Off Topic Messages

The Founding Fathers and their thoughts about religion

Wed Mar 15, 2006 2:53 am

Maybe they were just liberal atheists, who knows


"And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in showing that religion and Government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together."--James Madison in a letter to Edward Livingston in 1822

"The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity. Nowhere in the Gospels do we find a precept for Creeds, Confessions, Oaths, Doctrines, and whole carloads of other foolish trumpery that we find in Christianity." - John Adams

"Here it is that the religion of Deism is superior to the Christian Religion. It is free from all those invented and torturing articles that shock our reason or injure our humanity, and with which the Christian religion abounds. Its creed is pure, and sublimely simple. It believes in God, and there it rests."--Thomas Paine, _Of_The_Religion_of_Deism_Compared_With_the_Christ ian_Religion_

"Religion I found to be without any tendency to inspire, promote, or confirm morality, serves principally to divide us and make us unfriendly to one another."--Benjamin Franklin

"Christianity...(has become) the most perverted system that ever shone on man. ...Rogueries, absurdities and untruths were perpetrated upon the teachings of Jesus by a large band of dupes and imposters led by Paul, the first great corrupter of the teaching of Jesus." --Thomas Jefferson, _Six_Historic_Americans_ by John E. Remsberg

"The clergy converted the simple teachings of Jesus into an engine for enslaving mankind and adulterated by artificial constructions into a contrivance to filch wealth and power to themselves...these clergy, in fact, constitute the real Anti-Christ." -- Thomas Jefferson

"History I believe furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purpose."--Thomas Jefferson to Baron von Humboldt in 1813, _The_Writings_of_Thomas_Jefferson_Memorial_Edition _, edited by Lipscomb and Bergh, 14:21

"One of the embarrassing problems for the early nineteenth-century champions of the Christian faith was that not one of the first six Presidents of the United States was an orthodox Christian."--The Encyclopedia Brittanica, 1968, p. 420


Thomas Jefferson writing to John Adams, April 11, 1823
"One day the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in the United States will tear down the artificial scaffolding of Christianity. And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as His father, in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter."


Wed Mar 15, 2006 3:22 am

They are not YOUR Founding Fathers
you little anti-American worm.

So piss off and stay out of the USA.
Last edited by Graceland Gardener on Wed Mar 15, 2006 3:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

Wed Mar 15, 2006 3:29 am

:roll:

Is it that all you have to say?

Wed Mar 15, 2006 3:32 am

You only come to this MB to bash America
and to LOL "inform" us about American history.



edited but not an apology.
Last edited by Graceland Gardener on Wed Mar 15, 2006 4:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

Wed Mar 15, 2006 4:02 am

Calm down, please.

As I have said do many times, I don´t hate America. I love that country and a lots of people who live there. But I don´t like the conservative wingnuts like you, that´s obvious.

Those "damn" Germans are the largest group among your population, so show some respect for the ancestors of so many Americans. The US helped Europe during both World Wars as other European nations (namely France or Spain) helped to te achievement of American independence.

I wrote the thread to take any credit from the ones who say that the US was founded on religion. It was not. People like those have hijacked the values and ideals America was founded on.

Just my 2 cents

Wed Mar 15, 2006 4:22 am

Okay. Everything's cool.

Peace and love.

God bless you.

Wed Mar 15, 2006 4:33 am

Interesting quotes and somewhat suprising to see the degree of hostility shown towards Christianity. Some of it sounds like very modern commentary.

Wed Mar 15, 2006 4:36 am

America wasn't founded on religion. But the Judeo-Christian moral precepts were the bedrock upon which the country was founded. Jefferson and some of the other founding fathers were deists. But they were products of their times. It was the age of enlightenment, and deism was all the rage at that time due to the influence of the German school of Biblical scholarship. In any event deism still posits a creator - which even the deist founders acknowledged as God. Deism is not consistant with atheism, but allows for theism. And this deism was not our modern day version of an impersonal 'force.' The majority of the founders were Christians. To claim Washington wasn't Christian is erroneous. And even Jefferson's deism is more complicated than the atheist and deist internet sites would have you believe.

