Off Topic Messages

Religious Expression Beats Common Sense

Fri Mar 03, 2006 2:55 am

Doesn't one child's right to be educated in a non-threatening environment outweigh another child's "right" to carry around an 8 inch dagger???

Just more PC BS.

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OTTAWA (Reuters) - Multiculturalism and religious freedom trumped safety concerns in a Canadian Supreme Court decision on Thursday that will allow orthodox Sikh students to carry traditional daggers to school.


In its decision, the court noted that Sikh orthodoxy requires the wearing of the daggers, known as kirpans, even though they are banned from airplanes and some courtrooms.

"Religious tolerance is a very important value of Canadian society," Justice Louise Charron wrote in reasons for the decision after a court case that involved 12-year-old Gurbaj Singh Multani, who was prevented from carrying his kirpan at a Montreal school.

"If some students consider it unfair that Gurbaj Singh may wear his kirpan to school while they are not allowed to have knives in their possession, it is incumbent on the schools to discharge their obligation to instill in their students this value that is ... at the very foundation of our democracy."

Kirpans are already allowed in Ontario after a lower court order, as is the case in some other parts of Canada. Thursday's ruling now opens the door to the practice, with possible restrictions, across the country.

Canada banned kirpans on airplanes after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks in the United States. Some courts ban them as well, although Sikhs attending the Supreme Court hearing were allowed to wear them.

Charron said aircraft were unique environments, but schools had the ability to better control different situations.

Multani's school had originally allowed him to carry his kirpan in a wooden sheath sewn inside a cloth envelope inside his clothing. But the school board overturned this, and the boy's father turned to the courts.

His kirpan is about 20 cm (8 inches) long, with the blade roughly half that length, but kirpans can be longer.

The Quebec government argued unsuccessfully for zero tolerance for weapons in school, and some parents also opposed the idea.

"My first reaction as a parent is a feeling of insecurity," Claude Bouchard, a board member of the Quebec Federation of Parents' Committees, told Reuters after the decision.

"As a parent, is the life and safety of a child more important than religious freedom? I think so."

Charron said the boy had no history of violence, and rejected the idea that kirpans are inherently dangerous. She also noted that schools contained other objects that could be used as weapons, such as scissors or baseball bats.

Orthodox Sikhs have been been required to carry kirpans since the 1600s. Some say the original purpose was for defense but many insist it is not a weapon.

Multani is now 16 and about to graduate from school, but he told reporters in the foyer of the Supreme Court the battle was worth it.

"Everybody should stand for their rights. I got it. I'm happy," he said, wearing a black turban and surrounded by numerous Sikh supporters.

Sikhs struggled for the right to wear turbans while in uniform with the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. That episode was decided by the federal government in 1990.

Around 250,000 Sikhs live in Canada, and about 10 percent of them are considered orthodox.

In the United States, a federal appeals court allowed kirpans in California, but the U.S. Supreme Court has not decreed a national policy.

Fri Mar 03, 2006 3:06 am

I'm actually with you here Eagle. Common good law should trump religion when it's taken this far. Common good law in this case is that you can't let kid walk into school with a knife. It's too dangerous. Just like the case of the women in Florida I think who didn't want to show her face on a driver's license completely defeating the purpose of the license. At the same time if the parents are comfortable with the kid, under their supervision, having knife at home or when they go out that's perfectly fine.

Fri Mar 03, 2006 9:50 pm

Interesting post, Eagle.

Not to make this too inflamatory but LTB's old fave O'Reilly had a story last night about a teacher who had a he-to-she sex change which apparently was quite traumatic for some (all?) of these young students.
Transgendered teacher causing uproar

In New Jersey, substitute teacher William McBeth underwent a sex change operation and is now Lili McBeth. Parent Mark Schnepp, unhappy that the new lady McBeth is still teaching, removed his 2nd and 5th graders from the school. "It's way too much for these kids to handle. My 8-year old is just totally blown away and told me he was frightened by this person. When you overload a brain with too much information, there's potential for harm." The Factor sympathized with Schnepp's decision. "I agree with you - an 8-year old can't digest this kind of situation. When you're in second grade you shouldn't have to worry about transgender."


The parent (Schnepp) asked the school board to at least transfer the teacher to another school so a fresh start could be had.

