Off Topic Messages

Who wins at their peak - ALI or TYSON ?

MUHAMMAD ALI
9
64%
MIKE TYSON
5
36%
 
Total votes : 14

Re: Tyson on Ali

Tue Jan 15, 2013 12:51 am

promiseland wrote:elvisalisellers I don't mean to go off topic just a little, but this is probably the best time Ali ever had on TV, he was so surprised at was happening to him. This is really wonderful and thought I would share it here.
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Promiseland-Thanks for posting the video-He was a great man in and out of the ring, an individual full to the brim with class.

Re: Tyson on Ali

Tue Jan 15, 2013 6:14 am

60's Ali would dance around Tyson, and ware him down in a 15 round fight. Ali could take a punch, sadly. The last seven years of his career proved that. Ali would have to be in top shape to beat Tyson, but in the 60's - Ali never wasn't in shape.

Early 70's Ali would of had to really cared about the right. Still could have pulled it off.

Late 70's Ali would have had a tough time on his hands. Tyson was 1000-times better than Leon Spinks, but the Ali who seriously trained for the Spinks rematch would have been destroyed by Tyson.

Although you can't use this to rate fighters - but Tyson destroyed Trevor Berbick in two rounds in 1986. Ali almost beat Trevor Berbick in his last fight, and Ali was finished as a fighter at that point. I think a prime Ali would beat Tyson, but it would take a lot of dancing and pop punching.

Re: Tyson on Ali

Tue Jan 15, 2013 3:01 pm

fg76 wrote:60's Ali would dance around Tyson, and ware him down in a 15 round fight.

Yep.

fg76 wrote:Early 70's Ali would of had to really cared about the right. Still could have pulled it off.

He would need more than the 2 fights he had prior to facing Frazier in the first fight; but yes, Ali still had more than enough to beat Tyson at this stage in his career.

fg76 wrote:Late 70's Ali would have had a tough time on his hands. Tyson was 1000-times better than Leon Spinks, but the Ali who seriously trained for the Spinks rematch would have been destroyed by Tyson.

A fairer match-up would be late period Tyson.

That fighter would never have "destroyed" the Ali - in his best shape since "The Thrilla in Manila" - of the second Spinks fight.
Far from it.

Re: Tyson on Ali

Tue Jan 15, 2013 8:06 pm

fg76 wrote:60's Ali would dance around Tyson, and ware him down in a 15 round fight. Ali could take a punch, sadly. The last seven years of his career proved that. Ali would have to be in top shape to beat Tyson, but in the 60's - Ali never wasn't in shape.

Early 70's Ali would of had to really cared about the right. Still could have pulled it off.

Late 70's Ali would have had a tough time on his hands. Tyson was 1000-times better than Leon Spinks, but the Ali who seriously trained for the Spinks rematch would have been destroyed by Tyson.

Although you can't use this to rate fighters - but Tyson destroyed Trevor Berbick in two rounds in 1986. Ali almost beat Trevor Berbick in his last fight, and Ali was finished as a fighter at that point. I think a prime Ali would beat Tyson, but it would take a lot of dancing and pop punching.


Ali got knocked down by 14 stone Henry Cooper a year before he beat Liston for the World Title and Ali was all over the place when he got to his feet, only being saved by the bell.

If Tyson would have caught him with a punch like that , Ali wouldn't have even got off the canvas.

Anyone with any common sense should realise that no one knows for sure what would have happened if the two had met in their prime.

Ali had problems against Tyson-like boxers (Frazier & Norton) so to write off a prime Tyson is quite ridiculous.

Re: Tyson on Ali

Tue Jan 15, 2013 9:24 pm

Bodie wrote:
fg76 wrote:60's Ali would dance around Tyson, and ware him down in a 15 round fight. Ali could take a punch, sadly. The last seven years of his career proved that. Ali would have to be in top shape to beat Tyson, but in the 60's - Ali never wasn't in shape.

Early 70's Ali would of had to really cared about the right. Still could have pulled it off.

Late 70's Ali would have had a tough time on his hands. Tyson was 1000-times better than Leon Spinks, but the Ali who seriously trained for the Spinks rematch would have been destroyed by Tyson.

Although you can't use this to rate fighters - but Tyson destroyed Trevor Berbick in two rounds in 1986. Ali almost beat Trevor Berbick in his last fight, and Ali was finished as a fighter at that point. I think a prime Ali would beat Tyson, but it would take a lot of dancing and pop punching.


