Off Topic Messages

Re: Gun-sale checks rejected in USA

Fri Apr 19, 2013 7:57 pm

Some folks need a history lesson. Why do you think America is a free country? Go back a couple of hundred years and examine how we became free. The 2nd amendment was not created to protect hunters. It's there to keep government in check. I don't belong to the NRA myself. I think they are unreasonable on many issues. I do own many guns. I grew up with them. Hunting and shooting is a way of life for me. I have had a background check for every one of them. I think background checks are a good thing. I think many people have this weird idea that buying a gun is like buying a loaf of bread.Its not. We already have so many laws when it does to guns. Law abiding people like me follow the rules. The reason te bill didn't pass is because contrary to what the media tells you,the majority of the people know we already have enough laws. The NRA was not the only reason the bill failed. You guys on this board probably don't have a clue what the atmosphere in this country is right now concerning guns. You can't walk into a gunshop and find any ammo.Its all gone.The guns are gone.The general public is buying eveyrthing at a record pace out of fear. Guns are an integral part of this country. We need to look at our judicial system to bring gun deaths down.Guys like me who own many guns are not the problem.

Re: Gun-sale checks rejected in USA

Fri Apr 19, 2013 8:03 pm

I'm a tax-paying, law-abiding American citizen who grew up around gun owners.

The NRA lobby is far and away the #1 reason gun control bills are killed in Congress. It's shameful.

An average citizen should not be allowed to purchase or possess weapons of war. Period.

Re: Gun-sale checks rejected in USA

Fri Apr 19, 2013 8:22 pm

Doc
The main reason the bill failed was due to the will of the people who live in the heartland of this country. The more rural states in the country were totally against the bill. None of the states like Wyoming or Montana along with so many others wanted nothing to do with the bill. That's why it failed.
Another point. The bill had nothing to do with weapons of war. The focal point of that term is the AR-15. It's not even an assault weapon. It's just a semi automatic rifle that looks ominous to people. It's not a military weapon. To buy a weapon of war you have to get a class 3 stamp which costs hundreds.You have to supply two passport photos. You have several months of waiting for the BATF to do their check. You're local law enforcement must be notified. You just don't see those Gus on the street. The entire assault weapon thing is a myth. Assault weapons are capable of full auto and select fire.The evil looking rifle you see on tv all the time is not a weapon of war.Obviuosly it's a deadly weapon as is any gun.I still say we have a people problem more than a gun problem.I live in the country.Everybody has guns here.I couldn't tell you when we had a murder.We don't shoot each other with them.

Re: Gun-sale checks rejected in USA

Fri Apr 19, 2013 8:34 pm

jak wrote:Doc
The main reason the bill failed was due to the will of the people who live in the heartland of this country. The more rural states in the country were totally against the bill. None of the states like Wyoming or Montana along with so many others wanted nothing to do with the bill. That's why it failed.
Another point. The bill had nothing to do with weapons of war. The focal point of that term is the AR-15. It's not even an assault weapon. It's just a semi automatic rifle that looks ominous to people. It's not a military weapon. To buy a weapon of war you have to get a class 3 stamp which costs hundreds.You have to supply two passport photos. You have several months of waiting for the BATF to do their check. You're local law enforcement must be notified. You just don't see those Gus on the street. The entire assault weapon thing is a myth. Assault weapons are capable of full auto and select fire.The evil looking rifle you see on tv all the time is not a weapon of war.Obviuosly it's a deadly weapon as is any gun.I still say we have a people problem more than a gun problem.I live in the country.Everybody has guns here.I couldn't tell you when we had a murder.We don't shoot each other with them.


Jak, I too am a gun owner. But with all due respect, while an AR-15 (and the various copies) aren't weapons of war, they do have the quick chambering internal mechanism as well as the high-round capacity, quick-loading clips. It's those two features that make them much more capable of killing large numbers of people in a short amount of time than a limited round capacity rifle or shotgun. Having said that, I'm not sure out & out banning is the answer as prohibition will only cause the black market to thrive - and there's no background checks on the black market. But at the very least, we should be trying to come up with a means to ensure that people with serious mental issues can't legally purchase these weapons.
Last edited by Pete Dube on Fri Apr 19, 2013 8:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Re: Gun-sale checks rejected in USA

Fri Apr 19, 2013 8:40 pm

Pete Dube wrote:Jak, I too am a gun owner. But with all due respect, while an AR-15 (and the various copies) aren't weapons of war, they do have the quick chambering internal mechanism as well as the capacity for high-round capacity, quick-loading clips. It's those two features that make them much capable of killing large numbers of people in a short amount of time.


Exactly. It's not "just like any gun."

And no average citizen, let alone mentally ill people, should have access to such weapons. Period.