Wed Mar 15, 2006 4:39 am

The Vatican is more hypocritical and more dangerous and more corrupt and more controlling and more domineering than Washington, DC is, when it comes to Religion.

Wed Mar 15, 2006 12:45 pm

Your ignorance is truly staggering. I noticed you base your ASSumption on the quotes of 5 men. Very impressive.

Did you know that around 50 of the 55 signers of "The Declaration of Independence" were orthodox, deeply committed, Christians? The other three all believed in the Bible as the divine truth, the God of scripture, and His personal intervention. This "Godless" Congress is the same Congress that formed the American Bible Society immediately after creating the Declaration of Independence. The Continental Congress voted to purchase and import 20,000 copies of Scripture for the people of this nation. Thomas Jefferson MANDATED the study of the Bible in American classrooms, and as one of his first public acts after election sent Bibles to the American Indians......paid for by the Congress.

Did you know that the Deists of that day were not like the Deists of today?? Deism in thier day simply meant that GOD created the world, but He chose not to intervene after His creation was finished.

In other words........they believed in God, too.


What you fail to realize in your omnipresent ignorance,SpanishLies, is that most of the quotes you referenced (if taken IN CONTEXT) were railing against ORGANIZED RELIGION and the efforts to establish STATE SANCTIONED denominations (precisely what their ancestors had fled from in Europe).

They were not a polemic against Christianity........but against the impulse toward MANDATORY religious expression overseen by the STATE.

The problem you exhibit here permeates all your posts........your knowledge is a mile wide, but only an inch deep.

I know, I know.........you love America :roll:

If you loved Osama Bin Laden the way you "love" America, we would win the war tomorrow :lol:




Samuel Adams

"A general dissolution of Principles and Manners will more surely overthrow the Liberties of America than the whole Force of the common enemy. While the people are virtuous they cannot be subdued; but when once they lose their virtue they will be ready to surrender their liberties to the first external or internal invader . . . If virtue and knowledge are diffused among the people, they will never be enslaved. This will be their great security." Samuel Adams, The Writings of Samuel Adams, ed., Harry Alonzo Cushing (G. P. Putman's Sons, 1908), Vol. 4, p. 124.

Fisher Ames

“Should not the Bible regain the place it once held as a school book? Its morals are pure, its examples, captivating and noble. In no book is there so good English, so pure and so elegant; and by teaching all the same book, they will speak alike, and the Bible will justly remain the standard of language as well
as of faith.” Fisher Ames: Author of the First Amendment

Patrick Henry

"We shall not fight alone. God presides over the destinies of nations, and will raise up friends for us. The battle is not to the strong alone; it is to the vigilant, the active, the brave . . . Is life so dear, or peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it Almighty God! I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!" Patrick Henry, in a speech March 23, 1775.

"Whether this [new government] will prove a blessing or a curse will depend upon the use our people make of the blessings which a gracious God hath bestowed on us. If they are wise, they will be great and happy. If they are of a contrary character, they will be miserable. Righteousness alone can exalt them as a nation [Proverbs 14:34]. Reader! Whoever thou art, remember this, and in thy sphere practice virtue thyself and encourage it in others." Patrick Henry, Written on the back of Henry's Stamp Act

"Amongst other strange things said of me, I hear it is said by the deists that I am one of the number; and, indeed, that some good people think I am no Christian. This thought gives me much more pain than the appellation of Tory; because I think religion of infinitely higher importance than politics; and I find much cause to reproach myself that I have lived so long, and have given no decided and public proofs of my being a Christian. But, indeed, my dear child, this is a character which I prize far above all this world has, or can boast." Patrick Henry, from a letter to his daughter in 1796

"The Bible is worth all other books which have ever been printed." Patrick Henry, Wirt Henry's, Life, vol. II, p. 621



John Jay

"Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers. And it is the duty as well as the privilege and interest, of a Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers." First Chief Justice of Supreme Court John Jay to Jedidiah Morse February 28, 1797

"God's will be done; to him I resign--in him I confide. Do the like. Any other philosophy applicable to this occasion is delusive. Away with it." John Jay, first Chief Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court, in a letter to his wife, Sally Jay, April 20, 1794, reprinted in The Correspondence and Public Papers of John Jay, ed. Henry P. Johnston (New York, NY: Burt Franklin, 1970), vol. 4, p. 7.

