Off Topic Messages

Re: How will it affect YOU? U.S. Govt. Shuttered!

Tue Oct 08, 2013 1:55 pm

elviscollector101 wrote:
Lexie1973 wrote:
elviscollector101 wrote:The sad part is that with all this hoopla , the average american can do nothing to help the situation . i DO NOT agree with obamacare , let's look at this from a common sense point of view . most people , like myself would love to have health insurance . i work for a small business and we cannot afford it . but , the reason is that i do not have as i said i cannot afford it , i do not know were Obama thinks that people who cannot afford it will be finding extra money to pay for it . most average american workers again like myself who work for small business are just making ends meet and then we are being forced to take this health care policy and with no extra money somehow come up with it to pay for it . that is Communism either way you look at , you can call it what you want but at the end it is Communism . i read that the state of Tennessee tried something similar to this and it almost bankrupted them . i cannot imagine the impact it will have on the USA when it goes into effect . there will be millions of people who will not have the extra funds for this then what do they do , also just like car insurance when it becomes the law you have to have this health insurance , health care prices with double because you are supposed to have insurance and we can charge what we want and you will pay it . sad , very sad day for our country . i can imagine that all the great hero's and honor military men who fought in wars for this country are turning over in their graves as they fought for our rights and for us to be free . again very sad .


Communism??? Really??? You gotta be kidding me!


Yes , really . when you are forced to partake in something that you do not want to do , that is what it is called . this may be a huge shock to you wild and crazy guy's across the big ocean but not everyone in the usa makes $ 65,000 a year , or even close to that . the poor people , or i guess what used to be called blue collar , will feel the worst of this . people who are just making end's meet and then have to worry about this expense . again most people would love to have health insurance , not having to make do and suffer out the pain . but when you cannot afford to go or afford insurance that is what you have to do . but i guess they assume just because it will become mandatory that you take obamacare that the money to pay for it will magically appear . alot of people are struggling and the horrible economy , worst in history , is not getting any better . they say that unemployment went a few point's , no just the ones that ran out of benefits and can longer receive it make the number smaller . also , small town's will get hit hard as if not already , small business's don't stand a chance and will not be able to keep open and what has managed to stay open will close . so , yea i am not any change for the better . when you can post a value to the point please post as i would love to read it .


It has already been repeated many times here before that those on the lowest income will be paying less for their health per year than they do for their car insurance. The fact remains that, without the $300 the lowest income families will pay, they could go bankrupt, shorten their lifespan or die without health insurance. It's as simple as Obama trying to prevent that.

Re: How will it affect YOU? U.S. Govt. Shuttered!

Tue Oct 08, 2013 5:01 pm

2kd wrote:RJM made a great point, however, I do not agree that O'care is the best answer. I do sympathize with her. Health care and health insurance reform were needed. Obamacare, at the very most should have been an option not a law. As a "law" it gives the perception of some wrong doing and "forces" citizens to do something that not all of us wish to do. It has actually [reformed] health care in some pretty [negative] ways. The whole process began as a big "secret" that Ms. Pelosi thought we didn't need to know about until they forced it upon us. I too have a health issue that demands constant vigilance. Just a couple months ago my doc discovered a tumor and suspected that cancer may have returned. It didn't, but in order to get the proper tests, I had to see another doc, a specialist. When I asked why, since the first time I had cancer my GP was in charge of the whole process, I was told by my doc, her nurse and then later, by the specialist, that because of the new changes to ACA, I had to wait over a month to get the test. My insurance co. sent a letter saying that I was denied the test initially, due to new ACA rules! How is this better?
People like Obama, Pelosi and Reid are ‘pseudo idealists’, those drawn to causes not to genuinely do good, but so they can feel good about themselves. They delude themselves that they hold the ‘moral high ground’ when the opposite is true.” The psychology of extreme liberalism is tangled – it presents a compassionate, selfless front, but is actually completely selfish. It is critical to understand this in order to withstand its advance. However even armed with this understanding, attempts to withstand it will be swamped if the levels of those needing the relief of pseudo idealism just keep rising. Obamacare would have been a fine idea if "we the people" had been given the option of "opting out". But instead we've had a law imposed upon us. Not for protection from some crime or wrong doing, (although some supporters perceive it as such) but for the sole purpose of controlling us and creating a level playing field. We are no longer a free nation, a free people. We've just been bought into slavery by a president and his cronies.


Do you feel the same way about being forced to pay your taxes so your country can run efficiently? If so, why is that not viewed as control by the government and the USA no longer being a free country? The simple answer is you've always done it so you don't question it.

Re: How will it affect YOU? U.S. Govt. Shuttered!

Tue Oct 08, 2013 8:04 pm

poormadpeter wrote:
2kd wrote:RJM made a great point, however, I do not agree that O'care is the best answer. I do sympathize with her. Health care and health insurance reform were needed. Obamacare, at the very most should have been an option not a law. As a "law" it gives the perception of some wrong doing and "forces" citizens to do something that not all of us wish to do. It has actually [reformed] health care in some pretty [negative] ways. The whole process began as a big "secret" that Ms. Pelosi thought we didn't need to know about until they forced it upon us. I too have a health issue that demands constant vigilance. Just a couple months ago my doc discovered a tumor and suspected that cancer may have returned. It didn't, but in order to get the proper tests, I had to see another doc, a specialist. When I asked why, since the first time I had cancer my GP was in charge of the whole process, I was told by my doc, her nurse and then later, by the specialist, that because of the new changes to ACA, I had to wait over a month to get the test. My insurance co. sent a letter saying that I was denied the test initially, due to new ACA rules! How is this better?
People like Obama, Pelosi and Reid are ‘pseudo idealists’, those drawn to causes not to genuinely do good, but so they can feel good about themselves. They delude themselves that they hold the ‘moral high ground’ when the opposite is true.” The psychology of extreme liberalism is tangled – it presents a compassionate, selfless front, but is actually completely selfish. It is critical to understand this in order to withstand its advance. However even armed with this understanding, attempts to withstand it will be swamped if the levels of those needing the relief of pseudo idealism just keep rising. Obamacare would have been a fine idea if "we the people" had been given the option of "opting out". But instead we've had a law imposed upon us. Not for protection from some crime or wrong doing, (although some supporters perceive it as such) but for the sole purpose of controlling us and creating a level playing field. We are no longer a free nation, a free people. We've just been bought into slavery by a president and his cronies.


Do you feel the same way about being forced to pay your taxes so your country can run efficiently? If so, why is that not viewed as control by the government and the USA no longer being a free country? The simple answer is you've always done it so you don't question it.


Its pointless trying to explain it to him, if he thinks that Socialism is Communism then he is just beyond arguing

My wife, who is American, thought very similar before she came to the UK, now she knows that the system here makes more sense.

I achieve more in my life knowing that there is a system in place where if I fall ill then I know I will never have to worry and that I will receive a decent standard of care. And I feel good that if I am making enough money I am contributing to the health of another person

Re: How will it affect YOU? U.S. Govt. Shuttered!

Tue Oct 08, 2013 8:24 pm

poormadpeter wrote:
2kd wrote:RJM made a great point, however, I do not agree that O'care is the best answer. I do sympathize with her. Health care and health insurance reform were needed. Obamacare, at the very most should have been an option not a law. As a "law" it gives the perception of some wrong doing and "forces" citizens to do something that not all of us wish to do. It has actually [reformed] health care in some pretty [negative] ways. The whole process began as a big "secret" that Ms. Pelosi thought we didn't need to know about until they forced it upon us. I too have a health issue that demands constant vigilance. Just a couple months ago my doc discovered a tumor and suspected that cancer may have returned. It didn't, but in order to get the proper tests, I had to see another doc, a specialist. When I asked why, since the first time I had cancer my GP was in charge of the whole process, I was told by my doc, her nurse and then later, by the specialist, that because of the new changes to ACA, I had to wait over a month to get the test. My insurance co. sent a letter saying that I was denied the test initially, due to new ACA rules! How is this better?
People like Obama, Pelosi and Reid are ‘pseudo idealists’, those drawn to causes not to genuinely do good, but so they can feel good about themselves. They delude themselves that they hold the ‘moral high ground’ when the opposite is true.” The psychology of extreme liberalism is tangled – it presents a compassionate, selfless front, but is actually completely selfish. It is critical to understand this in order to withstand its advance. However even armed with this understanding, attempts to withstand it will be swamped if the levels of those needing the relief of pseudo idealism just keep rising. Obamacare would have been a fine idea if "we the people" had been given the option of "opting out". But instead we've had a law imposed upon us. Not for protection from some crime or wrong doing, (although some supporters perceive it as such) but for the sole purpose of controlling us and creating a level playing field. We are no longer a free nation, a free people. We've just been bought into slavery by a president and his cronies.


