Off Topic Messages

Mon Aug 07, 2006 12:49 am

ColinB wrote:

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Gene, the reason Colin can post such a deceptive and one-sided cartoon about the Israelis is because they're Israelis, and he has nothing to fear.

The reason that no one posts such a cartoon about the Jihadists is because such a person will likely have his family searching half of London trying to locate their severed head.

And that my friends,in a nutshell, is why the attempts to portray the sides in this conflict as morally equal is absurd.

Mon Aug 07, 2006 12:52 am

Oh Scatter,

That is so ridiculous.

Who told you all that?

You dont know what you are talking about.

Me clueless. :roll:

You really do need a history lesson.

Mon Aug 07, 2006 12:54 am

Please be so kind as to show the MB your superior grasp of the history of the conflict by pointing out my errors.

I've already pointed out yours.......

Mon Aug 07, 2006 1:24 am

How can an American go on about treaties being broken when the US Government broke the treaty the gave to the Native Americans that they wouldnt take their lands but ended up doing so anyway?

You go on about terrorists but that is exactly what the Israelis are in some peoples eyes.

If Israel gave back all those innocent men they took decades ago and gave Palestine its own state which it deserves then there wouldnt be all this bloodshed.

If the IRA and the British Government can come to an agreement then why cant they sort out this mess in the Middle East?

Most of the Israeli army are reservists that have no training in warfare and just shooting people whoever they are.
Last year a young British man who was a peacemaker and was holding up a white flag was shot dead in cold blood by an Israeli reservist.

The only reason this made headlines was that he was British.

Please dont tell me that Israel wouldnt kill civilians on purpose?

Why does there have to be all this bloodshed on both sides.Its just so sad and could be sorted out without violence.

Mon Aug 07, 2006 2:11 am

Sean Ryan wrote:How can an American go on about treaties being broken when the US Government broke the treaty the gave to the Native Americans that they wouldnt take their lands but ended up doing so anyway?

What exactly does what happened 150 years ago on the other side of the globe from the area we are discussing have to do with the price of bombs in Lebanon??
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In a word.......nothing. A clumsy attempt at dancing around an issue of which you have no knowledge whatsoever obviously. Fred Astaire you ain't.

The Lebanese agreed to stop providing a launching point for terrorists. They lied and are now paying the price.


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You go on about terrorists but that is exactly what the Israelis are in some peoples eyes.

Everybody is something in someone's eyes.......doesn't make it true. If you bothered to educate yourself about the topic you wouldn't have to rely on what terrorists believe about Israel. Or worse yet, agree with them.

Thus far you haven't demonstrated where my facts are wrong. I'm pulling for you to do better though.........


If Israel gave back all those innocent men they took decades ago and gave Palestine its own state which it deserves then there wouldnt be all this bloodshed.

Really??? Interesting, since the terrorist states said that if Israel would only give back the Golan Heights, the killing would stop.

Did it?? NO.

Then they said if Israel gave back the Gaza Strip, the killing would stop. Did it?? NO.

Then they said if Israel would cease building settlements the killing would stop. Did it??? NO.

Then they said if Israel would dismantle the settlements the killing would stop. Did it??? NO.

BTW.......the path to a two-state solution was offered to Ararat in 1995 by Israel and he rejected it. So.........once again, you demonstrate that you have no knowledge of the situation.

Is this the best you've got??


If the IRA and the British Government can come to an agreement then why cant they sort out this mess in the Middle East?

That's along the lines of "If they can put a man on the moon, why can't they make a glazed doughnut that doesn't get my hands all sticky?"

An interesting question, but it has nothing to do with the Middle East.


Most of the Israeli army are reservists that have no training in warfare and just shooting people whoever they are.

The Israeli Defense Force is regarded as one of the three top trained and equipped militaries on the planet. Again......you demonstrate that you have no idea what you are talking about.

Last year a young British man who was a peacemaker and was holding up a white flag was shot dead in cold blood by an Israeli reservist.

The only reason this made headlines was that he was British.

Please dont tell me that Israel wouldnt kill civilians on purpose?