"I have long been of opinion that the evidence of the truth of Christianity requires only to be carefully examined to produce conviction in candid minds . . ." John Jay, in a letter to Rev. Uzal Ogden, Feb. 14, 1796, in CPPJJ, vol. 4, p. 203.

"While in France . . . I do not recollect to have had more than two conversations with atheists about their tenants. The first was this: I was at a large party, of which were several of that description. They spoke freely and contemptuously of religion. I took no part in the conversation. In the course of it, one of them asked me if I believed in Christ? I answered that I did, and that I thanked God that I did." John Jay, in a letter to John Bristed, April 23, 1811, in CPPJJ, vol. 4, p. 359.

"The same merciful Providence has also been pleased to cause every material event and occurrence respecting our Redeemer, together with the gospel he proclaimed, and the miracles and predictions to which it gave occasion, to be faithfully recorded and preserved for the information and benefit of all mankind." John Jay, in an address to the American Bible Society, May 9, 1822, in CPPJJ, vol. 4, p. 480.



John Marshall

"The American population is entirely Christian, and with us Christianity and Religion are identified. It would be strange indeed, if with such a people, our institutions did not presuppose Christianity, and did not often refer to it, and exhibit relations with it." John Marshall, in a letter to Jasper Adams, May 9, 1833, JSAC, p. 139. Marshall was Chief Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court from 1801-1835.



Benjamin Rush

"Let the children...be carefully instructed in the principles and obligations of the Christian religion. This is the most essential part of education. The great enemy of the salvation of man, in my opinion, never invented a more effectual means of extirpating [removing] Christianity from the world than by persuading mankind that it was improper to read the Bible at schools." Benjamin Rush, The Father of American Medicine, and the Father of American Psychiatry

"The only foundation for a useful education in a republic is to be laid in religion. Without this there can be no virtue, and without virtue there can be no liberty- - -" Benjamin Rush, Letters of Benjamin Rush, L.H. Butterfield, editor, Princeton: The American Philosophical Society, 1951, Vol. I p. 414, "To the citizens of Philadelphia: A Plan for Free Schools", March 28, 1787


"It will be necessary to connect all these (academic) branches of education with regular instruction in the Christian religion." Benjamin Rush, Essays, Literary, Moral, and Philosophical, Philadelphia: Thomas & William Bradford, 1806, Ch. 'Thoughts upon Female Education' p. 82



Roger Sherman

"I believe that there is only one living and true God - - - That the scriptures of the old and new testaments are a revelation from God and a complete rule to direct us how we may glorify and enjoy Him." Lewis Henry Boutell, The Life of Roger Sherman (Chicago: A.C. McClurg and Co., 1896), pp. 272-273 David Barton, Original Intent (Aledo, TX: Wallbuilders, 2000) Ch. 6 p. 138

"Let us live no more to ourselves, but to Him who loved us, and gave Himself to die for us". M.E. Bradford, A Worthy Company (Marlborough, NH, Plymouth Rock Foundation, 1982) p. 29



Joseph Storey

"Christianity becomes not merely an auxiliary, but a guide, to the law of nature; establishing its conclusions, removing its doubts, and evaluating its precepts." Joseph Story, "The Value and Importance of Legal Studies," a lecture delivered August 25, 1829 at his inauguration as Dane Professor of Law in Harvard University, cited in James McClellan, Joseph Story and the American Constitution (Norman, OK: University of Oklahoma, 1971), p. 66. Story served as Associate Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court from 1811-1845, and founded the Harvard Law School.

