Off Topic Messages

New video of Martin Luther King Jr's killer - Elvis link

Sat Apr 06, 2013 6:06 pm

Newly discovered and restored footage showing James Earl Ray being read his rights by Elvis' Shelby County police buddy, Bill Morris, and being processed at Shelby County Jail in July 1968, was released this week.

phpBB [video]


Further information can be found here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-22033212

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Re: New video of Martin Luther King Jr's killer - Elvis link

Sun Apr 07, 2013 6:36 pm

I saw this on tv the other day, would never have known the elvis link, so thank you Garfield :D

Re: New video of Martin Luther King Jr's killer - Elvis link

Sun Apr 07, 2013 7:29 pm

Thanks for posting that... is that redneck piece of trash Ray still alive?

Re: New video of Martin Luther King Jr's killer - Elvis link

Sun Apr 07, 2013 7:40 pm

elvis-fan wrote:Thanks for posting that... is that redneck piece of trash Ray still alive?

No, he died in prison in 1998.

Re: New video of Martin Luther King Jr's killer - Elvis link

Sun Apr 07, 2013 8:03 pm

he died in prison in 1998. If I'm not mistaken he died of cancer.

Re: New video of Martin Luther King Jr's killer - Elvis link

Sun Apr 07, 2013 8:29 pm

Pink&Black wrote:he died in prison in 1998. If I'm not mistaken he died of cancer.


i was wrong, it was Hepatitis C. The strange thing is that the King family felt he had nothing to do with the murder.

Re: New video of Martin Luther King Jr's killer - Elvis link

Mon Apr 08, 2013 1:28 pm

Pink&Black wrote:The strange thing is that the King family felt he had nothing to do with the murder.


Nothing at all strange about it. The King family spoke the truth.

Re: New video of Martin Luther King Jr's killer - Elvis link

Tue Apr 09, 2013 5:55 pm

James Earl Ray was 3 miles away in a bar full of witnesses at the time............You decide if he did it........The same as LHO did he do it......??????

Re: New video of Martin Luther King Jr's killer - Elvis link

Tue Apr 09, 2013 11:34 pm

CONFEDERATELVIS wrote:James Earl Ray was 3 miles away in a bar full of witnesses at the time............You decide if he did it........The same as LHO did he do it......??????


An actual jury - not criminal, but an actual jury ruled just as you said above.

I'll get the link later when I'm on a better device. (This IPad is weird. But the price was right. Didn't cost me nothin.')

The Justice Department said it won't be looking into such cases ANYMORE! {sigh}

Look, they weren't ALL conspiracies of one kind or another, but in this matter, he just didn't do it, and kept insisting so.

Wikipedia wrote:Later developments
In 1997, King's son Dexter met with Ray, and publicly supported his efforts to obtain a retrial. Loyd Jowers, a restaurant owner in Memphis, was brought to civil court and sued as being part of a conspiracy to murder Martin Luther King. Jowers was found legally liable, and the King family accepted $100 in restitution, an amount chosen to show that they were not pursuing the case for financial gain.
Dr. William Pepper, a friend of King in the last year of his life, represented Ray in a televised mock trial in an attempt to get him the trial he never had. Pepper later represented the King family in a wrongful death civil trial against Loyd Jowers. The King family has since concluded that Ray did not have anything to do with the murder of Martin Luther King, Jr.[21]


http://www.nytimes.com/2000/05/23/us/loyd-jowers-73-who-claimed-a-role-in-the-killing-of-dr-king.html


rjm

Re: New video of Martin Luther King Jr's killer - Elvis link

Wed Apr 10, 2013 12:23 pm

CONFEDERATELVIS wrote:James Earl Ray was 3 miles away in a bar full of witnesses at the time............You decide if he did it


If Ray was at a bar with a room full of witnesses, why did he instead claim to be at a gas station getting a flat tire fixed?
http://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/se ... #raysalibi

Re: New video of Martin Luther King Jr's killer - Elvis link

Wed Apr 10, 2013 3:25 pm

rjm wrote:Look, they weren't ALL conspiracies of one kind or another, but in this matter, he just didn't do it, and kept insisting so.