Well, if people willfully get into the middle of a battleground with a white flag and feel that the piece of cloth like Superman's cape will protect them.......they basically committed suicide via ignorance.

[color=blue]As for your (as normal) factually unsupported contention that the IDF kills civilians on purpose, how do you explain the fact that before any assault the IDF covers the area with leaflets, on air announcements in Arabic, and warnings via bullhorn if necessary that an assault is coming. They warn the innocent to flee to reduce casualties as much as possible.

Of course, this directly leads to the deaths and injuries if IDF soldiers since the element of surprise is gone and the terrorists can prepare. But they do it anyway to minimize innocent deaths.

BTW.......so happy to hear that the targeting of civilians is so abhorrent to you. Of course, that is the entire modus operendi of the terrorists. They lob bombs and missiles into civilian neighborhoods without the warnings the IDF give. Also into such military targets as pizza parlors, schools, busses, open air markets, etc.

Yet I notice that, as much as you claim to hate the targeting of civilians, you do not praise Israel for their warnings to the innocent at the peril of their troops and mission........nor do you condemn the terrorists you support who target ONLY civilians. Interesting........just an oversight on your part I'm certain.


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Why does there have to be all this bloodshed on both sides.Its just so sad and could be sorted out without violence.

Sad indeed...........but the real world doesn't work the way we wish sometimes.

Mon Aug 07, 2006 5:46 am

Everything Scatter said on the 6 pages of this thread is true. I have family in Israel and things are like Scatter says. No more, no less.

Javier

Mon Aug 07, 2006 6:08 am

Thank you Javilu...........I hold no animus towards those who disagree. I simply wish folks would bother to actually KNOW something about the subject before they post.

The bane of modern culture is the increasing propensity to FEEL rather than THINK.

Mon Aug 07, 2006 12:58 pm

javilu wrote:Everything Scatter said on the 6 pages of this thread is true. I have family in Israel and things are like Scatter says. No more, no less.

Javier


Hahah, what a joke! :lol: :lol: :lol:


Sincerely MB280E

Mon Aug 07, 2006 4:30 pm

MB280E:
I think Scatter is right, you're not very informed on the subject. But it's not your fault. I live in Buenos Aires, Argentina and parciality and misinformation is everywhere. Very few show the thruth of how Israel is thereathened and atacked all the time and that all it tries to do is defend itself from the hostile environment it is in.
The israeli ambassador in Argentina explained it very well with these words:
"If the arabs put their weapons down, there will be peace. if Israel put their weapons down, Israel will disappear"

Regards from Buenos Aires

Javier

Mon Aug 07, 2006 7:37 pm

This continues to be a good debate for the most part, but try as we may, it will never be the clearly simple case of "right and wrong" that some would have us believe.

As American, I share the expressed feelings of former Bush (I) administration officials who are aghast at how Bush II has so openly taken sides in the Middle East. What a debacle of a foreign policy as many conservatives as well as general Republicans in the US are increasingly arguing....joining those who were critical from the get-go.

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Here is an interesting article by someone clearly not a member of the so-called "pacifist" or "loony" left: former CIA analyst Ray McGovern, co-founder of Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity..

Bush's Fiascos in Iraq
By Ray McGovern, BuzzFlash

Posted on August 7, 2006, Printed on August 7, 2006

The word does not require an "E," but the world desperately needs one-E for EXIT from the march of folly toward wider war brought on by plural US policy blunders: in Iraq, Israel, and Lebanon, for starters, and now threatening to spread to Syria and Iran. Fortunately, Webster's does allow the insertion of an "E" and that's precisely what we must do now. We need to make a prompt exit from the policy fiascoes that have brought violence and chaos to the Middle East.

If we do not look beyond the carnage of the last few weeks, weigh the reaction of others in and outside the region, and reflect on Washington's role in precipitating the violence, I fear there will be no exit. A brief review may be instructive. Who led our march into this modern-day Valley of Death?

Ideologues and Amateurs

Let's begin with the new people and policies that President George W. Bush brought in with him when he took office on Jan. 20, 2001. Who urged on him what Michael O'Hanlon of Brookings calls "the huge mistake of giving Israel a blank check?" Who played the leading roles in encouraging Bush to let slip the dogs of war on Iraq?

