Off Topic Messages

Re: Another School Shooting -- Children Dead

Tue Dec 18, 2012 2:15 am

Robt wrote:One possible solution - Ban the manufacturing and sales of ammunition. Gun collectors can still purchase a variety of waepons but just as a hobby, not to fire them. It's worth a try.



Statements like yours Robt is exactly why the NRA and gun owners won't give in even a little
when it comes to new gun laws.

Be part of the solution, not the problem.

Re: Another School Shooting -- Children Dead

Tue Dec 18, 2012 3:10 am

iplayastrat wrote:
Robt wrote:One possible solution - Ban the manufacturing and sales of ammunition. Gun collectors can still purchase a variety of waepons but just as a hobby, not to fire them. It's worth a try.



Statements like yours Robt is exactly why the NRA and gun owners won't give in even a little when it comes to new gun laws.

Be part of the solution, not the problem.

The statement is well-intentioned but naive, a notion I have addressed on page 2.

Here is more for everyone to consider regarding this tragedy:

I am Adam Lanza’s Mother
http://www.elvis-collectors.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=74023

Re: Another School Shooting -- Children Dead

Tue Dec 18, 2012 3:47 am

We can see just how little America addresses mental health issues by the amount of films that are not made on the subject. A quick search on imdb shows a complete lack of film in the last decade that deal seriously with the issue. Those movies that do have it as a theme generally deal with it in a superfluous way. One exception to that is "It's Kind of a Funny Story",set in a psychiatric ward over the course of a week.

What is remarkable about this film is that it is clearly made in a way to appeal to teens (he protagonist is 16), but also that is quashes some of the myths. The boy at the heart of the movie checks himself in to the hospital because he is depressed and thinks he might commit suicide. But when asked why he thinks he might be depressed, he doesn't know. This is one myth blown out of the water within five minutes - people are not normally suffering from this type of illness for a reason (their dog died, the marriage ended in divorce). It's just not the case for the majority of times when it comes to clinical depression and other mental illnesses of that type.

Now, it may seem rather an odd place to talk about a Hollywood comedy considering the subject of this thread, and the terrible subject it concerns itself with. But my point is to highlight how these types of issues can be brought into the public sphere and talked about - film and tv are the obvious ways to start normalising this condition and stop people judging those with it. Of course, getting people to want to enter these discussions is another thing altogether - the film in question didn't make it's modest outlay of $8 million back.

"No-one wants to see a film about nutters".

But, storylines such as this could be incorporated into TV dramas, especially those aimed at teenagers. Everything from Party of Five to Glee have discussed issues such as alcoholism, sexuality, disability etc in a way that made them palatable. The only programme that I know of that has dealt with the issue was The United States of Tara, and that hardly received great viewing figures despite effectively turning multiple personality disorder into an adult sitcom.

Of course, there will be those who will say that it is the government that needs to make changes, and the healthcare system needs to change. That is completely true. But my point here is that there is no point making treatment better if people are scared to come forward and say they have a problem. This isn't a government issue. This is an issue for the entire population (and not just of America, it should be added).

Re: Another School Shooting -- Children Dead

Tue Dec 18, 2012 4:08 am

I have no idea about the publication in general - the article was linked to in a tweet by young film director Xavier Dolan, but it seems like a very reasonable piece of work:


Ten Arguments Gun Advocates Make, and Why They're Wrong
Paul Waldman

December 15, 2012

A guide to the debate we'll be having, or at least we ought to have

There has been yet another mass shooting, something that now seems to occur on a monthly basis. Every time another tragedy like this occurs, gun advocates make the same arguments about why we can't possibly do anything to restrict the weaponization of our culture. Here's a guide to what they'll be saying in the coming days:

1. Now isn't the time to talk about guns.

We're going to hear this over and over, and not just from gun advocates; Jay Carney said it to White House reporters today. But if we're not going to talk about it now, when are we going to talk about it? After Sandy hit the East Coast, no one said, "Now isn't the time to talk about disaster preparedness; best leave that until it doesn't seem so urgent." When there's a terrorist attack, no one says, "Now isn't the time to talk about terrorism." Now is exactly the time.

2. Guns don't kill people, people kill people.

Maybe, but people with guns kill many, many more people than they would if they didn't have guns, and guns designed to kill as many people as possible. We don't know if the murderer in Newtown was suffering from a suicidal depression, but many mass shooters in the past were. And guess what? People suffer from suicidal depression everywhere in the world. People get angry and upset everywhere in the world. But there aren't mass shootings every few weeks in England or Costa Rica or Japan, and the reason is that people in those places who have these impulses don't have an easy way to access lethal weapons and unlimited ammunition. But if you want to kill large numbers of people and you happen to be an American, you'll find it easy to do.

