Off Topic Messages

What a Sick Society (part 1)

Wed Nov 09, 2005 11:30 pm

Sorry to be depressing but...:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9978551/

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepubli ... cue09.html

And what do the bums look like?

Surprise. :roll:

Image
"Jannelle Butler, 19, and Matthew Gray, 18, are accused of a litany of crimes related to sexual assault and prostitution."

Re: What a Sick Society (part 1)

Thu Nov 10, 2005 3:50 am

Gregory Nolan Jr. wrote:And what do the bums look like?

Surprise. :roll:

Errr.... meaning what, exactly?

Eileen

Re: What a Sick Society (part 1)

Thu Nov 10, 2005 6:55 am

Eileen wrote:Errr.... meaning what, exactly?


Nobody knows.

Thu Nov 10, 2005 11:18 am

If you look around you can also find sexual crimes done by priests, lawyers, judges, the president. O sorry, the last one of course did not have sex with Monica! :wink:

Thu Nov 10, 2005 6:13 pm

Luuk wrote:If you look around you can also find sexual crimes done by priests, lawyers, judges, the president. O sorry, the last one of course did not have sex with Monica! :wink:


The quote is "sexual relations" and that makes all the difference. Give that man a cigar!

Geoff :wink:

Re: What a Sick Society (part 1)

Thu Nov 10, 2005 6:28 pm

Eileen wrote:
Gregory Nolan Jr. wrote:And what do the bums look like?

Surprise. :roll:

Errr.... meaning what, exactly?

Eileen



I'm as liberally inclined as the next guy, but when I see a
duo like this walking my neighborhood, I'll make a mental note.

And let me guess: you don't want them put away for life...?


It's naive to think that we can't "play the odds" on who's
going to mug us.

And Luuk, I do watch out also for "priests, lawyers, judges, (and) the president." People are way to lax about what is lurking out there-
in the US anyway. But some groups (and classes) are more likely
to commit sexual or assault crimes, don't you think?

Stats don't lie - or put the neighbor's daughter
into sexual slavery, for sale via internet.


Not very P.C. but a conclusion I've come around to. We owe it
to all victims of abuse to stop making excuses for "the underprivileged"
who commit these acts. And that goes for the occasional rich
bastard, like that NY journalist who faked being a firefighter
and abused a woman in her apartment for hours recently.

They should never again see the light of
day, so to speak.

:shock: Discuss.
Last edited by Gregory Nolan Jr. on Thu Nov 10, 2005 6:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Thu Nov 10, 2005 6:35 pm

The overused and meaningless 'PC' should be verboten from conversation purporting to be understandable.

I'm just not following you.

Eileen

Thu Nov 10, 2005 6:39 pm

Read all of what I wrote and may have edited while you posted.

I've heard that tale before, that "PC" should be retired. You first! :lol:

"PC" is short hand for not being able to ever mention one's race or class.
No cop can work without taking heed of such descriptions and trends.

To read some newspapers in the USA, you'll never learn that, for
instance the "gentleman" that starting stabbing tourists across from
the White House last week in Lafayette Park (3 were hospitalized)
was

(a) African-American (Black)
(b) homeless.

I think it's human nature to take heed that most vagrants, in say, D.C.
at least are both and also may have a mental and substance
problem to boot.

Excuse me while I cross the street to get away from such a fellow.

Thu Nov 10, 2005 7:10 pm

US Department of Justice, Bureau of Justice Statistics, most recent available

Rape/Sexual assault multiple-offender cases 2003

Number of victimizations 29,500

Percent offenders all white: 57.3
Percent offenders all black: 21.0
Percent offenders all other: 21.6
Percent offenders mixed races: 0.0 - fewer than ten
Percent not known/not available 0.0 - fewer than ten

=============
US Department of Justice, Bureau of Justice Statistics

Sex Offenses and Offenders

Draws on more than two dozen statistical datasets maintained by the Bureau of Justice Statistics and on data from the Uniform Crime Reporting (UCR) Program of the FBI. Findings include the following:

- Four datasets (the FBI's UCR arrests, State felony court convictions, prison admissions, and the National Crime Victimization Survey) all point to a sex offender who is older than other violent offenders, generally in his early 30's, and more likely to be white than other violent offenders.


Eileen

Thu Nov 10, 2005 7:38 pm

Eileen wrote:US Department of Justice, Bureau of Justice Statistics, most recent available

Rape/Sexual assault multiple-offender cases 2003

Number of victimizations 29,500

Percent offenders all white: 57.3
Percent offenders all black: 21.0
Percent offenders all other: 21.6
Percent offenders mixed races: 0.0 - fewer than ten
Percent not known/not available 0.0 - fewer than ten


I'm not sure if that was intended to contradict the point made by Greg, but it only does in part. Yes, offences are more likely to be committed by whites, but that's to be expected given that the majority of Americans are still white. It's more revealing to look at the stats against the ethnic breakdown of the USA. In 2004, 12.2% of Americans were black, yet 21.0% of offenders in your stats were black. In 2004, 75.6% of Americans were white, yet only 57.3% of offenders were white.
Overall, 42.6% of offences were committed by non-whites, who make up only 24.4% of the population. So yes, statistically, a non-white person is more likely to commit that crime.

