Off Topic Messages

Re: Another School Shooting -- Children Dead

Thu Dec 20, 2012 9:12 am

RKSNASHVILLE wrote:Number of people killed in Automobile accidents in the U.S. in 2011: 32,367

There are no words - the numbers say it all! We should be ashamed! Those statistics are a disgrace!

It's time to outlaw automoblies. It's time for "auto-control"! No one has a right to own one anyway!




RKS


Ah, I see. Nothing if not predictable. Automobiles are designed to transport people from one place to another. Guns that use high capacity magazines are designed to kill people. They have NO OTHER PURPOSE. Farmers and ranchers got along through some 10,000 years of recorded history without blasting coyotes with 'em (a bitter argument I had on FB with a rural "liberal"). Other than that, they were designed for law enforcement and military use for KILLING PEOPLE. That is there only purpose. That is what they were designed to do. In combat situations. One child had 11 bullets in him. He was 6 years old.

And it is tougher to get a driver's licence in some states than it is to buy a gun of this type.

And, oh, by the way, such a sensitive post. How do you know that no one here knows someone involved in the tragedy? You don't.

rjm

Re: Another School Shooting -- Children Dead

Thu Dec 20, 2012 10:12 am

rjm wrote:.... they [guns] were designed for law enforcement and military use for KILLING PEOPLE. That is there only purpose. That is what they were designed to do. In combat situations.

:facep: Oh, dear.
Where did you get your misguided, naive ideas from?

Sometimes it's necessary for a law abiding citizen to shoot and KILL a criminal crawling through his window in the middle of the night.
How hard is that to understand.

Sometimes a law abiding citizen might want to hunt wild game for food.
How hard is that to understand?

Re: Another School Shooting -- Children Dead

Thu Dec 20, 2012 11:06 am

iplayastrat wrote:I graduated high school in the 80's. And because of the events that's
happened, it made me think back to my school days. Many of us drove
to school once we turned 16. And I can remember seeing guns in the
vehicles in our school parking lot. Out in the open mind you. And many
of us carried knives, though I'm not sure why. And we never had a
problem. It seems the world has become more evil.


No, that's not quite it.

But that paragraph is a little too revealing. My high school's curriculum did not include guns in the parking lot or knives in student's backpacks. You "never had a problem"? Miracles happen every day, it seems.


iplayastrat wrote:I think it is valid to compare alcohol and guns. How many innocent
children would be saved if we brought back prohibition? It's not going to
happen, but think about that when you hear some screaming to take away
our guns.


That's about as valid a position as those "the Earth is flat" believers. This discussion has featured more than a few reasoned arguments that do not demand guns be "taken away." Please read them.


iplayastrat wrote:Common sense from all is what we need.


So true.

Re: Another School Shooting -- Children Dead

Thu Dec 20, 2012 12:35 pm

drjohncarpenter wrote: My high school's curriculum did not include guns in the parking lot or knives in student's backpacks. You "never had a problem"? Miracles happen every day, it seems.


iplayastrat wrote:I think it is valid to compare alcohol and guns. How many innocent
children would be saved if we brought back prohibition? It's not going to
happen, but think about that when you hear some screaming to take away
our guns.


That's about as valid a position as those "the Earth is flat" believers. This discussion has featured more than a few reasoned arguments that do not demand guns be "taken away." Please read them.


iplayastrat wrote:Common sense from all is what we need.


So true.



Well Johnny, I don't think it was a miracle that the people at my high school
weren't hurt. It was different times back then to say the least. Maybe evil was
too all encompassing for you. But, I'd like to hear you give a more thorough explanation
on what you think is the difference between now and then. And I love your use of the
word curriculum. I guess you still like to bait people, even in this thread.

And I've read the reasoned arguments about guns, some of which I liked - even
yours (except politicizing the issue). You might have noticed I may have made
a point or two with my posts. Please read them, or even reread them if you
must.

That's my reply to you...
___________________________________________________________________________

We will see with each passing day this become an issue of division among us.
The politicians are foaming at the mouth. Watch the news and see for yourselves.
Something like this could actually bring us all closer together. But with our good
ole guys and gals in Washington - we don't really have a chance.