3. If only everybody around was armed, an ordinary civilian could take out a mass killer before he got too far.

If that were true, then how come it never happens? The truth is that in a chaotic situation, even highly trained police officers often kill bystanders. The idea that some accountant who spent a few hours at the range would suddenly turn into Jason Bourne and take out the killer without doing more harm than good has no basis in reality.

4. We don't need more laws, we just need to enforce the laws we have.

The people who say this are the same ones who fight to make sure that existing laws are as weak and ineffectual as possible. Our current gun laws are riddled with loopholes and allow people to amass enormous arsenals of military-style weapons with virtually no restrictions.

5. Criminals will always find a way to get guns no matter what measures we take, so what's the point?

The question isn't whether we could snap our fingers and make every gun disappear. It's whether we can make it harder for criminals to get guns, and harder for an unbalanced person with murderous intent to kill so many people. The goal is to reduce violence as much as possible. There's no other problem for which we'd say if we can't solve it completely and forever we shouldn't even try.

6. The Constitution says I have a right to own guns.

Yes it does, but for some reason gun advocates think that the right to bear arms is the only constitutional right that is virtually without limit. You have the right to practice your religion, but not if your religion involves human sacrifice. You have the right to free speech, but you can still be prosecuted for incitement or conspiracy, and you can be sued for libel. Every right is subject to limitation when it begins to threaten others, and the Supreme Court has affirmed that even though there is an individual right to gun ownership, the government can put reasonable restrictions on that right.

And we all know that if this shooter turns out to have a Muslim name, plenty of Americans, including plenty of gun owners, will be more than happy to give up all kinds of rights in the name of fighting terrorism. Have the government read my email? Have my cell phone company turn over my call records? Check which books I'm taking out of the library? Make me take my shoes off before getting on a plane, just because some idiot tried to blow up his sneakers? Sure, do what you've got to do. But don't make it harder to buy thousands of rounds of ammunition, because if we couldn't do that we'd no longer be free.

7. Widespread gun ownership is a guarantee against tyranny.

If that had anything to do with contemporary life, then mature democracies would be constantly overthrown by despots. But they aren't. We shouldn't write laws based on the fantasies of conspiracy theorists.

8. Guns are a part of American culture.

Indeed they are, but so are a lot of things, and that tells us nothing about whether they're good or bad and how we want to treat them going forward. Slavery was a part of American culture for a couple of hundred years, but eventually we decided it had to go.

9. The American people don't want more gun control.

The truth is that when public opinion polls have asked Americans about specific measures, the public is in favor of a much more restrictive gun regime than we have now. Significant majorities would like to see the assault weapons ban reinstated, mandatory licensing and training for all gun owners, significant waiting periods for purchases, and host of other restrictions (there are more details here). In many cases, gun owners themselves support more restrictions than we currently have.

10. Having movie theaters and schools full of kids periodically shot up is just a price we should be willing to pay if it means I get to play with guns and pretend I'm Wyatt Earp.

OK, that's actually an argument gun advocates don't make. But it's the truth that lies beneath all their other arguments. All that we suffer because of the proliferation of guns—these horrifying tragedies, the 30,000 Americans who are killed every year with guns—for gun advocates, it's unfortunate, but it's a price they're willing to pay. If only they'd have the guts to say it.

https://prospect.org/article/ten-argume ... ao.twitter

Re: Another School Shooting -- Children Dead

Tue Dec 18, 2012 9:19 am

I think you'll find it heartening to either remember, or know about this: it's her book transformed into a TV movie. And it was very well-received, and may have helped quite a few people.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0099209/

rjm
P.S. -- The "Morgan Freeman" essay has no source because there isn't one. You can search, and search. It's a 'net hoax. Check Snopes.

Re: Another School Shooting -- Children Dead

Tue Dec 18, 2012 1:01 pm

Banning those semi-automatic weapons like John Howard did in Australia would sure help :|

Re: Another School Shooting -- Children Dead

Tue Dec 18, 2012 3:58 pm

I think a good deterrent would be to have at least 2 or 3 armed security guards at every school in the US to try and prevent another one of these tragic events.

Re: Another School Shooting -- Children Dead

Tue Dec 18, 2012 4:30 pm

rjm wrote:I think you'll find it heartening to either remember, or know about this: it's her book transformed into a TV movie. And it was very well-received, and may have helped quite a few people.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0099209/

rjm
P.S. -- The "Morgan Freeman" essay has no source because there isn't one. You can search, and search. It's a 'net hoax. Check Snopes.


