Surprise! U.S. economy improving better than anyone expected

poormadpeter,

The U.S. employment growing at an anemic 39,000 jobs is horrible. It can and has been so much better during other economic downturns (recessions).


At the same point during the Reagan recovery, the economy had created more than 9.5 million new jobs. Also, in just one month during the Reagan economic recovery boom, September, 1983, the economy created 1.1 million new jobs. That’s a real recovery.

Since Obama stepped into office, 7.5 million people have left the workforce.

Since Obama took office, we've had 42 months of unemployment over 8%, the longest period of unemployment that high since the Great Depression.

And this recession has been regarded as probably the worst since the great depression....which might provide you with the answers you don't want to hear.

Good quality, reasoned discourse -- all around.

Look: it all comes down to tomorrow night, I think. This will be major. I can't imagine the nerves! I hope the POTUS can handle it: I couldn't. It's all about how they "come over." "What" they say won't matter much: you will be able to tell a winner with the sound off. I'm serious. And it's a Town Hall, so they have to "connect."

Tougher than hockey, or baseball, or what-have-you.

rjm

Let's just all agree with RKS. He obviously thinks he's right 100% of the time. All republicans do. Democrats are bad, and wrong 100% of the time. Long live RKS and the GOP!

Again the crucial mistake of treating this as just another economic downturn. There is no way the financial crisis of the early 1980s, despite the fact that unemployment at one point reached at a staggering 13 percent in that downturn (under Saint Ronald), compares to this. This was a complete disruption of the supply of capital. Further, Obama was not gifted with the benefit that Reagan had with interest rates. A very common way of dealing with receptions is for the federal reserve, an autonomous body not run by the administration, to cut short term rates. As short term rates were basically at zero when Obama took office and remain there, that option was closed in terms of spurring the economy. Given the depth of the crisis, the potential for serious economic calamity- far, far, far beyond what we've seen these past few years- Obama's record is fairly strong. Where he's failed is not spending enough on infrastructure but I know you guys hate that because it's sensible.

The idea of gas and oil autonomy for the US is out of touch with any sort of reality. The companies that own and manipulate these resources are internationally based and set the price on an international basis. Even if the US were to tap every available resource in the nation, there is no guarantee that gas would stay here and not go to the highest bidder in another country unless of course you would nationalize the gas and oil companies which I know you don't want to do. It's an international market and a highly volatile one.

When economists calculate inflation, they purposely leave out food and energy costs because those prices are so subject to fluctuation. Any kind of disruption in the supply line- droughts, fires, coups, insect invasions, you name it- can cause those prices to temporarily sky rocket. However, they usually come back down to Earth just as fast as they went up. So really the price of gas has little place in an assessment of Obama's performance.

I guess what you want is the energy industry itself writing the regulations as they did under Bush. Because that worked out so well.

Last edited by likethebike on Tue Oct 16, 2012 5:04 am, edited 2 times in total.

intheghetto wrote:

Which 'founding principles' would you happen to be talking about?

Those enumerated in the U.S. Constitution - read it here: http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charte ... cript.html

Where in the founding principles of the US Constitution does it say anything about capitalism?

I never said it was. I said the solution to our problems is, as has always been, capitalism and the free markets. We should always follow the Constitution and if we did the Federal Government would not being doing much of what it is doing today.

Since the founding principles are actually based on law and governing how would capitalism 'restore' them? What in the world are you talking about?

If we followed the U.S. Constitution, the Law of the land, as I stated above, the Federal Government would never be able to do what it currently does. The government should only do what it has authority to do as stated in the Constitution - read the 10th Amendment. Thus the "free market" (capitalism) would do what the government has no authority to do.

The U.S. Constitution LIMITS the Federal Government - Not empower it.

It gives the power to the States, i.e. the people.

Have you actually read them, or do you just see them on conservative campaign buses?

The question is: Have you read the U.S. Constitution? Because if you had, you could not possibly be in favor of Obama and his big government agenda.

Also how can capitalism fix an economic problem when we already LIVE in a capitalist society?

