Off Topic Messages

Tue Dec 20, 2005 7:45 pm

Graceland Gardener wrote:
Gregory Nolan Jr. wrote:Aside from comments from the fans here, I would still say the mass popularity of Kiss in that time period is a bit over-stated.


Anything over-stated about Elvis Presley only comes from "fans" too.


No, I'm trying foolishly thinking we can be objective here and discuss actual records that charted, and sold and leave our "fan hats" at home.

I do believe Elton John had more hits than Kiss in the '70s and outsold the band as well.

I can take or leave John, but let's leave his sexuality out of it. Once you go down that road, you might as well open yourself up to ridicule for being a Kiss fan.

It wouldn't be me but let's face it, Kiss gets a lot less respect than Elton John in popular culture. They're still seen as, well, "custome rockers," whether fair or not.

Most people could barely pick one Kiss song, save one if they were really hit. That's as good a measure as any.

Whatever one thinks of him (I personally have seen enough), John's songs are quite fondly remembered by many people even beyond his fans.

Tue Dec 20, 2005 8:56 pm

Graceland Gardener wrote:
drjohncrapenter wrote: Or greatest money-whoring band.


I'm having trouble finding Graceland Gardener's source for his quoting drjohncarpenter as saying this. I searched the threads in this board and didn't find it in any live archives.

Did he just make this up?

Tue Dec 20, 2005 9:22 pm

drjohncarpenter wrote:
Graceland Gardener wrote:You asserted I "made up" the story about Beatles suing EMI for 35 years of owed royalties.

You are really quite dense. I never asserted such a thing.

Learn the definitions of "quote" and "comments," revisit my post, and try to comprehend my statement about what you made up.

I'm not holding my breath.

DJC


G.G., I'm assuming you and the Doc aren't exchanging gifts this year. :lol:

Tue Dec 20, 2005 11:54 pm

Image

"If Elvis had Marshall amps, he'd be KISS.." Paul Stanley

Wed Dec 21, 2005 12:28 am

elvissessions.com wrote:
Graceland Gardener wrote:
drjohncrapenter wrote: Or greatest money-whoring band.


I'm having trouble finding Graceland Gardener's source for his quoting drjohncarpenter as saying this. I searched the threads in this board and didn't find it in any live archives.

Did he just make this up?


NO. I DID NOT MAKE THIS UP.

DOC ORIGINALLY POSTED THAT.


And I then was in reply mode and quoted him.

By the time I posted, he had edited.


There's a 5 minute difference in his post (where he did call KISS a money-whoring band)

and my post, which follows, which quoted his dumb comment.


DJC: Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 1:01 pm
GG: Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 1:06 pm


-- he had time to amend/change that post before a next post came along


Editing is fine but not like DJC who then acts so childishly aloof and cagey 'framing' me as to "making up that quote" because it doesn't show up anywhere in his post as recorded.

He did originally type money-whoring band.

- That's obviously what he thinks of KISS

(but of course Beatles and EPE aren't money-whoring at all, are they?)

Wed Dec 21, 2005 5:20 am

elvissessions.com wrote:I'm having trouble finding Graceland Gardener's source for his quoting drjohncarpenter as saying this. I searched the threads in this board and didn't find it in any live archives.

Did he just make this up?

Bingo -- the guy keeps getting more and more pathetic.

DJC

Wed Dec 21, 2005 5:50 am

I was a teenager in the 70's, and here in the States Elton John was the most commercially successful/popular recording artist 72-76. Led Zeppelin was the most popular rock band for the decade. I'm not a LZ fan, I did very much like EJ's music during this period. Near as I can tell I haven't been indoctrinated into gayness by listening to Elton John's music ....... but I do like to cook. And garden (for vegetables). :)

Wed Dec 21, 2005 6:53 am

About the quote: Sorry I asked :D

I brought it up only because I didn't see the "Last edited by ..." notations on the Doc's posts so I was trying to figure out whether this was a reference to earlier debate or something I was missing.

I've always steered clear of the Kiss debates and don't want to spoil my record now, so I'll bow out.

