Off Topic Messages

What Kind of Downloading Is WRONG?

Tue Sep 17, 2013 11:30 am

This is STRICTLY THEORETICAL! NOTHING TO DO WITH ANY ACTIONS TAKEN IN THE REAL WORLD. Just a thought-experiment. Let's be clear on that.

It is, of course, illegal and WRONG to download official, legal releases of recordings. That is counterfeiting. That's clear, and I am not asking about that! That's not on the table even in this rhetorical discussion.

But what about "imports"? Those are on the table for discussion here. Who thinks that is wrong, and why? I know that certain bootleggers make "some pretty good stuff" and work hard. But the tapes are often of unknown origin. So, is that wrong? In the same way? Or is it okay?

I honestly don't know. There is often a lust for unreleased material, and sometimes you want to "chop down the cherry tree." And don't want to admit it. But, I am not being George Washington; no trees were harmed in the creation of this topic.

Tell me who gets harmed in downloading "imports." The songwriters don't get paid when you *buy* these, right? So, if it's offered up as a gift somewhere, somewhen, who exactly gets hurt? I am not talking about official releases or counterfeits of any kind, shape or form. Just totally unreleased "imports." {wink}

I don't wanna start any wars, dig? I just want your opinion and any information that I might lack.

Please be gentle!

rjm

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Re: What Kind of Downloading Is WRONG?

Tue Sep 17, 2013 11:53 am

Here in Holland downloading is NOT illegal as long as it is for personal use.
So I can download any movie or music and watch and listen myself.
However, I am NOT allowed to copy this for friends, even for free.
Whether it is morally right is another subject.

Do I download? Yes, quite a lot.
The music I have on LP's and CD's I download as MP3's so I can listen to the music on an MP3-player while walking around town.
It saves me ripping the CD's or recording the LP's.

Downloading computer-programms and games is illegal, though.
I buy programms I need but I always look for a free version first.
I have several versions of Magix Audio Cleaning Lab including the latest one.
But their website maker programm is rubbish and a waste of money.
Have not found a good website maker programm yet.
(Had one years ago but that was for Windows 98 and although I got a bug-fix so it could be used on Windows XP, I still needed to install IE 5.5 for it to work and I can not find IE 5.5 anymore)

Re: What Kind of Downloading Is WRONG?

Tue Sep 17, 2013 12:12 pm

Legal? So, no ITunes in Holland? Hmmm.

Anyway, I am referring to boots.
rjm

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Re: What Kind of Downloading Is WRONG?

Tue Sep 17, 2013 12:22 pm

We have iTunes.
People can choose whether they buy from iTunes or download for free elsewhere.
I have no iTunes on my PC as I hate that programm. Too pushy.

As for bootlegs, you always buy or download stolen property.
Main fault is RCA's "the key to the tapesvault is under the doormat" policy.
Then there's the 50 years old so public domain law (which used to be 25 years old in Denmark but changed thanks to pressure from RCA who saw the market flooded with all sorts of Elvis compilations from 1982 onwards) which results in all sorts of compilations for very little money.

Re: What Kind of Downloading Is WRONG?

Tue Sep 17, 2013 12:44 pm

So, any boot of unreleased stuff is stolen property? So, even if you pay, it's still stolen? Hmmm.

rjm

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Re: What Kind of Downloading Is WRONG?

Tue Sep 17, 2013 12:49 pm

Bootleggers make such a big deal about the fact that they only press up titles in limited numbers. A figure of 500 is usually tossed around, and that number was consistent long before downloading took hold in a big way, therefore downloading has not in any way resulted in a loss of revenue for the bootleggers. I would therefore draw the conclusion that the only people who download bootlegs, are the ones who would not have bought them in the first place. That definitely holds true for me, and seeing as we're talking about a product which in most countries is illegal to begin with, I can't in all honesty see the problem.

Re: What Kind of Downloading Is WRONG?

Tue Sep 17, 2013 5:20 pm

rjm wrote:So, any boot of unreleased stuff is stolen property? So, even if you pay, it's still stolen? Hmmm.

rjm

Sent From My Phabulous Galaxy Note II Phablet Using Tapatalk 4


The only company who can legally release Elvis' music is his official record label RCA-Victor or any label that buys the rights from RCA-Victor to release certain songs.
Follow That Dream is an official affiliate of RCA-Victor.

