Go Hillary!!!

[KingOfTheJungle]

Look,
I have no doubt Hillary would be a more competent president than Bush, any of the candidates (Democrat or Republican- with the exception of Rudy or Huckabee) would be. The man is simply the worst.

My concerns with Hillary are:
1) She's pissed off a large slice of the Democratic base (including myself) by not so subtly playing on racism to try to marginalize Barack Obama. This has seriously turned many black voters off of the Clintons in a way I don't see being easily repaired in the near future. (i mean Obama won 81% of the black vote in South Carolina, where only WEEKS before she was LEADING Obama in the black vote in SC polls). Black voters are an integral part of the democratic coalition. They don't turn out- the Dems lose.

2) Obama appeals strongly to Independents and even moderate Republicans, and he speaks comfortably in the language of faith. He could seriously grow the progressive coalition, which would reshape the political dynamics of the country. Hillary has ZERO support among these groups.

3)If McCain is the Republican nominee, a Hillary victory seems unfeasible. He currently outpolls her in both Ohio AND Florida. Electorally, I don't see how Hillary pieces together 270 votes.

4) The Clintons care only about their own political advancement. If she does manage to win, we'll get tepid and incremental movement of progressive policies, the same thing we got with Bill Clinton. Clinton didn't have the ability to move people behind his ideas, and as a result almost EVERY benefit from his Presidency has been COMPLETELY wiped away by the next President. His legacy as of now is nil, and a Hillary win would open the doors for this to happen again in 4 to 8 years. The country deserves better.

That is why I am supporting Barack Obama with everything I've got.

[drjohncarpenter]

Ask Ann Coulter -- she's one of your heroes.

I'd rather handle this one on my own.

Lucky us. It is interesting to note you dropped Ann Coulter's web address from your signature.

You're catching on, albeit slowly. Now try to remove that blow hard, company man Hannity's site next.

[EagleUSA]

Lucky us. It is interesting to note you dropped Ann Coulter's web address from your signature.

I have my faves, but just can't list 'em all at once. If you pay close enough attention, you'll find that I rotate several addresses of interest. Try a few. They might prove a nice alternative to your Daily Kos.

[TJ]

Not to mention her dumb ass supporting her cheating husband. How can you trust someone that isn't even control of her own life? How exactly am I to look up to her as a WORLD LEADER? Most people she visits will laugh in her face, and the ones that don't, will help to manipulate her(and that means us) into believing that we must bow down to the world super power socialistic/communistic ways.

Not even sure what that meant. Are you saying she is a socialist/communist? If so, it's you that needs to read up on history and develop a better grasp of what the terms really mean. As for people laughing in her face, I don't think that's the case. The Clintons are well respected on the world stage and far more popular than Bush. I don't say that to antagonise. It's just the truth.

She is a lying ass, who is dangerous. This isn't right wing as the sqwaking parrots like to throw down again and again, this is just my judgement. I never liked her, and never will.

The thing is, I think you are holding her up to higher standards than Bush because he is a Republican and she is a Democrat. It's a natural instinct to ignore the faults of those we support and rant on endlessly about the failings of those we don't support. The plain fact is that had Clinton done some of the things Bush has done you would have been less forgiving. We're all guilty of that to an extent, but it leads to pretty unproductive debate.

[KHoots]

You make some good points, TJ, and did it in a way that's not abrasive, which is not the norm around here!

I have never been a fan of Hillary Clinton. I just don't trust her, and find her to be phony and conniving. It has to be a stinging blow to see Obama receive the endorsement of the Kennedy's, John Kerry, etc., but I think they're on the right track in terms of whom they support.

Having said that, I don't begrudge her for supporting her husband in the Lewinsky affair. That had to be a miserable time for her, yet she (for the most part) took the high road, which was not an easy thing to do on such a public stage. So, I'll give her some latitude on that. She really was stuck in a no-win situation.

[genesim]

Little Darlin,

Watch the show, and then get back to me in regards to hand to heart. Anyone that thinks that Bush "is the worst president" has no clue when it comes to who has filled the american presidency before him. A good show to learn from though, in this regard. Check it out.

Tj,

Are you saying she is a socialist/communist?

Lets see, what exactly do you call Universal Healthcare. Do you feel this is socialistic in nature? How about

I like the idea of giving every baby born in America a $5,000 account that will grow over time, so that when that young person turns 18 if they have finished high school they will be able to access it to go to college or maybe they will be able to make that downpayment on their first home.