Do you feel the same way about being forced to pay your taxes so your country can run efficiently? If so, why is that not viewed as control by the government and the USA no longer being a free country? The simple answer is you've always done it so you don't question it.


No, the simple answer is that the Constitution was amended by the American people in 1913 to permit the federal government to levy an income tax. Until then, the Feds were limited to taxes and levies authorized by the Article I of the Constitution but not an income tax.

Even liberals who support the healthcare act cannot name a federal law which forces an individual to buy a product. States can, and have, compelled people to purchase things like auto insurance to drive or a permit to build a home but not the federal government because police power is reserved to the States via the 10th Amendment. In such cases, if you do not like the state law, you can leave the state and avoid the purchase - this is a bedrock principle of our federalist system.

The whole point of the federalist system is that government power is diffused among branches at the federal and state level in order to safe guard man's freedoms and rights which come from God, not a government.

Re: How will it affect YOU? U.S. Govt. Shuttered!

Tue Oct 08, 2013 8:53 pm

What I cannot comprehend is that a whole bunch of civilized western maybe even USA orientated countries have had this affordable health care system for decades, but still there are US citizens who believe that it is a communist/socialist law, it denies 'freedom' and it will be the end of the 'home of the braves'. I am almost inclined to say that it is an arrogant way of thinking that England, france, Netherlands, Germany, Sweden, Denmark etc etc have it all wrong!!!

Re: How will it affect YOU? U.S. Govt. Shuttered!

Tue Oct 08, 2013 10:33 pm

Mike C wrote:
poormadpeter wrote:
2kd wrote:RJM made a great point, however, I do not agree that O'care is the best answer. I do sympathize with her. Health care and health insurance reform were needed. Obamacare, at the very most should have been an option not a law. As a "law" it gives the perception of some wrong doing and "forces" citizens to do something that not all of us wish to do. It has actually [reformed] health care in some pretty [negative] ways. The whole process began as a big "secret" that Ms. Pelosi thought we didn't need to know about until they forced it upon us. I too have a health issue that demands constant vigilance. Just a couple months ago my doc discovered a tumor and suspected that cancer may have returned. It didn't, but in order to get the proper tests, I had to see another doc, a specialist. When I asked why, since the first time I had cancer my GP was in charge of the whole process, I was told by my doc, her nurse and then later, by the specialist, that because of the new changes to ACA, I had to wait over a month to get the test. My insurance co. sent a letter saying that I was denied the test initially, due to new ACA rules! How is this better?
People like Obama, Pelosi and Reid are ‘pseudo idealists’, those drawn to causes not to genuinely do good, but so they can feel good about themselves. They delude themselves that they hold the ‘moral high ground’ when the opposite is true.” The psychology of extreme liberalism is tangled – it presents a compassionate, selfless front, but is actually completely selfish. It is critical to understand this in order to withstand its advance. However even armed with this understanding, attempts to withstand it will be swamped if the levels of those needing the relief of pseudo idealism just keep rising. Obamacare would have been a fine idea if "we the people" had been given the option of "opting out". But instead we've had a law imposed upon us. Not for protection from some crime or wrong doing, (although some supporters perceive it as such) but for the sole purpose of controlling us and creating a level playing field. We are no longer a free nation, a free people. We've just been bought into slavery by a president and his cronies.


Do you feel the same way about being forced to pay your taxes so your country can run efficiently? If so, why is that not viewed as control by the government and the USA no longer being a free country? The simple answer is you've always done it so you don't question it.


No, the simple answer is that the Constitution was amended by the American people in 1913 to permit the federal government to levy an income tax. Until then, the Feds were limited to taxes and levies authorized by the Article I of the Constitution but not an income tax.

Even liberals who support the healthcare act cannot name a federal law which forces an individual to buy a product. States can, and have, compelled people to purchase things like auto insurance to drive or a permit to build a home but not the federal government because police power is reserved to the States via the 10th Amendment. In such cases, if you do not like the state law, you can leave the state and avoid the purchase - this is a bedrock principle of our federalist system.

The whole point of the federalist system is that government power is diffused among branches at the federal and state level in order to safe guard man's freedoms and rights which come from God, not a government.


It seems to me (and this will literally get me shot probably) that the one thing that causes nearly all of the problems in American society is your bloody constitution. It seems that this is held up like some form of religious text and, in the same way, refuses to move with the times. The gun lobby hold it up saying that the constitution allows the right to bear arms - but it was written at a time when today's guns were not even thought of. Now the anti-Obamacare folks are holding it up stating something going back to 1913. For crying out loud, that's a hundred years ago. America seems to think of itself as a world leader, but that damn constitution of yours is preventing that from being the truth because people (mostly republicans) use it as a tool in order to prevent change (in the same way that religious groups use their own texts for the same purpose). The rest of the world is sitting here scratching our heads and wondering if America is in some form of idiotic time warp.

Re: How will it affect YOU? U.S. Govt. Shuttered!

Tue Oct 08, 2013 10:45 pm

I can only say that I`m happy to be living in a country where all health care is free no matter who you are or how much you earn.......we are all human and all pay the same % through our income tax. I`d really hate if I was less worthy as a human and didn`t had the same opportunity to health care as anyone else, just because of my lower income. I`m not a communist.......just a human who want the best for all......really hate to see others suffering just because they are not as lucky...........Just turn things around and see if you were the not so lucky one..........wouldn`t you like to think someone would help you?
I`ve paid a lot of tax in my time......but I got it all back during my cancer, heart trouble etc. I never,never had to worry about money during it all......

10 years ago, I never thought about me getting serious sick ........no way, but I did........more than once, but I had already paid for getting treatment through my tax.......that`s why I`m still alive today. :smt006

I would hate to see my children, or my newborn grandson getting sick....., but even if they do, I know that they will be taken care of anytime due to national health care.... :smt007
Last edited by elvisa on Tue Oct 08, 2013 11:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Re: How will it affect YOU? U.S. Govt. Shuttered!

Tue Oct 08, 2013 11:09 pm

poormadpeter wrote:It seems to me (and this will literally get me shot probably) that the one thing that causes nearly all of the problems in American society is your bloody constitution. It seems that this is held up like some form of religious text and, in the same way, refuses to move with the times. The gun lobby hold it up saying that the constitution allows the right to bear arms - but it was written at a time when today's guns were not even thought of. Now the anti-Obamacare folks are holding it up stating something going back to 1913. For crying out loud, that's a hundred years ago. America seems to think of itself as a world leader, but that damn constitution of yours is preventing that from being the truth because people (mostly republicans) use it as a tool in order to prevent change (in the same way that religious groups use their own texts for the same purpose). The rest of the world is sitting here scratching our heads and wondering if America is in some form of idiotic time warp.


I disagree that the constitution is a bad thing. I think those that try to hold on to the principles of the constitution should be praised for standing up for what they believe in. The constitution is something that shouldnt be based on politics though. That is the problem imo. Politicians shouldnt be using anything thats written in the constitution as a lever to gain votes nor should it be for political parties to disagree with one another on what is written in the constitution. For me that is for the people to decide with no political interference, but that does not happen as unfortunately this is not an ideal world. Dont underestimate the power of a constitution though. I believe the UK should have one, currently we dont. Politicians in this country take advantage of the lack of one.

Re: How will it affect YOU? U.S. Govt. Shuttered!

Tue Oct 08, 2013 11:56 pm

2kd wrote:We Americans, some of us, do hold our (bloody) Constitution in very high regards. And to paraphrase the president, I am "clinging to my religious freedoms and my guns". And for those of you who mistakenly think that the ACA will give us "free health care" think again. It isn't free. And at the risk of repeating myself for the 4th, 5th time, [HEALTH CARE AND HEALTH INSURANCE needs REFORM], not forced upon "We the People". Someone of lower income isn't less worthy than someone with a higher income and I don't feel that way at all. Reform, as opposed to FORCE is better, in my opinion. And as long as I still am free to speak, I will. The fact that it's called "affordable care" is a joke. There is nothing affordable about it. Perhaps other countries have health care that IS affordable, we DO NOT! This new system is a terrible one.


On the contrary, you will find that most countries where people pay a set amount of their taxes towards healthcare pay considerably more in taxes than those in the US. That's not necessarily the case in the UK, but in Denmark, for example, the % tax rates are huge - but the services you get in return are extremely good. I'm not quite sure where the "this isn't affordable" argument comes from. If the lowest earners can get their healthcare for $300 a year, then I would suggest that is indeed affordable - and a very small price to pay for the peace of mind and life-saving treatment it could provide. I'm sure that $300 a year actually works out to less than the average mobile phone bill, or subscription to cable. And I certainly find it laughable on a forum where the majority of active members buy at least every FTD release per year, and no doubt considerably more Elvis material than that in the majority of cases (and claim that $100 is a fair price for a book), that they claim health insurance isn't affordable. It's a case of priorities.