Honors for the leading role in the category of fiasco goes, ex aequo, to Vice President Dick Cheney and Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld-the "Cheney-Rumsfeld cabal" described by Colin Powell's chief of staff at the State Department, Army Col. Lawrence Wilkerson (ret.). At an award ceremony, the cabal no doubt would offer copious thanks to other key actors-first and foremost, to ideologues Paul Wolfowitz and Douglas Feith. The Oscar for best actress in a supporting role goes to Condoleezza Rice.

It was five and a half years ago that Rice was formally initiated into the neo-conservative brotherhood as an auxiliary. Her most important service was greasing the skids for the brothers to try to shoehorn into reality their ambitious but naive dreams of using "preemptive" war to ensure total US/Israeli domination of the Middle East. At the new administration's first National Security Council meeting on Jan. 30, 2001, then-national security adviser Rice stage-managed formal approval of two profound changes in decades-long US policy toward Israel-Palestine and Iraq. Thanks to Paul O'Neill, confirmed as Treasury Secretary just hours before the NSC meeting, we have a first-hand account.

The neoconservatives had already gotten to the new president, for he began with the abrupt announcement that he was ditching the policy of past presidents who tried to honest-broker an end to the violence between Palestinians and Israelis. Rather, the president declared that the US would tilt sharply toward Israel. Most important, Bush made it clear that he would let then-Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon resolve the conflict as he saw fit. The US would no longer "interfere."

Powell: Dead Man Walking

O'Neill described Secretary of State Colin Powell as "startled" at hearing this. Powell warned that US disengagement would unleash Sharon and the Israeli army. But Bush shrugged dismissively, adding, "Sometimes a show of strength by one side can really clarify things." Just seven weeks later with Sharon in Washington, the president again shocked those present when, out of the blue, he turned to him and said, "I'll use force to protect Israel," according to Sheryl Gay Stolberg writing in today's New York Times.

After his requiem for the decades of US sweat and blood expended on the effort to work out a solution to the Israel-Palestine conflict, the president turned immediately to Iraq. Rice led off by reciting the received wisdom of the neocons (I still wonder how many of them actually believed it) that "Iraq might be the key to reshaping the entire region." Whereupon, at her request, then-CIA director George Tenet displayed a grainy overhead image of a factory in Iraq that he just happened to have with him. Tenet thought the factory "might" be associated with a chemical or biological weapons program, but no such association could be confirmed. No problem. The conversation immediately turned from this typically Tenet-ative "intelligence" to the question of which Iraqi targets to begin bombing. Remember: this watershed meeting of the NSC took place more than eight months before 9/11 and more than two years before the invasion of Iraq.

O'Neill, just inducted into the cabinet but not into the neoconservative brotherhood, was understandably nonplussed. He says he found it all quite curious and left the NSC meeting convinced that, for reasons never fully explained, "getting Hussein was now the administration's focus."

The twin decision to (1) "tilt" more decidedly toward Israel and (2) prepare to attack Iraq-were right out of a blueprint drafted in 1996 by a small group of Americans and Israelis, including arch-neoconservatives Richard Perle and Douglas Feith. Shortly after the Jan. 30 NSC meeting the two were given influential posts in the Department of Defense directly under Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and his deputy, Paul Wolfowitz-Perle as chair of the powerful Defense Policy Board, and Feith as Undersecretary of Defense for Policy (#3 in the Defense hierarchy). The policy-prescriptive blueprint, titled A Clean Break: A New Strategy For Securing the Realm, had been prepared originally for Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu, but its recommendations proved to be too extreme even for him. No matter. As the new Bush administration took shape, Perle and Feith retrieved the mothballed study, made an end-run around the hapless Powell, and sold it to Vice President Dick Cheney, Rumsfeld, and Bush.