Alas, he was told (after closed meetings) that the teacher's rights trumped those of the children. He ultimately moved his kid to another school because his child (and it was a child) was quite frightened by this transformation.

Again, the minority so often is dictating to the majority. I know we have to balance these things but it seems we have diversity above all other considerations.

A similar story to the Sikhs in Canada are transit motormen on the New York subway (one Irish-looking guy who converted in particular) who sued the City of NY for making him wear his official motorman cap and not his sikh regalia.

What's next? Sikhs suing to not wear police uniforms?

Might be we be over-concerned about protecting "the individual" in society today?

Sat Mar 04, 2006 1:37 am

Gregory Nolan Jr. wrote:Not to make this too inflamatory but LTB's old fave O'Reilly had a story last night about a teacher who had a he-to-she sex change which apparently was quite traumatic for some (all?) of these young students.
Transgendered teacher causing uproar



I saw that report.

That sick twisted "thing" should not be allowed around children.
No access to kids at all. Kids should not be exposed to such disgusting vile persons.

A deliberate willful act to change gender and become a "freak" should be against the law.
Last edited by Graceland Gardener on Sat Mar 04, 2006 1:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

Sat Mar 04, 2006 1:39 am

I don't think the teacher story is necessarily equivalent. I don't know how many children are traumatized or distracted as it very unusual for a child at this age to have the same teacher from one year to the next. So unless the teacher came back in the middle of the year there shouldn't be a problem. I suspect the parent has the bigger problem with it.

Sat Mar 04, 2006 1:42 am

So what if a parent had a problem with?
A parent has a right to have a problem with it!

As reported, a CHILD there did have a serious problem with the "he" teacher coming back as now a "she" !
and the kid was confused and traumatized by it and the playground discussion among many students there was dominated by topics on cutting off a penis, how painful it is to cut off one's penis, "why" cut off penis.


That teacher should not have been allowed to come back to the school.


Children should stay as innocent as possible and not be exposed to such weirdness that occurs in the adult world.
Elementary School is no place for that "education"

Who can possibly disagree with that?

Sat Mar 04, 2006 2:31 am

How would the kids even know?

Sat Mar 04, 2006 2:35 am

I agree with GG, even if I perhaps write more diplomatically.

The word spreads fast when Mr. Smith is suddenly dolled up as "Mrs. Smith." That's gossip and that's human behavior. Also, as a kid, I knew from my brothers and sisters all of the teachers in school that I was going to get to know.

And I think it all occurred during the school year.

Folks willing to make such a radical decision might at least consider the effects of their decisions on those around them - especially children. There are other schools - and other lines of work, too.

This kind of re-ordering of society may never feel "right" to people, try as some to make it a casual thing, like picking out a new hair color.

The reason I brought it up was the link to making minorities (sikh adherents, "women" who claim they are "trapped in a man's body") feel entitled to have everyone adapt to them and not the other way around.

Multiple examples abound on this troubling trend.

Just recently, a firefighter sued a town or city in the US after "he" became a "she" and apparently experienced a supervisor who still call the guy by his old name and other such harrassment.

Such extreme social experimentation should not go on in our civil institutions -and definitely not firehouses, where public safety should be job #1.

Sat Mar 04, 2006 3:38 am

likethebike wrote:How would the kids even know?


what an audacious damn question, LTB.

The utter casualness and indifference and subtle sarcasm in that question is staggering - and scary.

Kids should NOT be exposed to transgender anythings!
Or overhear conversations (or engage in conversations) about surgeons cutting dicks off to convert into vaginas.

Jesus wake up dude. Just how "tolerant" and liberal are you?

Sat Mar 04, 2006 3:52 am

Chicks with dicks? This is what this board has come to?

I'm supposed to care whether someone has a pecker or a pussy? Yeah, I come here to waste time, but come on ...

This is a bigger yawner than the debate over whether Elvis pronounced "hermanos" precisely.

Move along, folks, nothing to see here.

Sat Mar 04, 2006 11:46 pm

I don't like to see such words on an mb, Elvissessions, but just because you don't think there's any controversy to be had about such excesses in the US doesn't mean it's not a problem to many people. The "culture wars" are alive and well in the USA.