While we do live in a "free market" society, when government gets too involved, too big, with too much taxation, spending, and regulation - is it really a "free market" anymore? When the government chooses winners and losers (Solyndra comes to mind), we cease to have a free market.

If there's one thing we can probably all agree upon is that we like capitalism or the 'free-market'.

Sooo, you're NOT voting for Obama then, correct?

So please tell me, since you imply that capitalism is gone then what kind of system do we live under? It's because of those taking advantage of the capitalist system that we went through an economic mess.

As stated above, Capitalism isn't "gone" as you describe, but it has been handcuffed - by the Federal Government. There will always be those who try to "take advantage" of the system and there are laws on the books to punish them. But that doesn't mean you throw out the baby with bath water. That doesn't mean we scrap what has worked for a couple of hundred years because of a few bad people.

There are many reasons for the economic mess and both political parties share in the balme as well as some so-called "capitalists".

So please before you do any heavy hitting political references, you might want to do your homework and read a book or two. In fact, you don't even have to get up and go to your bookshelf you can look it right up on your 'internets'.

I'll just read my pocket version of the U.S. Constitution - maybe the lawmakers in Washington should do the same since they did take an oath to uphold and defend it.


There, I've answered all your disingenuous questions - now go read your U.S. Constitution or better yet go here: http://constitution.hillsdale.edu/ --- It's a free online U.S. Constitution course.




likethebike wrote:

It's not just that they can't stand to admit progress Obama but they want to make him a failure. Mitch McConnell said as much.

Progress? Really? I've already proven in this thread and the previous thread that there has NOT been progress in the economy - the numbers show it plain as day. The American people are living it everyday.


In case you missed it:

254690_376625715747186_1942115311_n.jpg

Mitch McConnell, the Republicans, or whoever didn't cause Obama to fail - OBAMA and his policies caused Obama to fail. The American people are not stupid and know who the real cause of the continued problems really is and they will vote that problem out on November 6.


RKS

Thank you for your incredibly long-winded, out of context argument. Are you proud of yourself? That was alot of typing for a statement that has little or nothing to do with reality.

Pocket version of the Constitution? No wonder. Probably in the same pocket as the play-book I presume.

likethebile wrote:

The Constitution says nothing about capitalism.

You didn't read my post above.

Capitalism by the way is not a religion it's an economic footprint based upon the general idea that allowing people to cater to their self-interests is the most efficient engine for sustained economic growth.

Allowing free people to make their own way is what America is all about - you call it self-interest - I call it FREEDOM! It has what has made America great and it is what brings people to America from all over the world.

Capitalism and the free market system (which is the system in America) IS what creates wealth for everyone who wishes to participate in it. It IS what has made America the greatest and most wealthy and generous nation on earth!

Many would rightfully argue that the sort of pure capitalism that the Randians keep crying about actually came to abject failure in the Great Depression. And it was Keynesian economics that led the way out.

False. What got America out of the Great Depression was not Keynesian (The New Deal), it made it worse. What got America out of the depression was WWII.

The Constitution, by the way, gives the federal government the authority to regulate interstate commerce which in today's world is almost all commerce. Plus, it gives the government the power of taxation and there is no provision limiting what that money is spent upon.

Yes there is. The Federal government does NOT have unlimited power. The powers of the government are limited by the Constitution. Obama himself said that the Constitution tells us what the government can't do but not what it CAN do.

Not bothering with evidence, the Republicans, of course, would like to bring the same failed strategies to the US.

You're kidding, right? It's not the Republicans but the Democrats who want to go down the European road of bigger and bigger government - more and more spending and entitlements. The Republicans are trying to reverse this.

In the US alone, something like $2.9 trillion in wealth vanished in two days in the fall of 2008. It went poof out of the air, it was gone.

Well, not exactly. There was a huge loss of wealth but there wasn't a complete collapse because of the bailout - which both then Senator Obama and McCain voted for in the fall of 2008, to prevent a collapse.

That's about a quarter of the debt gone in two days,

The debt? Do you mean the national debt? It didn't go anywhere.

That's the honest basis on which to judge this recovery.

You're not being totally honest with yourself if you believe the stuff you post.