Communist lets see...straight from her mouth

I want to take those profits (of Exxon-Mobil) and put them into an alternative energy fund that will begin to fund alternative smart energy, alternatives that will actually begin to move us toward the direction of independence.

Perhaps you should read up on her some more, because I got plenty more. And anything you come back with Bush(and there is plenty, I am not in denial), doesn't change the fact that she is all the more radical. Perhaps you need to read up on history....or get your head out of the sand.

Here is some other great quotes:

I certainly think the free-market has failed.

It's time for a new beginning, for an end to government of the few, by the few, and for the few...... And to replace it with shared responsibility for shared prosperity.

(We) ....can't just let business as usual go on, and that means something has to be taken away from some people.

What makes you think the Clintons are respected??? Because a bunch of our competitors say so? Well that is your opinion, and the news media is great at shaping alot of opinions..but it doesn't make it true.

As for me holding Bush up to a higher standard because of pollitical view.....well first of all yes, of course. A don't have huge support for socialistic programs that keep minorities down, and I don't think that government handouts are good for anything, but hurting the common man. That said, Bush has made quite a few decisions that I don't agree with.

BUT I hold Bush up to higher standards for a number of reasons. I don't feel Bush lied as so many people THINK they can prove. Just because he thought, pushed etc that WMD were in Iraq, and we didn't find them, doesn't make him a liar. It doesn't mean they weren't there, and it doesn't mean his intentions were bad.

Hillary on the other hand has lied about a great many things. So TJ, I do take fault with your assumption that all my reasons are based on party. Actually none of them are. I like the view, and if a Democrat changes that view(or at least aren't as radical) then I will support that party, and maybe take the lessor of two evils. Wacko Hillary is not it for me.

Vote away though if you support her, I respect that, just don't expect me to. But I would appreciate you keeping your assumptions about me personally out of it. That is disrespectful in every way, no matter how polite Khoots thinks it is. You don't know how I would have reacted to Hillary or Bill because you don't know anything about me. Matter of fact, I didn't say SQUAT about Bill while he was president the whole time, because despite my huge disagreement to the complete ass that he was as president, I did at least respect his title while he was president, and I respected the people that supported him.

It's a natural instinct to ignore the faults of those we support and rant on endlessly about the failings of those we don't support. The plain fact is that had Clinton done some of the things Bush has done you would have been less forgiving.

[/quote][/quote]

Funny, but it looks like you have some guilt there. The difference between you and me, is that with a little bit of research you will find that your statement has no basis in fact when it comes to me. I have voiced my disdain for Bush on many occasions. That said, I would personal attack someone(like making assumptions with no basis in fact), as you have done, because they don't agree with me.

[TJ]

Tj,

Are you saying she is a socialist/communist?

Lets see, what exactly do you call Universal Healthcare. Do you feel this is socialistic in nature?

Frankly, no I don't. There are some things that fall into the 'unalienable human right' category and health care is one of them.

How about

I like the idea of giving every baby born in America a $5,000 account that will grow over time, so that when that young person turns 18 if they have finished high school they will be able to access it to go to college or maybe they will be able to make that downpayment on their first home.

Communist lets see...straight from her mouth

How is that Communist? It doesn't dissuade any person from going forth and becoming a captain of industry. What it does do is help alleviate pressures on low income families to provide higher education for their kids. Sounds very unlikely that it's a policy that would ever be implemented, but I wouldn't put the Communist label on it.[/quote]

I want to take those profits (of Exxon-Mobil) and put them into an alternative energy fund that will begin to fund alternative smart energy, alternatives that will actually begin to move us toward the direction of independence.

Sounds like an odd proposition, but likely a quote out of context. Do you really believe that Hillary would force any company to direct their profits in a way dictated by the Government? A proportion of their profits maybe? Profits from a specific action maybe?

Your other quotes aren't even worth addressing as they are innocuous and easily manipulated by those scaremongering to mean more than she meant.

What makes you think the Clintons are respected??? Because a bunch of our competitors say so? Well that is your opinion, and the news media is great at shaping alot of opinions..but it doesn't make it true.

Because I live outside the US and I certainly know how the Clintons and Bush are viewed here. You can argue whether it's fair or not, but Bush is hugely unpopular on the world stage and the Clintons are not. I was talking specifically about how they are judged abroad.

BUT I hold Bush up to higher standards for a number of reasons. I don't feel Bush lied as so many people THINK they can prove. Just because he thought, pushed etc that WMD were in Iraq, and we didn't find them, doesn't make him a liar. It doesn't mean they weren't there, and it doesn't mean his intentions were bad.