But that was 20 years ago.

Re: Another School Shooting -- Children Dead

Wed Dec 19, 2012 12:17 am

Last year handguns killed

8 people in Great Britain
48 people in Japan
34 people in Switzerland
52 people in Canada
21 people in Sweden
58 people in israel
42 people in West Germany
and
10,728 people in the united states

there are no words...but the numbers say it all. ~

Re: Another School Shooting -- Children Dead

Wed Dec 19, 2012 2:44 am

YDKM wrote:Last year handguns killed

8 people in Great Britain
48 people in Japan
34 people in Switzerland
52 people in Canada
21 people in Sweden
58 people in israel
42 people in West Germany
and
10,728 people in the united states

there are no words...but the numbers say it all. ~



WOW!! We should be ashamed of ourselves here in the US. Those statistics are a disgrace

rlj

Re: Another School Shooting -- Children Dead

Wed Dec 19, 2012 5:39 am

Number of people killed in Automobile accidents in the U.S. in 2011: 32,367

There are no words - the numbers say it all! We should be ashamed! Those statistics are a disgrace!

It's time to outlaw automoblies. It's time for "auto-control"! No one has a right to own one anyway!




RKS

Re: Another School Shooting -- Children Dead

Wed Dec 19, 2012 6:02 am

RKSNASHVILLE wrote:Number of people killed in Automobile accidents in the U.S. in 2011: 32,367

There are no words - the numbers say it all! We should be ashamed! Those statistics are a disgrace!

It's time to outlaw automoblies. It's time for "auto-control"! No one has a right to own one anyway!



Children were murdered in cold blood. And this is the post you make?

Your "statistics" have nothing to do with the horrific events of last Friday. Many reasoned views have been posted here.

It's embarrassing that you have the gall to post this. You should be ashamed.

Re: Another School Shooting -- Children Dead

Wed Dec 19, 2012 6:13 am

RKSNASHVILLE wrote:Number of people killed in Automobile accidents in the U.S. in 2011: 32,367

There are no words - the numbers say it all! We should be ashamed! Those statistics are a disgrace!

It's time to outlaw automoblies. It's time for "auto-control"! No one has a right to own one anyway!




RKS



All of which were accidents. I think we can agree that most gun deaths are intentional. That's the difference.

No realistic person is advocating a push for a total ban on guns anyway, not least because it wouldn't have a hope of passing. The issue is whether or not there should be tighter controls and restrictions on the types of guns that can be purchased. To date, Obama has achieved nothing in this area and hasn't even tried to, although some of the periodic coverage from the right wing sections of the media might lead you to believe otherwise. Perhaps now, with the re-election concerns out of the way and in the face of this latest tragedy, something sensible will be achieved.

Re: Another School Shooting -- Children Dead

Wed Dec 19, 2012 6:54 am

RKSNASHVILLE wrote:Number of people killed in Automobile accidents in the U.S. in 2011: 32,367

There are no words - the numbers say it all! We should be ashamed! Those statistics are a disgrace!

It's time to outlaw automoblies. It's time for "auto-control"! No one has a right to own one anyway!




RKS

What an asinine take. Automobiles are far more regulated than guns...it is easier and faster to buy a gun than it is a car. Cars have a primary purpose of transportation. Guns, especially automatics with large clips have a primary purpose of maiming and killing a lot of people at once.

Re: Another School Shooting -- Children Dead

Wed Dec 19, 2012 12:42 pm

bquick wrote:
RKSNASHVILLE wrote:Number of people killed in Automobile accidents in the U.S. in 2011: 32,367

There are no words - the numbers say it all! We should be ashamed! Those statistics are a disgrace!

It's time to outlaw automoblies. It's time for "auto-control"! No one has a right to own one anyway!

RKS

What an asinine take. Automobiles are far more regulated than guns...it is easier and faster to buy a gun than it is a car. Cars have a primary purpose of transportation. Guns, especially automatics with large clips have a primary purpose of maiming and killing a lot of people at once.


Too right !

The UK's useless Prince Phillip made a similar argument after the Dunblane massacre, when he said:

"If someone mad goes out & kills using a cricket bat, would we ban those ?"

He failed to realise that a cricket bat is not intended to be a harmful weapon - a gun is !