RKS

Paul Sweeny wrote:

Let's just all agree with RKS. He obviously thinks he's right 100% of the time. All republicans do. Democrats are bad, and wrong 100% of the time. Long live RKS and the GOP!

It's about time, Paul!

I never said you or anyone had to agree with me 100% of the time. But you guys on the left ignore the facts even when they are staring you right in the face.

You guys throw out a bunch of 'stuff' and I refute it with facts and you don't like it.

Oh well - like the old saying goes - "you can lead a horse to water. but you can't make him drink".

Keep drinking the Obama kool-aid.

Thank you for your incredibly long-winded, out of context argument. Are you proud of yourself? That was alot of typing for a statement that has little or nothing to do with reality.

That's all you got I guess.



It's very apparent to everyone who is reading these posts that those on the left - intheghetto - likethebike and others do not like or approve of and want nothing to do with the U.S. Constitution or the founding principles put forth by the Founding Fathers.

You are just like Obama himself - You hate the way America was founded and what she stands for. The principles of small - limited government as enumerated in the U.S. Constitution, Freedom, free markets and capitalism, and power to the people (not the government) as described in our founding documents.

Keep voting for your big government, socialist democrats and those who want to "change America as we know it" (Barack Obama - his words - not mine).


If you really want socialist eutopia, why not move to Europe?


Again, the American people have seen what Obama is really about and they don't like it. They want NO MORE of it. The American people showed their dis-pleasure for Obama, the democrats, and their policies in November 2010 much to the surprise of everyone on the left and it will happen again on November 6, 2012.


So 3 weeks from tomorrow we will see what happens.

Until then, you guys can continue the discussion with yourselves.


RKS

Thank you for your incredibly long-winded, out of context argument. Are you proud of yourself? That was alot of typing for a statement that has little or nothing to do with reality.

That's all you got I guess.

Yeah, that's all I got. Whatever kind of response you were aiming for...you missed.

It's very apparent to everyone who is reading these posts that those on the left - intheghetto - likethebike and others do not like or approve of and want nothing to do with the U.S. Constitution or the founding principles put forth by the Founding Fathers.

When you mention the US Constitution and the Founding Fathers do you actually know of or have a picture of this in your head without looking it up on the internet? Alot of people in your...uh..'camp' are always referring to the Founding Fathers, and it seems to me that they know about as much about the 'Founding Fathers' as they do about Fourth of July barbeques and paper Uncle Sam hats. All style, no substance. Just another reference to hollow self-righteous patriotism. If you REALLY understood what America was all about...which really is opportunity, you would see that nobody gets anywhere in a society of people that are ready to throw each other to the wolves. There were things once upon a time like the WPA that in eight years of existence provided a million jobs a year to the unemployed, but of course to you that's giving hand-outs to a bunch of lazy losers. Instead you'd rather buy into the illusion that the wealthy are going create all those great jobs. Trickle down. Is that all you think you deserve, crumbs from the top? Well, you keep waiting for those people to create those jobs, and be prepared to wait and wait some more.

You are just like Obama himself - You hate the way America was founded and what she stands for. The principles of small - limited government as enumerated in the U.S. Constitution, Freedom, free markets and capitalism, and power to the people (not the government) as described in our founding documents.

And another comment firmly rooted in reality, folks! Yeah Obama 'hates' America. Sure. And you 'love' America. 'Power to the people'? What people would those be? The 1% that are the wealthiest in the country?

Keep voting for your big government, socialist democrats and those who want to "change America as we know it" (Barack Obama - his words - not mine).

Ok, let me get this straight. You're actually going to put stock in a man that was recorded at $50,000 a plate fund raiser talking about how the '47%' of America, those lazy slobs, could go piss up a rope. And then all of the sudden, goes back and says 'oh, oh, no I was so wrong'. You as a full grown adult are actually going to buy into that? And you say that Obama hates America? Are you kidding me?

If you really want socialist eutopia, why not move to Europe?

Oh yeah, well why don't you move to the Land of Misfit Toys.

