Off Topic Messages

Good People - Bad Deeds.

Mon Jan 09, 2006 8:53 pm

Image

The programme is on tonight, British Channel4 TV. The trailer was fascinating. Therefore I'll be re-inforcing my disbelief in a Biblical God at 8pm.

But wait a minute................. I may want to visit Israel sometime........

Tue Jan 17, 2006 11:43 am

Part two was on last night.

We would be furious if children were segregated into seperate political schools yet we allow them to be brainwashed in schools, concentrating on Judaism, Islam, Roman Catholicism and Presbytarianism etc.

An excellent point brought up in last nights programme by Richard Dawkins. He interviewed American Fundementalists and Rabbis and their responses were pathetic.

Absolutely Fascinating!

ALL children should be able to watch it.

I suppose many children indoctrinated into believing a particular religion as the "Gospel" truth will be quite confused when they are allowed to search the internet. They may become more enlightened than their parents would like.

Burn the computers :lol: The INTERNEXT (Global Knowledge) is upon us!

Tue Jan 17, 2006 8:15 pm

Here's a thought provoking link that pretty much sums up my views on Dawkins: http://beliefnet.com/story/86/story_8686.html

Tue Jan 17, 2006 9:28 pm

This made me laugh,

Dawkins is guilty of a very human fault: insisting that people who don’t agree with him are not just wrong but ignorant, stupid, three-headed, etc

There's a few on this board guilty of the same thing !

:wink:

Tue Jan 17, 2006 9:48 pm

Well don't forget its coming from THE Gregg Easterbrook...a named to be reckoned with :wink:

The Bible Belt is an easy target compared to the Ultra Orthodox Rabbis in Israel. THEY carry machine guns :lol:

The newest religion, SHOPPING, must be the fastest growing of all time. Even the Chinese are joining up by the billion!

Tue Jan 17, 2006 11:31 pm

Sounds like Dawkins is the anti-christ himself.

People should stay clear of anyone like him or they will certainly join him in the furnace when they die.

I don't know why anyone would want to live in eternity there. Especially when we DO have a choice.

jeff R

Wed Jan 18, 2006 12:10 am

I would encourage everyone to follow the link in the article on the late Fred Hoyle.

Maurice: When Dawkins is ready to play with the big boys (John Polkinghorne for example) let me know.

Wed Jan 18, 2006 1:40 am

Pete, you are funny, :lol: Dawkins IS the Big boy these days. Goodnight.

Wed Jan 18, 2006 7:21 am

Dawkins is a man educated beyond the capacity of his brain.

He draws simplistic conclusions based upon his inability to see past his own limitations. He credits religion with the misery of the world, yet fails to address the fact that religion in 10,000 years has never approached the mass slaughter and suffering imposed upon the world by atheists in the last 100 years alone.

He is awash in ignorance.......and too ignorant to realize it.

I never could take the man seriously as he rails against the "closed mindedness" of religion while demonstrating the exact trait he rails against in his close-minded materialistic humanism.

He derides those who believe in Deity by insisting that there is none.......thereby imbuing himself with Omniscience (since he must be all-knowing to have discovered this), Omnipotence (since, in order to draw that conclusion he must be All-Powerful to be enabled to exhaust all resources to draw this conclusion), and Omni-Presence (since he must have been able to search all the universe and all dimensionalities at once to draw that conclusion).

In short........he is a hypocrite. But alas.......too simplistic and superficial to realize this either.


I find him amusing. He is always good for a laugh :lol: :lol:

Wed Jan 18, 2006 9:27 am

You have to admit that he does look like a rather happy fellow!