Re: How will it affect YOU? U.S. Govt. Shuttered!

Wed Oct 09, 2013 6:37 am

rjm wrote:Dear elviscollector101,

I am on an individual private insurance plan, and my premiums have been raised exhorbitantly several times just recently, to the point where I just can't do it anymore. I MUST sign up for the ACA, or lose access to the health care I must have to assure my continued existence. It's that simple. Check, and mate.

I have several health problems that must be supervised by physicians, or I could become quite ill, if I just ignored it. That is, of course, the situation for the uninsured, or the under-insured in this country. They just float on the sea without a life jacket, and pray not to drown. Very soon, I would become one of those uninsured, if not for the ACA, which is saving my life. If that's your "freedom," it's all yours; I sure hope it isn't mine. You may feel differently about my life, since it's mine, not yours.

The way I was taught was that we citizens of the United States of America had the right to LIFE, and liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. The latter two are impossible without the former. One must stay alive to have liberty, or pursue happiness. People have died because they did not have health insurance, or were underinsured. There are, of course, those who will say "let him die" as someone did in a Presidential Primary debate last year, when presented with a hypothetical scenario. A healthy 30-year-old man, who has no health insurance, is injured in a wreck through no fault of his own. He will die without extensive health care. An audience member answered the question for the candidates: "would you let him die?" Wolf Blitzer asked. "Yes!" an eager audience member shouted.

That's your idea of America; it's not mine. Because if you believe that, you also would say of me, with all my "pre-existing conditions," no less, "let her die."

Before I link and present an article on Communist Party Member Mitt Romney's Massachusetts health care plan, which works splendidly, I want you to click the Facebook link in my signature below (the clickable icon with the "Face Book"), and look at my FACE, and then come back and tell me to "die." If you believe it, do it. But look at my pictures first. Look at me, all of my life, growing up. Look at my parents, and any other people you see in the pictures with me, and the pictures of my personal friends, who love me. And look at my dad, in a photo taken the other day at the L.A. County Fair, at the Star Trek Exhibition. Tell HIM "let Robin die; it would be communism for her to have health care." Imagine telling him that IN PERSON.

So do that, look at the photos, really look, and then tell me: "I want to let you die."

Thank you,
Robin ("rjm")
-----

That said, please read the following article:

http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2013/10/01/227887992/lessons-for-the-obamacare-rollout-courtesy-of-massachusetts

Lessons For The Obamacare Rollout, Courtesy Of Massachusetts
by RICHARD KNOX
October 01, 2013 3:23 AM

Today marks a milestone on the nation's long march toward universal health coverage: the launch of online marketplaces, called exchanges, designed to help people find insurance they can afford.

It's an idea pioneered by Massachusetts seven years ago. People here call their program a success, and say the state's exchange was an indispensable factor.

Those involved since the beginning say the Massachusetts health insurance exchange, called the Connector, was the brainchild of former Gov. Mitt Romney, a Republican.

Glen Shor, who once ran the Connector and is now the state's secretary of administration and finance, is confident that the nation will follow Massachusetts' lead.

"As the [federal] law begins to be implemented," Shor says, "people will see and feel its positive effects. They'll be able to see through some of the rhetoric and spin."

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Politics
Romney's Mission: Massachusetts Health Care
When the Connector opened for business in late 2006, people signed up much faster than projected. Within a year there were 367,000 newly insured citizens.

"Enrollment was fast," Shor says. "One of the clear lessons of the Massachusetts experience is that people want affordable health insurance."

Today, 97 percent of the state's 6.6 million people have it — the highest coverage rate of anywhere in America.

And Shor says Obamacare will bring another 45,000 new people into the fold — those working in low-wage jobs who will qualify for an expansion of MassHealth, the state's Medicaid program.

That group represents "roughly a quarter of the remaining uninsured," says Shor. "A big deal."

Thousands more will become eligible for premium subsidies because they make under $46,000 a year (for an individual) or $94,000 (for a family of four). That will bring Massachusetts pretty close to advocates' longtime dream of universal coverage.

"It's a fight that's worth fighting, and I think ultimately it will be won," Shor says.

“ One of the clear lessons of the Massachusetts experience is that people want affordable health insurance.
- Glen Shor, secretary of the Massachusetts Office for Administration and Finance
But not everybody in Massachusetts is quite so optimistic. Rick Lord is president of Associated Industries of Massachusetts, a prominent business group. He was also a leader in the broad bipartisan coalition of business, consumers, health care providers and insurers that resulted in what some here still call Romneycare.

"I think Massachusetts got health care reform right," says Lord, adding that members of his group are proud that the state is committed to expanding health coverage.

But Lord points out that anything as complicated as health care reform is going to need some tinkering along the way. In Massachusetts, the Legislature passed without controversy three technical corrections after the law was passed. Lord doesn't see how Congress could do that with Obamacare.

"No amendment to the Affordable Care Act will be passed for fear that the whole act will unravel," he says. And that makes him more than a little worried.

"I'm feeling a little pessimistic about how it's going to play out in Washington," Lord says. "If it's not successful at all, I worry that will doom the prospects for revisiting this in the short term, [or] even the medium."

But for now, the fate of Obamacare depends on whether enough Americans vote with their feet in the coming three months, when those who want coverage under the law must choose a plan in order to be covered on Jan. 1.

"That's the big question," says Brian Rosman, research director of Health Care for All, Massachusetts' leading health consumer group.

"Will people jump over the negative publicity and go out and seek health care for themselves because it's in their interest?" Rosman wonders. "Our experience in Massachusetts is that they're going to sign up."

Rosman's colleague Kate Bicego thinks people across the country will too. She manages consumer assistance for Health Care for All.

Bicego has been getting a lot of calls from officials in other states who are scrambling to set up exchanges. She's also hearing from consumers outside Massachusetts. She's heard just about every question, worry and rant about the new exchanges.

"People don't know what Obamacare is," Bicego tells Shots. "Most people have filled their heads with a lot of misinformation about what the law actually requires of people and what the law offers."

Bicego thinks there's only so much anybody can do in advance to dispel misconceptions. She says it's only when people can get their hands on information that matters to them that proponents can cut through the confusion.

In her experience, a lot of people are surprised to hear that there are health plans they can afford; that many people qualify for help in paying the premiums; and that they're not going to be penalized on their taxes for not buying something they can't afford. But getting that across takes time.

"Once I talk to them for about an hour about 'This is actually what the law does,' people are just as excited as I am about what this means," Bicego says.

Brian Rosman predicts that the nation will turn a corner in January when millions of people start to see what it's like to have coverage.

"Once people start getting benefits and it becomes part of the infrastructure of how our health care system works," he says, "the repeal effort will fade away."

That's what happened a generation ago with Medicare and Medicaid. They were pretty controversial, too.


Rjm ,

i am very sorry you are ill and in no way am i saying you should be without and do without health care that you need . that is not what i am saying , you missed my point all together . i do not agree with obamacare , i do not agree that even tho i would love to health insurance that i am being forced take it . what is failed to realize here is that the premium's are going to be raised and by the year 2016 could be extremely high . what is poor people or middle class people going to do when they are struggling to pay their bill's now and then are forced to pay for this or have to pay for fines , or the guy who lost his job thanks to this crap economy and were he worked closed and he cannot find another job and his unemployment ran out because i talk with people like that everyday were i work and your heart goes out to them . most people would love to have health insurance ,i would love to have it as i have medical problems myself and go to doctor when i can save up the money to . but i firmly believe that obamacare is not the way to go , it has some good point's that i don't dispute but the cost of the plan will rise and rise once it is made mandatory you will have to pay whatever they say or be fined . what will happen if you cannot pay the premium or the fines , then what . i would want life and happiness for everyone , our government is in a crisis , we have overspent billions and trillion's we don't have and what goes around must come around and if they don't start fixing our financial crisis i do not see how anyone will be helped . if i could speak to a politician my first question would be this - '' every politician from governor to president " - they always talk about the past and what went wrong there , then they talk about the future and how better things will be if he / she takes office , my question is - WHAT ABOUT NOW , if they do not fix today's problem's there will be no future . nobody seem's concerned with today and the current problem's we have . we have never came out of a depression and it is going to get worse and worse . small town's are falling by the wayside , thanks to clinton the nafta agreement killed the us and million's of job's was lost and sent overseas . we should not have to depend on anyone for anything . we can make our own cloths , we can make our own electronic's we can make our own oil and gas . we would the biggest country in the world depend on anyone . but i am thru with that , but rjm i would not want you to be without health care and please understand that i am speaking for people who cannot afford the burden of this . i hope it works ok for you and you get what you need . but i do not agree with it and cannot see were this will be the answer . 2kd you seem to be the only one that get's my point and i totally agree with what you said , you said what i wanted to say only better , thanks

Re: How will it affect YOU? U.S. Govt. Shuttered!