Re: What Kind of Downloading Is WRONG?

Tue Sep 17, 2013 7:53 pm

That's right, zolder. All bootlegs are stolen goods - although it's worth mentioning that Public Domain labels can release certain material in Europe legally. But yes, essentially, bootleggers are stealing material from Sony, even if they pay Mr X for his soundboard tape. The tape might have belonged to Mr X, but the music on it does not, that belongs to Sony.

As for when it's right to download? Well, that depends on our own moral compass and our own conscience. I confess that I download from other film collectors all the time. Why? Well, silent films after 1923 are bound up in copyright (or many are), but the studios want nothing to do with them and will never release them and therefore I see nothing wrong with downloading a copy of the film taped from TV in Russia in 1985 (or wherever these copies come from, but mostly TV). Do I download material legally available? No. So, in other words, I am downloading material that is copyright, but my own conscience tells me that I'm not depriving a company or individuals of money they are trying to make from such a film, because the film is not commercial enough or in good enough to condition for them to make money from it.

That's my own personal stance on why I download certain items - but I'm sure everyone has their own position.

Re: What Kind of Downloading Is WRONG?

Tue Sep 17, 2013 11:07 pm

That's pretty much it. That's kind of how I feel. I have never gotten a film that way, but these are different types of films, of course.

I just think about those who do the various levels of "scut-work": the cover art and notes, and the manufacturing workers who press the plastic, make the covers, etc. If I don't pay the boot-label, who pays them? That's my only ethical misgivings. Also, we want them to keep making them.

But when you think about it, how can you steal stolen property? (Well, possession is illegal, but with totally unavailable material - THAT MAY NEVER BE AVAILABLE, there's not much difference there, ethically.)

Sure, we eventuality got the Burbank Sessions, legally. But way back when, Audifon provided it, and it was a dream come true! I would have a dilemma today about that, because it was such an important group of recordings! And I was so grateful. Joan Deary really didn't give a dang about them! So, I would want to compensate Audifon under those circumstances. It's kinda different today.

There are other examples with other artists.

rjm

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Re: What Kind of Downloading Is WRONG?

Tue Sep 17, 2013 11:13 pm

So lets throw this in the mix. How is our moral compass on downloading an FTD that you have bought, but are waiting to receive in the mail. A new FTD takes seemingly forever to arrive from Shop Elvis, but you can listen to it in 5 minutes depending on your internet connection. Of course, I'm asking for a friend of mine that I know - wink.

Re: What Kind of Downloading Is WRONG?

Tue Sep 17, 2013 11:14 pm

I don't download music, I'm an old-school, fixed-media kind of guy -- but if I did I would do it legally, by purchasing the item first.

Re: What Kind of Downloading Is WRONG?

Tue Sep 17, 2013 11:18 pm

WMarkJ wrote:So lets throw this in the mix. How is our moral compass on downloading an FTD that you have bought, but are waiting to receive in the mail. A new FTD takes seemingly forever to arrive from Shop Elvis, but you can listen to it in 5 minutes depending on your internet connection.


Well, Amazon has "auto-rip" while you are waiting for your physical purchase, so if you have purchased it, what would be wrong?

FTD should initiate a digital lossless plus digital booklet format for legal download, for purchase. Like with HD Tracks. I wish they would.

rjm

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Re: What Kind of Downloading Is WRONG?

Tue Sep 17, 2013 11:19 pm

WMarkJ wrote:So lets throw this in the mix. How is our moral compass on downloading an FTD that you have bought, but are waiting to receive in the mail. A new FTD takes seemingly forever to arrive from Shop Elvis, but you can listen to it in 5 minutes depending on your internet connection. Of course, I'm asking for a friend of mine that I know - wink.


I would never do this.

Re: What Kind of Downloading Is WRONG?

Wed Sep 18, 2013 1:29 am

rjm wrote:That's pretty much it. That's kind of how I feel. I have never gotten a film that way, but these are different types of films, of course.

I just think about those who do the various levels of "scut-work": the cover art and notes, and the manufacturing workers who press the plastic, make the covers, etc. If I don't pay the boot-label, who pays them? That's my only ethical misgivings. Also, we want them to keep making them.

But when you think about it, how can you steal stolen property? (Well, possession is illegal, but with totally unavailable material - THAT MAY NEVER BE AVAILABLE, there's not much difference there, ethically.)