"My own private judgment has long been (and every day's experience more and more confirms me in it) that government cannot long exist without an alliance with Religion to some extent, and that Christianity is indispensable to the true interests and solid foundation of all governments. . . . I know not, indeed, how any deep sense of moral obligation or accountableness can be expected to prevail in the community without a firm foundation of the great Christian truths." Joseph Story, in a letter to Jasper Adams, May 14, 1833, in JSAC, p. 139.

“The real object of the (First) Amendment was not to countenance, much less advance, Mahometanism, or Judaism, or infidelity, by prostrating Chrisianity; but to exclude all rivalry among Christian sects (denominations).” Original Intent, by David Barton, ch. 2, p. 31, Wallbuilder Press, Aledo, TX,
1996; Commentaries, Story, Vol. III, p. 728, 1871




Noah Webster

"The religion which has introduced civil liberty is the religion of Christ and His Apostles.... This is genuine Christianity and to this we owe our free constitutions of government." Noah Webster

The Fifty Five Delegates to the Constitutional Convention.

New Hampshire
John Langdon, Congregationalist
Nicholas Gilman, Congregationalist

Massachusetts
Elbridge Gerry, Episcopalian
Rufus King, Episcopalian
Caleb Strong, Congregationalist
Nathaniel Gorham, Congregationalist

Connecticut
Roger Sherman, Congregationalist
William Samuel Johnson, Episcopalian
Oliver Ellsworth, Congregationalist

New York
Alexander Hamilton, Episcopalian
John Lansing, Dutch Reformed
Robert Yates, Dutch Reformed

New Jersey
William Paterson, Presbyterian
William Livingston, Presbyterian
Jonathan Dayton, Episcopalian
David Brearly, Episcopalian
William Churchill Houston, Presbyterian

Pennsylvania
Benjamin Franklin, Deist
Robert Morris, Episcopalian
James Wilson, Episcopalian/Deist
Gouverneur Morris, Episcopalian
Thomas Mifflin, Quaker/Lutheran
George Clymer, Quaker/Episcopalian
Thomas FitzSimmons, Roman Catholic
Jared Ingersoll, Presbyterian

Delaware
John Dickinson, Quaker/Episcopalian
George Read, Episcopalian
Richard Bassett, Methodist
Gunning Bedford, Presbyterian
Jacob Broom, Lutheran

Maryland
Luther Martin, Episcopalian
Daniel Carroll, Roman Catholic
John Francis Mercer, Episcopalian
James McHenry, Presbyterian
Daniel of St Thomas Jennifer, Episcopalian

Virginia
George Washington, Episcopalian
James Madison, Episcopalian
George Mason, Episcopalian
Edmund Jennings Randolph, Episcopalian
James Blair, Jr., Episcopalian
James McClung
George Wythe, Episcopalian

North Carolina
William Richardson Davie, Presbyterian
Hugh Williamson, Presbyterian/Deist (?)
William Blount, Presbyterian
Alexander Martin, Presbyterian/Episcopalian
Richard Dobbs Spaight, Jr., Episcopalian

South Carolina
John Rutledge, Episcopalian
Charles Cotesworth Pinckney, Episcopalian
Pierce Butler, Episcopalian
Charles Pinckney, III, Episcopalian

Georgia
Abraham Baldwin, Congregationalist
William Leigh Pierce, Episcopalian
William Houstoun, Episcopalian
William Few, Methodist





John Langdon, a Congregationalist, was a founder and the first president of the New Hampshire Bible Society. While Governor of New Hampshire he issued an official Procalamation for a General Thanksgiving in which he said:
"The munificent Father of Mercies, and Sovereign Disposer of Events, having been graciously pleased to relieve the United States of America from the Calamities of a long and dangerous war: through the whole course of which, he continued to smile on the Labours of our Husbandmen, thereby preventing Famine (the most inseparable Companion of War) from entering our Borders; - eventually restored to us the blessings of Peace, on Terms advantageous and honourable...."