Dr. Rice Becomes Dr. No

There is a certain poetic justice in the fact that Rice, now secretary of state, is reaping the whirlwind. She has been trapped in the extremely awkward position of having to say "No" to a ceasefire, causing the biggest PR disaster since Abu Graib. And she still managed a smile when the Israelis, adding insult to injury, mocked her by openly violating the limited cease-fire they had promised. One might think that, no matter how many times the president may tell her "Attagirl," Rice might feel thoroughly used, mocked, and humiliated.
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Not so. Still an innocent abroad, Rice has cheerfully played piano accompaniment for the neocon hit song "Reshaping the Entire Region," and has dutifully adhered to the neocon script in describing the violence in Lebanon and Israel as "the birth pangs of a new Middle East." On Friday, President Bush added this stanza: "This is a moment of intense conflict...yet our aim is to turn it into a moment of opportunity and a chance for broader change in the region."

Bush's text elicited uncharacteristically acerbic ridicule from Richard Haass, who served under Bush as head of policy planning at the State Department. (Yes, this is the same Haas who in July 2002 begged Rice for an appointment with the president, whom he wanted to warn of the folly of invading Iraq. Rice reportedly told him, "The decision's been made; don't waste your breath.") Referring to Bush's remarks on Friday, Haass, now head of the Council on Foreign Relations, laughed at the president's optimism, according to a report by Peter Baker in Monday's Washington Post. "That's the funniest thing I've heard in a long time," said Haass. "If this is an opportunity, what's Iraq? A once-in-a-lifetime chance?"

It is far from funny. Rather, it is amateur hour again at the White House, with Rice acting as the president's personal secretary under instruction to do what Cheney, Rumsfeld, and the neocons tell her to do. The results have been entirely predictable. Seldom before has Washington been so widely seen to be joined at the hip to an Israel on the rampage. Seldom has US stock in the region sunk to such depths as it did last week, with civilian casualties in Lebanon piling up (literally) and with Rice continuing to join Israel in rejecting appeals for an immediate ceasefire on grounds it must be "sustainable." Policy and performance alike have been myopic in the extreme, and have resulted in an embarrassing US setback from which it will take decades to recover. The ramifications are region-wide; but looking at Lebanon alone, one of my former CIA colleagues observed:


"The irony in all this is that Israel has an interest in a multicultural Lebanon and not an Islamist Lebanon, and the high hopes for the former are being dashed."


Meanwhile Back in Baghdad-More "Last Throes"

In terms of those killed, Iraq was even more violent than Lebanon over the past week, but Western media put Iraqi developments on the back burner.

On July 25, President Bush told the press, "Obviously, the violence in Baghdad is still terrible, and therefore there needs to be more troops." Bush observed that "Conditions change inside a country. And the question is: Are we going to be facile enough (sic) to change with [them]." Some 4,000 US troops are being sent from elsewhere in Iraq to reinforce Baghdad. Sen. Chuck Hagel (R, NE) noted on July 28 that this "reverses last month's decision to have Iraqi forces take the lead in Baghdad...and represents a dramatic setback for the US and the Iraqi government." Highly respected military analyst Anthony Cordesman has expressed the same view.

--Secretary Rumsfeld approved Gen. George Casey's request to extend the Iraq tour of a 3,700-strong Stryker brigade, which had been scheduled to return to the US this summer, and the Pentagon announced that the number of US troops in Iraq rose last week to 132,000-the highest level since May. In a command performance in June, Gen. Casey reportedly gave Bush a plan for withdrawing 7,000 troops before the mid-term elections-a plan that probably will be overtaken by events.

--Whether he intended to or not while fielding questions from the press, national security adviser Stephen Hadley, virtually redefined the mission of US troops. Addressing what he called the "new challenge," Hadley said, "This isn't about insurgency. This isn't about terror. This is about sectarian violence." The number of sectarian killings has doubled since the start of the year. Press reports indicate that many Sunnis are even afraid to go out to retrieve the bodies of relatives in Baghdad's overflowing morgues, lest they too become prey to Shia militia. The very large unanswered question: Is that why our troops lie exposed in the middle-to stop Iraqis from killing one another?


--Richard Armitage, who was Secretary Colin Powell's deputy at the State Department, warned of the danger that bringing in more troops at this late stage may prove to be "too little too late, and that the US will turn into a bystander in an Iraqi civil war it does not have sufficient resources to prevent." Western press reports suggest that this is already the case-with virtually everyone below the rank of general admitting that inadequate troop strength remains a major problem. At the same time, it is universally recognized that requesting more troops would sound the death knell for one's career.