Re: Another School Shooting -- Children Dead

Wed Dec 19, 2012 2:34 pm

drjohncarpenter wrote:
RKSNASHVILLE wrote:Number of people killed in Automobile accidents in the U.S. in 2011: 32,367

There are no words - the numbers say it all! We should be ashamed! Those statistics are a disgrace!

It's time to outlaw automoblies. It's time for "auto-control"! No one has a right to own one anyway!



Children were murdered in cold blood. And this is the post you make?

Your "statistics" have nothing to do with the horrific events of last Friday. Many reasoned views have been posted here.

It's embarrassing that you have the gall to post this. You should be ashamed.


You're right. However if RKS Nashville has a rethink, he should be given the chance to remove his disgraceful post.

Re: Another School Shooting -- Children Dead

Wed Dec 19, 2012 5:09 pm

YDKM wrote:Last year handguns killed

8 people in Great Britain
48 people in Japan
34 people in Switzerland
52 people in Canada
21 people in Sweden
58 people in israel
42 people in West Germany
and
10,728 people in the united states

there are no words...but the numbers say it all. ~


YDKM, our numbers here in the U.S. are skewed substantially upward by the gang-related shootings and drug-related violent crime in out inner cities. Many, if not most of the weapons used in those crimes were not purchased legally. Also, we are a far more populace country that the ones on your list. But I'm for some sensible gun control measures, as I've made clear in one of my previous posts.

Re: Another School Shooting -- Children Dead

Wed Dec 19, 2012 6:22 pm

Robt wrote:
drjohncarpenter wrote:
RKSNASHVILLE wrote:Number of people killed in Automobile accidents in the U.S. in 2011: 32,367

There are no words - the numbers say it all! We should be ashamed! Those statistics are a disgrace!

It's time to outlaw automoblies. It's time for "auto-control"! No one has a right to own one anyway!



Children were murdered in cold blood. And this is the post you make?

Your "statistics" have nothing to do with the horrific events of last Friday. Many reasoned views have been posted here.

It's embarrassing that you have the gall to post this. You should be ashamed.


You're right. However if RKS Nashville has a rethink, he should be given the chance to remove his disgraceful post.



I TOTALLY AGREE!!!

Re: Another School Shooting -- Children Dead

Wed Dec 19, 2012 10:01 pm

Pete Dube wrote:
YDKM wrote:Last year handguns killed

8 people in Great Britain
48 people in Japan
34 people in Switzerland
52 people in Canada
21 people in Sweden
58 people in israel
42 people in West Germany
and
10,728 people in the united states

there are no words...but the numbers say it all. ~


YDKM, our numbers here in the U.S. are skewed substantially upward by the gang-related shootings and drug-related violent crime in out inner cities. Many, if not most of the weapons used in those crimes were not purchased legally. Also, we are a far more populace country that the ones on your list. But I'm for some sensible gun control measures, as I've made clear in one of my previous posts.


You are correct.The number of gun deaths would drop tremendously if we could stop the rotating door of the judicial system.We have these people whose entire lives are spent in and out of the system.Personally I think the people problem we have is a bigger issue than the guns.We need to crackdown on people who have no regard for society and its rules.I have no compassion for these people walking around with a dozen arrests and some felonies under their belt.They are the reason i feel the need to keep guns at the ready in my home.The recent tragedy is a completely different situation obviously.I dont know what could have been done to prevent that.Shoud we lockup every person who s mentally unstable?How do you predict what someone might do?Horrible things are going to happen no matter what you do and that's just the reality of it.New gun legislation won't do anything.The laws only impact people who care about the laws to begin with.New gun restrictions and talk of banning is just a knee jerk reaction.The guns are already here.This country is flooded with firearms.I had been planning to purchase a new handgun for myself.I stopped at a gunshop yesterday and made my purchase.The place was so packed I had to park on the street the shop was so full.People were lined up buying guns out of fear.Another aftermath of the shooting is a huge surge in gun sales.All made by people like me who abide by the laws.We all stood there and waited for our background checks and approval.Its unfortunate that so many people have guns that shouldn't however.There are just no easy solutions or answers to what happened.I can't begin to understand what those parents are going through.I still have a hard time grasping what that individual did.

Re: Another School Shooting -- Children Dead

Wed Dec 19, 2012 11:39 pm

Jak, I think Poormadpeter made a good point on another post. We've got to start trying to figure out what's causing this particular form of insanity. But what has got me spooked is that, after all is said and done, we may still have no real answers. It may simply be that evil dwells among us in human form and has found a new way to flex it's muscles, so to speak.