Again, the American people have seen what Obama is really about and they don't like it. They want NO MORE of it. The American people showed their dis-pleasure for Obama, the democrats, and their policies in November 2010 much to the surprise of everyone on the left and it will happen again on November 6, 2012.

So 3 weeks from tomorrow we will see what happens.

Until then, you guys can continue the discussion with yourselves.

Hey..whatever you vote for you deserve. Good luck with that.

Paul Sweeny wrote:

Let's just all agree with RKS. He obviously thinks he's right 100% of the time. All republicans do. Democrats are bad, and wrong 100% of the time. Long live RKS and the GOP!

It's about time, Paul!

I never said you or anyone had to agree with me 100% of the time. But you guys on the left ignore the facts even when they are staring you right in the face.

You guys throw out a bunch of 'stuff' and I refute it with facts and you don't like it.

Oh well - like the old saying goes - "you can lead a horse to water. but you can't make him drink".

Keep drinking the Obama kool-aid.

Thank you for your incredibly long-winded, out of context argument. Are you proud of yourself? That was alot of typing for a statement that has little or nothing to do with reality.

That's all you got I guess.



It's very apparent to everyone who is reading these posts that those on the left - intheghetto - likethebike and others do not like or approve of and want nothing to do with the U.S. Constitution or the founding principles put forth by the Founding Fathers.

You are just like Obama himself - You hate the way America was founded and what she stands for. The principles of small - limited government as enumerated in the U.S. Constitution, Freedom, free markets and capitalism, and power to the people (not the government) as described in our founding documents.

Keep voting for your big government, socialist democrats and those who want to "change America as we know it" (Barack Obama - his words - not mine).


If you really want socialist eutopia, why not move to Europe?


Again, the American people have seen what Obama is really about and they don't like it. They want NO MORE of it. The American people showed their dis-pleasure for Obama, the democrats, and their policies in November 2010 much to the surprise of everyone on the left and it will happen again on November 6, 2012.


So 3 weeks from tomorrow we will see what happens.

Until then, you guys can continue the discussion with yourselves.


RKS

No what we don't agree with is your interpretation of the Founding Documents. Being that the nation has fought for 200 years over those documents what gives you absolute insight????

Again nothing in constitution about free markets or capitalism. If capitalism and freedom are interchangeable, what's happening in China?

Your "facts" are selectively chosen and lack context. Again, the basic fact is we were losing jobs at a record clip and now we are adding jobs.

The facts are that the US did not enter depression and Osama Bin Laden the primary foreign enemy is now dead. Say "Thank you President Obama."

If you really want socialist eutopia, why not move to Europe?

Or Canada. We might even take you RKS. Alberta is about your speed

How long will President Obama take the blame for George Bush's fu*k ups?

How long will President Obama take the blame for George Bush's fu*k ups?

As far as RKS and Fox "news" are concerned...forever. By the way, I've watched Fox "news" to see what all the fuss is about. It's terrible. And crazy, but I digress.

How long will President Obama take the blame for George Bush's fu*k ups?

As far as RKS and Fox "news" are concerned...forever. By the way, I've watched Fox "news" to see what all the fuss is about. It's terrible. And crazy, but I digress.

Yes and it's really pathetic that people are actually stupid enough to put another George Bush-Romney back in there. When do people learn? Never I guess.
Like I said : "A Working Man Voting Republican Is Like A Chicken Voting For Colonel Sanders". Period

How long will President Obama take the blame for George Bush's fu*k ups?

Hopefully just a few more weeks.

I'm glad President Obama weighed in on the Mariah-Minaj dispute.

And speaking of his ladies, I see that Mrs. Clinton is taking the blame
for the attack on the US Consulate in Benghazi. Wonder what's been
promised for such an action? Interesting times indeed.

How long will President Obama take the blame for George Bush's fu*k ups?

Good question, with tomorrow's debate at hand. (It's almost "tomorrow" right now, and is at Hofstra, where the debate will be. One of my old stamping grounds.)

I hope he doesn't take it, tomorrow night. He acted so submissive last time, intimidated . . . or something I can't understand, because the next morning he was back campaigning, and "himself" again.