Wed Oct 09, 2013 4:53 pm

Politicians are the only people in the world who create problems and then campaign against them.

Have you ever wondered if both the Democrats and the Republicans are against deficits, WHY does U.S. have deficits ?

Have you ever wondered if all the politicians are against inflation and high taxes, WHY does the U.S. have inflation and high taxes ?

One hundred senators, 435 congressmen, one president, and nine Supreme Court justices equates to 545 human beings out of the 300 million are directly, legally, morally, and individually responsible for the domestic problems that plague the U.S.

What separates a politician from a normal human being is an excessive amount of gall. No normal human being would have the gall of a Speaker, who stood up and criticized the President for creating deficits. The President can only propose a budget. He cannot force the Congress to accept it.

Re: How will it affect YOU? U.S. Govt. Shuttered!

Wed Oct 09, 2013 5:22 pm

2kd wrote:
elviscollector101 wrote:
rjm wrote:Dear elviscollector101,

I am on an individual private insurance plan, and my premiums have been raised exhorbitantly several times just recently, to the point where I just can't do it anymore. I MUST sign up for the ACA, or lose access to the health care I must have to assure my continued existence. It's that simple. Check, and mate.

I have several health problems that must be supervised by physicians, or I could become quite ill, if I just ignored it. That is, of course, the situation for the uninsured, or the under-insured in this country. They just float on the sea without a life jacket, and pray not to drown. Very soon, I would become one of those uninsured, if not for the ACA, which is saving my life. If that's your "freedom," it's all yours; I sure hope it isn't mine. You may feel differently about my life, since it's mine, not yours.

The way I was taught was that we citizens of the United States of America had the right to LIFE, and liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. The latter two are impossible without the former. One must stay alive to have liberty, or pursue happiness. People have died because they did not have health insurance, or were underinsured. There are, of course, those who will say "let him die" as someone did in a Presidential Primary debate last year, when presented with a hypothetical scenario. A healthy 30-year-old man, who has no health insurance, is injured in a wreck through no fault of his own. He will die without extensive health care. An audience member answered the question for the candidates: "would you let him die?" Wolf Blitzer asked. "Yes!" an eager audience member shouted.

That's your idea of America; it's not mine. Because if you believe that, you also would say of me, with all my "pre-existing conditions," no less, "let her die."

Before I link and present an article on Communist Party Member Mitt Romney's Massachusetts health care plan, which works splendidly, I want you to click the Facebook link in my signature below (the clickable icon with the "Face Book"), and look at my FACE, and then come back and tell me to "die." If you believe it, do it. But look at my pictures first. Look at me, all of my life, growing up. Look at my parents, and any other people you see in the pictures with me, and the pictures of my personal friends, who love me. And look at my dad, in a photo taken the other day at the L.A. County Fair, at the Star Trek Exhibition. Tell HIM "let Robin die; it would be communism for her to have health care." Imagine telling him that IN PERSON.

So do that, look at the photos, really look, and then tell me: "I want to let you die."

Thank you,
Robin ("rjm")
-----

That said, please read the following article:

http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2013/10/01/227887992/lessons-for-the-obamacare-rollout-courtesy-of-massachusetts

Lessons For The Obamacare Rollout, Courtesy Of Massachusetts
by RICHARD KNOX
October 01, 2013 3:23 AM

Today marks a milestone on the nation's long march toward universal health coverage: the launch of online marketplaces, called exchanges, designed to help people find insurance they can afford.

It's an idea pioneered by Massachusetts seven years ago. People here call their program a success, and say the state's exchange was an indispensable factor.

Those involved since the beginning say the Massachusetts health insurance exchange, called the Connector, was the brainchild of former Gov. Mitt Romney, a Republican.

Glen Shor, who once ran the Connector and is now the state's secretary of administration and finance, is confident that the nation will follow Massachusetts' lead.

"As the [federal] law begins to be implemented," Shor says, "people will see and feel its positive effects. They'll be able to see through some of the rhetoric and spin."

thumbnail
Politics
Romney's Mission: Massachusetts Health Care
When the Connector opened for business in late 2006, people signed up much faster than projected. Within a year there were 367,000 newly insured citizens.

"Enrollment was fast," Shor says. "One of the clear lessons of the Massachusetts experience is that people want affordable health insurance."

Today, 97 percent of the state's 6.6 million people have it — the highest coverage rate of anywhere in America.

And Shor says Obamacare will bring another 45,000 new people into the fold — those working in low-wage jobs who will qualify for an expansion of MassHealth, the state's Medicaid program.

That group represents "roughly a quarter of the remaining uninsured," says Shor. "A big deal."

Thousands more will become eligible for premium subsidies because they make under $46,000 a year (for an individual) or $94,000 (for a family of four). That will bring Massachusetts pretty close to advocates' longtime dream of universal coverage.

"It's a fight that's worth fighting, and I think ultimately it will be won," Shor says.

“ One of the clear lessons of the Massachusetts experience is that people want affordable health insurance.
- Glen Shor, secretary of the Massachusetts Office for Administration and Finance
But not everybody in Massachusetts is quite so optimistic. Rick Lord is president of Associated Industries of Massachusetts, a prominent business group. He was also a leader in the broad bipartisan coalition of business, consumers, health care providers and insurers that resulted in what some here still call Romneycare.

"I think Massachusetts got health care reform right," says Lord, adding that members of his group are proud that the state is committed to expanding health coverage.

But Lord points out that anything as complicated as health care reform is going to need some tinkering along the way. In Massachusetts, the Legislature passed without controversy three technical corrections after the law was passed. Lord doesn't see how Congress could do that with Obamacare.

"No amendment to the Affordable Care Act will be passed for fear that the whole act will unravel," he says. And that makes him more than a little worried.

"I'm feeling a little pessimistic about how it's going to play out in Washington," Lord says. "If it's not successful at all, I worry that will doom the prospects for revisiting this in the short term, [or] even the medium."

But for now, the fate of Obamacare depends on whether enough Americans vote with their feet in the coming three months, when those who want coverage under the law must choose a plan in order to be covered on Jan. 1.

"That's the big question," says Brian Rosman, research director of Health Care for All, Massachusetts' leading health consumer group.

"Will people jump over the negative publicity and go out and seek health care for themselves because it's in their interest?" Rosman wonders. "Our experience in Massachusetts is that they're going to sign up."

Rosman's colleague Kate Bicego thinks people across the country will too. She manages consumer assistance for Health Care for All.

Bicego has been getting a lot of calls from officials in other states who are scrambling to set up exchanges. She's also hearing from consumers outside Massachusetts. She's heard just about every question, worry and rant about the new exchanges.

"People don't know what Obamacare is," Bicego tells Shots. "Most people have filled their heads with a lot of misinformation about what the law actually requires of people and what the law offers."

Bicego thinks there's only so much anybody can do in advance to dispel misconceptions. She says it's only when people can get their hands on information that matters to them that proponents can cut through the confusion.

In her experience, a lot of people are surprised to hear that there are health plans they can afford; that many people qualify for help in paying the premiums; and that they're not going to be penalized on their taxes for not buying something they can't afford. But getting that across takes time.

"Once I talk to them for about an hour about 'This is actually what the law does,' people are just as excited as I am about what this means," Bicego says.

Brian Rosman predicts that the nation will turn a corner in January when millions of people start to see what it's like to have coverage.

"Once people start getting benefits and it becomes part of the infrastructure of how our health care system works," he says, "the repeal effort will fade away."

That's what happened a generation ago with Medicare and Medicaid. They were pretty controversial, too.