Rufus King, an Episcopalian, was a member of the Continental Congress, aide to General Sullivan in the War for Independence, minister to England, and a U.S. Senator. At a convention considering amendments to the New York Constitution in 1821 he said:
"[In o]ur laws...by the oath which they prescribe, we appeal to the Supreme Being to deal with us hereafter as we observe the obligation of our oaths. The Pagan world were and are without the mighty influence of this principle which is proclaimed in the Christian system - their morals were destitute of its powerful sanction while their oaths neither awakened the hopes nor fears which a belief in Christianity inspires."

Nathaniel Gorham, a Congregationalist, helped write the Massachusett's Constitution, which required:
"Any person chosen governor, or lieutenant-governor, cousellor, senator, or representative, and accepting the trust, shall before he proceed to execute the duties of his place or office, take, make, and subscribe the following declaration, viz. 'I, ____, do declare, that I believe the Christian religion, and have a firm persuasion of its truth.'"
Such a religious test was Constitutional until 1947 when the Supreme Court rewrote the Constitution by making the First Amendment apply to the states, not just the federal government.

Roger Sherman, a Congregationalist, was the only Founder to sign the Articles of Association, the Declaration, the Articles of Confederation and the Constitution. He was a member of the committee that drafted the Declaration and the First Amendment. He also drafted the creed of the White Haven Congregationalist church, which he attended. Sherman, John Adams, and George Wythe drafted the instructions to American embassy to Roman Catholic Canada in 1776, which said:
"You are further to declare that we hold sacred the rights of conscience, and may promise to the whole people, solemnly in our name, the free and undisturbed exercise of their religion. And...that all civil rights and the right to hold office were to be extended to persons of any Christian denomination."

William Samuel Johnson, Episcopalian, son of Anglican (Episcopalian) minister Samuel Johnson and president of Columbia University from 1787-1800. In his remarks to the first graduating class at Columbia after the War for Independence he said:
"You this day, gentlemen, assume new characters, enter into new relations, and consequently incur new duties. You have, by the favor of Providence and the attention of your friends, received a public education, the purpose whereof hath been to qualify you the better to serve your Creator and your country...."
"Your first great duties, you are sensible, are those you owe to Heaven, to your Creator and Redeemer. Let these be ever present to your minds, and exemplified in your lives and conduct."
"Imprint deep upon your minds the principles of piety towards God, and a reverence and fear of His holy name. The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom and its consummation is everlasting felicity. Possess yourselves of just and elevated notions of the Divine character, attributes, and administration, and of the end and dignity of your own immortal nature as it stands related to Him."
"Reflect deeply and often upon those relations. Remember that it is in God you live and move and have your being, - that in the language of David He is about your bed and about your path and spieth out all your ways, - that there is not a thought in your hearts, nor a word upon your tongues, but lo! He knoweth them altogether, and that he will one day call you to a strict account for all your conduct in this mortal life."
"Remember, too, that you are the redeemed of the Lord, that you are bought with a price, even the inestimable price of the precious blood of the Son of God. Adore Jehovah, therefore, as your God and your Judge. Love, fear, and serve Him as your Creator, Redeemer, and Sanctifier. Acquaint yourselves with Him in His word and holy ordinances."
"Make Him your friend and protector and your felicity is secured both here and hereafter. And with respect to particular duties to Him, it is your happiness that you are well assured that he best serves his Maker, who does most good to his country and to mankind."