The larger question of how we reconcile differences of a minority (say, Sikhs who want the right for their kids to go to school with a sword) with the majority of the population is a an on-going saga, whether you like it or not.

What's been going on in Europe (see multiculturalism and cartoon threads) is exact proof that the stakes are high - and at least interesting.

Sun Mar 05, 2006 2:44 am

While all homsoexuals are not women in trapped in men's body and vice versa, they really can't win. They take the ultimate step in conformity and they are still condemned as freaks although if they crossed dressed and pursued a homosexual lifestyle they would still be subject to your ridicule. There's no winning with you people. Perhaps they should all just die.

These kids are six and seven years old. If they put the pieces together God love them they should be five grades ahead. They put the pieces together because adults do it for them. Most of the time when you are in first grade you have a different teacher in second grade. There is no trauma. And if parents would explain the issue rationally as opposed to hysterically there would be no issue. How many times have you seen a child scrape his knee or get hurt in some way and no tears come but as soon as the parent starts going crazy the child breaks into tears? The children take their cues from their parents not the other way around. And it is very disturbing that so often people use their children to justify their own fear and bigotry.

There is a culture war and a big part of that war is that we have to mature as a culture and stop greeting everything with hysteria and panic.
Last edited by likethebike on Sun Mar 05, 2006 11:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

Sun Mar 05, 2006 2:54 am

likethebike wrote:While all homsoexuals are women in trapped in men's body and vice versa they really can't win.


:lol: whatta crock of bunk.

So does the gay person's inner woman have special civil rights added to the outer man civil rights? Wow, what if he had a black inner woman; how that would complicate the matter!

The impression I get is your Liberalism has no bounds of Reason and no restrictions dicated by Common Sense.
You should be a Defense Attorney.
Alot of perverts and criminals surely could use you on their side.
You seem to be on their side already - so get paid for it!

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likethebike wrote: And it is very disturbing that so often people use their children to justify their own fear and bigotry.


! A perfect assessment of that idiot parent Michael Newdow and his bigotry against Christianity and his fear of Nativity Scenes, Ten Commandments displays, and Christmas songs.

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There are no Transgender Rights - and probably never will be.
That "he-she thing" teacher has no right to return to teaching children.
In fact, what he has done to himself, and the surgeon who performed it,
should be outlawed and criminal....in the USA at least.

The Cultural War will hopefully be won by the Conservatives.

The Liberal Side is too creepy and freaky and perverted and doped
and far more prone to disease (remember AIDS?) and they promote moral decay (younger and younger) and yuk, they even celebrate deliberate deformity.

strange.

Sun Mar 05, 2006 11:42 am

Basically you're just saying they should just die. As a homosexuals to you they're freaks already and you can't stand what they're doing now. I left a word out of my original post it was supposed to say while NOT all "homosexuals" are women trapped in a men's body and vice versa" (I write very fast and those things happen from time to time.) For the ones who believe that they are why do you object to them moving towards the conformity you so crave?

Why doesn't a transgender person have rights? It's downright un-American to say that. Again I also ask what cartoon do you get your picture of liberalism from. To say that everyone deserves the same rights and the same chance at happiness is not a degenerate idea. Live and let live.

The thing is when people are b*tching about those would uphold the rights of others they get all righteous and indignant until it is their rights and opinions that are questioned.

Sun Mar 05, 2006 1:23 pm

GG, Take a listen to Tchaikovsky's "Pathetique" Symphony.

Then when you have stopped crying think of the tormented mind where that excruciatingly beautiful music came from.

Then play it again and again and again, till you are made better.

Sun Mar 05, 2006 8:25 pm

Maurice,
thanks for music recommendation.
In return, check out Rossini's Barber of Seville Overture - it rocks.

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LTB, They don't have to be killed.
They could be put in traveling freak shows.
A perfect Col. Parker type of pay-to-see He/She exhibit.
:wink:
Hell, think about how John Merrick (an accidental oddity) had more dignity,
self-assurance and retainment of a soul.....
more so than the willful transgender teacher has.

I empathise/feel sorry for Merrick.

I don't feel sorry for the teacher who changed genders.

He sounds like that twisted Silence of the Lambs character....

You really support those transgender folks?

likethebike wrote:Why doesn't a transgender person have rights? It's downright un-American to say that.