Ok.... I'm off to listen to my How Great Thou Art CD! :D

JEFF d
Elvis fan

Wed Jan 18, 2006 9:34 am

Goodmorning Scatter. Thats why Richard Dawkins is having such an impact on the world. Usually nut-cases are dismissed in a word...or maybe two :lol:

Readers letters to our newspapers about him are also very entertaining. Even those from Professors :wink:

Image

Wed Jan 18, 2006 12:23 pm

Comedian/Amateur political analyst Bill Maher recently put forth the idea that we should rethink the idea that we automatically associate religious faith as a virtue when many people of faith are simply parroting an indoctrination they've received every day since they were born. It's an important idea I think. This doesn't mean an aetheist can't be subject to a similar indoctrination or that a person who has truly questioned and considered the alternatives can't come down on the side of faith. However, the equation between faith and virtue shouldn't be automatically one to one. I guess we know this on an instinctive level since we know people like terrorists or people who blow up an abortion clinic aren't exactly operating at full capacity. The thing that's important to get at is that a pronunciation of faith does not mean that the intellectual thought pattern is not deformed as in the cases stated above.

I think though that the thesis here is inherently flawed. The problem is that it is an extreme state of arrogance to declare there is no God because just as there is no definitive proof that God exists there is no definitive proof that God does not exist. You can't prove or disprove an abstract.

Even more you can't equate all the misery done in the world due to religion without a mention of all the good done by religion. Many people believe Pope John Paul II was instrumental in the end of the Cold War. Religious freedom was the origin point of the greatest democracy in the history of the world. Shortly after the Union began, who was it that stood up for the abolition of slavery? The Quakers. The movement failed at that time but it was a religious group that truly attested to the equality of all men. Look at groups like the Salvation Army and Catholic Charities whose sole existence is to help others. And while sometimes the help comes with a listening price tag, most of the time it doesn't. It's there because it is the right thing to do. And on a smaller scale, it leads to all sorts of individual acts of charity and kindness and helps people get through the difficulties of living. One of the reasons in the Muslim world that the fundamentalists have become so popular is because they are the ones providing the education. It's a compromised situation but no one else in many of the poorer areas offers the opportunity.

Then you have to consider all of the beautiful works or art and music that have been put created expressly because of religion. Their existence makes existence here on the mortal plain that much more palatable.

As has been pointed out, atheists and or Godless people have also wreaked all sorts of havoc on the world as well.

Now, there are many hard philosophical questions that are unanswered and that will remain unanswered. (The biggest for me is the concept of worship. It seems a very human conception to create a world simply to be worshipped. Of course that brings into question the whole nature of God. Is he, she, it or that much superior to us or simply a more advanced reflection of what we are? On the other hand, the central message of Christianity of forgiveness through faith could definitely be divinely inspired as it so far removed from what we've shown to be our normal instincts.) But it seems a mistake to sweeping generalizations of any kind.
Last edited by likethebike on Wed Jan 18, 2006 12:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Wed Jan 18, 2006 12:47 pm

Children as we know will believe just about anything we tell them.

So what do we tell them? The Truth as far as we know it, or a variety of stories based on superstition and mythology?

Science is subject to investigation all the time.

Religion is based on blind faith.

Just look around you with open eyes and mind, and you need quote no one.

Wed Jan 18, 2006 3:18 pm

Dawkins is nothing than one more person in the world trying to make money with incredible ideas that to me doesn´t worth a damn cent.

Wed Jan 18, 2006 4:13 pm

I think this man is dangerous and should keep his mouth shut.

Im not a religous person but believe that religon is a good thing.

The majority of people in this world, whether they are christians, muslims,hindus sikhs, jews etc are decent people who just want to have a normal non-violent life but there is a small minority of people, from all religons, who try and mess it up for everyone else.
Those are the evil ones and not the religons they follow.

Wed Jan 18, 2006 4:41 pm

Sean Ryan wrote:Those are the evil ones and not the religons they follow.


Exactly what I think.

Wed Jan 18, 2006 5:12 pm

Sean Ryan wrote:I think this man is dangerous and should keep his mouth shut.