Re: Another School Shooting -- Children Dead

Thu Dec 20, 2012 2:54 pm

I also graduated high school in the 80's and I understand the comment about guns being in vehicles at the school.The times have certainly changed and not for the better.I think our whole society has changed for the worse overall.I was brought up with guns.When I was a kid we looked forward to hunting and fishing as our recreation.I was taught how to handle a gun at a very young age.I was taught gun safety and the responsibility of handiling a gun.Guns were not a taboo.My family has always viewed a gun as just a tool.No different than a hammer or screwdriver.I realize many people may not be able to understand that.I have always owned many guns and I always will.I enjoy them.There is nothing wrong with owning many guns.Yet I dont belong to the NRA.I dont agree with all of their posistions.We do need gun laws and some restrictions.There just has to be a sensible approach to it.I still say our biggest problem is a people problem.I feel our society as a whole has become more jaded and violent.People just seem to care less about other people anymore.

Re: Another School Shooting -- Children Dead

Thu Dec 20, 2012 3:41 pm

From today's Independent

A Pic - 016.jpg
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Re: Another School Shooting -- Children Dead

Thu Dec 20, 2012 4:49 pm

Blue River wrote:
rjm wrote:.... they [guns] were designed for law enforcement and military use for KILLING PEOPLE. That is there only purpose. That is what they were designed to do. In combat situations.

:facep: Oh, dear.
Where did you get your misguided, naive ideas from?

Sometimes it's necessary for a law abiding citizen to shoot and KILL a criminal crawling through his window in the middle of the night.
How hard is that to understand.

Sometimes a law abiding citizen might want to hunt wild game for food.
How hard is that to understand?


Blue River, I think rjm had in mind semi-automatics of the type I wrote about in an earlier post - not hunting rifles or shotguns.

Re: Another School Shooting -- Children Dead

Thu Dec 20, 2012 4:57 pm

Blue River wrote:
poormadpeter wrote:211 drunk driving deaths are nothing compared to 32000. And I don't think there was any tongue in RKS's cheek. Drunk drivers do not intend to kill anyone: although their actions might cause death, it is not what they set out to achieve. Going into a school with a gun generally means you want to kill someone.

You totally miss my valid points, but I'm not the least bit surprised.

>> http://www.madd.org/drunk-driving/about ... stics.html *
* In 2011, 9,878 people died in drunk driving crashes.
* Every day in America, another 27 people die as a result of drunk driving crashes.

Again - Where's the outrage over alcohol and drunk drivers?!


BlueRiver you have been back here, what, one day? And already you are wading in with thoughtless posts and political agendas.

Again, let's put this in clear terms.

A man with a gun in a school is intending to kill people. He has not other intention but to kill someone. Lots of people.

A man drink-driving, no matter how stupid he is being, does not intend to kill anyone. He is being stupid.

Guns are intended to kill people with. That is what they are for.

Cars are intended to transport people from A to B.

If your country has a problem with drunk-driving, then perhaps that should be addressed to. But that is now what this thread is about, nor has it ever been what this thread is about, and it sure as hell has no relation to what this thread is about.

Re: Another School Shooting -- Children Dead

Thu Dec 20, 2012 5:40 pm

poormadpeter wrote:Guns are intended to kill people with. That is what they are for.


Peter, while I have no issue with your basic point, some clarification is in order: some guns are designed for the express purpose of killing large groups of people as quickly as possible. Others are designed for hunting wild game. That said, all guns are designed to kill, automobiles are designed to drive.

Re: Another School Shooting -- Children Dead

Thu Dec 20, 2012 5:57 pm

From this week's Private Eye:

A Pic - 018.JPG
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

Re: Another School Shooting -- Children Dead

Thu Dec 20, 2012 5:58 pm

All guns are not made to kill.Many guns have other purposes.One example would be the guns used in Olympic shooting.There are dozens and dozens of guns that are not made for killing.You cant just throw out a general statement that all guns are for killing.It's just not true.I have many guns that have no purpose but to shoot paper and would never be used for anything else.They are made strictly for that reason.It's a complicated issue for sure.