If a transgender is already an American citizen, then he/she obviously has the Basic Constitutional Rights of an average citizen.
But to concoct "special" rights based on trangendering, or homosexuality, is ridiculous.

Gee.....
in addition to my Basic Constituitional Rights,
I want Hetero Rights, Brunette Rights, Southpaw Rights, and Acne Rights (since I had some disenfranchising zits as a teenager) plus I want 6'3'' Height Rights, and 2nd Toe-longer-than-Big Toe Rights, and however many more rights based on my individual profile .....so on and so on.

That's the absurdity of the Leftwing agenda.
To create special rights for all the "types" who feel different and oppressed and outcast.

Mon Mar 06, 2006 1:52 am

I'm from Canada and this law frickin stinks. My son cannot wear his baseball cap in class but these people can carry daggers, nice. It's so bad over here that immigrants have more rights then people who have lived in Canada all of their life. I've actually been turned down for jobs because I'm a white male, that's how sickening it has become. It isn't who's the best person for a particular job anymore.

Mon Mar 06, 2006 2:47 am

I'm with GG on this one.

It seems anyone and anything, from he/she freaks to gays to muslims etc have more rights than we do.

As far as im aware, in a democratic society- the majority rules??

So how about us white, straight, law abiding citizens having some rights for a change??

Mon Mar 06, 2006 7:45 am

If a person chose to have their entire face TATTOOED,
and then were shunned by many people, and lost a job,
or didn't get a new job because of their tattoo face.....
and if they experienced discrimination and lack of understanding
due to their choice for a tattoo-face.....

would you support their need for special tattoo-face Rights?

Hmm? Should they get "protection and special civil rights" ?

Should the ACLU champion them and lobby Congress for Tattoo-Face Rights and make it a hate crime if someone is not nice to the tattoo-face person? Hate speech to insult a tattoo-face person?

:lol:

Such scenarios are ridiculous and absurd.
But to actually happen in real life......
I wouldn't be the least bit surprised in this idiotic liberalized day and age.
:shock:


People who do freaky sh*t like that for "individuality" and then expect tolerance and acceptance really need the Patron Saint of LOST CAUSES.

Mon Mar 06, 2006 10:13 am

there are people who tattoo every inch of their bodies leopard print, or make themselves through plastic surgery and tattooing into the human reptile/cat...and these are all real people who show up on tv every once in awhile.

there's a guy who has a frickin' lizard split tongue! and another guy with whiskers!

i think i'd hire the bearded lady before i'd hire those guys!

Mon Mar 06, 2006 11:15 am

[quote="Graceland Gardener"]Maurice,
thanks for music recommendation.
In return, check out Rossini's Barber of Seville Overture - it rocks.=quote]

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Methinks you missed something GG. Never mind. I feel better anyway.

Mon Mar 06, 2006 3:09 pm

Eagle.

What i cannot for the life of me understand is why these judges are letting these money grabbing lawyers, who fight every inch of the way, finding every loophole they can, to get away with this sh*t to line their own pockets.......our civil rights (in our own respecive countries, mine being the UK) are being taken away for the sake of NOT offending muslims)

The population of Canada is almost 33,000,000.........with 250,000 sikhs so how come they are getting favouritism over you guys.

Where is YOUR right to be offended??

Do YOU actually have any??

It's damned scary when this kind of thing is happening everyday..........But dont think you guys are alone in this....it's happening here in the UK too.

Man.....the world is well and truly fu*ked up............this has got to be stopped.

Mon Mar 06, 2006 5:33 pm

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None of us have "walked in that man's shoes" (high heels?), and I'm as quick as anyone to stick up for the underdog and to preach tolerance and acceptance. I've done it many times, and for gays and Blacks in particular in hostile work climates.

Still, in trickier cases like this, it's the children who are the under-dogs. Talk about scary monsters in the dark...!

Besides, the guy's 71. Retire or see if Wal-Mart is hiring - and leave the kids out of it.

Part of the problem with the advocates for minorities in society (atheists like Michael Newdow's vendetta against mention of any religion in the public square, or sikhs wanting their kids to bring daggers to school for religious reasons) is the notion that there need not be any balance to such claims. It's tricky to find that spot, but there is something to be said for majoritarian rules.