Ali got knocked down by 14 stone Henry Cooper a year before he beat Liston for the World Title and Ali was all over the place when he got to his feet, only being saved by the bell.

If Tyson would have caught him with a punch like that , Ali wouldn't have even got off the canvas.

Anyone with any common sense should realise that no one knows for sure what would have happened if the two had met in their prime.

Ali had problems against Tyson-like boxers (Frazier & Norton) so to write off a prime Tyson is quite ridiculous.


I'm not writing Tyson off - I said he could have pulled it off. I never said it would be easy.

Norton was the guy Ali really had trouble with, even when he took him serious the second time around in September 1973 - he almost lost. Most felt Norton beat him all three times. Ali partied the night before he fought Norton the first time, and Norton broke Ali's jaw too - but Ali could take a punch. (Their is debate if Ali broke his jaw in the second or last round. During the fight, Pecheco claimed it was a loose tooth in round eight and nothing more - later he noted Ali had his jaw broke in round 2. Norton still thinks to this day it was a lie.)
Last edited by fg76 on Tue Jan 15, 2013 9:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Re: Tyson on Ali

Tue Jan 15, 2013 9:38 pm

fg76 wrote:
Bodie wrote:
fg76 wrote:60's Ali would dance around Tyson, and ware him down in a 15 round fight. Ali could take a punch, sadly. The last seven years of his career proved that. Ali would have to be in top shape to beat Tyson, but in the 60's - Ali never wasn't in shape.

Early 70's Ali would of had to really cared about the right. Still could have pulled it off.

Late 70's Ali would have had a tough time on his hands. Tyson was 1000-times better than Leon Spinks, but the Ali who seriously trained for the Spinks rematch would have been destroyed by Tyson.

Although you can't use this to rate fighters - but Tyson destroyed Trevor Berbick in two rounds in 1986. Ali almost beat Trevor Berbick in his last fight, and Ali was finished as a fighter at that point. I think a prime Ali would beat Tyson, but it would take a lot of dancing and pop punching.


Ali got knocked down by 14 stone Henry Cooper a year before he beat Liston for the World Title and Ali was all over the place when he got to his feet, only being saved by the bell.

If Tyson would have caught him with a punch like that , Ali wouldn't have even got off the canvas.

Anyone with any common sense should realise that no one knows for sure what would have happened if the two had met in their prime.

Ali had problems against Tyson-like boxers (Frazier & Norton) so to write off a prime Tyson is quite ridiculous.


I'm not writing Tyson off - I said he could have pulled it off. I never said it would be easy.


You did say that Ali would have danced around Tyson to a 15-round decision, only if Tyson had his hands tied behind his back.
Tyson had a power punch and speed unlike any other Heavyweight so no one will know what could have happened if the two had met in their prime.
Both had the talent to have beaten each other.

It would have been an interesting fight, two different styles but impossible to predict a winner.

Re: Tyson on Ali

Tue Jan 15, 2013 11:58 pm

Also Tyson wasn't just puncher,he had very,very fast hands and in his prime was a great combination puncher throwing punches from all sorts of different angles.He was also a very underrated boxer .

Re: Tyson on Ali

Wed Jan 16, 2013 12:04 am

Bodie wrote:Ali got knocked down by 14 stone Henry Cooper a year before he beat Liston for the World Title and Ali was all over the place when he got to his feet, only being saved by the bell.

Yeah, he was so "all over the place" when stopping Henry in the very next round.

Bodie wrote:If Tyson would have caught him with a punch like that , Ali wouldn't have even got off the canvas.

Can you remind me of the fight/s in which Ali never got up off the canvas?
And while you're at it, let me know which fights Tyson won [or even went the distance] after being knocked down. Thanks!

Oh and BTW, 1963 was not prime Ali [then Clay], but I'm guessing you knew that already. :wink:

Re: Tyson on Ali

Wed Jan 16, 2013 4:29 am

elvisalisellers wrote:
Yeah, he was so "all over the place" when stopping Henry in the very next round.


On a cut, yes, and after Dundee had cheated to give Ali a longer recovery time. The unknown is what might have happened if Cooper had caught him earlier in the fourth round.

Re: Tyson on Ali

Wed Jan 16, 2013 7:12 am

It was only like 5 extra seconds. (Although Dundee admitted he played with the torn glove in order to give his kid a breather)

Re: Tyson on Ali

Wed Jan 16, 2013 10:59 am

I say Ali would have beat Tyson

Re: Tyson on Ali

Wed Jan 16, 2013 12:18 pm

At the end of the day Tyson lost his desire to fight and that's why he ended up the way he did.In a interview I saw he said his career was over after the loss to Buster Douglas,after that he just fought for the money.
As for the Ali-Cooper fight ,yes Ali had a bit of help with the glove incident but he was also a very fit athlete who had great powers of recovery, so even without the extra time I don't think the outcome would have been any different.
Whatever the outcome of a fight between the two I think it would have been eclipsed by the build up!