--One important Shia leader has objected to the deployment of additional US forces to Baghdad, and Shia militias are increasingly clashing with US troops. The Shia militias are also using more effective, armor-piercing IEDs. US officers have expressed concern over what the Shia might do in reaction to the US green light for Israeli attacks on Lebanon. And Col. Patrick Lang (USA, ret.) has expressed grave concern over the vulnerability of US supply lines from Kuwait into the Iraqi heartland, and Iran's ability to stir up the Shia in that area.


--Former adviser to the US occupation authority in Iraq, Michael Rubin, now with the American Enterprise Institute has said, "The Shia-led Interior Ministry is out of control." And there is a strong move afoot in the Iraqi Parliament to replace the interior minister.


Otherwise, everything is going just fine-or so the Bush administration and FOX News Channel would have us believe. It has become increasingly difficult to put a positive spin on all this. Now and again, out of desperation, a PR person will reach for the all-too-familiar chestnut, "We have not once been defeated in battle."

Many years ago, Army Col. Harry Summers learned the hard way not to use this one. At the end of the war in Vietnam, Summers received orders to negotiate with North Vietnamese Army Col. Tu the terms of the withdrawal of US forces from Vietnam. Summers could not resist reminding Tu, "You know you never beat us on the battlefield." Col. Tu paused for a moment; "That may be so," he said, "but it is also irrelevant."

Thirty-three months have gone by since we Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity (VIPS) branded this war "unwinnable." The word has now been banned from use by "patriotic" folks here in Washington; not even my Microsoft Word dictionary recognizes it.

Our early conclusion on the war required no rocket science-just a modicum of experience in guerrilla warfare and Vietnam. It is now time for all of us Americans who care about justice, sanity, and peace to draw the appropriate conclusions and summon the courage to stick our necks out, in whatever way we can, to stop the madness. It is time, in other words, to walk the talk.

For it is simply not right to ask "volunteer" troops from the inner cities and farms of this nation not only to play referee between armed Iraqi factions, but also to "stay the course" for us-out of the forlorn hope they might just get lucky and succeed in "reshaping the entire region."


Former CIA analyst Ray McGovern is co-founder of Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity.
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Mon Aug 07, 2006 8:08 pm

God´s chosen people, no that´s really something...he´s either mad, drunk or perhaps simply an assh**e...!

And javilu, I think I have all the information I need to what´s going on here, thank you very much!


Sincerely MB280E

Tue Aug 08, 2006 3:29 am

MB, it's a shame that you can't keep your word for even a page worth of posts. I wish you would and cease from this thread as your ignorance and bigotry (God's chosen people crack wasn't anti-Semitic either, right?) are appalling.

No wonder you drive a German car :lol:

Tue Aug 08, 2006 7:32 am

Do we know that the guy is ignorant and bigoted? His comments are ill-advised, perhaps (especially if he was in the US) but is there any substance to be found among critics of Israel? I'm betting...yes!

Tue Aug 08, 2006 2:45 pm

Yeah, perhaps I´m ignorant, but I sure as hell can´t ignore theses facts; Lebanon 1000 + dead, Israel about 95. The world keeps quiet and looks the other way yet again... And only yesterday I saw and heard that Olmert speaking about this war not being against Lebanon but against Iran and Syria...has he become Bush´s twin-brother now...? Anyway, it looks like the US announced war on Iran and Syria is about to start. Ignorant...? Yeah, maybe I am...


Sincerely MB280E

Tue Aug 08, 2006 3:07 pm

Yeah, perhaps I´m ignorant, but I sure as hell can´t ignore theses facts; Lebanon 1000 + dead, Israel about 95.


Measuring the justness of a cause by the relative number of deaths is preposterous and, yes, ignorant.

Consider Germany's 5,500,000 military deaths vs. the United States' 407,300 and the United Kingdom's 382,600 in World War II.

I guess that means the Nazis were really, really right and we were really, really wrong.