Sean -
I have to disagree. Dawkins is entitled to express his opinion just like anyone else. What I want from Dawkins is for him to stick to his area of expertise, zoology/evolution. More importantly I want Dawkins to engage in real debate (which he doesn't), rather than his constant tearing down of fundamentalist straw men, which is an easy target. In my previous post I mentioned John Polkinghorne. Mr. Polkinghorne is both a physicist and a theologian. In other words a man of both science and religion. And he has a formidable reputation in both. In my view he is one of Britain's great intellectuals. I would love to see Richard Dawkins engage in debate with Mr. Polkinhorne, but Dawkins won't because his modus operandi is to pick easy targets and tear them down. Dawkins is also arrogant towards his fellow scientists who don't agree with his views.

On the one occasion I'm aware of that someone was able to pointedly challenge Dawkins he basically pled the 5th. Former Berkely Law Professor and neo-Darwinism critic Phillip Johnson attended a public appearance by Dawkins (sat right in front of him in the first row), and pointedly asked Dawkins about molecular biologist Michael Behe's book Darwins' Black Box, which vividly describes the irreducible complexity of molecular organisms, which in Behe's opinion indicates design. Dawkins response was basically to say that as a zoologist molecular biology was not his area of expertise, so he was not qualified to comment on it. Interesting answer considering that Dawkins books are full of his opinions on the workings of molecular biology, genes in particular.

Wed Jan 18, 2006 6:38 pm

Dawkins has written about Creationists attempting to engage him in debate so as to give THEM some standing :lol:

But long before Richard Dawkins there was a long history of the greatest human minds questioning accepted mythologies, wherever they originated.

An American Orthodox Rabbi said the greatest danger to his religion was not the terrorists in the Middle East but the American way of life. We all know what he meant.

Religions everywhere are losing out to the new age of Reason AND the Shopping Mall!

Check out a few Atheists: Douglas Adams, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Woody Allen, Lance Armstrong, Darren Aronofsky, Isaac Asimov, Peter William Atkins, David Attenborough, Iain M. Banks, Clive Barker, Dave Barry, Bill Bass, Ingmar Bergman, Björk, Lewis Black, Bill Blass, Jim Bohanan, Marlon Brando, Richard Branson, Berkeley Breathed, Bill Bryson, Peter Buck, Warren Buffett, George Carlin, John Carmack, Adam Carolla, John Carpenter, Asia Carrera, Fidel Castro, Dick Cavett, Noam Chomsky, Chumbawamba, Alexander Cockburn, Billy Connolly, Francis Crick, David Cronenberg, David Cross, Alan Cumming, Rodney Dangerfield, Richard Dawkins, Daniel Dennett, David Deutsch, Ani DiFranco, Micky Dolenz, Phil Donahue, Roger Ebert, Dean Edell, Greg Egan, Paul Ehrlich, Albert Einstein, Harlan Ellison, Brian Eno, Harvey Fierstein, Larry Flynt, Dave Foley, Jodie Foster, Kinky Friedman, Janeane Garofalo, Bill Gates, Bob Geldof, Ricky Gervais, Ira Glass, James Gleick, Seth Green, Harry Harrison, Robert Heinlein, Nat Hentoff, Katharine Hepburn, Christopher Hitchens, Douglas Hofstadter, Penn Jillette, Billy Joel, Angelina Jolie, Wendy Kaminer, Jonathan Katz, Diane Keaton, Margot Kidder, Neil Kinnock, Michael Kinsley, Ron Kuby, Milan Kundera, Richard Leakey, Bruce Lee, Tom Lehrer, Stanislaw Lem, Tom Leykis, James Lipton, H.P. Lovecraft, John Malkovich, Barry Manilow, Karl Marx, Todd McFarlane, Sir Ian McKellen, Arthur Miller, Frank Miller, Mike Mills, Marvin Minsky, Julianne Moore, Desmond Morris, Randy Newman, Mike Nichols, Jack Nicholson, Gary Numan, Bob Odenkirk, Patton Oswalt, Camille Paglia, Andy Partridge, Mark Pauline, Steven Pinker, Paula Poundstone, Terry Pratchett, James Randi, Ron Reagan Jr., Keanu Reeves, Rick Reynolds, Gene Roddenberry, Joe Rogan, Henry Rollins, Andy Rooney, Salman Rushdie, John Sayles, Captain Sensible, Robert Silverberg, Bob Simon, Steven Soderbergh, George Soros, Richard Stallman, Bruce Sterling, Howard Stern, J. Michael Straczynski, Julia Sweeney, Matthew Sweet, Annika Sörenstam, Teller, Studs Terkel, Tom Tomorrow, Linus Torvalds, Eddie Vedder, Paul Verhoeven, Gore Vidal, Kurt Vonnegut Jr., Sarah Vowell, James Watson, Steven Weinberg, Joss Whedon, Harland Williams, Ted Williams, Steve Wozniak, etc.

Thu Jan 19, 2006 5:39 am

MauriceinIreland wrote:Dawkins has written about Creationists attempting to engage him in debate so as to give THEM some standing :lol:

But long before Richard Dawkins there was a long history of the greatest human minds questioning accepted mythologies, wherever they originated.

An American Orthodox Rabbi said the greatest danger to his religion was not the terrorists in the Middle East but the American way of life. We all know what he meant.

Religions everywhere are losing out to the new age of Reason AND the Shopping Mall!

Check out a few Atheists: Douglas Adams, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Woody Allen, Lance Armstrong, Darren Aronofsky, Isaac Asimov, Peter William Atkins, David Attenborough, Iain M. Banks, Clive Barker, Dave Barry, Bill Bass, Ingmar Bergman, Björk, Lewis Black, Bill Blass, Jim Bohanan, Marlon Brando, Richard Branson, Berkeley Breathed, Bill Bryson, Peter Buck, Warren Buffett, George Carlin, John Carmack, Adam Carolla, John Carpenter, Asia Carrera, Fidel Castro, Dick Cavett, Noam Chomsky, Chumbawamba, Alexander Cockburn, Billy Connolly, Francis Crick, David Cronenberg, David Cross, Alan Cumming, Rodney Dangerfield, Richard Dawkins, Daniel Dennett, David Deutsch, Ani DiFranco, Micky Dolenz, Phil Donahue, Roger Ebert, Dean Edell, Greg Egan, Paul Ehrlich, Albert Einstein, Harlan Ellison, Brian Eno, Harvey Fierstein, Larry Flynt, Dave Foley, Jodie Foster, Kinky Friedman, Janeane Garofalo, Bill Gates, Bob Geldof, Ricky Gervais, Ira Glass, James Gleick, Seth Green, Harry Harrison, Robert Heinlein, Nat Hentoff, Katharine Hepburn, Christopher Hitchens, Douglas Hofstadter, Penn Jillette, Billy Joel, Angelina Jolie, Wendy Kaminer, Jonathan Katz, Diane Keaton, Margot Kidder, Neil Kinnock, Michael Kinsley, Ron Kuby, Milan Kundera, Richard Leakey, Bruce Lee, Tom Lehrer, Stanislaw Lem, Tom Leykis, James Lipton, H.P. Lovecraft, John Malkovich, Barry Manilow, Karl Marx, Todd McFarlane, Sir Ian McKellen, Arthur Miller, Frank Miller, Mike Mills, Marvin Minsky, Julianne Moore, Desmond Morris, Randy Newman, Mike Nichols, Jack Nicholson, Gary Numan, Bob Odenkirk, Patton Oswalt, Camille Paglia, Andy Partridge, Mark Pauline, Steven Pinker, Paula Poundstone, Terry Pratchett, James Randi, Ron Reagan Jr., Keanu Reeves, Rick Reynolds, Gene Roddenberry, Joe Rogan, Henry Rollins, Andy Rooney, Salman Rushdie, John Sayles, Captain Sensible, Robert Silverberg, Bob Simon, Steven Soderbergh, George Soros, Richard Stallman, Bruce Sterling, Howard Stern, J. Michael Straczynski, Julia Sweeney, Matthew Sweet, Annika Sörenstam, Teller, Studs Terkel, Tom Tomorrow, Linus Torvalds, Eddie Vedder, Paul Verhoeven, Gore Vidal, Kurt Vonnegut Jr., Sarah Vowell, James Watson, Steven Weinberg, Joss Whedon, Harland Williams, Ted Williams, Steve Wozniak, etc.


Maurice, my friend........do you really think that I cannot, off the top of my head, dwarf your list of atheists with men and women of faith whose accomplishments are just as impressive?? Yet that would prove nothing. There are good and evil men regardless of religious or irreligious affinity.

Of course, possibly we cannot compete with such luminaries as Margot Kidder, Bill Blass, and Angelina Jolie. You may want to consider leaving such flakes and imbeciles as these(along with a great deal more cited) off your list next time.......no need to prove my point for me :lol: :lol:

Thu Jan 19, 2006 7:28 am

Folks -
Maurice is wrong about Albert Einstein. While I can't claim Einstein as a theist, he was no atheist. His comments on atheism were just as negative as were his views on religion. Einstein was a deist with pantheistic overtones. Don't take my word or Maurice's on this. Do some research and it will become apparent that Einstein was a deist/pantheist.

Maurice also conveniently left off his list of atheists Joseph Stalinand Mao Ze Dung. How many murders were they responsible for?

Scatter is correct, there are good and evil people in both philosophies. My current favorite political writer is Christopher Hitchens (who is on Maurice's atheist list). Maurice tries to paint atheism as 'enlightened intellectualism' but it's no more enlightened or intellectual than theism or agnosticism.

Maurice you tried to pull this routine several months back, and I posted a lengthy list of scientists/intellectuals responsible for some of the greatest achievements in their respective fields who were also theists.

Thu Jan 19, 2006 9:59 am

Try a little harder Pete. I didn't make up the list including Einstein it's on the www. :lol: Anyway Dawkins dealt with Einsteins Atheism in his book.

Attempting to mislead people will not help your case. They will find this very interesting http://www.wonderfulatheistsofcfl.org/Quotes.htm

Once the seeds of doubt are sown in young thinking minds they will find out for themselves. That's what happened to all our young relatives...they all went to Christian schools (including our own children) but none...yes NONE. go to chapel or church on Sundays. Some of them would still say they are Christians, and some agnostic and some are Atheists. Few people actually bother to research the subject.

Our own 11 year old grand - daughter, a very bright young child, is already questioning her Christian religion. The weight of Science is taking it's toll on young minds.

As for wars they are caused by humans whether Religious nut cases or power mad Atheists. Nevertheless their armies are usually made up of very religious people, and you know it.

The word Atheist should really be replaced because I'm actually a believer...............in life. Mortal life.

Just take a long hard look at the unfortunates with a direct line to their special Almighty. Now there's an arrogance to marvel at :lol:

Thu Jan 19, 2006 2:53 pm

Dawkins takes a sledge-hammer to a nut.

But I thought this comment [which Maurice alludes to in his thread title] was pretty apt:

"Good men do good things; evil men do evil things; but religion makes good men do evil things"


Discuss.

Thu Jan 19, 2006 4:26 pm

ColinB wrote:Dawkins takes a sledge-hammer to a nut.

But I thought this comment [which Maurice alludes to in his thread title] was pretty apt:

"Good men do good things; evil men do evil things; but religion makes good men do evil things"


Discuss.


Colin, I would argue that atheism also makes good people do bad things.

Stalin was a ministry student before embracing atheism........and murdering millions.

Thu Jan 19, 2006 4:38 pm

Scatter wrote:
ColinB wrote:Dawkins takes a sledge-hammer to a nut.

But I thought this comment [which Maurice alludes to in his thread title] was pretty apt:

"Good men do good things; evil men do evil things; but religion makes good men do evil things"


Discuss.


Colin, I would argue that atheism also makes good people do bad things.

Stalin was a ministry student before embracing atheism........and murdering millions.


Well, yeah, but Stalin was only coincidentally an Atheist, surely ?

He would have had his purges nonetheless.

Thu Jan 19, 2006 4:41 pm

Religious or not religious there are good people that makes evil things.
For both sides.