Rjm ,

i am very sorry you are ill and in no way am i saying you should be without and do without health care that you need . that is not what i am saying , you missed my point all together . i do not agree with obamacare , i do not agree that even tho i would love to health insurance that i am being forced take it . what is failed to realize here is that the premium's are going to be raised and by the year 2016 could be extremely high . what is poor people or middle class people going to do when they are struggling to pay their bill's now and then are forced to pay for this or have to pay for fines , or the guy who lost his job thanks to this crap economy and were he worked closed and he cannot find another job and his unemployment ran out because i talk with people like that everyday were i work and your heart goes out to them . most people would love to have health insurance ,i would love to have it as i have medical problems myself and go to doctor when i can save up the money to . but i firmly believe that obamacare is not the way to go , it has some good point's that i don't dispute but the cost of the plan will rise and rise once it is made mandatory you will have to pay whatever they say or be fined . what will happen if you cannot pay the premium or the fines , then what . i would want life and happiness for everyone , our government is in a crisis , we have overspent billions and trillion's we don't have and what goes around must come around and if they don't start fixing our financial crisis i do not see how anyone will be helped . if i could speak to a politician my first question would be this - '' every politician from governor to president " - they always talk about the past and what went wrong there , then they talk about the future and how better things will be if he / she takes office , my question is - WHAT ABOUT NOW , if they do not fix today's problem's there will be no future . nobody seem's concerned with today and the current problem's we have . we have never came out of a depression and it is going to get worse and worse . small town's are falling by the wayside , thanks to clinton the nafta agreement killed the us and million's of job's was lost and sent overseas . we should not have to depend on anyone for anything . we can make our own cloths , we can make our own electronic's we can make our own oil and gas . we would the biggest country in the world depend on anyone . but i am thru with that , but rjm i would not want you to be without health care and please understand that i am speaking for people who cannot afford the burden of this . i hope it works ok for you and you get what you need . but i do not agree with it and cannot see were this will be the answer . 2kd you seem to be the only one that get's my point and i totally agree with what you said , you said what i wanted to say only better , thanks
This whole debate has stirred up strife and anger. I don't wish to contribute to either. But I too can see where this is leading. One person from the UK stated that he/she is grateful for the "free" health care over there and that we Americans should stop fighting this. What that person failed to understand is this is not "free". Someone has to pay. We all have to. I've stated over and over again, our health insurance and health care need reforms that will serve all. ACA is fine for those who want it, and it should be "offered" not forced. Thank you for the kind words. I don't much care to be bullied into something I don't feel is right or fair and I don't care to have the other people on this forum pissed off at me. But this is still a free country and freedom of speech is still an option, at least for now. I've battled health issues for a while now myself. Having cancer was not something I ever thought I'd have to deal with. I'm not rich, so this has hit my family very hard. I don't buy a lot of Elvis "stuff" as one poster suggested. I just come here to enjoy the wonderful pictures and information. It's been a source of enjoyment and a great distraction for me. But maybe I should rethink that too. I may have to find another Elvis forum to visit. The current situation in our country has left us divided and tempers run pretty hot sometimes. I'm not up to the crap and don't need the added stress. Take care. :smt006


Health care in the UK and other countries is not free. We pay for it via various taxes - as you do for every other service that we think of as "free" (police, fire service etc). We simply don't think about paying for it because it's taken out of our wages (without a chance for us to opt out) before it reaches us. In other words we don't have a choice about whether we pay for it either - and those who use BUPA and other private healthcare in the UK STILL have to pay towards the running of the NHS.

The only reason it seems different to you is because this has never happened before in America, and because you are being asked to pay for it AFTER it reaches your bank account and not before.

On a side note, I never suggested that YOU buy a lot of Elvis stuff but that the "majority of members" do. My point is that many have their priorities in the wrong place when they are saying they get $65000 income but can't afford healthcare. It's ridiculous.

Re: How will it affect YOU? U.S. Govt. Shuttered!

Wed Oct 09, 2013 7:41 pm

Any sucker that does not want Obamacare should not whine when he/she cannot pay their medical bills and certainly not ask for a charity event to pay the medical bills.
You have your privacy and no money or no privacy and money. Your choice!

Re: How will it affect YOU? U.S. Govt. Shuttered!

Wed Oct 09, 2013 8:58 pm

zolderopruiming1 wrote:Any sucker that does not want Obamacare should not whine when he/she cannot pay their medical bills and certainly not ask for a charity event to pay the medical bills.


That pretty much sums it up.

No matter what is said elsewhere, $65000 (as an example as it was raised elsewhere) is a figure where the family in question can afford healthcare. I simply don't care what other outgoings they have - healthcare should come before all of them. once you've paid household bills and healthcare then you see what's left over to find out what else you can afford - not the other way round. While 2kd was talking about a family sending their son to a private school (and I wholly sympathise with the son), the fact remains that if they weren't earning that amount of money then they couldn't have done that. It is, therefore, a luxury above and beyond the necessity of healthcare.

Re: How will it affect YOU? U.S. Govt. Shuttered!

Wed Oct 09, 2013 10:32 pm

2kd wrote:
poormadpeter wrote:
zolderopruiming1 wrote:Any sucker that does not want Obamacare should not whine when he/she cannot pay their medical bills and certainly not ask for a charity event to pay the medical bills.


That pretty much sums it up.

No matter what is said elsewhere, $65000 (as an example as it was raised elsewhere) is a figure where the family in question can afford healthcare. I simply don't care what other outgoings they have - healthcare should come before all of them. once you've paid household bills and healthcare then you see what's left over to find out what else you can afford - not the other way round. While 2kd was talking about a family sending their son to a private school (and I wholly sympathise with the son), the fact remains that if they weren't earning that amount of money then they couldn't have done that. It is, therefore, a luxury above and beyond the necessity of healthcare.

So, playing devil's advocate. . .the family should pay bills, buy health care, then, if there is enough, send their son to a private school? But if there isn't enough left over for private school, what then? Should they take the chance of getting the dogsh*t beat out of him again? How do you justify this? We're talking about a grade school age child, not a teen. Either way, it would be devastating. This was not a simple case of bullying on the playground. He couldn't eat lunch, he couldn't go to the bathroom, etc.


I know, I've been there too - was in that position for most of my school life. My parents couldn't afford to send me to private school so the school itself was forced to deal with it - and with so much publicity about the issue of bullying now, pressure on them could do a lot. Either way, my argument stands - if they didn't have 65000 coming in per year, what would the boy do? Stay at home? There are thousands, probably tens of thousands, boys in his position whose parents don't have the finances to change schools.

Either way, private day school in America is around $10000-15000 per year according to websites. That still leaves around $50000 minus taxes. I would very much like to have that kind of income, as I'm sure would many others - many others who CAN afford health insurance. Even with medical insurance taken out of it, that still leaves a damn good wage.

If a family on that income say they cannot afford health insurance then there is something drastically wrong somewhere - either they have a house they shouldn't have ever bought in the first place or one of them has a gambing problem (joke). In other words, they are clearly living beyond their means, and that means more to them than the health of their family. That's where the problem lies, not with the idea of compulsory health insurance.

Re: How will it affect YOU? U.S. Govt. Shuttered!

Thu Oct 10, 2013 1:04 am

2kd wrote:
poormadpeter wrote:
2kd wrote:
elviscollector101 wrote:
rjm wrote:Dear elviscollector101,

I am on an individual private insurance plan, and my premiums have been raised exhorbitantly several times just recently, to the point where I just can't do it anymore. I MUST sign up for the ACA, or lose access to the health care I must have to assure my continued existence. It's that simple. Check, and mate.

I have several health problems that must be supervised by physicians, or I could become quite ill, if I just ignored it. That is, of course, the situation for the uninsured, or the under-insured in this country. They just float on the sea without a life jacket, and pray not to drown. Very soon, I would become one of those uninsured, if not for the ACA, which is saving my life. If that's your "freedom," it's all yours; I sure hope it isn't mine. You may feel differently about my life, since it's mine, not yours.

The way I was taught was that we citizens of the United States of America had the right to LIFE, and liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. The latter two are impossible without the former. One must stay alive to have liberty, or pursue happiness. People have died because they did not have health insurance, or were underinsured. There are, of course, those who will say "let him die" as someone did in a Presidential Primary debate last year, when presented with a hypothetical scenario. A healthy 30-year-old man, who has no health insurance, is injured in a wreck through no fault of his own. He will die without extensive health care. An audience member answered the question for the candidates: "would you let him die?" Wolf Blitzer asked. "Yes!" an eager audience member shouted.

That's your idea of America; it's not mine. Because if you believe that, you also would say of me, with all my "pre-existing conditions," no less, "let her die."

Before I link and present an article on Communist Party Member Mitt Romney's Massachusetts health care plan, which works splendidly, I want you to click the Facebook link in my signature below (the clickable icon with the "Face Book"), and look at my FACE, and then come back and tell me to "die." If you believe it, do it. But look at my pictures first. Look at me, all of my life, growing up. Look at my parents, and any other people you see in the pictures with me, and the pictures of my personal friends, who love me. And look at my dad, in a photo taken the other day at the L.A. County Fair, at the Star Trek Exhibition. Tell HIM "let Robin die; it would be communism for her to have health care." Imagine telling him that IN PERSON.

So do that, look at the photos, really look, and then tell me: "I want to let you die."

Thank you,
Robin ("rjm")
-----

That said, please read the following article:

http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2013/10/01/227887992/lessons-for-the-obamacare-rollout-courtesy-of-massachusetts

Lessons For The Obamacare Rollout, Courtesy Of Massachusetts
by RICHARD KNOX
October 01, 2013 3:23 AM

Today marks a milestone on the nation's long march toward universal health coverage: the launch of online marketplaces, called exchanges, designed to help people find insurance they can afford.

It's an idea pioneered by Massachusetts seven years ago. People here call their program a success, and say the state's exchange was an indispensable factor.

Those involved since the beginning say the Massachusetts health insurance exchange, called the Connector, was the brainchild of former Gov. Mitt Romney, a Republican.