Sure, we eventuality got the Burbank Sessions, legally. But way back when, Audifon provided it, and it was a dream come true! I would have a dilemma today about that, because it was such an important group of recordings! And I was so grateful. Joan Deary really didn't give a dang about them! So, I would want to compensate Audifon under those circumstances. It's kinda different today.

There are other examples with other artists.

rjm

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I317 using Tapatalk 4


The problem with the arguments about Elvis bootlegs is that there is now no need for anyone to support bootleg label. We have our own collectors label and, frankly, anyone who can't copy with 12-15 hours of new material per year and feel they need more really has a problem. twenty years ago, people would have given their eye teeth for that sort of quantity of new material, but people want more and more. If and when FTD ends, you can be pretty sure that its demise was speeded up by the amount of material on bootlegs. FTD was created to combat bootlegs, but fans refused to have one or the other, they wanted both. While FTD has its faults (for example, the people behind it can't count to 20 on a surprising number of track listings) we are basically kicking a gift horse in the mouth by buying bootlegs. If Sony was sitting on Elvis material and refusing to release any of it, my view would be different with regards to the supporting of bootleg releases - but that is not the case. We are bloody lucky, but too many people want everything. Now. And that's quite sad.

Re: What Kind of Downloading Is WRONG?

Wed Sep 18, 2013 1:53 am

poormadpeter wrote:
rjm wrote:That's pretty much it. That's kind of how I feel. I have never gotten a film that way, but these are different types of films, of course.

I just think about those who do the various levels of "scut-work": the cover art and notes, and the manufacturing workers who press the plastic, make the covers, etc. If I don't pay the boot-label, who pays them? That's my only ethical misgivings. Also, we want them to keep making them.

But when you think about it, how can you steal stolen property? (Well, possession is illegal, but with totally unavailable material - THAT MAY NEVER BE AVAILABLE, there's not much difference there, ethically.)

Sure, we eventuality got the Burbank Sessions, legally. But way back when, Audifon provided it, and it was a dream come true! I would have a dilemma today about that, because it was such an important group of recordings! And I was so grateful. Joan Deary really didn't give a dang about them! So, I would want to compensate Audifon under those circumstances. It's kinda different today.

There are other examples with other artists.

rjm

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I317 using Tapatalk 4


The problem with the arguments about Elvis bootlegs is that there is now no need for anyone to support bootleg label. We have our own collectors label and, frankly, anyone who can't copy with 12-15 hours of new material per year and feel they need more really has a problem. twenty years ago, people would have given their eye teeth for that sort of quantity of new material, but people want more and more. If and when FTD ends, you can be pretty sure that its demise was speeded up by the amount of material on bootlegs. FTD was created to combat bootlegs, but fans refused to have one or the other, they wanted both. While FTD has its faults (for example, the people behind it can't count to 20 on a surprising number of track listings) we are basically kicking a gift horse in the mouth by buying bootlegs. If Sony was sitting on Elvis material and refusing to release any of it, my view would be different with regards to the supporting of bootleg releases - but that is not the case. We are bloody lucky, but too many people want everything. Now. And that's quite sad.


Just curious, how many FTDs you get a year, on average?

Re: What Kind of Downloading Is WRONG?

Wed Sep 18, 2013 2:30 am

drjohncarpenter wrote:
poormadpeter wrote:
rjm wrote:That's pretty much it. That's kind of how I feel. I have never gotten a film that way, but these are different types of films, of course.

I just think about those who do the various levels of "scut-work": the cover art and notes, and the manufacturing workers who press the plastic, make the covers, etc. If I don't pay the boot-label, who pays them? That's my only ethical misgivings. Also, we want them to keep making them.

But when you think about it, how can you steal stolen property? (Well, possession is illegal, but with totally unavailable material - THAT MAY NEVER BE AVAILABLE, there's not much difference there, ethically.)

Sure, we eventuality got the Burbank Sessions, legally. But way back when, Audifon provided it, and it was a dream come true! I would have a dilemma today about that, because it was such an important group of recordings! And I was so grateful. Joan Deary really didn't give a dang about them! So, I would want to compensate Audifon under those circumstances. It's kinda different today.