Wed Dec 21, 2005 6:59 am

elvissessions.com wrote:About the quote: Sorry I asked :D

I brought it up only because I didn't see the "Last edited by ..." notations on the Doc's posts so I was trying to figure out whether this was a reference to earlier debate or something I was missing.



FYI -

A "Last edited by..." notation only happens when someone has already posted after you.

Until someone does, you can post/edit/re-post and no notation occurs.

Doc had a 5 minute window to edit and repost
but too late - I had already read his FIRST post and quoted him - and focused on the stupid remark he made about money-whoring band.

He's still a liar tho, in pretending I forged the quote by him.

Wed Dec 21, 2005 7:25 am

Cool, I've learned something today.

Now I know I've got to make those changes real fast if I want to cover my tracks. :wink:

Thanks.

Wed Dec 21, 2005 9:04 am

I was there and he did say that, and then removed it.

Wed Dec 21, 2005 1:08 pm

elvissessions.com wrote:Now I know I've got to make those changes real fast ...

The speed of your reply or edit makes no difference if someone else chooses to falsify your comment.

DJC

Wed Dec 21, 2005 2:54 pm

Greg- Kiss did achieve a significant level of popularity with an immensely popular live show. Their records between 1976 and 1980 sold very well. In 1977, they and Elvis made history in the same year by having three certified platinums albums released in the same year (although in Elvis' case one of the albums- "The Wonderful World of Christmas"- was a rerelease). They also had decent success on the singles chart with five singles in the Top 20. Only one of these singles "Beth" made the Top Ten.

However, they were nowhere near as big a record seller as Elton John. John had 20 singles in the Top 20 during the decade only two of which missed the Top Ten. (Elvis had about a dozen with three Top Tens- "Burning Love", "Wonder of You", and "Don't Cry Daddy" although in Cashbox "Kentucky Rain", "Steamroller Blues" and "You Don't Have to Say You Love Me" also went Top 10. Very respectable.) John also had a staggering seven number one albums on the Billboard charts. Kiss only had nine Top 40 albums in the entire decade. (Elvis by the way charted more albums in the 1970s than any artist in any decade ever. His consistent popularity in the decade may have been subterranean at times but it was there.)

I think few people would argue though that even John had an impact comparable to Elvis in the 1950s or the Beatles in the 1960s. The fans who bought Led Zeppelin, Elton John, Kiss or Sly and the Family Stone did not intersect in the way that the fans who bought Chuck Berry and Elvis or the Beatles and the Stones in the 1960s. And on the singles front at the very least, John made the Top Ten with either lesser numbers and in the case of albums, bigger numbers but a smaller percentage of the audience than Elvis or the Beatles enjoyed in their prime.

That doesn't mean that these acts didn't have an impact. Many acts like the Gin Blossoms, the Smashing Pumpkins and Garth Brooks have confessed a fondness for Kiss. They had an audience and some of that audience went on to do important things.
Last edited by likethebike on Fri Dec 23, 2005 2:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

Wed Dec 21, 2005 7:55 pm

Thanks for the post, LTB. I recall that Kiss was indeed huge in a way as kid, but I had the sense (then) of them being "famous for being famous" as opposed to Elton John, who I actually heard on the radio thoughout the '70s until maybe the end, when disco took over. (And even then, he had a big '80 hit.) Back then, if it wasn't on the radio, (or so it seemed) it wasn't that big.

Of course, John was also on the cover of TIME in '75.
Image

But there were an awful lot of "Kiss fans" come to think of it, especially among young guys from 9 to say, 17, and a handful of girls. There's no doubt Kiss was making an impact, and your chart info backs some of that up, as well as reminding us of Elvis' continued '70's relevance, no matter what people seem to think today.

I recall when somone I knew got HBO (the cable channel)in '79, Kiss had a big live special.

I wasn't impressed but it was a big deal.

Thu Dec 22, 2005 6:22 am

Radio friendly doesn't mean a thing. Kiss was never that kind of band.

Now the number of weeks that Alive! stayed on the charts is alot more telling. Hang your hat on that!

I respect Elton John and if Kiss is bettered...I could pick worse company.

As it stands, I don't "rock" to Elton as I do a Kiss album. And I couldn't care less if radio embraced them. The continued worldwide support for the band show this fact as well.