Re: Another School Shooting -- Children Dead

Thu Dec 20, 2012 5:41 am

RKSNASHVILLE wrote:Number of people killed in Automobile accidents in the U.S. in 2011: 32,367
There are no words - the numbers say it all! We should be ashamed! Those statistics are a disgrace!
It's time to outlaw automoblies. It's time for "auto-control"! No one has a right to own one anyway!

drjohncarpenter, TJ, bquick, ColinB, Robt, Tony Trout, and others,

Please don't judge RKSNASHVILLE's post without putting it into proper context. It was obvious to me that he was simply trying to make a tongue-in-cheek point. Just because some U.S. citizens are irresponsible and careless/reckless with their guns, doesn't mean that the majority are.

Perhaps RKS could've and should've elaborated more on what is and isn't a true automobile "accident". Many, many so-called accidents could be avoided/prevented if it weren't for drunk drivers.
Here are some statistics that truly are a disgrace in the United States! >> http://www.madd.org/statistics/
* In 2010, 211 children were killed in drunk driving crashes. Out of those 211 deaths, 131 (62 percent) were riding with the drunk driver.

Where's the outrage over alcohol and drunk drivers?!


I sincerely hope this helps ~ Blue River

Re: Another School Shooting -- Children Dead

Thu Dec 20, 2012 6:45 am

Blue River wrote:
RKSNASHVILLE wrote:Number of people killed in Automobile accidents in the U.S. in 2011: 32,367
There are no words - the numbers say it all! We should be ashamed! Those statistics are a disgrace!
It's time to outlaw automoblies. It's time for "auto-control"! No one has a right to own one anyway!

drjohncarpenter, TJ, bquick, ColinB, Robt, Tony Trout, and others,

Please don't judge RKSNASHVILLE's post without putting it into proper context. It was obvious to me that he was simply trying to make a tongue-in-cheek point. Just because some U.S. citizens are irresponsible and careless/reckless with their guns, doesn't mean that the majority are.

Perhaps RKS could've and should've elaborated more on what is and isn't a true automobile "accident". Many, many so-called accidents could be avoided/prevented if it weren't for drunk drivers.
Here are some statistics that truly are a disgrace in the United States! >> http://www.madd.org/statistics/
* In 2010, 211 children were killed in drunk driving crashes. Out of those 211 deaths, 131 (62 percent) were riding with the drunk driver.

Where's the outrage over alcohol and drunk drivers?!


I sincerely hope this helps ~ Blue River


211 drunk driving deaths are nothing compared to 32000. And I don't think there was any tongue in RKS's cheek. Drunk drivers do not intend to kill anyone: although their actions might cause death, it is not what they set out to achieve. Going into a school with a gun generally means you want to kill someone.

Re: Another School Shooting -- Children Dead

Thu Dec 20, 2012 7:52 am

poormadpeter wrote:211 drunk driving deaths are nothing compared to 32000. And I don't think there was any tongue in RKS's cheek. Drunk drivers do not intend to kill anyone: although their actions might cause death, it is not what they set out to achieve. Going into a school with a gun generally means you want to kill someone.

You totally miss my valid points, but I'm not the least bit surprised.

>> http://www.madd.org/drunk-driving/about ... stics.html *
* In 2011, 9,878 people died in drunk driving crashes.
* Every day in America, another 27 people die as a result of drunk driving crashes.

Again - Where's the outrage over alcohol and drunk drivers?!

Re: Another School Shooting -- Children Dead

Thu Dec 20, 2012 9:02 am

Just checked in, after a busy time.

And saw that . . .


Blue River wrote:
Again - Where's the outrage over alcohol and drunk drivers?!


Oh, dear.

rjm (Howdy! :D)

Re: Another School Shooting -- Children Dead

Thu Dec 20, 2012 9:04 am

poormadpeter wrote: Drunk drivers do not intend to kill anyone: although their actions might cause death, it is not what they set out to achieve. Going into a school with a gun generally means you want to kill someone.



I graduated high school in the 80's. And because of the events that's
happened, it made me think back to my school days. Many of us drove
to school once we turned 16. And I can remember seeing guns in the
vehicles in our school parking lot. Out in the open mind you. And many
of us carried knives, though I'm not sure why. And we never had a
problem. It seems the world has become more evil.

I think it is valid to compare alcohol and guns. How many innocent
children would be saved if we brought back prohibition? It's not going to
happen, but think about that when you hear some screaming to take away
our guns.

Don't jump too fast, I've already posted my thoughts on gun control earlier
in this thread. Common sense from all is what we need.

(and this wasn't directed at you poormadpeter)