There are other examples with other artists.

rjm

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I317 using Tapatalk 4


The problem with the arguments about Elvis bootlegs is that there is now no need for anyone to support bootleg label. We have our own collectors label and, frankly, anyone who can't copy with 12-15 hours of new material per year and feel they need more really has a problem. twenty years ago, people would have given their eye teeth for that sort of quantity of new material, but people want more and more. If and when FTD ends, you can be pretty sure that its demise was speeded up by the amount of material on bootlegs. FTD was created to combat bootlegs, but fans refused to have one or the other, they wanted both. While FTD has its faults (for example, the people behind it can't count to 20 on a surprising number of track listings) we are basically kicking a gift horse in the mouth by buying bootlegs. If Sony was sitting on Elvis material and refusing to release any of it, my view would be different with regards to the supporting of bootleg releases - but that is not the case. We are bloody lucky, but too many people want everything. Now. And that's quite sad.


Just curious, how many FTDs you get a year, on average?


Just curious, why does it matter? When I buy Elvis material, I support Sony and not bootleggers. That's all that counts.

Re: What Kind of Downloading Is WRONG?

Wed Sep 18, 2013 3:28 am

Clear this up for me please:

The link for the boot or FTD is right there to click on. If you are not going to buy the CD or DVD, and you do not click on it:

Net profit for owner of CD/DVD: Zero
Net loss for owner of CD/DVD: Zero

Or:
The link for the boot or FTD is right there to click on. If you are not going to buy the CD or DVD, and you DO click on it:

Net profit for owner of CD/DVD: Zero
Net loss for owner of CD/DVD: Zero

Its right there on the internet to click on. Others around the world are clicking. Its right there whether you click or not. The only one that loses if you do not click is you, right?

Re: What Kind of Downloading Is WRONG?

Wed Sep 18, 2013 3:50 am

WMarkJ wrote:Clear this up for me please:

The link for the boot or FTD is right there to click on. If you are not going to buy the CD or DVD, and you do not click on it:

Net profit for owner of CD/DVD: Zero
Net loss for owner of CD/DVD: Zero

Or:
The link for the boot or FTD is right there to click on. If you are not going to buy the CD or DVD, and you DO click on it:

Net profit for owner of CD/DVD: Zero
Net loss for owner of CD/DVD: Zero

Its right there on the internet to click on. Others around the world are clicking. Its right there whether you click or not. The only one that loses if you do not click is you, right?


It's not really a case of who does and doesn't lose. Your download is then helping to distribute that product around the web, especially if it's a torrent, so you are then helping to give away your stolen goods. In the end, just because you weren't going to buy a product anyway doesn't mean you should then steal it.

Re: What Kind of Downloading Is WRONG?

Wed Sep 18, 2013 3:56 am

Yes, FTD provides more than enough material. But certain things will NEVER be officially released, yet tapes were played for book authors. And "transcribed." And sometimes there would be two different transcriptions!

So, I would like to hear such recordings for myself, *without* the "general public" hearing something they do not have the context to understand.

This applies as much to "Apollo 13" ;) as to "Man In The Moon." And other, less controversial stuff.

rjm

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Last edited by rjm on Wed Sep 18, 2013 4:31 am, edited 2 times in total.

Re: What Kind of Downloading Is WRONG?

Wed Sep 18, 2013 4:05 am

poormadpeter wrote:
WMarkJ wrote:Clear this up for me please:

The link for the boot or FTD is right there to click on. If you are not going to buy the CD or DVD, and you do not click on it:

Net profit for owner of CD/DVD: Zero
Net loss for owner of CD/DVD: Zero

Or:
The link for the boot or FTD is right there to click on. If you are not going to buy the CD or DVD, and you DO click on it:

Net profit for owner of CD/DVD: Zero
Net loss for owner of CD/DVD: Zero

Its right there on the internet to click on. Others around the world are clicking. Its right there whether you click or not. The only one that loses if you do not click is you, right?


It's not really a case of who does and doesn't lose. Your download is then helping to distribute that product around the web, especially if it's a torrent, so you are then helping to give away your stolen goods. In the end, just because you weren't going to buy a product anyway doesn't mean you should then steal it.
I'm talking about from the standpoint of the downloader, not the uploader. How is my downloading what someone else has uploaded hurting anyone. I grant you the uploader has done something wrong.

Re: What Kind of Downloading Is WRONG?