Re: Gun-sale checks rejected in USA

Fri Apr 19, 2013 8:43 pm

drjohncarpenter wrote:
Pete Dube wrote:Jak, I too am a gun owner. But with all due respect, while an AR-15 (and the various copies) aren't weapons of war, they do have the quick chambering internal mechanism as well as the capacity for high-round capacity, quick-loading clips. It's those two features that make them much capable of killing large numbers of people in a short amount of time.


Exactly. It's not "just like any gun."

And no average citizen, let alone mentally ill people, should have access to such weapons. Period.


Doc, I'm not a fan of the semi's, but please see my comment about the black market on my previous (edited) post.

Re: Gun-sale checks rejected in USA

Fri Apr 19, 2013 8:58 pm

The AR-15 is a civilian weapon. You can buy them anywhere. It's just a semi automatic rifle. Just because companies make high capacity mags for it does not set it apart. I can buy a high capacity mag for any rifle. The reason you hear about that weapon is because its popular. I have owned them myself. It's cheap to shoot. People love this gun as a recreational gun.This gun is demonized by those who don't really have an extensive knowledge of guns.The majority of people are killed with handguns in this country.Yet it's always the AR-15 that gets talked about,I can buy 33rd clips for my Glock handgun.I wish people just had more knowledge about guns when they talk about banning them.Im guessing most people here don't realize the caliber of that weapon is weaker than any deer rifle.Its not even legal to hunt deer with.Yes it's deadly in the wrong hands.Im just trying to put it in perspective.

Re: Gun-sale checks rejected in USA

Fri Apr 19, 2013 9:14 pm

While laws are necessary and as I stated earlier I am very disappointed in the governments decision this week, this truth remains. Unless people stop hating each other for whatever reason, senseless forms of evil and expressions of evil will continue. The "change" must come from within.

rlj

Re: Gun-sale checks rejected in USA

Fri Apr 19, 2013 9:20 pm

rlj4ep wrote:While laws are necessary and as I stated earlier I am very disappointed in the governments decision this week, this truth remains. Unless people stop hating each other for whatever reason, senseless forms of evil and expressions of evil will continue. The "change" must come from within.

rlj


Correct.

Re: Gun-sale checks rejected in USA

Fri Apr 19, 2013 9:20 pm

jak wrote:The AR-15 is a civilian weapon. You can buy them anywhere. It's just a semi automatic rifle. Just because companies make high capacity mags for it does not set it apart. I can buy a high capacity mag for any rifle. The reason you hear about that weapon is because its popular. I have owned them myself. It's cheap to shoot. People love this gun as a recreational gun.This gun is demonized by those who don't really have an extensive knowledge of guns.The majority of people are killed with handguns in this country.Yet it's always the AR-15 that gets talked about,I can buy 33rd clips for my Glock handgun.I wish people just had more knowledge about guns when they talk about banning them.Im guessing most people here don't realize the caliber of that weapon is weaker than any deer rifle.Its not even legal to hunt deer with.Yes it's deadly in the wrong hands.Im just trying to put it in perspective.


But Jak, I do know something about guns, and I also know that those kids in the Newtown school and the people in the Aurora movie theater and the students at Virginia Tech weren't slaughtered by a deer rifle, but by auto-chambering, high round capacity semis capable of firing a round as fast as you can pull the trigger. If a deer rifle had been used there would've been a lot less slaughter.

Re: Gun-sale checks rejected in USA

Fri Apr 19, 2013 9:23 pm

rlj4ep wrote:While laws are necessary and as I stated earlier I am very disappointed in the governments decision this week, this truth remains. Unless people stop hating each other for whatever reason, senseless forms of evil and expressions of evil will continue. The "change" must come from within.

rlj


A nice sentiment, but it doesn't address the mentally deranged.

Re: Gun-sale checks rejected in USA

Fri Apr 19, 2013 10:06 pm

Pete Dube wrote:
rlj4ep wrote:While laws are necessary and as I stated earlier I am very disappointed in the governments decision this week, this truth remains. Unless people stop hating each other for whatever reason, senseless forms of evil and expressions of evil will continue. The "change" must come from within.

rlj


A nice sentiment, but it doesn't address the mentally deranged.


No, it doesn't. But let's also mention here that something else needs to happen alongside the changes to the gun laws: America has to start talking about mental health issues. And soon. While there have been efforts in the UK to attempt to normalise mental illness through ad campaigns and suchlike, my understanding is that mental health issues are still very much a cause of stigma in society in America. If the mentally ill, or the families of the mentally ill, felt that they could "come out" (for want of a better term), admit they have a problem and seek help without being ostracised, then more people would get treatment and less people would be a danger. And Pete, speaking as someone who fall into that category of having mental health issues (albeit relatively minor in comparison to many who have gotten hold of guns), terms like "mentally deranged" really don't help with that issue.