Glen Shor, who once ran the Connector and is now the state's secretary of administration and finance, is confident that the nation will follow Massachusetts' lead.

"As the [federal] law begins to be implemented," Shor says, "people will see and feel its positive effects. They'll be able to see through some of the rhetoric and spin."

thumbnail
Politics
Romney's Mission: Massachusetts Health Care
When the Connector opened for business in late 2006, people signed up much faster than projected. Within a year there were 367,000 newly insured citizens.

"Enrollment was fast," Shor says. "One of the clear lessons of the Massachusetts experience is that people want affordable health insurance."

Today, 97 percent of the state's 6.6 million people have it — the highest coverage rate of anywhere in America.

And Shor says Obamacare will bring another 45,000 new people into the fold — those working in low-wage jobs who will qualify for an expansion of MassHealth, the state's Medicaid program.

That group represents "roughly a quarter of the remaining uninsured," says Shor. "A big deal."

Thousands more will become eligible for premium subsidies because they make under $46,000 a year (for an individual) or $94,000 (for a family of four). That will bring Massachusetts pretty close to advocates' longtime dream of universal coverage.

"It's a fight that's worth fighting, and I think ultimately it will be won," Shor says.

“ One of the clear lessons of the Massachusetts experience is that people want affordable health insurance.
- Glen Shor, secretary of the Massachusetts Office for Administration and Finance
But not everybody in Massachusetts is quite so optimistic. Rick Lord is president of Associated Industries of Massachusetts, a prominent business group. He was also a leader in the broad bipartisan coalition of business, consumers, health care providers and insurers that resulted in what some here still call Romneycare.

"I think Massachusetts got health care reform right," says Lord, adding that members of his group are proud that the state is committed to expanding health coverage.

But Lord points out that anything as complicated as health care reform is going to need some tinkering along the way. In Massachusetts, the Legislature passed without controversy three technical corrections after the law was passed. Lord doesn't see how Congress could do that with Obamacare.

"No amendment to the Affordable Care Act will be passed for fear that the whole act will unravel," he says. And that makes him more than a little worried.

"I'm feeling a little pessimistic about how it's going to play out in Washington," Lord says. "If it's not successful at all, I worry that will doom the prospects for revisiting this in the short term, [or] even the medium."

But for now, the fate of Obamacare depends on whether enough Americans vote with their feet in the coming three months, when those who want coverage under the law must choose a plan in order to be covered on Jan. 1.

"That's the big question," says Brian Rosman, research director of Health Care for All, Massachusetts' leading health consumer group.

"Will people jump over the negative publicity and go out and seek health care for themselves because it's in their interest?" Rosman wonders. "Our experience in Massachusetts is that they're going to sign up."

Rosman's colleague Kate Bicego thinks people across the country will too. She manages consumer assistance for Health Care for All.

Bicego has been getting a lot of calls from officials in other states who are scrambling to set up exchanges. She's also hearing from consumers outside Massachusetts. She's heard just about every question, worry and rant about the new exchanges.

"People don't know what Obamacare is," Bicego tells Shots. "Most people have filled their heads with a lot of misinformation about what the law actually requires of people and what the law offers."

Bicego thinks there's only so much anybody can do in advance to dispel misconceptions. She says it's only when people can get their hands on information that matters to them that proponents can cut through the confusion.

In her experience, a lot of people are surprised to hear that there are health plans they can afford; that many people qualify for help in paying the premiums; and that they're not going to be penalized on their taxes for not buying something they can't afford. But getting that across takes time.

"Once I talk to them for about an hour about 'This is actually what the law does,' people are just as excited as I am about what this means," Bicego says.

Brian Rosman predicts that the nation will turn a corner in January when millions of people start to see what it's like to have coverage.

"Once people start getting benefits and it becomes part of the infrastructure of how our health care system works," he says, "the repeal effort will fade away."

That's what happened a generation ago with Medicare and Medicaid. They were pretty controversial, too.


Rjm ,

i am very sorry you are ill and in no way am i saying you should be without and do without health care that you need . that is not what i am saying , you missed my point all together . i do not agree with obamacare , i do not agree that even tho i would love to health insurance that i am being forced take it . what is failed to realize here is that the premium's are going to be raised and by the year 2016 could be extremely high . what is poor people or middle class people going to do when they are struggling to pay their bill's now and then are forced to pay for this or have to pay for fines , or the guy who lost his job thanks to this crap economy and were he worked closed and he cannot find another job and his unemployment ran out because i talk with people like that everyday were i work and your heart goes out to them . most people would love to have health insurance ,i would love to have it as i have medical problems myself and go to doctor when i can save up the money to . but i firmly believe that obamacare is not the way to go , it has some good point's that i don't dispute but the cost of the plan will rise and rise once it is made mandatory you will have to pay whatever they say or be fined . what will happen if you cannot pay the premium or the fines , then what . i would want life and happiness for everyone , our government is in a crisis , we have overspent billions and trillion's we don't have and what goes around must come around and if they don't start fixing our financial crisis i do not see how anyone will be helped . if i could speak to a politician my first question would be this - '' every politician from governor to president " - they always talk about the past and what went wrong there , then they talk about the future and how better things will be if he / she takes office , my question is - WHAT ABOUT NOW , if they do not fix today's problem's there will be no future . nobody seem's concerned with today and the current problem's we have . we have never came out of a depression and it is going to get worse and worse . small town's are falling by the wayside , thanks to clinton the nafta agreement killed the us and million's of job's was lost and sent overseas . we should not have to depend on anyone for anything . we can make our own cloths , we can make our own electronic's we can make our own oil and gas . we would the biggest country in the world depend on anyone . but i am thru with that , but rjm i would not want you to be without health care and please understand that i am speaking for people who cannot afford the burden of this . i hope it works ok for you and you get what you need . but i do not agree with it and cannot see were this will be the answer . 2kd you seem to be the only one that get's my point and i totally agree with what you said , you said what i wanted to say only better , thanks
This whole debate has stirred up strife and anger. I don't wish to contribute to either. But I too can see where this is leading. One person from the UK stated that he/she is grateful for the "free" health care over there and that we Americans should stop fighting this. What that person failed to understand is this is not "free". Someone has to pay. We all have to. I've stated over and over again, our health insurance and health care need reforms that will serve all. ACA is fine for those who want it, and it should be "offered" not forced. Thank you for the kind words. I don't much care to be bullied into something I don't feel is right or fair and I don't care to have the other people on this forum pissed off at me. But this is still a free country and freedom of speech is still an option, at least for now. I've battled health issues for a while now myself. Having cancer was not something I ever thought I'd have to deal with. I'm not rich, so this has hit my family very hard. I don't buy a lot of Elvis "stuff" as one poster suggested. I just come here to enjoy the wonderful pictures and information. It's been a source of enjoyment and a great distraction for me. But maybe I should rethink that too. I may have to find another Elvis forum to visit. The current situation in our country has left us divided and tempers run pretty hot sometimes. I'm not up to the crap and don't need the added stress. Take care. :smt006


Health care in the UK and other countries is not free. We pay for it via various taxes - as you do for every other service that we think of as "free" (police, fire service etc). We simply don't think about paying for it because it's taken out of our wages (without a chance for us to opt out) before it reaches us. In other words we don't have a choice about whether we pay for it either - and those who use BUPA and other private healthcare in the UK STILL have to pay towards the running of the NHS.

The only reason it seems different to you is because this has never happened before in America, and because you are being asked to pay for it AFTER it reaches your bank account and not before.

On a side note, I never suggested that YOU buy a lot of Elvis stuff but that the "majority of members" do. My point is that many have their priorities in the wrong place when they are saying they get $65000 income but can't afford healthcare. It's ridiculous.

At the risk of sounding argumentative, I didn't know who you were referencing in regards to "buying Elvis stuff", and the family I mentioned are not Elvis fans, so they don't buy it either. In fact they are quite thrifty and use their money as wisely as they can. There are many details of their lives I didn't mention as there isn't enough space here nor time. I was just making a point. And yes, "The only reason it seems different to you is because this has never happened before in America, and because you are being asked to pay for it AFTER it reaches your bank account and not before." But for me, that is a valid reason to not agree with or like it! I don't have to. As an American, (and I'm sure some may view this as arrogance) I do have every right to speak out against something that is being imposed on me and that I don't want. That is one of the many great things about our freedom. We get to say what's on our mind. We can stand up for our rights and when unfair laws are created, we can lobby to remove them or at least change them. Again, for those who support Obamacare, I say go for it. But for those who oppose, we should have a right to opt out. There are things in that law that I cannot support as a born-again believer. Uh-oh, now I've done it. Let's hear it. Oooh, the weird Christian lady doesn't agree with abortion. That too, is my right. :D


So if I get you right you are very much opposed to your government forcing you to take health insurance, but on the other hand you find it normal that your government forces woman to keep the fetus in her womb, even if there are legitimate reason to aborte?