Alexander Hamilton, an Episcopalian, not only signed the Constitution but wrote 51 of the 85 Federalist Papers with Madison and Jay. He believed agreement on the Constitution could not have been obtained "without the finger of God." Although he agreed to duel with Burr, he told others that his duty as a Christian would prevent him from shooting and in his dying words claimed "a tender reliance on the mercy of the Almighty, through the merits of the Lord Jesus Christ." When he was killed he was planning the creation of "The Christian Constituional Society," as he explained in an 1802 letter to James Bayard:
"I now offer you the outline of the plan they have suggested. Let an association be formed to be denominated 'The Christian Constitutional Society,' its object to be first: The support of the Christian religion. Second: The support of the United States."

William Paterson, a Presbyterian, was a state attorney general, Governor of New Jersey, and a Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court. The town of Paterson, New Jersey was named in his honor. As a Supreme Court Justice, a newspaper account of his visit to the federal court in Portsmouth, New Hampshire shows he opened court in this fashion:
"On Monday last the Circuit Court of the United States was opened in this town. The Hon. Judge Paterson presided. After the Jury were impaneled, the Judge delivered a most eloquent and appropriate charge....Religion and morality were pleasingly inculcated and enforced as being necessary to good government, good order, and good laws, for 'when the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice [Proberbs 29:2].'... After the [jury] charge was delivered, the Rev. Mr. Alden addressed the Throne of Grace in an excellent and well adapted prayer."

William Livingston, a Presbyterian, was a delegate to both Continental Congresses, the first Governor of New Jersey, and a Brigadier General in the militia. He published articles defending Christianity in The Independent Reflector and offered this resolution in Congress on March 16, 1776, passed without objection:
"We earnestly recommend that Friday, the 17th day of May next, be observed by the colonies as a day of humiliation, fasting, and prayer, that we may with united hearts confess and bewail our manifold sins and transgressions, and by a sincere repentance and amendment of life appease God's righteous displeasure, and through the merits and mediation of Jesus Christ obtain His pardon and forgiveness."

David Brearly, an Episcopalian, served as a colonel in the War for Independence, Chief Justice of the Supreme Court of New Jersey, and was appointed to the federal bench by George Washington.
He was a warden of St. Michael's Church, a delegate to the Episcopal General Convention in 1786, and helped compile the Protestant Episcopal Prayer Book.

Benjamin Franklin, "I have lived, sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth -- God Governs in the Affairs of Men, And if a Sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, Is it possible that an empire can rise without His aid?
"Except the Lord build the house, They labor in vain who build it." "I firmly believe this." Benjamin Franklin, June 28, 1787 Constitutional Convention
James Wilson, "Human law must rest its authority ultimately upon the authority of that law which is divine....Far from being rivals or enemies, religion and law are twin sisters, friends, and mutual assistants. Indeed, these two sciences run into each other."James Wilson, a signer of the Constitution and an original Justice on the U.S. Supreme Court

In 1776 William Blount, a Presbyterian, helped draft the Tennessee Constitution which said:
Article VIII, Section II: No person who denies the being of God, or a future state of rewards and punishments, shall hold any office in the civil department of this State.
Article XI, Section IV: That no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under this State.
The quotation shows the Founders did not consider a belief in God to be a "religious test," which in the history of England in the century before our Constitution meant allegiance to a particular denomination.

Now, I concede that there was no desire to create a theocracy..........and I personally would abhor that prospect as well. We left that lunacy in Europe......But the Founders were overwhelmingly Christian, and set up this Government on those principles.

Ignorance.........Spain's #1 export :lol:
Last edited by Scatter on Wed Mar 15, 2006 1:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Wed Mar 15, 2006 12:59 pm

All insane animals on this unfinished planet.

Happy St Patrick's Day :oops:

http://elvisbyterrywood.com/

Wed Mar 15, 2006 1:07 pm

MauriceinIreland wrote:All insane animals .......
http://elvisbyterrywood.com/


Well.......one at least :wink:

Wed Mar 15, 2006 1:15 pm

Image Kate Bush in the Green. Her mother was Irish.

Scatter, stick around kid. In time the little niggling doubts in your brain will grow, as it takes in the relentless logic of the crazy Irishman.