Re: Another School Shooting -- Children Dead

Thu Dec 20, 2012 6:11 pm

Friends, while these kind of conversations need to be taking place in the US and throughout the world, yet if we do not have a conversation about the human heart, about hatred and evil, about caring for each other, about respecting every human being as people of worth and value, then violence will continue. When people put individual rights above what is good for all, tension will exist. If it isn't guns or automobiles then lovers of violence will find some other means to create pain and suffering. Outside changes can only occur when what is on the inside is adjusted. We act on what we think, what we believe. Laws and legislation in and of themselves will never stop acts of violence as human history clearly shows. To be sure, laws and legislation are necessary especially in this case. But, the only way to make the violence end is by the changing of attitudes and hearts.

rlj

Re: Another School Shooting -- Children Dead

Thu Dec 20, 2012 6:52 pm

jak wrote:All guns are not made to kill.Many guns have other purposes.One example would be the guns used in Olympic shooting.There are dozens and dozens of guns that are not made for killing.You cant just throw out a general statement that all guns are for killing.It's just not true.I have many guns that have no purpose but to shoot paper and would never be used for anything else.They are made strictly for that reason.It's a complicated issue for sure.


I meant guns in general Jak. But yeah, some guns are designed for target shooting, so my statement was a bit too much of a blanket statement.

Re: Another School Shooting -- Children Dead

Thu Dec 20, 2012 7:02 pm

This topic is all about the ownership of guns in america. We are really not talking about guns for target shooting or water pistols or whatever. We are talking about the types of guns that those who own a gun in America are most likely to have. And that is a gun aimed to kill. Whether it is being kept for self-defence is neither here nor there - they are meant to kill.

Firstly, on the right to self-defence within your own home. If a criminal has entered your house in the middle of the night while you are asleep, the chance of your gun being of any use to you is actually quite small. The criminal has the element of surprise, is wide awake and has a loaded gun. Unless you are staying awake all night, and have a loaded gun under your pillow each night, then your chance of firing before he or she does is minimal. It might make you feel safer knowing its there, but the likelihood is that it is of little use to you when you come to need it. You wouldn't have the same confidence or experience of using it as the intruder inside your house. I would think that the waving of a gun around at a criminal is more likely to provoke him to shoot you then save your life.

Secondly, on the subject of drink driving versus the owning of guns:

Drink-driving is already illegal. It is also regarded as unacceptable by society, whether someone is harmed or not.

Owning a gun is neither of the above.

No-one here is declaring that shotguns or pistols should not be kept for self-defence. Instead they are saying that owning guns aimed at killing multiple people in a short space of time should be banned for personal use. Anyone saying that the argument has been about anything else is simply trying to derail that argument.

Re: Another School Shooting -- Children Dead

Thu Dec 20, 2012 8:18 pm

poormadpeter wrote:
BlueRiver you have been back here, what, one day? And already you are wading in with thoughtless posts and political agendas.

So you're keeping tabs with how long I've "been back here"? Wow, I didn't realize I was so important to you. Your hatred for me is shamefully obvious, yet it serves a purpose in my favor. Once again you have proven my point about liberals being the least tolerant of people with opposing opinions.

"Wading in with thoughtless posts and political agendas"?! My posts on this thread are very thoughtful with the best intentions with absolutely no political agendas tied to them. I used the M.A.D.D. link as a means of statistics and nothing more.

The only thoughtless and irrational posts on this thread have been from you and a few others that are basing your ideas on emotions instead of practicality and logic. Maybe you should trace your family tree... surely you and rjm are related!



poormadpeter wrote: Guns are intended to kill people with. That is what they are for.

Well, well... I'm certainly glad you don't own a one!! You're really showing your ignorance now (just as you've done many times in the past).

Have a nice day.

Re: Another School Shooting -- Children Dead

Thu Dec 20, 2012 8:21 pm

Blue River wrote:
poormadpeter wrote:
BlueRiver you have been back here, what, one day? And already you are wading in with thoughtless posts and political agendas.

So you're keeping tabs with how long I've "been back here"? Wow, I didn't realize I was so important to you. Your hatred for me is shamefully obvious, yet it serves a purpose in my favor. Once again you have proven my point about liberals being the least tolerant of people with opposing opinions.

"Wading in with thoughtless posts and political agendas"?! My posts on this thread are very thoughtful with the best intentions with absolutely no political agendas tied to them. I used the M.A.D.D. link as a means of statistics and nothing more.

The only thoughtless and irrational posts on this thread have been from you and a few others that are basing your ideas on emotions instead of practicality and logic. Maybe you should trace your family tree... surely you and rjm are related!



poormadpeter wrote: Guns are intended to kill people with. That is what they are for.