Wikipedia wrote:Later developments
In 1997, King's son Dexter met with Ray, and publicly supported his efforts to obtain a retrial. Loyd Jowers, a restaurant owner in Memphis, was brought to civil court and sued as being part of a conspiracy to murder Martin Luther King. Jowers was found legally liable, and the King family accepted $100 in restitution, an amount chosen to show that they were not pursuing the case for financial gain.
Dr. William Pepper, a friend of King in the last year of his life, represented Ray in a televised mock trial in an attempt to get him the trial he never had. Pepper later represented the King family in a wrongful death civil trial against Loyd Jowers. The King family has since concluded that Ray did not have anything to do with the murder of Martin Luther King, Jr.[21]


rjm



Wiki also notes the following:

The United States Department of Justice published the results of its extensive investigation into Jowers' allegations and concluded that his allegations were not substantiated nor credible and that they found significant evidence to refute those. According to the detailed DOJ report,[2] Jowers has contradicted himself on virtually every key point about the alleged conspiracy:


In these statements, Jowers has repeatedly changed key aspects of his new story, disavowed his confession, and even retreated to his long-standing account of the previous 25 years. For example, he not only identified two different people as the assassin, but also most recently claimed that he saw the assassin and did not recognize him. Jowers also abandoned his initial allegation that he received $100,000 with which he hired a hit man to kill Dr. King, claiming instead that he merely held the money for the conspirators. Additionally, Jowers has been inconsistent about other aspects of the alleged conspiracy, including his role in it, Raoul's responsibilities, whether and how Memphis police officers were involved, and the disposal of the alleged murder weapon.

According to the same report, Jowers initially sought compensation for his story, and his friends and relatives acknowledge that he hoped to make money from his account. He also refused to cooperate with the DOJ investigation. Even though he repeatedly confessed publicly without immunity from prosecution, he was unwilling to provide a final, definitive version of his story in order to be granted immunity by the Department of Justice. Jowers has never made his conspiracy claims under oath according to the report.

In 1998, the King family filed a wrongful death lawsuit against Jowers and "other unknown co-conspirators" for the murder of King. A Memphis jury found Jowers responsible on December 8, 1999, and that the assassination plot contained also "governmental agencies."

The Memphis county prosecutor said on several occasions that Mr. Jowers' claims were without merit and that his motivation was to sell his story for a book or a movie. Both sisters that worked at Jowers' restaurant recanted their support for the case. Their conversation in which the main witness for Jowers admitted that the story was false was taped by the authorities. The sister admitted that Jowers had fabricated the story so he could make $300,000 from selling the story, and she in turn corroborated his story in order to get some money to pay her income tax.



Any thoughts on the overview below? If he is wrong, what is he missing?....
http://www.quora.com/History/Is-there-s ... er-King-Jr

I doubt this answer will sway a committed conspiracy theorist, but the bulk of evidence points to James Earl Ray as the gunman and there is little evidence for a conspiracy.

So let's lay out the various competing claims:

1.James Earl Ray acted alone in the assassination of MLK
2.James Earl Ray was part of a conspiracy to assassinate MLK but was not the trigger man
3.James Earl Ray was the scapegoat of the conspiracy to assassinate MLK

#1 was the conclusion of various government investigations and the trial in which Ray was convicted.[1]

#1, #2 and #3 have been claimed by James Earl Ray himself at different times. Ray confessed to shooting MLK after his arrest and quickly recanted his confession, though he entered a guilty plea at his trial. Later Ray claimed there was a conspiracy and that he may or may not have unwittingly played a part in the assassination at various points over the years.

#3 is the verdict of the verdict of the wrongful death civil lawsuit brought by the King family against Loyd Jowers and unnamed conspirators. Jowers testified that he was part of a conspiracy, that a Memphis police officer was the shooter, that Ray was not involved and was set up as a patsy and that government agencies were involved.

There is a wealth of physical evidence that James Earl Ray fired the single shot that killed Martin Luther King Jr. He purchased the Remington 760 Gamemaster rifle that killed MLK and had it fitted with the 2x7 scope. The rifle was dumped next to the rooming house where Ray had rented a room adjacent to the Lorraine Motel where MLK was shot. Ray's fingerprints were recovered from the rifle and binoculars Ray had purchased the morning of the assassination. James Earl Ray failed two separate lie detector tests when questioned on if he shot MLK. When questioned if he was part of a conspiracy, Ray answered no in both tests; one examiner concluded Ray was lying, in the second test the examiner concluded the results were ambiguous.

On to the claims of Loyd Jowers.

Loyd Jowers owned a diner below the rooming house where Ray shot MLK. Jowers was in the diner, along with 13 other customers, during the shooting. Jowers and all the customers were questioned by Memphis police and the FBI after the assassination.

In 1968, Jowers claimed that he had heard a loud noise from the back of the diner and walked back to the kitchen to investigate, stopping by to chat with a regular customer. The statements from the customers tell much the same story.

Between 1968 and 1993, Jowers figured in none of the conspiracy theories about the assassination.

In 1993, Jowers claimed in an interview with ABC that he was part of the conspiracy to kill MLK and that James Earl Ray was not involved. Jowers implicated a number of co-conspirators, from Memphis police officers to local Mafia figures. It is not accurate to say that Jowers told one consistent story; he changed his story a number of times, changing the cast of characters, the identity of the shooter and the details of events.

Based on Jowers's claims, William Pepper, supported by the King family, brought a wrongful death civil suit against Jowers and unnamed conspirators.

Jowers recited his claims, though with further modifications, which where supported by three witnesses: Betty Spates, James McCraw and John McFerren.

Betty Spates testified that she had seen Jowers emerge after the shooting from the diner kitchen holding a rifle that Jower later told her was the rifle used to kill MLK.

James McCraw was a cab driver who claimed Jowers also showed him the rifle. McCraw claimed to have been sent to the rooming house to pick up a fare and saw the 2nd floor bathroom where Ray shot MLK was empty.

John McFerren claimed that he overheard a local businessman, Frank Liberto, reputedly with Mafia ties, take a phone call from James Earl Ray and ordered him to "shoot the bastard on the balcony" an hour before the assassination.

As a story, it is seemingly coherent and convinced the jury of the civil trial; Jowers was found liable and paid the token compensation of $100 demanded by the King family.

However, the story just doesn't tally with the physical evidence from 1968.

Betty Spates was not among those present in Jowers's diner from whom the police took statements. No other statement supports her version events and all corroborate Jowers's original statement from 1968.

Furthermore, over the years Spates had offered a number of stories about the assassination. She claimed that Jowers had shot MLK (she recanted). She claimed she had seen money Jowers said was for the assassination (she recanted). Finally, when the Memphis district attorneys office was investigating Jowers's claims, she told her sister that Jowers's story and her claims were false and Jowers hoped to get $300,000 for the movie rights to his story and that Jowers had promised her a cut.

James McCraw was a longtime personal friend of Jowers. Records from the taxi company in 1968 show that McCraw had no fare at the boarding house on the day of the assassination.

John McFerren's claims don't exonerate Ray of course and they also don't prove Jowers's claims to be involved in the conspiracy either. McFerren's statements have changed over the years and don't match what he said in 1968.

All in all, Jowers's story doesn't hang together well and isn't corroborated by physical evidence.

I highly recommend Gerald Posner's book on the MLK assassination, Killing the Dream. It is an excellent debunking of the conspiracy theories about the assassination of Martin Luther King Jr.

[1] The US House Select Committee on Assassinations concluded that James Earl Ray was the shooter and they also concluded that it was likely that there was a conspiracy.



Loyd Jowers' credibility seems questionable.

Maybe the US House Select Committee on Assassinations had it right in the 1970s when they concluded that Ray killed King, but that there were probably others involved. Their conclusions are here:
http://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/se ... conclusion

Re: New video of Martin Luther King Jr's killer - Elvis link

Thu Apr 11, 2013 12:00 am

TJ wrote:
CONFEDERATELVIS wrote:James Earl Ray was 3 miles away in a bar full of witnesses at the time............You decide if he did it


If Ray was at a bar with a room full of witnesses, why did he instead claim to be at a gas station getting a flat tire fixed?
http://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/se ... #raysalibi


Why do you continue to do this?

Re: New video of Martin Luther King Jr's killer - Elvis link

Thu Apr 11, 2013 4:17 am

drjohncarpenter wrote:
TJ wrote:
CONFEDERATELVIS wrote:James Earl Ray was 3 miles away in a bar full of witnesses at the time............You decide if he did it


If Ray was at a bar with a room full of witnesses, why did he instead claim to be at a gas station getting a flat tire fixed?
http://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/se ... #raysalibi


Why do you continue to do this?


What are you talking about?

The point didn't make sense to me so I questioned it. Are the bar and the gas station one and the same? Did confederateelvis mistype? If not, why would Ray ignore the bunch of alibis at a bar three miles away and instead claim to be getting a flat tire fixed at a gas station? A credible explanation would be welcome.

The gas station wasn't his original alibi anyway. For some reason, this "innocent" man couldn't seem to make up his mind what he was doing at the time.

Re: New video of Martin Luther King Jr's killer - Elvis link

Thu Apr 11, 2013 10:35 am

To hear paid right-wing hack Gerakd Posner tell it, the official story is ALWAYS the only story.

I prefer to take reasonable doubt seriously. It's a bedrock of our democracy.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0156006510?ie=UTF8&force-full-site=1&ref_=aw_bottom_links

rjm

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I317 using Tapatalk 2

Re: New video of Martin Luther King Jr's killer - Elvis link

Thu Apr 11, 2013 7:58 pm

rjm wrote:To hear paid right-wing hack Gerakd Posner tell it, the official story is ALWAYS the only story.

I prefer to take reasonable doubt seriously. It's a bedrock of our democracy.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0156006510?ie=UTF8&force-full-site=1&ref_=aw_bottom_links

rjm

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I317 using Tapatalk 2



Do you trust this instead?
Orders to Kill: The Truth Behind the Murder of Martin Luther King, Jr. - William F. Pepper
http://www.amazon.com/Orders-Kill-Behin ... 0446673943

Billy Ray Eidson would disagree:
http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=95490 ... Wbk6CVwbcs

The above suggests that it's sensible to have some healthy scepticism about Pepper's claims. Well meaning he might (or might not) be, but all-knowing he isn't.

There's a difference between doubting someone's guilt and categorically stating that they are innocent. We should all have an open and questioning mind of course. Embracing the evidence that pleases us and ignoring that which doesn't gets us nowhere though, and that happens way too often with conspiracy theories IMO (wasn't aiming that specifically at you rjm).

So again, if not involved why was Ray inconsistent about his alibi? And why doesn't that inconsistency seem to trouble those that have decided he was innocent? Is it because there is a satisfactory explanation? If so, what is that explanation? I'm happy to be convinced.

Re: New video of Martin Luther King Jr's killer - Elvis link

Fri Apr 12, 2013 8:00 am

TJ wrote:
rjm wrote:To hear paid right-wing hack Gerakd Posner tell it, the official story is ALWAYS the only story.

I prefer to take reasonable doubt seriously. It's a bedrock of our democracy.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0156006510?ie=UTF8&force-full-site=1&ref_=aw_bottom_links

rjm

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I317 using Tapatalk 2



Do you trust this instead?
Orders to Kill: The Truth Behind the Murder of Martin Luther King, Jr. - William F. Pepper
http://www.amazon.com/Orders-Kill-Behin ... 0446673943

Billy Ray Eidson would disagree:
http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=95490 ... Wbk6CVwbcs

The above suggests that it's sensible to have some healthy scepticism about Pepper's claims. Well meaning he might (or might not) be, but all-knowing he isn't.

There's a difference between doubting someone's guilt and categorically stating that they are innocent. We should all have an open and questioning mind of course. Embracing the evidence that pleases us and ignoring that which doesn't gets us nowhere though, and that happens way too often with conspiracy theories IMO (wasn't aiming that specifically at you rjm).

So again, if not involved why was Ray inconsistent about his alibi? And why doesn't that inconsistency seem to trouble those that have decided he was innocent? Is it because there is a satisfactory explanation? If so, what is that explanation? I'm happy to be convinced.


I can have an opinion, but the only thing that matters in the system is "reasonable doubt." And there are inconsistencies from almost all the parties, first saying one thing, recanting, etc. A civil jury does not have to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, but a civil trial can establish either probable cause, or the lack thereof - and certainly can establish the presence of "reasonable doubt". And I think their ruling, if not casting doubt upon probable cause, did cast doubt on "guilt beyond a reasonable doubt."

In a case of that nature, there's a noose-and-pitchforks mentality, and fair trials are extremely rare. This situation, with Martin Luther King, Jr., resulted in America erupting in flames, and the devastation of the city of Memphis. Whomever they could lasso, wasn't going to get a chance, ever. And then all the proper authorities can spend the rest of their lives trying to justify it all, by citing inconsistencies. Because they will do that, and not just the Gerald Posner types, but nicey-nice liberal types, too, will do it. They have a stake in it, from Jumpstreet, and they won't let it go.

Look, I never questioned the King case until the King family became involved. I would direct questions to them in this matter.

Have you heard of the new documentary on the Central Park Jogger case? A new Ken Burns documentary shows how confessions can be easily coerced by law enforcement, even when factual innocence exists, and how so many in law enforcement refuse to let it go. You MUST see this. Because, at the time, if you lived in the NY metro area, it was as big as it gets. And they were screwed, blued, and tattooed. And they still haven't collected a penny for their suffering. And the Jogger herself was harmed because they got the wrong people; the crime could have been prevented.

http://www.pbs.org/kenburns/centralparkfive/

The video preview: http://video.pbs.org/video/2322841144

http://video.pbs.org/video/2364988928

These things happen; they really do. And while many celebrity defendants (cough, cough: Rober* Bla**) often walk away from murder and mayhem, circumstances exist where the opposite is more likely.

rjm
P.S.-- Don't get PBS over there? Buy the DVD. Do it!

Re: New video of Martin Luther King Jr's killer - Elvis link

Fri Apr 12, 2013 7:36 pm

Some might say that Ray deceived Pepper and Pepper deceived the King family Robin, possibly in good faith and possibly not. I don't know and frankly none of us do, but there are enough inconsistencies and contradictions to make it clear that it would be unwise to blindly trust the testimony of Ray, Pepper or Jowers, or the witnesses in the civil trial who supported Jowers' version of events but whose stories changed over time. People who are telling the truth do tend to stick to the same version of events after all. The facts don't change if they are really the facts. Can you imagine how those who support the conspiracy theory would jump on something like the Billy Ray Eidson screw-up if it was made by someone on the other side of the argument? We should expect the same standards from those whose positions we support as those we disagree with. We shouldn't start to believe them when they say things we want to hear.

rjm wrote:I can have an opinion, but the only thing that matters in the system is "reasonable doubt."


Yes and I respect your opinion and welcome it. It's called a discussion. Some people prefer that those who disagree with them just don't post at all. You would never advocate that and neither would I.

It's a fascinating topic and a troubling one regardless of who was responsible and what the nature of the cover up was (if any). A very great man lost his life - possibly the most effective orator of the 20th century.

Not seen the Central Park Jogger documentary. There is a channel that shows PBS stuff over here so I will look out for it.

Re: New video of Martin Luther King Jr's killer - Elvis link

Fri Apr 12, 2013 10:36 pm

TJ wrote:
drjohncarpenter wrote:Why do you continue to do this?


What are you talking about?

The point didn't make sense to me so I questioned it.


Yes. You exhibit a pattern of commenting on historical events that you know next to nothing about, that is why things do not make sense. In spite of this, and in spite of encouragement to review crucial research, you instead choose to argue from the side that holds to an "official story." It is irksome, and thus my lament.