Re: How will it affect YOU? U.S. Govt. Shuttered!

Thu Oct 10, 2013 1:23 am

2kd wrote:Well we are not going to find common ground here. So moving along. :smt006


2kd i totally agree with you and we are on the same page , you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink it . so moving along also ::rocks

Re: How will it affect YOU? U.S. Govt. Shuttered!

Thu Oct 10, 2013 3:40 am

I am disgusted with everything I see in Washington these days. Neither party is blameless, and neither party seems eager to fix it.

God forbid I try to visit Gettysburg or Mt. Rushmore, the President's approval rating has reached a low of 37%, and this latest issue of not paying the expenses of our fallen soldiers is an absolute disgrace to all Americans, but especially those families (like mine) who have a loved one serving in the military. Certainly, the Commander in Chief could see to it that this farce didn't happen.

I'm not saying that everything we're seeing falls on the President, but you can be sure that if GWB was still in office, he'd take the hit for it being on his watch.

Re: How will it affect YOU? U.S. Govt. Shuttered!

Thu Oct 10, 2013 10:06 am

poormadpeter wrote:
2kd wrote:
poormadpeter wrote:
zolderopruiming1 wrote:Any sucker that does not want Obamacare should not whine when he/she cannot pay their medical bills and certainly not ask for a charity event to pay the medical bills.


That pretty much sums it up.

No matter what is said elsewhere, $65000 (as an example as it was raised elsewhere) is a figure where the family in question can afford healthcare. I simply don't care what other outgoings they have - healthcare should come before all of them. once you've paid household bills and healthcare then you see what's left over to find out what else you can afford - not the other way round. While 2kd was talking about a family sending their son to a private school (and I wholly sympathise with the son), the fact remains that if they weren't earning that amount of money then they couldn't have done that. It is, therefore, a luxury above and beyond the necessity of healthcare.

So, playing devil's advocate. . .the family should pay bills, buy health care, then, if there is enough, send their son to a private school? But if there isn't enough left over for private school, what then? Should they take the chance of getting the dogsh*t beat out of him again? How do you justify this? We're talking about a grade school age child, not a teen. Either way, it would be devastating. This was not a simple case of bullying on the playground. He couldn't eat lunch, he couldn't go to the bathroom, etc.


I know, I've been there too - was in that position for most of my school life. My parents couldn't afford to send me to private school so the school itself was forced to deal with it - and with so much publicity about the issue of bullying now, pressure on them could do a lot. Either way, my argument stands - if they didn't have 65000 coming in per year, what would the boy do? Stay at home? There are thousands, probably tens of thousands, boys in his position whose parents don't have the finances to change schools.

Either way, private day school in America is around $10000-15000 per year according to websites. That still leaves around $50000 minus taxes. I would very much like to have that kind of income, as I'm sure would many others - many others who CAN afford health insurance. Even with medical insurance taken out of it, that still leaves a damn good wage.

If a family on that income say they cannot afford health insurance then there is something drastically wrong somewhere - either they have a house they shouldn't have ever bought in the first place or one of them has a gambing problem (joke). In other words, they are clearly living beyond their means, and that means more to them than the health of their family. That's where the problem lies, not with the idea of compulsory health insurance.


I dont get it either, who values private school of a child over having guaranteed health care for the whole family?

And $65K is approx £40K, seriously, they cannot live on that amount of money? And in comparison to the UK, food is cheaper and taxes are less...crazy

Re: How will it affect YOU? U.S. Govt. Shuttered!

Thu Oct 10, 2013 11:56 am

Homeschooling is now a real option in most states. As for inexpensive assistance for such homeschooling, it's everywhere. One can join a collective which shares the same educational philosophy.

If you think private schools are sanctuaries, that's dreamland.

There are many options nowadays. Far more so than with health care.

rjm

Sent From My Phabulous Galaxy Note II Phablet Using Tapatalk 4

Re: How will it affect YOU? U.S. Govt. Shuttered!

Thu Oct 10, 2013 7:29 pm

2kd wrote:
elviscollector101 wrote:
2kd wrote:Well we are not going to find common ground here. So moving along. :smt006


2kd i totally agree with you and we are on the same page , you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink it . so moving along also ::rocks

I didn't think I could convince anyone to understand, and as I stated earlier, the family has other "issues". They do have 2 children and lost a child as well. So there is a lot more to the story. These are not folks who are trying to appear as "elitist" by sending their boy to a parochial school. It was a necessity. They are, however, looking into homeschooling. It's not so easy where they live. They're in a very rural area with just a few other families who are home schooling and they are trying to overcome a lot, including the great loss of a child. Although, I don't think anyone can just "get over" that. :( In addition to the mental and emotional anguish, there has been the financial side of it. Too much to go into, and I certainly don't feel I should have to explain. I was merely using their situation as an example. The problem too, is that if a person/family are just a few dollars over the limit, they still fall into a certain place and must pay for insurance they [still] cannot afford. The gov't isn't going to ask about their other problems, their dead child and the cost associated with that. It appears that the gov't and perhaps even some here could give a damn about such things. It all feels like it's so impersonal. So cruel. Where is the integrity, the empathy, the compassion? Not everyone is the same, nor should we be. There is NO level playing field even if the current administration wants there to be. This is the U.S. and we are different...or at least we used to be.
His name was Samuel . . .


No matter how sorry we should feel for the family for personal tragedy, that's hardly the point. The facts are as follows: they earn $65000 a year and yet don't think health insurance is important enough to be a necessity (despite the fact they have already lost a child? That makes it even more baffling. I'm sorry). Yes, they think the private school is a necessity, but then they should also think what a family on $20000 a year would do in the same situation? How do they cope? And families on $20000 lose children too, sadly. These issues are not what is important in this argument.

Tragedies aside, I cannot feel empathy or compassion for a family earning double the highest wage I have ever earned who say they cannot afford the essentials - and health insurance IS an essential. Perhaps they aimed to high when they got their mortgage, but then one can always downsize or move to a less respected area of town.

We seem to forget what is and isn't a necessity these days - someone on $65000 can own a car from new, each member of family have a mobile phone, go down the pub twice a week, subscribe to cable to tv, have a house in a good neighbourhood (and/or enrol your son at private school) and then claim they can't afford health insurance, which is bonkers.

Ask the mother of the son in In The Ghetto if she could afford health insurance if she had $65000 a year coming in and she'd give you the answer.

Re: How will it affect YOU? U.S. Govt. Shuttered!

Fri Oct 11, 2013 1:26 am

2kd wrote:
poormadpeter wrote:
2kd wrote:
elviscollector101 wrote:
2kd wrote:Well we are not going to find common ground here. So moving along. :smt006


2kd i totally agree with you and we are on the same page , you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink it . so moving along also ::rocks

I didn't think I could convince anyone to understand, and as I stated earlier, the family has other "issues". They do have 2 children and lost a child as well. So there is a lot more to the story. These are not folks who are trying to appear as "elitist" by sending their boy to a parochial school. It was a necessity. They are, however, looking into homeschooling. It's not so easy where they live. They're in a very rural area with just a few other families who are home schooling and they are trying to overcome a lot, including the great loss of a child. Although, I don't think anyone can just "get over" that. :( In addition to the mental and emotional anguish, there has been the financial side of it. Too much to go into, and I certainly don't feel I should have to explain. I was merely using their situation as an example. The problem too, is that if a person/family are just a few dollars over the limit, they still fall into a certain place and must pay for insurance they [still] cannot afford. The gov't isn't going to ask about their other problems, their dead child and the cost associated with that. It appears that the gov't and perhaps even some here could give a damn about such things. It all feels like it's so impersonal. So cruel. Where is the integrity, the empathy, the compassion? Not everyone is the same, nor should we be. There is NO level playing field even if the current administration wants there to be. This is the U.S. and we are different...or at least we used to be.
His name was Samuel . . .


No matter how sorry we should feel for the family for personal tragedy, that's hardly the point. The facts are as follows: they earn $65000 a year and yet don't think health insurance is important enough to be a necessity (despite the fact they have already lost a child? That makes it even more baffling. I'm sorry). Yes, they think the private school is a necessity, but then they should also think what a family on $20000 a year would do in the same situation? How do they cope? And families on $20000 lose children too, sadly. These issues are not what is important in this argument.

Tragedies aside, I cannot feel empathy or compassion for a family earning double the highest wage I have ever earned who say they cannot afford the essentials - and health insurance IS an essential. Perhaps they aimed to high when they got their mortgage, but then one can always downsize or move to a less respected area of town.