The issue of guns and background checks are important - but the movement towards acceptance of, and treatment of, mental illness and the movement away from thinking anyone with a mental health problem is "deranged" or a "loony" has to go hand in hand with that.

Re: Gun-sale checks rejected in USA

Fri Apr 19, 2013 10:13 pm

iplayastrat wrote:I'm proud of my country. After the President paraded around the families
(who have every right to feel the way they do) for political purposes, we had
brave enough men and women to reject those polices that dare to take away
our freedom.

I do wish common sense could work. But that's not going to happen from
either side. I felt I was in the middle of this issue, but the more I hear from
liberals the more I realize they don't want common sense answers to our "gun
problem". Their overreaching is what is leading myself and others to the NRA's
side. For the first time in my life I'm considering becoming an official member.


Yeah...Obama 'paraded' the Newtown families around. Let me ask you something? What does Barack Obama have to gain by 'parading' the familes of victims of gun violence? Please tell me.

Please define 'overreaching'. I suppose in your definition it's supports the gun enthusiasts philosophy of 'they're going to take our guns away'. If there were something in place that did take your guns away I would agree that that would be 'overreaching'. But here it is plain and simply: there are TOO MANY guns out there and the reason beind that is because the restrictions on ownership have been weak. If you're a law abiding sane gun owner, nobody wants your gun, okay? There needs to be tighter policy on how these weapons get out there. What the HELL is so wrong with that?

Re: Gun-sale checks rejected in USA

Fri Apr 19, 2013 10:23 pm

Pete Dube wrote:
jak wrote:The AR-15 is a civilian weapon. You can buy them anywhere. It's just a semi automatic rifle. Just because companies make high capacity mags for it does not set it apart. I can buy a high capacity mag for any rifle. The reason you hear about that weapon is because its popular. I have owned them myself. It's cheap to shoot. People love this gun as a recreational gun.This gun is demonized by those who don't really have an extensive knowledge of guns.The majority of people are killed with handguns in this country.Yet it's always the AR-15 that gets talked about,I can buy 33rd clips for my Glock handgun.I wish people just had more knowledge about guns when they talk about banning them.Im guessing most people here don't realize the caliber of that weapon is weaker than any deer rifle.Its not even legal to hunt deer with.Yes it's deadly in the wrong hands.Im just trying to put it in perspective.


But Jak, I do know something about guns, and I also know that those kids in the Newtown school and the people in the Aurora movie theater and the students at Virginia Tech weren't slaughtered by a deer rifle, but by auto-chambering, high round capacity semis capable of firing a round as fast as you can pull the trigger. If a deer rifle had been used there would've been a lot less slaughter.


Pete
What If a Browning Bar or a Bennelli had been used? Both are semi auto deer rifles capable of firing as fast as you can pull the trigger.There are many others as well.These deer weapons are much more lethal.Were talking 30-06 caliber in a semi auto.I have shot antelope and deer with 30-06.The 223 caliber of the AR-15 doesn't even come close.Im just trying to stress the AR-15 is not the evil killing machine it's made out to be.The AR-15 is just one type of semi auto.Dozens and dozens of guns are semi auto.

Re: Gun-sale checks rejected in USA

Sat Apr 20, 2013 3:12 am

poormadpeter wrote:No, it doesn't. But let's also mention here that something else needs to happen alongside the changes to the gun laws: America has to start talking about mental health issues. And soon. While there have been efforts in the UK to attempt to normalise mental illness through ad campaigns and suchlike, my understanding is that mental health issues are still very much a cause of stigma in society in America. If the mentally ill, or the families of the mentally ill, felt that they could "come out" (for want of a better term), admit they have a problem and seek help without being ostracised, then more people would get treatment and less people would be a danger. And Pete, speaking as someone who fall into that category of having mental health issues (albeit relatively minor in comparison to many who have gotten hold of guns), terms like "mentally deranged" really don't help with that issue.

The issue of guns and background checks are important - but the movement towards acceptance of, and treatment of, mental illness and the movement away from thinking anyone with a mental health problem is "deranged" or a "loony" has to go hand in hand with that.


Peter, it was not my intention to suggest that anybody with mental health issues is deranged. I should not have put the two words together. I should've just wrote deranged. When I write a post on my work computer I get a 10 minute window before I get timed out, so I tend to write things very quickly. If you were offended, please accept my apology.

Re: Gun-sale checks rejected in USA

Sat Apr 20, 2013 3:18 am

jak wrote: Pete
What If a Browning Bar or a Bennelli had been used? Both are semi auto deer rifles capable of firing as fast as you can pull the trigger.There are many others as well.These deer weapons are much more lethal.Were talking 30-06 caliber in a semi auto.I have shot antelope and deer with 30-06.The 223 caliber of the AR-15 doesn't even come close.Im just trying to stress the AR-15 is not the evil killing machine it's made out to be.The AR-15 is just one type of semi auto.Dozens and dozens of guns are semi auto.


Fair point Jak, but do the Browning and the Bennelli have clip capacities in the 30-50 round range?

Re: Gun-sale checks rejected in USA

Sat Apr 20, 2013 3:37 am

Pete Dube wrote:
jak wrote: Pete
What If a Browning Bar or a Bennelli had been used? Both are semi auto deer rifles capable of firing as fast as you can pull the trigger.There are many others as well.These deer weapons are much more lethal.Were talking 30-06 caliber in a semi auto.I have shot antelope and deer with 30-06.The 223 caliber of the AR-15 doesn't even come close.Im just trying to stress the AR-15 is not the evil killing machine it's made out to be.The AR-15 is just one type of semi auto.Dozens and dozens of guns are semi auto.


Fair point Jak, but do the Browning and the Bennelli have clip capacities in the 30-50 round range?[/quote

Pete
I think you can get 20 round mags for them. I own a Ruger mini 30 ranch rifle in 7.62 x 39 caliber. Much more powerful than the AR-15 and suitable for hunting. A legal deer rifle.I carry it when I walk my property.Thirty round detachable mags are commonplace. They may even make a higher capacity drum type mag for it. The gun is a semi auto and fires fast as you pull the trigger. Im guessing the majority of people here don't have a clue about what Im talking about.The gun just doesn't look as ominous as the AR.The AR looks like a military weapon so everybody freaks out about it.

Re: Gun-sale checks rejected in USA

Sat Apr 20, 2013 9:21 am

drjohncarpenter wrote:
An average citizen should not be allowed to purchase or possess weapons of war. Period.



I think someone asked earlier in this thread to define overreaching. ^^ That would be it.

Re: Gun-sale checks rejected in USA

Sat Apr 20, 2013 11:22 am

jak wrote:The AR-15 is a civilian weapon.


Then we have all gone to hell.

Re: Gun-sale checks rejected in USA

Sat Apr 20, 2013 11:39 am

iplayastrat wrote:
drjohncarpenter wrote:
An average citizen should not be allowed to purchase or possess weapons of war. Period.



I think someone asked earlier in this thread to define overreaching. ^^ That would be it.


Perhaps 'overreacting' would be a better word to use in this context...

Re: Gun-sale checks rejected in USA

Sat Apr 20, 2013 3:27 pm

drjohncarpenter wrote:An average citizen should not be allowed to purchase or possess weapons of war. Period.



No-one should argue with this. Sadly, a majority of American politicians seem to.
Last time I was in the US I was asked by a guy what type of guns I owned. He seemed shocked when I said I had never owned a gun.

Re: Gun-sale checks rejected in USA

Sat Apr 20, 2013 4:28 pm

drjohncarpenter wrote:
jak wrote:The AR-15 is a civilian weapon.


Then we have all gone to hell.


Yep. I just don't understand the US love of guns. The Senate's vote was a disgrace.

Re: Gun-sale checks rejected in USA

Sat Apr 20, 2013 4:55 pm

paulsweeney wrote:
I just don't understand the US love of guns.



If someone broke into your house with a gun - how do you defend yourself and your property?



RKS

Re: Gun-sale checks rejected in USA

Sat Apr 20, 2013 6:06 pm

RKSNASHVILLE wrote:paulsweeney wrote:
I just don't understand the US love of guns.



If someone broke into your house with a gun - how do you defend yourself and your property?
RKS


Well, the answer to that is that most other countries seem to manage in such situations, and so why can't America?

Perhaps America and Americans should be exploring the idea of getting to the root of the problem - which is, quite clearly, why people are breaking into houses with guns in the first place.

In the Uk, for example, very few people die per year as a result of such incidents. In America, where more people own guns, murder via guns is 4000% higher (per 100,000 population) than in the UK where we mostly don't own guns. This in itself should prove that owning guns is clearly not a deterrent or gaining anything.

The idea of owning a gun to protect yourself from intruders, and the idea of putting armed guards outside schools, isn't addressing the problem - it is simply putting a weak sticking plaster over the issue and hoping it will hold. Which it won't.

Re: Gun-sale checks rejected in USA

Sat Apr 20, 2013 6:43 pm

RKSNASHVILLE wrote:paulsweeney wrote:
I just don't understand the US love of guns.



If someone broke into your house with a gun - how do you defend yourself and your property?



RKS


In Canada if someone broke into my house I'd use my hockey stick on them. In fact, they'd also probably have a hockey stick and not a gun, so it would be a fair fight.

In the US breaking into a house with a gun is an issue because you guys have 300 million of the damn things in the hands of your citizens...utter insanity RKS.