Re: Tyson on Ali

Wed Jan 16, 2013 10:28 pm

elvisalisellers wrote:
Bodie wrote:Ali got knocked down by 14 stone Henry Cooper a year before he beat Liston for the World Title and Ali was all over the place when he got to his feet, only being saved by the bell.

Yeah, he was so "all over the place" when stopping Henry in the very next round.

Bodie wrote:If Tyson would have caught him with a punch like that , Ali wouldn't have even got off the canvas.

Can you remind me of the fight/s in which Ali never got up off the canvas?
And while you're at it, let me know which fights Tyson won [or even went the distance] after being knocked down. Thanks!

Oh and BTW, 1963 was not prime Ali [then Clay], but I'm guessing you knew that already. :wink:


So your saying Ali was totally fine to carry on once he got off the canvas after Cooper knocked him down? Watch the fight again, he stumbles back to his corner and doesn't know where he is, Dundee had to give him smelling salts (Which was illegal) to wake him up.
Yes, Ali came back and won the fight in the next round due to the fact Cooper was cut and the torn glove Dundee made bigger was a big help.

Ali never met anyone in his career who had the speed and power that Tyson had and was so awkward to hit, im talking about a prime Tyson.

Im not saying Tyson would have won but i have at least the intelligence to realise that either Ali or Tyson would have won the fight if they had met in their prime.
Anyone who thinks they can predict the outcome of this impossible fight is deluded.

Re: Tyson on Ali

Wed Jan 16, 2013 11:34 pm

fg76 wrote:It was only like 5 extra seconds.

Yep.
It's actually quite funny that some still cling to the myth.

TJ wrote:...Dundee had cheated to give Ali a longer recovery time.

Calling one of the most respected trainers in boxing history a cheat only reads bad on you.

keninlincs wrote:I say Ali would have beat Tyson

Without question, Ken.

Bodie wrote:...the torn glove Dundee made bigger was a big help.

Yeah, those extra 6 seconds made all the difference.


P.S. I'm still waiting on you reminding me of the fight/s in which Ali never got up off the canvas.

Any info on the fights Tyson won [or went the distance] after being knocked down, would be much appreciated, too.

Re: Tyson on Ali

Wed Jan 16, 2013 11:55 pm

elvisalisellers wrote:
TJ wrote:...Dundee had cheated to give Ali a longer recovery time.

Calling one of the most respected trainers in boxing history a cheat only reads bad on you.


Really? Did he not make the tear bigger with a view to gaining time? If so, how is that not an attempt at cheating? Then there's also the smelling salts which were not permitted.

I never bought into the myth that Ali was given minutes more recovery time as a result of the torn glove, but I did think it was 30-40 seconds or so. Didn't know it was only 6. In any case, Dundee was trying something sneaky to protect his man. It doesn't make him any less of a legendary trainer, but it is what happened.

Re: Tyson on Ali

Thu Jan 17, 2013 6:15 pm

Ali had one major ability/advantage over Tyson (and, for that matter, his other opponents): his ability to think on his feet in the ring and make adjustments if things weren't going his way. Tyson simply lacked that ability. When Cus D'amato was in his corner he fullfilled that function for him between rounds, but after Cus died Tyson was basically on his own in the ring and that's why he began losing fights - he couldn't adjust when things weren't going his way. I remember watching the Douglas fight and thinking that Tyson's corner people were useless and clueless. Just a bunch of synchofant cheerleaders.

Re: Tyson on Ali

Thu Jan 17, 2013 10:13 pm

Cus was a asset to Tyson but Tyson's best wins came after Cus had died.Tyson was a fighter who was showing improvement with every fight,his problems started not with the death of Cus but with the firing on his trainer Kevin Rooney after the Spinks fight.
From the Bruno fight on wards it was downhill.And with the combination of his association withe Robin Givens and Don King he really started spiraling out of control.As for the Douglas loss,Tyson Freely admits he didn't train for it and 2 weeks prior to the fight was only eating soup in a desperate attempt to lose the weight he had gained,he also has said that both Bruno and Carl "The Truth" Williams should have beaten him as he wasn't in any sort of shape in those fights.
The Tyson of the Spinks fight would have given any Heavyweight in history a very tough time.
Everybody say's how elusive Ali was but D'Mato was a great trainer and tactician and if we're playing the fantasy game of jumping eras then the Tyson who fought Ali (In my Mind) would have had D'Mato in his corner.
Cus worked with Ali on the documentary A.K.A Cassius Clay, here he recalls sparring with Ali,
From the book Sting Like A Bee;