Radio mean nothing to me...unless it is Satellite. :D

Thu Dec 22, 2005 8:21 pm

Again, I'm not a fan one way or another and one can only speak to how radio in the '70s did represent one's mass popularity. But as LTB and 'Sim point out, their albums did very well. FM was in its infancy back then anyway, so the point remains.

No, Elton's not much of a rocker but he did rockish stuff in the early '70s. His more emotional stuff is probably better remembered.

Personally, I've heard enough of him lately but still contend that his music "penetrated" (sorry) more homes than Kiss ever did. MOre people can sing, say, "Daniel", at the drop of a hat than any Kiss song they *might* know.

I agree that today's (music) radio (terrestrial) is mostly crap, sadly.
Last edited by Gregory Nolan Jr. on Thu Dec 22, 2005 11:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Thu Dec 22, 2005 9:59 pm

Daniel vs Rock and Roll All Nite....I beg to differ.

RRAN is one of the biggerst rock anthems EVER! Yet one cannot ignore Kiss image either. They changed ROCK stage shows forever. I put Elton with David Bowie. Interesting...weird...entertaining...but not really reproducible. That to me is the symbol of greatness.

Still, this is my opinion more then anything. I certainly am a fan of Elton John, but I am not crazy aout his stuff.

New Egland Rose is where I started looking the other way.

Thu Dec 22, 2005 10:58 pm

Kiss were and are and will always be famous for the makup and stage shows not the amount of records and singles sold....... check out the link they have a way to go before they catch up with Led Zeppelin and Elton John in certified record sales.
http://www.riaa.com/gp/bestsellers/topartists.asp

JEFF d
Elvis fan

Fri Dec 23, 2005 12:00 am

Indeed!

RIAA Top Artists

Totals are derived from cumulative album sales totals (U.S. only)


Artist
Certified Units (in Millions)