Well, well... I'm certainly glad you don't own a one!! You're really showing your ignorance now (just as you've done many times in the past).

Have a nice day.


The practicality and logical stance would be to look at the fact that 20 young children died last week in an incident that would not have happened had that particular type of gun not been allowed to be owned outside of the armed forces. If you have another view that you would like to share that counteracts this argument please do so. Or, better yet, write to the parents of the children involves and explain it to them.

Re: Another School Shooting -- Children Dead

Thu Dec 20, 2012 8:27 pm

jak wrote: I also graduated high school in the 80's and I understand the comment about guns being in vehicles at the school. The times have certainly changed and not for the better. I think our whole society has changed for the worse overall. I was brought up with guns. When I was a kid we looked forward to hunting and fishing as our recreation. I was taught how to handle a gun at a very young age. I was taught gun safety and the responsibility of handiling a gun. Guns were not a taboo. My family has always viewed a gun as just a tool. No different than a hammer or screwdriver. I realize many people may not be able to understand that. I have always owned many guns and I always will. I enjoy them. There is nothing wrong with owning many guns. Yet I dont belong to the NRA. I dont agree with all of their posistions. We do need gun laws and some restrictions. There just has to be a sensible approach to it. I still say our biggest problem is a people problem. I feel our society as a whole has become more jaded and violent.

smt131 Excellent post for the most part, jak. Thank you very much!



jak wrote:People just seem to care less about other people anymore.

Selfish and irresponsible people just seem to care less about other people.

Re: Another School Shooting -- Children Dead

Thu Dec 20, 2012 8:41 pm

Once again there is an assumption here that the man who did the shooting was sane. He clearly was not, and clearly had mental health issues. As did the shooter in the cinema earlier in the year. These are issues that also need to be addressed. However, the fact still remains that, if only guns suitable for self-defence in the home (and sports) were allowed into people's houses, this tragedy would not and could not have happened.

I am still waiting to hear an argument from anyone on here as to why people should be allowed to have automatic or semi-automatic weapons in the home, or what can be achieved by having them in the home. I can understand that people want to protect themselves against a burglar, but the chances of an army invading your home is remarkably unlikely.

Re: Another School Shooting -- Children Dead

Thu Dec 20, 2012 8:58 pm

poormadpeter wrote:Once again there is an assumption here that the man who did the shooting was sane. He clearly was not, and clearly had mental health issues. As did the shooter in the cinema earlier in the year. These are issues that also need to be addressed. However, the fact still remains that, if only guns suitable for self-defence in the home (and sports) were allowed into people's houses, this tragedy would not and could not have happened.

I am still waiting to hear an argument from anyone on here as to why people should be allowed to have automatic or semi-automatic weapons in the home, or what can be achieved by having them in the home. I can understand that people want to protect themselves against a burglar, but the chances of an army invading your home is remarkably unlikely.


Peter, personally I do not think they should have any weapons in the home. We do not have a gun culture in the UK and I am glad that we don't. You won't hear an argument in support of keeping these weapons in the home.... because there is none.

Blue River and yourself need to agree to disagree, clearly there is still a bit of niggle between you. Both of you go post your photo's in the our family thread and make up.

Re: Another School Shooting -- Children Dead

Thu Dec 20, 2012 9:19 pm

daylon wrote:
poormadpeter wrote:Once again there is an assumption here that the man who did the shooting was sane. He clearly was not, and clearly had mental health issues. As did the shooter in the cinema earlier in the year. These are issues that also need to be addressed. However, the fact still remains that, if only guns suitable for self-defence in the home (and sports) were allowed into people's houses, this tragedy would not and could not have happened.

I am still waiting to hear an argument from anyone on here as to why people should be allowed to have automatic or semi-automatic weapons in the home, or what can be achieved by having them in the home. I can understand that people want to protect themselves against a burglar, but the chances of an army invading your home is remarkably unlikely.


Peter, personally I do not think they should have any weapons in the home. We do not have a gun culture in the UK and I am glad that we don't. You won't hear an argument in support of keeping these weapons in the home.... because there is none.

Blue River and yourself need to agree to disagree, clearly there is still a bit of niggle between you. Both of you go post your photo's in the our family thread and make up.


There is little chance of either America banning guns in the home completely OR me and Blue River making up.