He has to face that man, and call him out. Like Biden did, but in his own way. Actually DEBATE! I just can't forget Jon Stewart, who will be on shortly (I watch the second run every night): "Look up, dude!"

rjm

Oh well - like the old saying goes - "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink".
Keep drinking the Obama kool-aid.

Yeah, RKS, it reminds me of the liberals' theme song that each and every one of them sing to their lord and saviour, Obama,
before going nighty-night... "If I'm A Fool"...

If I'm a fool for loving you
then that's just what I want to be
They're saying I am just your clown
and any fool could see
That you're just having fun
and you're not in love with me
The things they're saying may be true,
but there's something they can't see
If I'm a fool for loving you
then that's just what I want to be

If I'm a dreamer, let me dream
If I'm your clown I'll steal the show
If things are not the way they seem
please don't ever let me know
If I am blind it's because
I just don't want to see
If I'm a fool for loving you
then that's just what I want to be.

In Obama's name I sing, Amen.

Oh well - like the old saying goes - "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink".
Keep drinking the Obama kool-aid.

Yeah, RKS, it reminds me of the liberals' theme song that each and every one of them sing to their lord and saviour, Obama,
before going nighty-night... "If I'm A Fool"...

If I'm a fool for loving you
then that's just what I want to be
They're saying I am just your clown
and any fool could see
That you're just having fun
and you're not in love with me
The things they're saying may be true,
but there's something they can't see
If I'm a fool for loving you
then that's just what I want to be

If I'm a dreamer, let me dream
If I'm your clown I'll steal the show
If things are not the way they seem
please don't ever let me know
If I am blind it's because
I just don't want to see
If I'm a fool for loving you
then that's just what I want to be.

In Obama's name I sing, Amen.

Another brilliant thought...

You should toss out more of your funny remarks, that's all they're good for.

Another brilliant thought...
You should toss out more of your funny remarks, that's all they're good for.

<--- liberals

Another brilliant thought...
You should toss out more of your funny remarks, that's all they're good for.

<--- liberals

Hey look at that! When there's nothing left to say break out the cartoons.

Is that your 'Devil Went Down to Georgia' impression? Nice one!

Another brilliant thought...
You should toss out more of your funny remarks, that's all they're good for.

<--- liberals

Hey look at that! When there's nothing left to say break out the cartoons.

That's exactly right... there's nothing left to say to you.
Now get back to smoking your weed and singing your Obama theme song.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As for everyone else, let's get back to reality...

This election is about one thing: Barack Obama's record.
Or should I say, his disastrous record — one that is leading our country to economic ruin.

—23 Million Unemployed or Underemployed

—47 Million on Food Stamps

—5.5 Million Homes in Crisis/Foreclosure

—$4500 Drop in Household Income

—$5.5 Trillion of New Debt

—$716 Billion in Medicare Cuts

—$2.6 Trillion for Obamacare

—$1.9 Trillion in New Taxes in Obama’s Budget

—100% Increase in Gas Prices

Four more years of this? You've got to be kidding!

No depression. Bin Laden is dead. Health care. Equal pay for equal work. Economic growth. Credit card reform, bank reform. What a disaster.

Bin Laden is dead... Economic growth... What a disaster.

What a disaster is right!

1. What economic growth?!
2. Go tell Ambassador Christopher Stevens about Bin Laden being dead.
The Obama regime was/is too stupid to understand that terrorism continues!

This election is about one thing: Barack Obama's record.
Or should I say, his disastrous record — one that is leading our country to economic ruin.

—23 Million Unemployed or Underemployed

—47 Million on Food Stamps

—5.5 Million Homes in Crisis/Foreclosure

—$4500 Drop in Household Income

—$5.5 Trillion of New Debt

—$716 Billion in Medicare Cuts

—$2.6 Trillion for Obamacare

—$1.9 Trillion in New Taxes in Obama’s Budget

—100% Increase in Gas Prices

likethebile wrote:

The Constitution says nothing about capitalism.

You didn't read my post above.

Capitalism by the way is not a religion it's an economic footprint based upon the general idea that allowing people to cater to their self-interests is the most efficient engine for sustained economic growth.