It's so easy to say "live and let live" and it's not a bad starting point to much -but not all of life. I think a more mature approach is to actually have guidelines and standards. Not everything that goes on deserves endoresment and that's one of the problems with the credo of "live and let live" cultural liberalism.

Indeed, under U.S. labor law, there are severe limits to our rights to any job, rightly or wrongly. The exaggerated sense of obligation to this teacher's quest is baffling and surely wrong-headed.

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Here's the more on that teacher controversy:
http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=1682 ... 1&gma=true

Community Divided Over Transgender Teacher
William McBeth Became Lily McBeth Last Spring
March 3, 2006 — - A New Jersey town is divided after the school board voted to allow a teacher to return to school after undergoing a sex change.

For the last five years, William McBeth has been a substitute teacher at Eagleswood elementary school, but it will be Lily McBeth, 71, who will fill in for sick teachers. McBeth underwent a sex change last year.

During a heated school board meeting this week, the community stood divided on the 4-1 decision to allow McBeth to return to the classroom.

"I will not allow you to put my kids in a petri dish and hope it all comes out fine," said parent Mark Schneep, who had taken out an ad in a local newspaper urging parents to attend the meeting.

Others were as passionate about their support for McBeth.

"I don't see how this is an issue, honestly, because he's a totally competent teacher and I don't see how that could have changed," said student Leandra Bourdot, 17.


From William to Lily

To the outside world, it appeared like William McBeth had grown up as a man's man. In his younger years, he was an athlete, a soldier and a surfer. In 1962, he was featured in a Sports Illustrated centerfold on "Bold Americans," the modern-day equivalent of extreme athletes.

William McBeth was married for 33 years and is the father of three children -- a son and two daughters. ( The Poor kids! -The Editor)

"My path was a very common path," McBeth said. "They're growing up male, but they're fighting with themselves. They're trying to disguise it, trying to do something to get rid of it. I engaged in macho activities like surfing. The damned thing is that you can't tell anyone. I got married and had children, raised them. It was a perfect family."

While the rest of the world was blind to McBeth's internal struggle, McBeth said she knew from the time she was 3 years old that she was different. But it wasn't until she was "free of those bonds of marriage and fatherhood," that she felt free to pursue her own happiness.

"I realized I was a person of worth who didn't have to question myself anymore," McBeth said. "I'm proud of who I am."

McBeth can understand why some have a hard time dealing with her decision. Her own children struggle with it. "At times, it's difficult," McBeth said. "You have to remember they're going through the same process everyone else has to, and I respect their right to believe whatever they want to believe." (How selfish can you get? -The Editor)

But McBeth said the concerns of the Eagleswood parents were misdirected. "They are projecting their thoughts into their children, their own insecurity and fears," McBeth said. "Children don't have those concerns. Their little minds are very curious and open to new ideas. It's not the children up there screaming about this."

McBeth said she was prepared to deal with any curiosity of her students, who have previously known her as a man.

"You don't discuss those things with a child in the classroom, no matter what it is … nothing [to] do with anything in your personal life," McBeth said. "You put that aside until the appropriate time. You simply say, 'I can discuss that with you at another time outside of the classroom.'"

Right now, McBeth is just waiting for the early morning call asking her to substitute teach and enjoying her new life as Lily.

"I don't really have to defend myself to other people. Their problem is not a problem for me," McBeth said. "I'm proud of who I am."

Image

Good grief - this story is worse than I thought.
:roll:

Mon Mar 06, 2006 6:09 pm

Sick.

I guess I'm incapable of understanding what that man/woman/thing
is motivated by and feels oppressed by and wants to express.
And he/she DEMANDS tolerance and thorough acceptance?????

Sorry S.O.O.L dude/dudette.

Stay AWAY from children!

Mon Mar 06, 2006 6:14 pm

"I don't really have to defend myself to other people. Their problem is not a problem for me," McBeth said


But he was quick enough to make his problem a problem for everyone else.

McBeth said. "I'm proud of who I am."


Yes, and so is Gary Glitter, and MJ.

These confused individuals dont need sex changes...........they need some serious psychiatric help.....and if that doesn't help.........lock them up because they are dangerous, unstable people....and a possible threat to society.