BEATLES, THE
168.5

PRESLEY, ELVIS
116.5

LED ZEPPELIN
107.5

BROOKS, GARTH
105.0

EAGLES
89.0

JOEL, BILLY
78.5

PINK FLOYD
73.5

STREISAND, BARBRA
70.5

JOHN, ELTON
69.0


AC/DC
66.0

AEROSMITH
65.5

ROLLING STONES, THE
64.5

SPRINGSTEEN, BRUCE
61.5

MADONNA
60.0

STRAIT, GEORGE
60.0

JACKSON, MICHAEL
59.5

CAREY, MARIAH
57.5

METALLICA
57.0

VAN HALEN
56.5

HOUSTON, WHITNEY
54.0

U2
50.5

ROGERS, KENNY
50.0

FLEETWOOD MAC
48.5

KENNY G
48.0

DIAMOND, NEIL
47.5

DION, CELINE
47.0

TWAIN, SHANIA
47.0

ALABAMA
46.0

SANTANA
42.0

JOURNEY
41.0

JACKSON, ALAN
39.5

CLAPTON, ERIC
39.0

PRINCE
39.0

SIMON & GARFUNKEL
38.5

SEGER, BOB AND THE SILVER BULLET BAND
38.0

CHICAGO
38.0

MC ENTIRE, REBA
36.5

GUNS 'N ROSES
36.5

2 PAC
36.5

FOREIGNER
36.5

BACKSTREET BOYS
36.0

DYLAN, BOB
35.0

STEWART, ROD
34.5

NELSON, WILLIE
34.0

DEF LEPPARD
33.0

COLLINS, PHIL
33.0

DENVER, JOHN
32.5

TAYLOR, JAMES
32.0

BON JOVI
32.0

QUEEN
31.5

SPEARS, BRITNEY
31.0

KELLY, R.
31.0

BOSTON
31.0

RONSTADT, LINDA
30.0

DOORS, THE
30.0

MATTHEWS, DAVE BAND
29.5

PEARL JAM
29.0

DIXIE CHICKS
28.5

OSBOURNE, OZZY
28.3

'N SYNC
28.0

PETTY, TOM & THE HEARTBREAKERS
28.0

BOLTON, MICHAEL
28.0

MELLENCAMP, JOHN
27.5

MANNHEIM STEAMROLLER
27.0

BOYZ II MEN
27.0

MC GRAW, TIM
26.0

LYNYRD SKYNYRD
26.0

BEE GEES
26.0

SINATRA, FRANK
25.5

JACKSON, JANET
25.0

EMINEM
25.0

NIRVANA
25.0

ZZ TOP
25.0

RUSH
24.5

MANILOW, BARRY
24.5

CARPENTERS, THE
24.5

MILLER, STEVE BAND
24.0

CREED
24.0

BROOKS & DUNN
24.0

VANDROSS, LUTHER
23.5

CARS, THE
23.5

EARTH, WIND & FIRE
23.5

HILL, FAITH
23.0

MOTLEY CRUE
22.5

GILL, VINCE
22.5

SADE
22.5

ENYA
22.0

CREEDENCE CLEARWATER REVIVAL
22.0

TLC
22.0

DOOBIE BROTHERS
22.0

BEASTIE BOYS
22.0

POLICE, THE
22.0

R.E.O. SPEEDWAGON
21.5

BUFFETT, JIMMY
21.5

GENESIS
21.5

JAY-Z
21.0

RICHIE, LIONEL
21.0

BEACH BOYS, THE
20.5

MEAT LOAF
20.5

MORISSETTE, ALANIS
20.5

HEART
20.5

HENDRIX, JIMI
20.5

WHO, THE
20.0

OUTKAST
20.0

HOOTIE & THE BLOWFISH
20.0

GREEN DAY
19.5

USHER
19.5

R.E.M.
19.5

KISS
19.0


BRAXTON, TONI
19.0

WILLIAMS, HANK, JR.
19.0

NELLY
19.0

KEITH, TOBY
19.0



As was mentioned in the other 7-page thread (see link above), any band that knew enough to dedicate a tribute to him on the night of his death can't be all bad. :wink:

Image

Fri Dec 23, 2005 12:27 am

genesim wrote:Daniel vs Rock and Roll All Nite....I beg to differ.


Genesim -
A more valid comparison would be Saturday Night's Alright for Fighting and Rock & Roll All Night.

Fri Dec 23, 2005 12:35 am

likethebike wrote:
However, they were nowhere near as big a record seller as Elton John. John had 20 singles in the Top 20 during the decade only two of which made the Top Ten.


LTB - I'm not certain, but I believe EJ had more than just 2 top 10 hits in the 70's.

Fri Dec 23, 2005 12:48 am

According to this, he had just two ('73 and '75):

http://www.superseventies.com/singles.html


Neat site, by the way.

Fri Dec 23, 2005 1:11 am

Greg -
I believe that site is referring to the 10 biggest records per year. If memory serves Elton's top 10 hits of the 70's include: Your Song; Daniel; Honky Cat; Crocodile Rock; Goodbye Yellow Brick Road; Bennie and the Jets; Don't Let The Sun Go Down On Me; The Bitch Is Back; Someone Saved My Life Tonight; Philadelphia Freedom; Don't Go Breakin' My Heart; Sorry Seems To Be The Hardest Word; Mama Can't Buy You Love. Rocket Man might have been a top 10 as well.
The man was the biggest thing in music 72-76.

Fri Dec 23, 2005 2:11 am

Sorry Pete. I skipped a few words. I meant only two of which did not make the Top Ten. I'll make the appropriate edit. John He had 18 Top Ten singles in the 1970s.

I've always been a little clueless on the mass of Elton John's popularity maybe at least in the 1970s, it was a you had to be there thing. But I've always found him solid. He has a way with a melody, can sing a little bit and has written and performed many good songs but I can't see how he became the biggest thing at any one time. I can see him being popular (a way with a melody is a very important thing) but I can't see THAT popular. Maybe his stage shows had something to do with it.

Fri Dec 23, 2005 4:58 am

Gregory Nolan Jr. wrote:Indeed!
As was mentioned in the other 7-page thread (see link above), any band that knew enough to dedicate a tribute to him on the night of his death can't be all bad. :wink:

Image


True, and Aerosmith stopped their show as well. Joe Perry is a great fan. Still, I'm amazed that Kiss have only been certified with 19m US sales!!!! Shockingly low!!!