There's a method in my madness :wink:

http://elvisbyterrywood.com/

Wed Mar 15, 2006 1:59 pm

I already know far more on this subject than you ever can.........so the niggling doubts should be wearing Irish Green. :wink:

Wed Mar 15, 2006 2:41 pm

Image

Scatter wrote:I already know far more on this subject than you ever can.........so the niggling doubts should be wearing Irish Green. :wink:


Dream on young man. Waking up is not as difficult as you may imagine.

Just repeat after me, I will think this out, BEFORE the WWW solves it all, as it will surely do.

Meanwhile I have a fresh idea to explore concerning the Creationists viewpoint. A little creativity may materialise :wink:

Wed Mar 15, 2006 2:57 pm

MauriceinIreland wrote:Image

Scatter wrote:I already know far more on this subject than you ever can.........so the niggling doubts should be wearing Irish Green. :wink:


Dream on young man. Waking up is not as difficult as you may imagine.

Just repeat after me, I will think this out, BEFORE the WWW solves it all, as it will surely do.

Meanwhile I have a fresh idea to explore concerning the Creationists viewpoint. A little creativity may materialise :wink:


Maurice, you make the same error that SpanishLies does. The WWW is full of sites that give quotes from the Founding Fathers that reflect their feelings on religion............some of it negative.

See........I know that too.

What I know that apparently you don't, is that these comments must be put in their perspective to be valid.

If you take these "soundbites"........all looks negative.

If you actually RESEARCH them, it is not as it appears. They remonstrated against FORMAL DENOMINATIONAL religion having a formalized union with the State governments. These quotes do NOT reflect their personal views on God, just their reluctance to see the Church and State wedded, and State sponsored religion becoming institutionalized.

Also, one must read the BODY of their writings over the course of their life (and fortunately, folks of that period were prodigious letter writers and there is a huge body of correspondence available).

I have read a great deal of what is out there. Not on the internet either........where as I stated before, the knowledge is a mile wide and an inch deep.

You see Maurice........you don't know everything about everything. And you're not going to get this education on Google. It will take some effort. :wink:

Wed Mar 15, 2006 3:09 pm

Let's take SpanishLies' famous 5 Founders one at a time,shall we??

At the Constitutional Convention of 1787, James Madison proposed the plan to divide the central government into three branches. He discovered this model of government from the Perfect Governor, as he read
Isaiah 33:22;
“For the LORD is our judge, [judicial]
the LORD is our lawgiver, [legislative]
the LORD is our king; [executive]
He will save us.”
Baron Charles Montesquieu wrote "The Spirit of the Laws", a book that was read and studied intently by our Founders. Montesquieu wrote in 1748; “Nor is there liberty if the power of judging is not separated from legislative power and from executive power. If it [the power of judging] were joined to legislative power, the power over life and liberty of the citizens would be arbitrary, for the judge would be the legislature if it were joined to the executive power, the judge could have the force of an oppressor. All would be lost if the same … body of principal men … exercised these three powers." Madison claimed Isaiah 33:22 as the source of division of power in government.
____________________________________

• In 1812, President Madison signed a federal bill which economically aided the Bible Society of Philadelphia in its goal of the mass distribution of
the Bible.
“ An Act for the relief of the Bible Society of Philadelphia” Approved February 2, 1813 by Congress


On April 20, 1816, Congress also approved relief for the Baltimore and Massachusetts Bible Societies!

_____________________________________

Who did President Madison thank and trust during his First Inaugural Address?
"...we have all been encouraged to feel in the guardianship and guidance of that Almighty Being whose power regulates the destiny of nations, whose blessings have been so conspicuously dispensed to this rising Republic, and to whom we are bound to address our devout gratitude for the past, as well as our fervent supplications and best hopes for the future."

You see, Madison was a Christian who simply wanted the State to remain independent of the Church, and vice versa.
Last edited by Scatter on Wed Mar 15, 2006 3:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Wed Mar 15, 2006 3:09 pm

Image Happy St Patrick's Day from Kate too!