Thu Nov 10, 2005 7:44 pm

It only makes sense that there are more white offenders in the U.S., since there are more white people in the U.S. Does it make sense, however to say (Al Sharpton for example) that there is a disproportionate number of blacks incarcerated simply because they make up a smaller number? What is disproportionate if they've committed the crime?

Blacks make up about 12% of the 2000 U.S. population, but currently have 21% of the total of U.S. convicts serving time for rape/sexual assault. If they've done the crime, they must do the time...regardless of PC BS.


Year 2000 U.S. Census Data

White - 216,930,975

African American - 36,419,434

Alaska - Native - 4,119,301

Asian - 11,898,828

Pacific Islander - 874,414

Other Race - 18,521,486

Thu Nov 10, 2005 7:45 pm

TJ, glad to know your math matches mine!

Thu Nov 10, 2005 8:01 pm

Yes I do understand that there are various groups who commit crimes out of proportion to their percent of the population - not just by race, but also by income, by age, and by gender. Gender is by far the largest disparity.

Regardless, all I can guess from Greg's emphasis (since it still isn't clear to me), is that I'm supposed to feel there has been some breakout of white female/black male couples around USA keeping sex slaves. That's simply not true. And most sex crimes against whites are not committed by blacks, even if black offenders are over-represented as compared to their percent of the population.

If Greg is referencing the relative gruesomeness of this crime, rather than the sex offense aspect, the most gruesome crimes - long-term captivities, torture cases, serial killers - the vast majority of those are committed by white men. In fact blacks are under-represented as compared to their percent of the population in that arena.

Eileen

Thu Nov 10, 2005 8:01 pm

I know it's an uncomfortable topic but thanks to TJ and Eagle
for point out these facts. And no, we're not ready to don our klan
hats or go attend a lynching. And I think I do think poverty and
disenfranchisement is a big part of creating a breeding ground
for crime. I'd love to see our country do a better job on poverty.

That said, it seems impossible (save for the semi-anonymous forum
like this) to point out that some folks have reasons to fear or
at least watch out for some demographic groups.


Crime is disportionately affecting the black community. Which
is another way of saying, as Jesse Jackson and Chris Rock have
subtly and unsubtly pointed out, you do have to "watch your back" because
of this ..."over-representation." That daughter runs away into
"the wrong neighborhood" and "sheesh"!! :shock:

They called it "white flight" when white moved away from minorites in
the '50s. I wonder how much of that was a function of higher crime
rates associated even then with Blacks (and poorer schools) rather
than pure racism as so often lampooned on shows like "All In the Family"?

It's more comforting to assume racism is merely a guy sitting
there using the "n" word and saying he doesn't want to live near
blacks. Is it conceivable that some of it is based on a perception..
(reality?) of higher crime...?
Last edited by Gregory Nolan Jr. on Thu Nov 10, 2005 8:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Thu Nov 10, 2005 8:06 pm

Greg -

You wrote:
...(save for the semi-anonymous forum
like this)...


Semi anonymous ?

You mean half the posters here know who I am ?

Help !

Thu Nov 10, 2005 8:07 pm

Eileen, I wasn't commenting on the bi-racial nature of it. I was mentioning
that we are too shy to "notice" that blacks do disproportionately represent
their sector, so to speak in violent crimes.

I'm obviously fed up (see the title) with the gruesomeness of the crimes
and agree there's not often a rhyme or reason. But a heck of a lot of
garden variety violent crime in the USA is coming from one area.

We tip-toe around black criminality...just as we are probably too
soft on corporate white collar crime. Both will knife you but on
a practical level, one is more tangible...

******************************
Likewise, France is grappling with a huge, unassimilated, disenchanted
Muslim youth that is now violently burning the country.

Early on, I noticed pains were taken not to mention their Muslim
background....and why is that?

I know it's complicated, but let's be frank with facts!
Last edited by Gregory Nolan Jr. on Thu Nov 10, 2005 8:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Thu Nov 10, 2005 8:08 pm

Eileen wrote:
all I can guess from Greg's emphasis (since it still isn't clear to me), is that I'm supposed to feel there has been some breakout of white female/black male couples around USA keeping sex slaves.


I didn't infer Greg's meaning as such...I believed he was hinting that the pair looked like a couple of unsavory dirtbags, regardless of their race.

They are.

Thu Nov 10, 2005 8:09 pm

That's it, Eagle. That was my main point.

That dirtbag (" I Might mug you" / " I may not be up to any good")
look is all too common across the races.