Truth is, I also believe Bush and Blair expected there to be WMDs in Iraq because it was considered a no brainer at the time. That was the consensus of the intelligence community around the world, however much people now try to play with the facts and suggest they stood alone with that opinion. There was certainly debate about the extent of the programmes, but no serious suggestion that he had none from those that are supposed to be well informed. There were 12 years of UN Sanctions for a reason after all.

But I would appreciate you keeping your assumptions about me personally out of it. That is disrespectful in every way, no matter how polite Khoots thinks it is. You don't know how I would have reacted to Hillary or Bill because you don't know anything about me.

There was no disrespect intended. I read your posts on Katrina though and if you really believe you would have so strenuously defended Bill or Hillary under those circumstances, I think you are deluding yourself.

It's a natural instinct to ignore the faults of those we support and rant on endlessly about the failings of those we don't support. The plain fact is that had Clinton done some of the things Bush has done you would have been less forgiving.

Funny, but it looks like you have some guilt there. The difference between you and me, is that with a little bit of research you will find that your statement has no basis in fact when it comes to me. I have voiced my disdain for Bush on many occasions. That said, I would personal attack someone(like making assumptions with no basis in fact), as you have done, because they don't agree with me.

As I said, we are all guilty of it to some extent. It's natural. I try to make a conscious effort to avoid it though. I mean while I don't think Bush has been a good President and I don't generally share his politics, I don't jump on him for everything he does. How many Clinton supporters would give him a pass on the WMD point? Not many. I'm just keenly aware that if Clinton had thought there were WMD and taken such action, Democrats would be defending the position as a genuine mistake. And there was no personal attack. I was making quite a general point about about how easy it is and common it is for party affiliation to lead to bias. The media plays a strong role in that too and we'd be far better off if the news channels avoided the petty point scoring that they pass off as debate.

[genesim]

Of course you don't think it is socialist...especially when it fits your parameters. Ever heard the ends does not justify the means. Hillary swims in it.

Now pay attention closely...the first two examples were SOCIALIST statement, and the next statement followed COMMUNIST.

Learn how to read, and then we can go from there.

Now I hate to generalize, but you really do seem like somebody that likes to twist meaning to gain your own agenda, so maybe the rest of what you have written isn't worth looking into.

Correct the mistake, and then I will pick up where I left off. As it stands, joe schmoe coming on this thread will see my words twisted, and think that is what I meant. Like your simplistic mind saying....I THINK IT IS COMMUNIST THAT CHILDREN ARE CARED FOR!!!

Simpletons...gotta love them.

There was no disrespect intended. I read your posts on Katrina though and if you really believe you would have so strenuously defended Bill or Hillary under those circumstances, I think you are deluding yourself.

Wow jerky boys still don't get my point even way back then. Follow me really really closely....I wasn't defending the president, I was putting the blame where it deserved to be put. THE FRICKIN' GOVERNER OF THE STATE. I do not believe in MARITIAL LAW TILL THERE IS JUST CAUSE. I DO NOT BELIEVE THE PRESIDENT SHOULD DROP IN NILLY WILLY WITHOUT THE ABSOLUTE KNOWLEDGE THAT STATE LAW HAS BROKEN DOWN. We live in America not russia...of course a person not living here and not required to pass the constitution may be quite lost in this capicity. Why actually read what I have written, when you can make it up as you go!

[TJ]

OK at least I was polite. I won't bother responding properly to that last post as it was so littered with crap and I have better things to do than have a discussion with someone who can't be civil.

[genesim]

Thats how liars act. Instead of owning up to your mistake, you would rather write off everything I wrote.

Gee how do you think I would feel about you saying that caring for children is communist?

The only thing littered with crap is your personal attacks against me from the first post.

[TJ]

Thats how liars act. Instead of owning up to your mistake, you would rather write off everything I wrote.

Gee how do you think I would feel about you saying that caring for children is communist?

The only thing littered with crap is your personal attacks against me from the first post.

Listen Geno, I'm neither a liar nor a simpleton and I hadn't stooped to using terms of abuse to get my point across. Too bad you had to.

I see the part you were referring to now and yes the Communist point belonged to the quote directly below, not above. My mistake. Happy now? It's possible to make the simple correction without being an aggressive ass tho isn't it??. Is that how you always choose to clarify things with people? Anyway, it didn't drastically alter the overall point of my post.