Scatter, :lol: You don't really think I'm taking any notice of this thread's subject matter.

We are a little past all that. Well some of us are.

Wed Mar 15, 2006 3:23 pm

MauriceinIreland wrote:Image Happy St Patrick's Day from Kate too!

Scatter, :lol: You don't really think I'm taking any notice of this thread's subject matter.

We are a little past all that. Well some of us are.


Now Maurice, you are not the originator of this spurious notion in this thread.......therefore my challenge is not directed toward you at all. If you wanted into the fray........well, who was I to forbid you??

Do all Irishmen think that everything revolves about them??

Don't answer that......we already know. :lol:
(JUst Kidding :wink: ........I'll be joining you on the creationist thread soon. Quick......look up the mechanism for the integration of information systems within the DNA molecule. You'll need to know that to keep up with me :D )

Wed Mar 15, 2006 3:26 pm

John Adams

>"God has infinite wisdom, goodness and power; he created the universe; his
> duration is eternal, a parte ante and a parte post. His presence is as
> extensive as space. What is space? An infinite spherical vacuum. He created
> this speck of dirt and the human species for his glory; and with deliberate
> design of making nine-tenths of our species miserable for ever for his glory.
> This is the doctrine of Christian theologians, in general, ten to one. Now, my
> friend, can prophecies or miracles convince you or me that infinite
> benevolence, wisdom, and power, created, and preserves for a time innumerable
> millions, to make them miserable forever, for his own glory? Wretch! What is
> his glory? Is he ambitious? Does he want promotion? Is he vain, tickled with
> adulation, exulting and triumphing in his power and the sweetness of his
> vengeance? Pardon me, my Maker, for these awful questions. My answer to them
> is always ready. _I believe no such things_. My adoration of the author of the
> universe is too profound and too sincere. The love of God and his
> creation-delight, joy, triumph, exultation in my own existance- though but an
> atom, a molecule organique in the universe- are my religion".
>
> [John Adams, in a latter to Jefferson, Sept. 14, 1813, from
> "Christianity and the Constitution: The Founding faith of our Fathers"
> John Eidsmoe ISBN: 0-8010-3444-2]

Adams was not a Trinitarian, therefore his rants must be put into that context to be understood. Anyone interested in his personal views should read his private correspondences (such as above) and his lovely and touching letters to his wife Abigail.

Theirs was a true love story.

Wed Mar 15, 2006 3:54 pm

Mischievious Spanish_Eyes says he likes America, so do I. But if we criticise the country we are pounced on.

Are Americans really so insecure?

Well not the vast majority I have spoken to. Many thousands.

It's only on message boards we meet the extremists. On Irish message boards it's open war on some subjects, including religion. We have our share of religious and political fanatics of all shades too :lol:

It's jungle out there.

Nope I'll not engage in the Creationst war. A decisive victory occured just weeks ago on TV. American scientists won a major victory.........I'm sure you will have seen the TV Programme? It was shown on our screens too.

My niggling doubts began when I was about eleven.........can I help it if you are a little slow :lol:

Wed Mar 15, 2006 5:02 pm

Maurice -
If you truly want to make a worthwhile contribution to this thread then please enlarge that Kate Bush photo.

Wed Mar 15, 2006 6:04 pm

Pete Dube wrote:Maurice -
If you truly want to make a worthwhile contribution to this thread then please enlarge that Kate Bush photo.

Image Kate's mother was Irish.

An early Happy St Patrick's Day, Pete.

I kissed her, remember? Eat your heart out son :lol:

Wed Mar 15, 2006 7:11 pm

Thanks Maurice! I'll have to celebrate my St. Patty's today, as I'll be spending Friday having a medical procedure.

Wed Mar 15, 2006 7:24 pm

Pete Dube wrote:Thanks Maurice! I'll have to celebrate my St. Patty's today, as I'll be spending Friday having a medical procedure.


Pete, Nothing serious I hope?