Allowing free people to make their own way is what America is all about - you call it self-interest - I call it FREEDOM! It has what has made America great and it is what brings people to America from all over the world.

Capitalism and the free market system (which is the system in America) IS what creates wealth for everyone who wishes to participate in it. It IS what has made America the greatest and most wealthy and generous nation on earth!

Many would rightfully argue that the sort of pure capitalism that the Randians keep crying about actually came to abject failure in the Great Depression. And it was Keynesian economics that led the way out.

False. What got America out of the Great Depression was not Keynesian (The New Deal), it made it worse. What got America out of the depression was WWII.

The Constitution, by the way, gives the federal government the authority to regulate interstate commerce which in today's world is almost all commerce. Plus, it gives the government the power of taxation and there is no provision limiting what that money is spent upon.

Yes there is. The Federal government does NOT have unlimited power. The powers of the government are limited by the Constitution. Obama himself said that the Constitution tells us what the government can't do but not what it CAN do.

Not bothering with evidence, the Republicans, of course, would like to bring the same failed strategies to the US.

You're kidding, right? It's not the Republicans but the Democrats who want to go down the European road of bigger and bigger government - more and more spending and entitlements. The Republicans are trying to reverse this.

In the US alone, something like $2.9 trillion in wealth vanished in two days in the fall of 2008. It went poof out of the air, it was gone.

Well, not exactly. There was a huge loss of wealth but there wasn't a complete collapse because of the bailout - which both then Senator Obama and McCain voted for in the fall of 2008, to prevent a collapse.

That's about a quarter of the debt gone in two days,

The debt? Do you mean the national debt? It didn't go anywhere.

That's the honest basis on which to judge this recovery.

You're not being totally honest with yourself if you believe the stuff you post.




RKS

I'm sorry missed this the last time. I got it confused with the lower posts. Sometimes it's hard to tell the difference when you scroll the page.

Anyway what you're saying about capitalism is religion RKS. It's not the key to wealth and treasure and freedom. It's a modest road map for a successful economic system.

To say that World War II ended the Depression only verifies Keynes. As Paul Krugman has pointed endlessly but what was World War II but a huge public works program? And it's worth noting that economists who opposed Keynes at the time said the Depression would resume when the War ended. No such thing happened. Keynes predicted the built up demand would result in a boom period and the thoughtful use of his suggestions helped spur the Western world to the greatest expansion of wealth (not only in how much was created but who had it) in history. No prognosticator was right so often and it's why the Western world followed Keynes road map for most of the '20th century to fabulous success. No one, no one, no one in the mainstream ever questioned it until Reagan and Thatcher got in office and started dismantling the Keynesian infrastructure. And no one who relies on evidence instead of religion questions it now after 30 years of disastrous trickle down economics which have decimated the American middle class.

Your comments about the crisis, demonstrate your lack of understanding of what happened. Wealth disappeared from the system due to fraud and irresponsible lending and trading done by unregulated banks and insurance companies. The very liquidity of the system was threatened. And yes the bailout, however poorly designed, saved that liquidity. However, it did not mitigate the impacts. Instead of lending the bailout money, the banks were sitting on it. People themselves in a system that had been fundamentally threatened were saving money. There was no money out there. This was the exact formula that created the Great Depression. No businesses started and business closed because there was no demand. The President and congress took affirmative action to ensure there was some demand. All the bailout did was save the liquidity to ensure investments were safe, to ensure that the monetary system still meant something. It did nothing to ease economic contraction.

This is what created the crisis, not European style debt, entitlements and social programs. The European countries who got in trouble like Greece were those that used American sponsored tricks (Merrill Lynch) to hide their debt, and failed to raise enough revenue to cover the interest on their debts. Their ability to pay was in question. This has never been the case in the US and it's still not the case.

My comment about the amount of the money was that the money that vanished, poof it was gone, was equal to about a quarter or a fifth of the total debt. Estimates range as high as 40 percent of the world's wealth was lost in the crisis.

This was not an economic downturn. This was a complete collapse of the system.