Re: New video of Martin Luther King Jr's killer - Elvis link

Fri Apr 12, 2013 10:55 pm

drjohncarpenter wrote:
TJ wrote:
drjohncarpenter wrote:Why do you continue to do this?


What are you talking about?

The point didn't make sense to me so I questioned it.


Yes. You exhibit a pattern of commenting on historical events that you know next to nothing about, that is why things do not make sense. In spite of this, and in spite of encouragement to review crucial research, you instead choose to argue from the side that holds to an "official story." It is irksome, and thus my lament.



No, what is irksome is that some of us have humility and concede that we can't know everything and others (that would be you) claim to know it all, even when issues are highly contentious. For some reason, DJC is infallible. That is embarrassing.

If you put your ego to one side for a second, you would also note that several times in this thread I have asked questions and invited people to disagree and say why they disagree. Your "Why do you continue to do this?" comment makes it clear that views that don't match your own are simply not welcome. When it comes to 9/11, Kennedy, and MLK, you evidently have no interest in a discussion, unless people only reiterate what you believe. Oh and if the question was so unreasonable and easily answered, how about answering it? While at it, how about answering this question that you ignored from that other thread...

"So, how about a comment on President Obama's dismissal of the 9/11 conspiracy theories and his decision to persist with the pursuit of Bin Laden? If what you believe is true and there really is a cover up, is the President completely in the dark? And if the evidence is so convincing, why does that highly intelligent man not believe it? I know you have great respect for President Obama, so you surely can't believe that he knows?"

Re: New video of Martin Luther King Jr's killer - Elvis link

Fri Apr 12, 2013 11:19 pm

TJ wrote:No, what is irksome is that some of us have humility and concede that we can't know everything and others (that would be you) claim to know it all ...


And this is what you do next when called on it -- you act defensive, do not address my points, and call names.

Re: New video of Martin Luther King Jr's killer - Elvis link

Sat Apr 13, 2013 1:47 am

1. Recantation is common in many true accounts; it depends on the circumstances.

2. I hope you are really going to watch The Central Park Five documentary.

I will be ordering the DVD.

That goes for EVERYONE.

rjm

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I317 using Tapatalk 2

Re: New video of Martin Luther King Jr's killer - Elvis link

Sat Apr 13, 2013 5:06 am

drjohncarpenter wrote:
TJ wrote:No, what is irksome is that some of us have humility and concede that we can't know everything and others (that would be you) claim to know it all ...


And this is what you do next when called on it -- you act defensive, do not address my points, and call names.


Were you looking in a mirror when you typed that?

There was nothing for me to be called on. I asked a reasonable question and you begrudged it being asked because you saw it as an attack on the conspiracy theory. It's no more complicated than that. It's also not the first time and likely won't be the last.

If you made a point for me to address, I would address it and I would say if I didn't have a view. Bit surprised that you would make that observation though, given that you are making a habit of avoiding direct questions.

Re: New video of Martin Luther King Jr's killer - Elvis link

Sat Apr 13, 2013 10:08 pm

TJ wrote: I asked a reasonable question and you begrudged it being asked because you saw it as an attack on the conspiracy theory.


Nope. My observations are well-clarified above, and elsewhere.

Re: New video of Martin Luther King Jr's killer - Elvis link

Mon Apr 15, 2013 11:28 am

drjohncarpenter wrote:
TJ wrote: I asked a reasonable question and you begrudged it being asked because you saw it as an attack on the conspiracy theory.


Nope. My observations are well-clarified above, and elsewhere.



And based on the assumption that if someone doesn't agree they must be ignorant - that if only they would read or watch everything that you have read and seen, they would surely agree with you. There's no room for the possibility that people might interpret the same evidence differently, eg they might rightly or wrongly detect an agenda, or have seen the evidence satisfactorily scrutinised elsewhere. Sometimes evidence that is questionable or discredited remains part of conspiracy theories for years.

Anyway, irrespective of how much you think someone knows about a topic, it's not your role to make assumptions about what they know or to come on in a disapproving fashion when they ask a question. The more mature response would be to try to answer that question if it's so easily done.