We seem to forget what is and isn't a necessity these days - someone on $65000 can own a car from new, each member of family have a mobile phone, go down the pub twice a week, subscribe to cable to tv, have a house in a good neighbourhood (and/or enrol your son at private school) and then claim they can't afford health insurance, which is bonkers.

Ask the mother of the son in In The Ghetto if she could afford health insurance if she had $65000 a year coming in and she'd give you the answer.


In the Ghetto??? Come one, these are real people with a real family, and a real child who died. They don't have cable, don't go to the bar (there is no bar where they live), and they can't move to a "less respected" part of town as they don't live in town. Mom drives over an hour 1 way to work, dad works closer to home. They obviously have other things going on that are far too personal for me to mention here. Of course what's more personal than the loss of a child?

You ain't so big, you're tall that's all.

This is America. We still have some freedoms and O'care should be a choice, not a law. OPT OUT!!!


Then one has to ask what exactly they spend their money on - and why the loss of a child is a continual significant cost to them.

But that family aside, you were saying you would suffer similar problems and yet earn roughly the same amount as them. It appears to me it's a case of politics clouding common sense.

Re: How will it affect YOU? U.S. Govt. Shuttered!

Fri Oct 11, 2013 2:22 am

2kd wrote:
poormadpeter wrote:
2kd wrote:
poormadpeter wrote:
2kd wrote:
elviscollector101 wrote:
2kd wrote:Well we are not going to find common ground here. So moving along. :smt006


2kd i totally agree with you and we are on the same page , you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink it . so moving along also ::rocks

I didn't think I could convince anyone to understand, and as I stated earlier, the family has other "issues". They do have 2 children and lost a child as well. So there is a lot more to the story. These are not folks who are trying to appear as "elitist" by sending their boy to a parochial school. It was a necessity. They are, however, looking into homeschooling. It's not so easy where they live. They're in a very rural area with just a few other families who are home schooling and they are trying to overcome a lot, including the great loss of a child. Although, I don't think anyone can just "get over" that. :( In addition to the mental and emotional anguish, there has been the financial side of it. Too much to go into, and I certainly don't feel I should have to explain. I was merely using their situation as an example. The problem too, is that if a person/family are just a few dollars over the limit, they still fall into a certain place and must pay for insurance they [still] cannot afford. The gov't isn't going to ask about their other problems, their dead child and the cost associated with that. It appears that the gov't and perhaps even some here could give a damn about such things. It all feels like it's so impersonal. So cruel. Where is the integrity, the empathy, the compassion? Not everyone is the same, nor should we be. There is NO level playing field even if the current administration wants there to be. This is the U.S. and we are different...or at least we used to be.
His name was Samuel . . .


No matter how sorry we should feel for the family for personal tragedy, that's hardly the point. The facts are as follows: they earn $65000 a year and yet don't think health insurance is important enough to be a necessity (despite the fact they have already lost a child? That makes it even more baffling. I'm sorry). Yes, they think the private school is a necessity, but then they should also think what a family on $20000 a year would do in the same situation? How do they cope? And families on $20000 lose children too, sadly. These issues are not what is important in this argument.

Tragedies aside, I cannot feel empathy or compassion for a family earning double the highest wage I have ever earned who say they cannot afford the essentials - and health insurance IS an essential. Perhaps they aimed to high when they got their mortgage, but then one can always downsize or move to a less respected area of town.

We seem to forget what is and isn't a necessity these days - someone on $65000 can own a car from new, each member of family have a mobile phone, go down the pub twice a week, subscribe to cable to tv, have a house in a good neighbourhood (and/or enrol your son at private school) and then claim they can't afford health insurance, which is bonkers.

Ask the mother of the son in In The Ghetto if she could afford health insurance if she had $65000 a year coming in and she'd give you the answer.


In the Ghetto??? Come one, these are real people with a real family, and a real child who died. They don't have cable, don't go to the bar (there is no bar where they live), and they can't move to a "less respected" part of town as they don't live in town. Mom drives over an hour 1 way to work, dad works closer to home. They obviously have other things going on that are far too personal for me to mention here. Of course what's more personal than the loss of a child?

You ain't so big, you're tall that's all.

This is America. We still have some freedoms and O'care should be a choice, not a law. OPT OUT!!!
Then one has to ask what exactly they spend their money on - and why the loss of a child is a continual significant cost to them.

But that family aside, you were saying you would suffer similar problems and yet earn roughly the same amount as them. It appears to me it's a case of politics clouding common sense.

I didn't say [when] they lost their child, nor did I say I earn as much as they do. I have ongoing health issues after cancer. I actually earn more than they do. OOOOOOhhhh, now you really have something to b*tch about. No, I'm not rich. It takes a lot to combat serious illness. I have a simple home in the country and live a fairly simple, non-luxurious life.


Surely it takes more to combat serious illness if you haven't got health insurance than if you haven't??? But, once again, the same scenario applies (heartless though it may sound) - people in your position survive on a third of your wages, and so to say you can't afford the expense of health insurance doesn't wash. (and you had already said you earned more than they did).

Re: How will it affect YOU? U.S. Govt. Shuttered!

Fri Oct 11, 2013 4:06 am

The people have spoken.

The Republican party is blamed by a majority of Americans for this latest debacle.

Can't say that I disagree. People don't like bullies.

WASHINGTON, Oct. 10 (UPI) -- A majority of Americans blame Republicans for the government shutdown and would vote to replace every member of Congress if they could, a poll showed Thursday.

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2013/10/10/53-percent-of-Americans-blame-GOP-for-government-shutdown-poll/UPI-96801381447323/


Similar reports:
http://news.yahoo.com/poll-gop-gets-blame-shutdown-072856768--finance.html
http://firstread.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/10/10/20903624-nbcwsj-poll-shutdown-debate-damages-gop
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-250_162-57606670/republicans-hammer-obama-over-government-shutdown-get-hammered-in-polls/

Re: How will it affect YOU? U.S. Govt. Shuttered!

Fri Oct 11, 2013 5:18 am

{sigh}

This whole notion of "opt-out" is only out there because of the reason the Supreme Court upheld the law. Justice Roberts found a technicality upon which to rule the so-called "penalty" for "opting out" as a "tax." And that's perfectly constitutional. And that's apparently what aggravates many, but certainly not most people. A separate "additional" tax. (As though we don't all pay a penalty throughout the entire economic system for the un- and underinsured! Emergency Rooms cannot presently turn down anyone, even for a cold. They are swamped with people who fall just in between the various levels of Medicaid and lack of insurance. That costs the whole system in a way that it shouldn't.)

In any event, this is the flaw of this compromise, which it is. It is not single-payer, as in so many other western nations; it is RomneyCare, a Republican plan that keeps the private insurers in the game! That is what a lot of people are missing. If we had the whole nine yards, paid right of everyone's regular payroll deductions (as with Medicare/Social Security), it would be barely noticed. In fact, the vast majority of Americans of almost every political persuasion WANT those two programs very much. That is not communism, or even socialism; it's become part of our agreement as a society that hardly anyone wants to give up. If we had single-payer, it would viewed similarly, meaning skepticism at first and later, something people just count on.

The ACA's only problem is that it doesn't go far enough: it is a separate arrangement with insurance companies which is subsidized by the federal government. And the money comes from everyone who either signs on, or if they make enough money and wish to, pays a special tax to opt out of all health insurance. This is a compromise. A compromise that wasn't made for Social Security, and later wasn't made for Medicare.

It's mostly a "concept" that disturbs some: that they are "forced to buy" something. If we had single-payer, it wouldn't be an issue to discuss. But we can't have that in these times, in this country, because the paranoia about "communism" is possibly worse than it was in the early 1950s during the McCarthy era.

I am not entirely certain how we got to this place, but we did. It's a heck of a long story. Instead of living by the credo that a "Government of the People, by the People, for the People, Shall Not Perish from the Earth" the United States of America embraced "The age of Big Government Is Over." In other words, every man for himself. It wasn't a Republican who put forward the latter slogan, and the consequences of bowing to voter fears are felt even more keenly than 17 years ago, during an election campaign. There is more irrational fear now than during the Cold War, and even more than during the height of the Cold War.

I will say that using a genuine deceased child as a pawn in a peaceful and practical argument over a practical matter is more than a bit over-the-top. Is it being suggested that those of us who will benefit from the ACA are benefiting at the expense of this family of a dead child? Is that what's being suggested? Because if it is, some of us might be seriously offended: you are using one family's personal tragedy (with dubious logic, I might add) against the needs of millions to affordable health care. Somehow, because this family experienced a great tragedy, their opposition to paying a tax (or buying more affordable insurance) is validated by that tragedy. It doesn't surprise me, but it does offend me. This is precisely how demagoguery works, how politicians use fear and exploitation as a tactic, and it is a learned tactic. Using a deceased child in the service of a logical fallacy is classic demagoguery.

Here's just one look at it: http://demagogy.askdefine.com/

rjm