Wed Sep 18, 2013 4:07 am

poormadpeter wrote
We have our own collectors label and, frankly, anyone who can't copy with 12-15 hours of new material per year and feel they need more really has a problem


Really ? As problems go an Elvis fan wanting more Elvis material doesn't even register as a problem in my view.


norrie

Re: What Kind of Downloading Is WRONG?

Wed Sep 18, 2013 4:22 am

WMarkJ wrote:Clear this up for me please:

The link for the boot or FTD is right there to click on. If you are not going to buy the CD or DVD, and you do not click on it:

Net profit for owner of CD/DVD: Zero
Net loss for owner of CD/DVD: Zero

Or:
The link for the boot or FTD is right there to click on. If you are not going to buy the CD or DVD, and you DO click on it:

Net profit for owner of CD/DVD: Zero
Net loss for owner of CD/DVD: Zero

Its right there on the internet to click on. Others around the world are clicking. Its right there whether you click or not. The only one that loses if you do not click is you, right?


If you didn't want it, why look for it?
So, you would buy it, "if affordable." But, until we live in a society without money, that's stealing - I refer to the legal product.

rjm

Sent From My Phabulous Galaxy Note II Phablet Using Tapatalk 4

Re: What Kind of Downloading Is WRONG?

Wed Sep 18, 2013 4:39 am

rjm wrote:
WMarkJ wrote:Clear this up for me please:

The link for the boot or FTD is right there to click on. If you are not going to buy the CD or DVD, and you do not click on it:

Net profit for owner of CD/DVD: Zero
Net loss for owner of CD/DVD: Zero

Or:
The link for the boot or FTD is right there to click on. If you are not going to buy the CD or DVD, and you DO click on it:

Net profit for owner of CD/DVD: Zero
Net loss for owner of CD/DVD: Zero

Its right there on the internet to click on. Others around the world are clicking. Its right there whether you click or not. The only one that loses if you do not click is you, right?


If you didn't want it, why look for it?
So, you would buy it, "if affordable." But, until we live in a society without money, that's stealing - I refer to the legal product.

rjm

Sent From My Phabulous Galaxy Note II Phablet Using Tapatalk 4
ypu don't have to look top hard. It's right there, you're only cheating yourself if you don't click. I know I'm repeating myself at this point.

Re: What Kind of Downloading Is WRONG?

Wed Sep 18, 2013 4:43 am

rjm wrote:Yes, FTD provides more than enough material. But certain things will NEVER be officially released, yet tapes were played for book authors. And "transcribed." And sometimes there would be two different transcriptions!

So, I would like to hear such recordings for myself, *without* the "general public" hearing something they do not have the context to understand.

This applies as much to "Apollo 13" ;) as to "Man In The Moon." And other, less controversial stuff.

rjm

Sent From My Phabulous Galaxy Note II Phablet Using Tapatalk 4


While we might like to hear something that exists that doesn't mean we have a right to - in the same way that, just because outtakes of EOT exist, we don't have a right to expect them on DVD. Twenty years ago many people on this board would have been literally orgasming at the thought of what we have had given to us over the last fourteen or so years from FTD. But now we have it people are just interested in getting hold of the stuff they can't have. To be frank, it's both ridiculous and greedy. The material doesn't belong to us. Buying bootlegs equate to buying stolen goods. Fifteen years ago we could justify it perhaps, but now? No.

Re: What Kind of Downloading Is WRONG?

Wed Sep 18, 2013 4:47 am

poormadpeter wrote:
rjm wrote:Yes, FTD provides more than enough material. But certain things will NEVER be officially released, yet tapes were played for book authors. And "transcribed." And sometimes there would be two different transcriptions!

So, I would like to hear such recordings for myself, *without* the "general public" hearing something they do not have the context to understand.

This applies as much to "Apollo 13" ;) as to "Man In The Moon." And other, less controversial stuff.

rjm

Sent From My Phabulous Galaxy Note II Phablet Using Tapatalk 4


While we might like to hear something that exists that doesn't mean we have a right to - in the same way that, just because outtakes of EOT exist, we don't have a right to expect them on DVD. Twenty years ago many people on this board would have been literally orgasming at the thought of what we have had given to us over the last fourteen or so years from FTD. But now we have it people are just interested in getting hold of the stuff they can't have. To be frank, it's both ridiculous and greedy. The material doesn't belong to us. Buying bootlegs equate to buying stolen goods. Fifteen years ago we could justify it perhaps, but now? No.


Unless it's a silent film you don't own,then it's different