"He was showing off with his Ali shuffle,telling me how me how fast he was with his new invention that nobody could touch him.I laughed and he said to me; "Yea that's right old man nobody can touch me! I say Mr Ali one doesn't have to be a fighter to prove you wrong! Well he didn't like that.What can you do Ali said.So we stood up facing each other and Ali did the Ali shuffle,crisscrossing his feet with great speed,stopped and threw a jab.And I simply did this...Cus took up a boxers stance,then bent his body quickly to the right and extended his left straight out, in the of my stomach.
"You caught me by surprise" Ali said "That's what one is supposed to do"I said. Ali got really mad,he got so mad that he wanted to do it again and I new he wanted to do it again to trick me.Cus sat down and pushed by a mysterious spring got up again.
"You see" He said with a broad smile on his face, "He knew that I had outsmarted him the first time and he wanted to get even.And I knew what he was going to do,what was going on in his head" Cus again resumes the position from which he had surprised Ali. "You see that," he says,showing me his whole left side exposed. "That's exactly what he saw when I tricked him,but he had seen it too late.
"Well, I pretended that I didn't want to fool around.But Ali insisted and I made him "Force" me to do it again.Just as I expected when he stopped the shuffle ,I bent to exactly as before,and when he made his move to punch with the right to my left side,I came up with my right,beating him to the punch and right here," Cus touches the left side of my jaw, "Right here."
"I drew blood from his mouth. "He cut me,he cut me" Ali yelled,spitting a little blood."Man,you are fast,"he said to me.
Cus went on to explain that it was all about timing.

When people used to say that Tyson was to short to compete with the taller opponents in the Heavyweight division he said it didn't matter it was all about how you time the punch.For those who write Tyson off as a one dimensional fighter'look him up on you tube,in his day he was a very well schooled fighter with exceptional ability.His down fall wasn't down to a lack of skills or ability it was down to a lack of self control.

Re: Tyson on Ali

Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:02 pm

Good point about Kevin Rooney, Jacob. I forgot about him.

Re: Tyson on Ali

Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:08 pm

Tyson is on record as saying that D'Amato thought Ali "was the greatest fighter that God ever created."

'Nuff said.

Re: Tyson on Ali

Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:11 pm

I thought D'Mato thought Joe Louis was the greatest Heavyweight of all time? And even if he did say that about Ali it doesn't mean he wasn't beatable,Cus saw the best of Ali,he never saw the best of Tyson.

Re: Tyson on Ali

Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:15 pm

It's fairly ironic that some people are adamant that Tyson would have beaten a prime Ali when Tyson's penultimate fight was a 4th round KO loss against one of the worst British heavyweights in history. To my knowledge, 'William's Hammer' is an uncommon term in the boxing world. Ali by late stoppage. I also disagree with the theory that Norton won all three fights. I acknowledge that Ali struggled with his style but this Norton superiority stuff in the fights is rubbish

Re: Tyson on Ali

Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:21 pm

I'm not saying that Tyson would have beat Ali-we'll never no that what I'm saying is that Tyson belonged in the same ring as him.As for Tyson losing to Danny Williams,Tyson shouldn't have even been fighting at that stage in his life,It was like he said, he only did it to clear his tax bill.
Comparing Tyson -Danny Williams is like comparing Ali-Berbick,neither fight should be taken seriously when assessing their legacy's.

Re: Tyson on Ali

Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:39 pm

In celebration of the champ's birthday today, I thought I would share this great "Wide World of Sports" boxing special he made with Howard Cosell [at his Deer Lake training camp] in February 1976.

In it, Ali looks back and discusses - with his customary bravado, humour and grace - all of the great old-time heavyweights.

It's a really fascinating insight into his thoughts and assessments on these fighters.

It's also notable as one of the last times he appears on TV without any signs of prospective ill-health.

Enjoy it.


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Re: Tyson on Ali

Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:48 pm

Thanks for posting,I'm going to watch them all later when my children have finally gone to sleep! :D

Re: Tyson on Ali

Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:50 pm

There was also one on Youtube of of Ali's roast hosted by Dean Martin,I couldn't upload it,have you seen that one?