Hell, that's the style, nearly about..! That's America, 2005! :roll:
Last edited by Gregory Nolan Jr. on Thu Nov 10, 2005 8:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Thu Nov 10, 2005 8:20 pm

EagleUSA wrote:I didn't infer Greg's meaning as such...I believed he was hinting that the pair looked like a couple of unsavory dirtbags, regardless of their race.

Gregory Nolan Jr. wrote:That's it, Eag!

That dirtbag (" I Might mug you" / " I may not be up to any good")
look is all too common across the races.

Well Greg, you certainly could have answered me initially by saying you just thought these two looked like a couple of dirtbags. How that requires a page of messages is beyond me.

Eileen

Thu Nov 10, 2005 8:23 pm

What? And there's nothing more to discuss about criminality in the
US? We shouldn't discuss the "outrage of the week" ?

Where's the liberal sense of outrage about violent crime? I bleed
for the weak and the poor and downtrodden like the rest of most
liberals, but unlike too many, we are don't feel outrage about
the victims of crime and too often don't allow a hearing to
the outrage generated by
criminals that roam out streets, on a cycle in and out of prison,
not a few times by a system that doesn't care to throw away the key.

And are you immune from taking
note of race as you walk down the street? I'd say one is disarming
themselves not to do so in some situations.

I 'm glad to have opened up the conversation. Too many feel
this subject is inherently out of bounds.

TJ's stats mean something in the real world.
Last edited by Gregory Nolan Jr. on Sat Nov 12, 2005 7:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Thu Nov 10, 2005 8:26 pm

Gregory Nolan Jr. wrote:Eileen, I wasn't commenting on the bi-racial nature of it. I was mentioning that we are too shy to "notice" that blacks do disproportionately represent their sector, so to speak in violent crimes.

To quote a recent LTB post - horse manure! Local news across the nation isn't shy about noticing this at all, and multiple studies have found they prominently over-report crimes by blacks, particularly in lead stories where they can flash 'dirtbag' black offender mugshots. And people on this website certainly aren't shy about discussing any perceived negative quality of any minority group.

Eileen

Thu Nov 10, 2005 8:37 pm

You can call it "horse manure" all you want, but I'm observing this very fact and I follow liberal sites (like FAIR) that critique the media's obvious
corporate bias on some issues. But one way these reporters can stay
clear to their "liberal" pretensions is to make pains to "not offend"
anyone.

I've got an idea. Don't commit the crime and you won't be on TV.

The hand-wringing must be over the suspect / criminal, not the broadcasting of the guy's mug.

He's usually got a jacket over it
anyway.

And besides, consider it a public service: we need to know what,say,
a rapist on the loose looks like! It's absurd when they find it so minor
to the description! Some sources even find it incidental to report
that the criminal was committed by an illegal alien ("undocumented
worker"!)...That's sort of important, no? :D

That White House stabber story is true. I had to flip through a couple
of stories before I got the low-down on the suspect.

And I do think this forum is fine to discuss the fact. It's not the only place,
but why not discuss it, short of openly making racist statements?

P.S. Local news in the USA (say at 10 pm and 11pm) is truly depressing
(and also victim to "it if bleeds, it leads") but I do see it as "news."
I personally prefer the newspaper. I'd rather flip through the headlines
of the latest rape, mugging, etc. then always have the gory details.

But you can bet I pay attention to the neighborhood, the randomness,
and the entire situation.
Last edited by Gregory Nolan Jr. on Sat Nov 12, 2005 7:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Thu Nov 10, 2005 8:41 pm

Gregory Nolan Jr. wrote:What? And there's nothing more to discuss about criminality in the US? We shouldn't discuss the "outrage of the week" ?

Sure, go ahead, discuss away, it's a horrifying crime and indeed deserving of outrage. But that's another issue. Your initial post *commented* on the photos and implied the photos meant something. I asked what you meant by that, which spurred numerous posts about being PC and homeless and mentally ill and disproportionate blahblahblah, and now suddenly after all that typing it's, well, they just looked like dirtbags, that's all. If I'm supposed to believe that then it's reasonable to note the long and roundabout way it took to get there. I'm not some empty headed goose to be derailed by a bunch of side-winding.

At least, not outside the 'demos' thread.

Eileen

Thu Nov 10, 2005 8:43 pm

I didn't say I wouldn't discuss a bunch of (related) topics. And if
you read the first post, it was a footnote of sorts, on the order of
And by the way..." My main outrage is on the crime. But I also
wanted to discuss criminality.

The forum by definition is rather free-wheeling / side-"winding."

I also didn't mean to make it all my comments.
So do chime in, folks.
Last edited by Gregory Nolan Jr. on Thu Nov 10, 2005 8:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Thu Nov 10, 2005 8:51 pm

Greg wrote:
So do chime in, folks.


No way, dude.... Eileen scares the hell out of me!

You're on yer own. :D