And yes I always fully understood your stance on Katrina. You always get very indignant as if no one understood why you were saying it. Newsflash - people understood, they just didn't agree with you. And I'll say again, there is no way you would have gone to the same lengths to defend Clinton if he had done exactly the same thing. There's a reason the vast majority of the country slammed him for it and a reason he himself apologised for not acting soon enough. You seem the last man clinging on to the constitutional argument.

Now let's close this pointless argument. Given the sad event of the last week on this board, it's really not the best time for people to be attacking each other over nothing.

[KingOfTheJungle]

Here's a pic of Obama campaigning in Kansas. Look at the wall behind him.

[Rob]

But, why do they have Elvis and chocolate pie in the same picture? As far as I know, Elvis didn't even like chocolate pie.

What are they trying to say here?

[FVH]

Why bother to even discuss this?
When you read about milliondollar lawsuits against an AO (Adults Only) computergame (GTA: San Andreas) where you can find hidden elements of sex - a game that otherwise mostly consists of policekillings, drugdealing and prostitution. All activities of which - of course - are a hell of a lot more tolerable than sex between adults. Or TV companies that get sued for a million to show a bare butt for a few seconds (NYPD Blue). Or a nation that tilts completely over a partly exposed breast (Janet Jackson at the Super Bowl, 2004) you realize that you're talking about a country that has far worse troubles to deal with than the minor issue of who's running it or not. Hehe... The land of the brave and the free...

The next presidency will only yield a reprise of what we've seen before - a change of head-of-state merely means running the country from one ditch to another.

[Rob]

Why bother to even discuss this?

Because I want to know whether or not Elvis liked chocolate pie.....especially with the Betty Crocker crust.

[FVH]

Why bother to even discuss this?

Because I want to know whether or not Elvis liked chocolate pie.....especially with the Betty Crocker crust.

I think we can assume that he did!

[Pete Dube]

Rob, Elvis was rather fond of sheperd's pie. At least according to Cybil.

[EagleUSA]

FVH wrote:

The land of the brave and the free...

No one is asking you to live in America. In fact, we don't want you. Go mind your own country's business, which consists primarily of whaling, drinking and allowing your own government to butt f*** you out of half your paycheck.

Norway sucks, at least according to one of your own...

[ColinB]

... Anyone that thinks that Bush "is the worst president" has no clue when it comes to who has filled the american presidency before him.

Well, all right.

How about "He's the worst American President that I can remember"

Better ?

[Francesc]

OK at least I was polite. I won't bother responding properly to that last post as it was so littered with crap and I have better things to do than have a discussion with someone who can't be civil.

Thanks TJ for being polite

[Francesc]

FVH wrote:

The land of the brave and the free...

No one is asking you to live in America. In fact, we don't want you.

That's harsh. Thank God you dont have too much say who comes or not ...

[midnightx]

Anyone that thinks that Bush "is the worst president" has no clue when it comes to who has filled the american presidency before him.

Well, he is certainly a strong challenger for the title.

[EagleUSA]

Francesc wrote:

Thank God you dont have too much say who comes or not ...

Who said I didn't?

[FVH]

FVH wrote:

The land of the brave and the free...

No one is asking you to live in America. In fact, we don't want you. Go mind your own country's business, which consists primarily of whaling, drinking and allowing your own government to butt f*** you out of half your paycheck.

Norway sucks, at least according to one of your own...

He he... What an extraordinarily good expample. Was that the best you could find? All he was capable of was to illustrate that he can't spell worth a sh*t.
You should have tried harder. You can use this in the future: Don't go to Oslo if you can avoid it. But if you must, stay clear of the hords of prostitutes that have "imported" themselves from just about every country on the planet. And when you've reached the inner city - try to avoid the beggars and junkies lying around everywhere as if they were some sick advert for.... Wait a minute... Just forget it. I realized that it started to fit the description of any American city.

Oh yeah, there are many things about this country to put the finger on. But at least we keep ourselves with free healthcare for everyone as opposed to your country. You can criticize "my" country as much as you like - but I just don't care. I have never understood "patriotism", it seems stupid and it clearly clouds the ability to see anything wrong.
And I won't come to live there - relax. Especially now that a schizophrenic doesn't want me there (you said "we"). After all, I wouldn't fit in. I hate the concept of god, prayers for this and that, jesus and all the religious rites and compulsions you seem to love so much, and my BMI is still well under 300.

[Francesc]

Francesc wrote:

Thank God you dont have too much say who comes or not ...

Who said I didn't?

didn't is past tense ...