Re: Another School Shooting -- Children Dead

Thu Dec 20, 2012 9:21 pm

"No sane person, let alone the 20 year-old behind this horrendous attack, would kill innocent children. Period."

Some people are just plain mean , like those seargeants in nazi camps who used torture (for example hitting them in the nads until they were literary green and blue) , I'm pretty sure those guys weren't insane......and then went home to their families like nothing had happened. Just cuz it was a war doesn't make it justifiable , it was cruel torture.

Dunno who said it but the human being is the most dangerous "animal"

Re: Another School Shooting -- Children Dead

Thu Dec 20, 2012 9:25 pm

poormadpeter wrote: Once again there is an assumption here that the man who did the shooting was sane. He clearly was not, and clearly had mental health issues.

One major side of this issue is that the killer's mother should have been responsible enough to keep her rifle, pistols, and ammo locked away in a safe location where no one else could have gotten to them... especially knowing that she had a son with mental health issues.



poormadpeter wrote: I am still waiting to hear an argument from anyone on here as to why people should be allowed to have automatic or semi-automatic weapons in the home, or what can be achieved by having them in the home. I can understand that people want to protect themselves against a burglar, but the chances of an army invading your home is remarkably unlikely.

No argument from me. I appreciate you now differentiating "automatic/semi-automatic weapons" from the broad-brushed word "guns".

I also think the only ones that should be allowed to legally possess automatic/semi-automatic weapons should be the military and police forces.

Just a couple of hours before the Sandy Hook tragedy occurred in Newtown, Connecticut, a female Memphis police officer was shot and killed when she and fellow officers entered a house to serve a drug arrest warrant. As sad as that is, it's magnified by the fact that she has left behind 4 beautiful daughters ranging from ages 2 to 14.
The following are related stories for anyone interested -
* News >> http://wreg.com/2012/12/14/live-police- ... f-officer/
* Support for fallen officer's children >> http://www.commercialappeal.com/news/20 ... ppeningnow
* Funeral information >> http://www.memphisflyer.com/NewsBlog/ar ... ce-officer

Re: Another School Shooting -- Children Dead

Thu Dec 20, 2012 9:34 pm

daylon wrote:Blue River and yourself need to agree to disagree, clearly there is still a bit of niggle between you. Both of you go post your photo's in the our family thread and make up.

I don't have any personal issues with Peter. Sadly he's the one with the hateful attitude and "niggle". I guess he's just that kind of person.


poormadpeter wrote:There is little chance of either America banning guns in the home completely OR me and Blue River making up.

There's your proof, daylon. Something is eating away at him, but it's his problem, not mine.

I'm certainly glad he's not a gun owner living next door to me! Yikes!

Re: Another School Shooting -- Children Dead

Thu Dec 20, 2012 9:38 pm

The biggest advantage to having a semi automatic pistol in the home or on you're person is the effectiveness.I would bet that hardly anybody here would understand the differences of single and double action.Its a question of mechanics.A semi automatic pistol is easier to control.There is absolutely nothing wrong with owning a semi auto pistol.I can tell you one thing for sure.Its better to have a gun and not need it than to need it and not have it.I have been licensed to carry a concealed firearm for 26 years.Thankfully I have never pulled my gun or pointed it at anyone.Its the last thing I would want to do.I also sleep with a loaded gun next to the bed.That gun is mandatory in my house.Do a search and look at the numbers of home invasions in this country.I live near Charlotte and its crazy.We just had one a few miles from my house and Im way out in the country.The coupe got tied up and had to sit there while there while some guys ransacked the house.A gun gives you a chance.Anybody who breaks into a home whie occupied is a dangerous threat and needs to be eliminated.They put themselves in harms way.If you break into my house the guy in my avatar will be the first to greet you.I will be along momentarily.Good luck.Thats just the country we live in.The guns are already here.We need to ask why so many people have no regard for other people.The shooter at the school was insane.My main concern are the people who would think nothing of taking someone's life or injuring them for just a wallet or a few bucks.Have you guys looked at whats going on in Chicago?They have the toughest gun laws anywhere.Yet it's a shooting gallery.The laws don't apply to thugs.I can't imagine not having a gun at the ready if I lived there.If you live in a different country I don't think you can comprehend the situation here in the USA.

Re: Another School Shooting -- Children Dead

Thu Dec 20, 2012 9:41 pm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster