have a question regarding the second point about acoustical evidence establishing a high probability of a second gunman. Is this the sound that was picked up on an open mic from one of the motorcycle officers? If so, that evidence has been discredited which is the basis of that second point.

I have no idea what Oswald's motive was or whether there is a conspiracy with who he knew or worked with, my point was he was the lone shooter.

Re: More Lost Film Of JFK Motorcade

Wed Nov 06, 2013 6:44 am

rjm wrote:Thank you, John. If I don't post much tonight, it's because I am watching the whole film. This is one that "got away," and I'm anxious to see it. No time like the present.


I've seen them all, and this one is right on the top. It makes no judgement, just shows what the world heard and saw in the first 48 hours. A keen mind, coupled with 50 years of hindsight, will glean much from this documentary. The DVD review is what compelled me to purchase the program. I have no regrets.

Re: More Lost Film Of JFK Motorcade

Wed Nov 06, 2013 6:52 am

ranskal wrote:
drjohncarpenter wrote:
Lexie1973 wrote:rjm,

You seem to be very well informed. I am also very interested about this, since a long time. Which book would you recommend? Although English is not my native language, I do read English books. But please keep in mind when it's too much 'academical' English, it's hard for me to get it. Lets say the Guralnick books about EP are pretty good to read for me, so that you have an idea about my level of reading English.


Lexie1973 wrote:DJC,

Which books would you recommend?


I suggest anyone who cares, truly cares, find these books and read them, cover to cover.

Rush To Judgment - Mark Lane (Holt, Rinehart & Winston, 1966)
JFK and Vietnam - John M. Newman (Warner Books, 1992)
Deep Politics and the Death of JFK - Peter Dale Scott (University of California Press, 1993)
Bloody Treason - Noel Twyman (Laurel Publishing, 1997)
Murder In Dealy Plaza - James H. Fetzer, Ph.D. (Catfeet Press, 2000)

A final thought, and something I referenced earlier in this topic:

One central fact is constantly overlooked in any news report on Kennedy's assassination or its aftermath -- any question of conspiracy was settled as an official truth by the House Select Committee on Assassinations (HSCA) in 1979:

The scientific evidence available to the committee indicated that it is probable that more than one person was involved in the President's murder. That fact compels acceptance. And it demands a re-examination of all that was thought to be true in the past.

Further, the committee's investigation of Oswald and Ruby showed a variety of relationships that may have matured into an assassination conspiracy. Neither Oswald nor Ruby turned out to be "loners," as they had been painted in the 1964 investigation. Nevertheless, the committee frankly acknowledged that it was unable firmly to identify the other gunman or the nature and extent of the conspiracy.

- HSCA Report, p. 180

That the majority of Americans today are unaware that the Congress of the United States declared our president's murder a conspiracy more than 30 years ago is disturbing and depressing.

And it is telling that the major media never mentions this report. Ever.

Wondering about Dealey Plaza "bullets" and "angles" and "number of shooters" is all a parlor game, obscuring what people should ask, even today:

Why did JFK get killed? Who might gain from his death? What does it mean today?

Fifty years later, it still matters.


Thanks for the information, I will check out some of these books.

I would like to mention my original post ...


Not sure why you cut and pasted the HSCA information, when the significant portion was already posted by me.

What you miss is that the finding of conspiracy needed to be investigated, that was one of the recommendations, and 34 years later nothing has happened. This is the death of the President of the United States, not an average citizen. The finding came less than 16 years after he was killed. Yet, nothing.

The obvious reason for burying the report is that further work would uncover all the lies of the Warren Commission, and the dark truth at the heart of the murder of John Kennedy would be exposed. This is just one reason why you never hear about the conspiracy finding in any present-day media reports.

Hope you find some of the books on that list.

Re: More Lost Film Of JFK Motorcade

Wed Nov 06, 2013 7:49 am

drjohncarpenter wrote:
rjm wrote:Thank you, John. If I don't post much tonight, it's because I am watching the whole film. This is one that "got away," and I'm anxious to see it. No time like the present.


I've seen them all, and this one is right on the top. It makes no judgement, just shows what the world heard and saw in the first 48 hours. A keen mind, coupled with 50 years of hindsight, will glean much from this documentary. The DVD review is what compelled me to purchase the program. I have no regrets.


This cinéma vérité compilation of contemporaneous footage can only be described as Kafkaesque. Certainly, from Oswald's perspective, but also from the nation's.

Some of the chance comments by the reporters were stunning, especially this notion that Oswald was protected by "an armed camp." Clearly, that was not the case. Ruby was able to freely shoot Oswald at point-blank range, and nothing and no one was there to stop him. Everywhere Oswald went, a huge and unwieldy crowd was freely allowed to follow, and judging by how it ended, no one was screened for firearms.

And, although they were aware that Oswald was "interrogated" by the FBI a few weeks before the assassination, no one bothered to ask why. Simply his association with this "Fair Play For Cuba Committee"? That's quite ridiculous when you consider how many other people they would have had to "interrogate" for associations with such groups. We now know what Oswald's connections were, but that's beside the point here; what matters is that the media reported this, and then let it rest, even after Oswald was murdered.

The media very much wanted to wear blinders then, and they still haven't taken them off. Most of the American people have felt differently in the ensuing years, but these events scarred the country forever. And the continuous and ongoing attempts to confuse the obvious are working. While still, today, most Americans believe a conspiracy took place, the numbers are dropping, according to a recent Gallup poll. (One must take into consideration that many who were alive in the 1960s and 1970s are now dead. And many people today were not born at the time, or were below the age of reason. While the poll says the numbers are pretty much the same for both groups in the category of "belief in more than one," it is clear that the "unsure" category is growing. And it does not say whether those people are younger, or older.) http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/11/03/jfk-assassination-conspiracy_n_4208374.html

It was certainly a series of terroristic acts, because it left us terrorized. Still. Perhaps, in these uncertain and often frightening times, a time after the shooting of congressperson Gabrielle Giffords among many other menacing public acts of violence, we are even more terrorized than we were ten years ago.

Yet, as much as we seem inured to violence today, these 50-year-old images of a multi-layered nightmare are still shattering. That is because we are not watching the "senseless" violence to which we have become accustomed, but something else entirely. The documentary gives the sensation of being trapped.

rjm

Re: More Lost Film Of JFK Motorcade

Wed Nov 06, 2013 6:06 pm

TCB-FAN wrote:
ranskal wrote:
How can you make such an ignorant claim when you have no idea what I've seen or read?? I believe he acted alone.



Have you read this book yet ? This book pretty much sums it up nicely of what really happened.

Image

Yes i have and i have it in my collection

Re: More Lost Film Of JFK Motorcade

Wed Nov 06, 2013 6:22 pm

Lexie1973 wrote:DJC,

Which books would you reccomend?

House Select Committee on Assassinations Report

Six Seconds In Dallas by Josiah Thompson

Crossfire by Jim Mars

Fatal Hour by G Robert Blakey served as chief counsel and staff director to the House Select Committee on Assassinations from 1977 to 1979.

Books by Harold Weiseberg

The Killing Of A President and High Treason by Robert Groden

Books by Edward Jay Epstein

Books By Mark Lane

Best Evidence by David S. Lifton

This will get you started

Re: More Lost Film Of JFK Motorcade

Wed Nov 06, 2013 6:46 pm

Great! A lot to choose from! Thanks Mark!