Tue Aug 08, 2006 3:29 pm

The justness of a cause...right...and who´s ignorant?? Yet another Bush scholar from the great state of Texas :wink:

That nazi bit at the end of your post doesen´t really need any comments, does it?

Sincerely MB280E

Tue Aug 08, 2006 4:50 pm

I think, with all due resopect and excuse my english, that saying that Hezbolla is right because in Lebanon more people died than in Israel because of this war is very stupid and ignorant.
Iran and Syria are still laughing about it. They don't give a damn about the lebanese, since they were the ones that gave the order for the Hezbolla atack, knowing it would start a war, and keeping the atention away from Iran's nuclear plan. Even muslim countries like Egypt and Jordan and a couple more see with good eyes that Israel beat the hezbolla.

Javier

Tue Aug 08, 2006 5:10 pm

javilu wrote:Iran and Syria are still laughing about it. They don't give a damn about the lebanese, since they were the ones that gave the order for the Hezbolla atack


And this of course you know for a fact, right? What you call the Hezbolla attack being the kidnapping of that Israeli soldier...?


Sincerely MB280E

Tue Aug 08, 2006 6:07 pm

No sense even continuing..........MB offers no facts that dispute what has been offered on this thread. Of course, that's because he can't.

I'm content to let it lay where it does, and let the posters judge who knows what they're talking about, and who speaks out of his posterior orifice.

Tue Aug 08, 2006 8:27 pm

Scatter, you're right, the fact that he can't respond thoughtfully to a simple three-sentence post suggests to me he's woefully underprepared for this discussion.

I checked out of this topic a while back when Mauric- started suggesting his own "Final Solution" for the Jews. (Those comments were deleted, by the way.)

Hard to believe that even that craziness was more intellectually engaging than the current opponent's.

I think I'll go waste my time somewhere else.

(By the way I have to type Mauric- to keep the board from automatically changing Magoo's name.)

Tue Aug 08, 2006 9:49 pm

[quote="elvissessions.com"]I checked out of this topic a while back when Mauric- started suggesting his own "Final Solution" for the Jews. (Those comments were deleted, by the way.)quote]

One dares to speak out against the wrongdoings of Israel and suddenly you get "holocaust" thrown in our face. If that is what you call being prepared for a fruitful (?) debate you´re nuts and if you don´t have anything better to come up with you should keep your piehole shut! This "supporting Israel no matter what they do to other people" policy of yours is turning out to be some parody...and before you start accusing me for being an Arabic lover or something...forget it, it´s no use.


Sincerely MB280E

Wed Aug 09, 2006 2:19 am

Could you take a moment to point out anything in any of my posts in this thread that is relevant to the bizarre remarks you just made?

If you're referring to my comment about Mauric-'s remarks. Those are his words, not mine.

He actually did propose a new "Final Solution" for the Jews. In fact, that was his thread topic. If you consider that outrageous, then direct your remarks his way, not mine.

Furthermore, if you'll check several of my posts in this thread you'll see quite clearly that I went out of my way to say I do not support Israel "no matter what."

But of course checking what other people have written and having your facts straight would require a level of preparation for this discussion that clearly is beyond you.

Wed Aug 09, 2006 10:54 pm

http://news.sky.com/skynews/video/video ... 06,00.html


Sincerely MB280E

Thu Aug 10, 2006 12:02 am

MB280E wrote:http://news.sky.com/skynews/video/videoplayer/0,,31200-galloway_060806,00.html


Sincerely MB280E


:lol: :lol: :lol:

Oh man!!!!!! That's hilarious!!!!!! You're actually pimping GEORGE FRIGGIN' GALLOWAY as your source for credibility??? :lol: :lol: :lol:

It all makes sense now (which is more than I can say for Galloway). Did you first discover him on Big Brother, or when he was claiming he saw UFOs???

Maybe on your next All Elvis post you can tell us how much you admire Gail Brewer Giorgio too!!!!! Roughly equivalent on the insanity scale.

Well, thanks MB!!!!! I haven't laughed that hard in ages. I was going to further puncture what little remained of your credibility, but you went and did it yourself

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Thu Aug 10, 2006 12:33 am

Never expected you to understand any of this anyway...


Sincerely MB280E